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An Opinion Thread: Skills A is a Trap?

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Glyph

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« Reply #15 on: <09-02-15/2302:18> »
The Priority System requires you to do just that, prioritize.  Taking A in something means "I consider this to be the most important area of my character, the one that requires the most of my limited pool of starting resources."  Taking A in something also means taking lower than that in everything else, and by the time you get to E you'll be feeling the pinch.  So A priority in skills is a trap, if there is anything else that does more for the character as an A Priority.  So you want to ask yourself "Do I need all of these skills?  Will I actually use all of these skills?"

The book has an example of resources: A as a trap option.  For a decker or a street samurai, resources: A is very useful.  But for a technomancer?  The character was buying things like 10 fake SINs, a deluxe DocWagon contract, an expensive SUV he didn't even know how to drive, etc.  Obviously, that character didn't need that much in resources, and obviously, the character paid for it in other areas.  The player probably had a lot of fun spending all of that money, though.  That's probably why skills:A is taken when it is not necessary, too - it feels lavish.  Suboptimal isn't always bad, though.  If you can take a high Priority for something you enjoy but don't necessarily need, and still be able to get the character you want with your remaining resources, more power to you.  But if you don't get the character you want, you might want to look at getting something more cost-effective for Priority: A.

zarzak

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« Reply #16 on: <09-03-15/0013:19> »
I've never seen a character of any core archetype that would benefit from Skills A over something else in the A priority.  In fact, I don't believe any, with the possible exception of decker, would even want it at a B priority.  The opportunity cost is just too high.

A jack of all trades or mundane B&E specialist might want skills A, but for those you'd need to ask yourself:
1) Why am I playing a jack of all trades in a game about specialized character roles and teamwork (the answer here is usually a lack of system understanding)
2) Do I really want to be a mundane B&E specialist as opposed to anything else (sometimes the answer here is yes due to some specific character concept)

I'd argue that in 90-95% (maybe more) of all build skills A is a 'trap', in that much better options exist.  In fact, I'd argue that in 80-90% of all builds even Skills B is a a 'trap', in that more optimal options exist ... even if we use Sum-to-Ten.

This of course doesn't take into account an expert player with high system mastery who is specifically choosing a high skills priority, knowing full well what the sacrifices are.  This assumes a 'normal' player who is just trying to build a cool character for their game.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #17 on: <09-03-15/0103:08> »
1) Why am I playing a jack of all trades in a game about specialized character roles and teamwork (the answer here is usually a lack of system understanding)

There are an awful lot of people out there that if you don't have a skill, they'll constantly throw you (without any teammate that possesses it) into situations that don't require it under the guise of "challenge".
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #18 on: <09-03-15/0644:17> »
1) Why am I playing a jack of all trades in a game about specialized character roles and teamwork (the answer here is usually a lack of system understanding)

There are an awful lot of people out there that if you don't have a skill, they'll constantly throw you (without any teammate that possesses it) into situations that don't require it under the guise of "challenge".
That's an OOC table issue beyond the scope of the rules to solve.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Novocrane

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« Reply #19 on: <09-03-15/0657:20> »
Quote
1) Why am I playing a jack of all trades in a game about specialized character roles and teamwork (the answer here is usually a lack of system understanding)
Not every group supports the idea that team roles should be uber specialised and unique to each PC. Sometimes redundancy isn't anathema. Characterisation, fun, and all that other good stuff can occur while someone else is playing your flavour of archetype - and for the most part it also means that more people can help out with teamwork tests.

Kincaid

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« Reply #20 on: <09-03-15/0821:56> »
1) Why am I playing a jack of all trades in a game about specialized character roles and teamwork (the answer here is usually a lack of system understanding)

At the risk of sounding immodest, I like to think that I have a decent level of system mastery and I disagree with this assessment.  Obviously the, "because that's what I find appealing" reason trumps just about everything else, but that isn't related to mechanics.  A JoaT character can not only cover a team's blindspots in a pinch (and a great many shadowruns have their "make this one Hardware roll" moments), but s/he can make the other members of the team better at their specializations.  Back in 4e D&D, I played a lot of Warlords.  Warlords didn't really get their own spotlight too often, but they were amazing at shining spotlights on other characters in the party (they were also pretty broken, but that's another issue).  A JoaT character is somewhat similar.  The basement for a group's performance is higher, even if the JoaT's ceiling is lower than most of the other character's ceilings in their own niche.  A JoaT character doesn't get the "holy $h!t" moment that the mage might, but he gets a lot of, "Man, I'm glad we took him along" comments in the after action report.
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Marcus

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« Reply #21 on: <09-03-15/0917:10> »
I'm not sure I follow you fully Kincaid. Are you saying that Jack of All trades is a role that should be added to the always on a run list? Are you saying support concepts (like warlord) are a necessary role?  Are you saying that SR isn't about specialization and team work?
« Last Edit: <09-03-15/1031:40> by Marcus »
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Facemage

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« Reply #22 on: <09-03-15/0958:12> »
I think that a Basic shadowrun team have 4-5 runners (mage, face, decker/technomancer, adept/sam and maybe rigger). If you have 4 players and each plays one role => you do not need skill A. But If you have only 2-3 players, one has to cover 2 roles => skill B is not maybe enough to cover all needed basic skills. A classic example is face/mysad:
B: Skills, A: Magic
Conjuring skill group 5
Spellcasting: 6
Counterspelling: 6
Pistols: 6 (+2 semiautomatics)
Con: 6
Negotiation: 6
Etiquette: 1
Intimidation: 2
Sneaking: 6
Perception: 6
Impersonation: 0

This character has several weaknesses in his face skills. It might be a catastrophe if the guard notices that you cannot imitate the other guard behind the physical mask...

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #23 on: <09-03-15/1015:51> »
1) Why am I playing a jack of all trades in a game about specialized character roles and teamwork (the answer here is usually a lack of system understanding)

There are an awful lot of people out there that if you don't have a skill, they'll constantly throw you (without any teammate that possesses it) into situations that don't require it under the guise of "challenge".
That's an OOC table issue beyond the scope of the rules to solve.

And an issue with these boards, as I've seen several here that make the claim that you're expecting a "cake walk" for expecting one's character's abilities to be showcased rather than being prodded at in areas the character doesn't have the skill.
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ZeldaBravo

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« Reply #24 on: <09-03-15/1020:05> »
I'm not sure I follow you fully Kincaid. Are you saying that Jack of All trades is a role that should be added to the always on a run list? Are you saying support concepts (like wardlord) are a necessary role?  Are you saying that SR isn't about specialization and team work?
The point was that JoaT gives a team more options and can be a substitute or a support for a specialist.

I want to add that being a JaoT doesn't mean that you do not have a speciality!
*I have problems with clarifying my point in English, so sometimes I might sound stupid or rude.*

Marcus

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« Reply #25 on: <09-03-15/1039:00> »

I want to add that being a JaoT doesn't mean that you do not have a speciality!

An interesting point.
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Kincaid

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« Reply #26 on: <09-03-15/1052:52> »
I'm not sure I follow you fully Kincaid. Are you saying that Jack of All trades is a role that should be added to the always on a run list? Are you saying support concepts (like wardlord) are a necessary role?  Are you saying that SR isn't about specialization and team work?
The point was that JoaT gives a team more options and can be a substitute or a support for a specialist.

I want to add that being a JaoT doesn't mean that you do not have a speciality!

ZB beat me to it.  A team of specialists can work, certainly, but it results in pretty siloed skillsets.  As long as you're running up against challenges to those specific skillsets, you're fine.  If challenges start to stray outside of those things, then the group can get stuck.  JoaT characters don't become "I Win" buttons, but they help prevent teams from getting stuck. 
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #27 on: <09-03-15/1107:51> »
1) Why am I playing a jack of all trades in a game about specialized character roles and teamwork (the answer here is usually a lack of system understanding)

There are an awful lot of people out there that if you don't have a skill, they'll constantly throw you (without any teammate that possesses it) into situations that don't require it under the guise of "challenge".

Well yes. It's like negative qualities... sometimes, you need to press your team in their weakpoints, not their strong points. It can be as simple as "You're all running from security and you have to jump from one roof to another ... how's your Athletics?" to having a cop rap on the RIggervan's window and ask her why she's there (Charisma 1 and no Con you say? Oh dear.) ... While "SPECIALIZE!" is one style, there's also a style where "Basic competency in core abilities" comes up, or one where, sometimes, you don't have certain team members around and have to adapt.

And boy howdy, will you be thanking your team's skillmonkey at that stage.

Skills A works for certain charcter types, like the Mercenary, Weapons Specialist, or Face. It isn't for everyone, obviously, but you'll find that you can have quite respectable characters who don't require the A for something else (Cash for Riggers/Deckers, Magic for magicians, Attributes for a PhysAd or Samurai, etc.)

It's, intentionally, not a one-size-fits-all solution.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #28 on: <09-03-15/1127:49> »
This character has several weaknesses in his face skills. It might be a catastrophe if the guard notices that you cannot imitate the other guard behind the physical mask...
Default skill roll and/or Influence.

IMO the biggest weakness is taking the whole Conjuring Group  ;D
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Facemage

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« Reply #29 on: <09-03-15/1155:00> »
But you have 5 skill points. The only valid groups are influence and conjuring. Because of action economy I think that there is no room for leadership tests => it is total waste. Banishing is at least sometimes useful.

Your default is only 7 dices, which is really not much... I think that the total fail probability is too high.