Fifth edition? That's as crazy as coming out with a new 5th Edition of D&D so soon after... Oh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
I doubt it. I mean, hell, we're barely into metaplot storylines and how many more PDFs CGL can pump out. :) SOTA'73 is pretty good.
Fifth edition? That's as crazy as coming out with a new 5th Edition of D&D so soon after... Oh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
I doubt it. I mean, hell, we're barely into metaplot storylines and how many more PDFs CGL can pump out. :) SOTA'73 is pretty good.
I was hoping that a 5th Edition would return to the old Priority System for character creation, considering that the SR players I know won't touch 4e because of the PB system.
I do know that Runner's Companion had a PS system in it, but without any copies to be had (unless I wanted to spend $100 on eBay/amazon, which I don't), I was hoping that 8 years would be time for a new edition.
no, the rigger book isn't out yet. A rigger book always heralds the new edition.This is an RBB (http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Runners-Black-Book_Cover.jpg), however. ;D
William :P
Or you can buy the PDF. (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_187_84&products_id=2127)
Or you can buy the PDF. (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_187_84&products_id=2127)
PDFs are nice, but I prefer hardcopy/dead tree copy.
Fifth edition? That's as crazy as coming out with a new 5th Edition of D&D so soon after... Oh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
I doubt it. I mean, hell, we're barely into metaplot storylines and how many more PDFs CGL can pump out. :) SOTA'73 is pretty good.
I was hoping that a 5th Edition would return to the old Priority System for character creation, considering that the SR players I know won't touch 4e because of the PB system.
I do know that Runner's Companion had a PS system in it, but without any copies to be had (unless I wanted to spend $100 on eBay/amazon, which I don't), I was hoping that 8 years would be time for a new edition.
I know, that they are at least talking and thinking about 5th ed. I know, because I was asked to contribute some thoughts and suggestions about what needs to be changed.Did you say a lack of novels? Please say you said a lack of novels!!!
I'm pretty sure he said "Too much CanRay"... ;)I know, that they are at least talking and thinking about 5th ed. I know, because I was asked to contribute some thoughts and suggestions about what needs to be changed.Did you say a lack of novels? Please say you said a lack of novels!!!
I know, that they are at least talking and thinking about 5th ed. I know, because I was asked to contribute some thoughts and suggestions about what needs to be changed.
I'm pretty sure he said "Too much CanRay"... ;)I know, that they are at least talking and thinking about 5th ed. I know, because I was asked to contribute some thoughts and suggestions about what needs to be changed.Did you say a lack of novels? Please say you said a lack of novels!!!
You have 5 priorities in old SR you use on Magic, Race, Money, Attributes and skills.
They where named A, B, C, D & E.
The better a priority you give to a category the higher values you would get.
To be a mage you had to use your A on magic. Aspected magician and Adept where a B. Mundanes used E on magic.
Elf where a C, Human E and i think the other metatypes where D.
I think A on money gave you 1.000.000 nuyen and E gave you 5.000. The others spread out between those extreemes.
Hope that explains it enough :D
Rasmus
*Gear Nuyen/Total Force Points for spells
Priority Magic Attributes Skills Tech* Race 0 None 15 Points 17 Points 100/5 Human 1 None 17 Points 20 Points 1,000/10 Human 2 None 20 Points 24 Points 20,000/20 Human 3 If Metahuman 24 Points 30 Points 400,000/50 Human 4 Yes 30 Points 40 Points 1,000,000- Metahuman
*Gear Nuyen/Total Force Points for spells
Priority Race Magic Attributes Skill Resources* A Metahuman Human Magician 30 Points 40 Points 1,000,000¥/50 B Human Human Adept/Metahuman Magicion 24 Points 30 Points 400,000¥/35 C Human Metahuman Adept 20 Points 24 Points 90,000¥/25 D Human - 17 Points 20 Points 5,000¥/15 E Human - 15 Points 17 Points 500¥/5
Priority Race Magic Attributes Skill Resources A - Full Magician 30 50 1,000,000¥ B - Adept/Aspected Magician 27 40 400,000¥ C Troll/Elf - 24 34 90,000¥ D Dwarf/Ork - 21 30 20,000¥ E Human - 18 27 5,000¥
*Skill points/Max # of Skill Groups
Priority Heritage Talent Attributes Skills* Resources/Contacts A Any metatype Magician or Technomancer 20 38/2 250,000¥/8 B Any metatype Adept, Magician or Technomancer 17 30/2 140,000¥/6 C Human, Dwarf or Ork Adept or Technomancer 15 24/1 70,000¥/4 D Human Adept or Technomancer 13 20/1 15,000¥/3 E Human Mundane 18 18/0 5,000¥/2
SR5D20 . . *runs*And people say I'm the one that's like Slamm-0!.
First Edition:Quote from: Shadowrun 7101, p. 53*Gear Nuyen/Total Force Points for spells
Priority Magic Attributes Skills Tech* Race 0 None 15 Points 17 Points 100/5 Human 1 None 17 Points 20 Points 1,000/10 Human 2 None 20 Points 24 Points 20,000/20 Human 3 If Metahuman 24 Points 30 Points 400,000/50 Human 4 Yes 30 Points 40 Points 1,000,000- Metahuman
Second Edition:Quote from: SR2, p. 47*Gear Nuyen/Total Force Points for spells
Priority Race Magic Attributes Skill Resources* A Metahuman Human Magician 30 Points 40 Points 1,000,000¥/50 B Human Human Adept/Metahuman Magicion 24 Points 30 Points 400,000¥/35 C Human Metahuman Adept 20 Points 24 Points 90,000¥/25 D Human - 17 Points 20 Points 5,000¥/15 E Human - 15 Points 17 Points 500¥/5
Third Edition:Quote from: SR3, p. 54
Priority Race Magic Attributes Skill Resources A - Full Magician 30 50 1,000,000¥ B - Adept/Aspected Magician 27 40 400,000¥ C Troll/Elf - 24 34 90,000¥ D Dwarf/Ork - 21 30 20,000¥ E Human - 18 27 5,000¥
Fourth Edition:Quote from: Runner's Companion, p. 38*Skill points/Max # of Skill Groups
Priority Heritage Talent Attributes Skills* Resources/Contacts A Any metatype Magician or Technomancer 20 38/2 250,000¥/8 B Any metatype Adept, Magician or Technomancer 17 30/2 140,000¥/6 C Human, Dwarf or Ork Adept or Technomancer 15 24/1 70,000¥/4 D Human Adept or Technomancer 13 20/1 15,000¥/3 E Human Mundane 18 18/0 5,000¥/2
First Edition:Quote from: Shadowrun 7101, p. 53*Gear Nuyen/Total Force Points for spells
Priority Magic Attributes Skills Tech* Race 0 None 15 Points 17 Points 100/5 Human 1 None 17 Points 20 Points 1,000/10 Human 2 None 20 Points 24 Points 20,000/20 Human 3 If Metahuman 24 Points 30 Points 400,000/50 Human 4 Yes 30 Points 40 Points 1,000,000- Metahuman
Second Edition:Quote from: SR2, p. 47*Gear Nuyen/Total Force Points for spells
Priority Race Magic Attributes Skill Resources* A Metahuman Human Magician 30 Points 40 Points 1,000,000¥/50 B Human Human Adept/Metahuman Magicion 24 Points 30 Points 400,000¥/35 C Human Metahuman Adept 20 Points 24 Points 90,000¥/25 D Human - 17 Points 20 Points 5,000¥/15 E Human - 15 Points 17 Points 500¥/5
Third Edition:Quote from: SR3, p. 54
Priority Race Magic Attributes Skill Resources A - Full Magician 30 50 1,000,000¥ B - Adept/Aspected Magician 27 40 400,000¥ C Troll/Elf - 24 34 90,000¥ D Dwarf/Ork - 21 30 20,000¥ E Human - 18 27 5,000¥
Fourth Edition:Quote from: Runner's Companion, p. 38*Skill points/Max # of Skill Groups
Priority Heritage Talent Attributes Skills* Resources/Contacts A Any metatype Magician or Technomancer 20 38/2 250,000¥/8 B Any metatype Adept, Magician or Technomancer 17 30/2 140,000¥/6 C Human, Dwarf or Ork Adept or Technomancer 15 24/1 70,000¥/4 D Human Adept or Technomancer 13 20/1 15,000¥/3 E Human Mundane 18 18/0 5,000¥/2
Yeeeaaahhhhno. I think I'll stick with my point buy.
But on the subject on Skill Caps, I dislike them. When I've dumped a good 100+ karma (Ya know, 10 or so runs down the line, give or take), I wanna be able to show that I have a decent 80 percent chance of nailing that one thing I'm DAMN good at. Not take 13 dice (general off the top of my head average for human (6 max stat, 6 max skill, and bonus for specialization) and hope to god it succeeds, given that 3 die faces do jack, one is bad, and two are successes.
Best way to create character is Karma generation. One and only one system available for both, creating and upgrading character is very good, creates quite ballanced characters with wide variety of skills.
Floating Target numbers are worse evil I`ve ever met, 5/6 hit system is much better. Again. IMO
All this said, I'd prefer if SR5 were quite a ways off, but if it is just over the horizon, my suggestion to the design team would be to leave attribute + skill as the way to determine dice pool, with the cap on skills being removed. Instead of only 1/3 of d6 results producing a successful result, a floating TN of a base 4 modified by various factors would be much preferable--things such as range and other stuff could affect that target number with smartgun systems still adding 2 dice. In order to prevent ridiculousness, setting a minimum target number of 2 would also be good (further positive modifiers being there only to mitigate negative modifiers).
All this said, I'd prefer if SR5 were quite a ways off, but if it is just over the horizon, my suggestion to the design team would be to leave attribute + skill as the way to determine dice pool, with the cap on skills being removed. Instead of only 1/3 of d6 results producing a successful result, a floating TN of a base 4 modified by various factors would be much preferable--things such as range and other stuff could affect that target number with smartgun systems still adding 2 dice. In order to prevent ridiculousness, setting a minimum target number of 2 would also be good (further positive modifiers being there only to mitigate negative modifiers).
OK, so every player would need to memorize two tables instead of one...one to modify dicepool, one to modify target number. I also remember 2nd edition with tasks with TN 23 etc...this adds nothing to the gameplay but frustration.
Instead of removing caps from skills, Id rather see system where skills are linked to the attribute the way attribute somehow caps max for skill...thinking about characters with Agility 2 and Wing Chun 15 is realy funny...also this can cap dicepools at some reasonable level...dice fetishism with 20+ dices is a good source of jokes about shadowrun :)
Other things you said...Ive seen you using this arguments before, we would have to agree we disagree ;)
Guns, simple is good. What you're proposing adds needless complexity to the works. You want to know why the d20 system is used so often by indie makers? Because "Roll a d20, add X, compare to target" is dirt simple and easy to understand. "Roll xd6, compare to what the target number is for this test, try to get the the proper number of hits" is not.
Talking about smartgun...and what other things like that would be necessary to have in rules?
How would you distinguish those that do and those that don`t?
Would there be two kind of things like that? One modifying target number, other modifying dicepool?
...
etcetc...highway to GURPS hell :p
About TN in range from 1-6 (IDN if I understand you correctly so excuse me if I dont, sometimes my english fails and I really dont want to insult you anyhow)...well
I can see that TN 5 is statisticaly that what you are looking for...and modifying number of hits..like modifying thresshold or oposed test...this is what we have now so why you think it is wrong? ???
IMO I get it, well can you give example to be sure?
I like Slamm-0!.SR5D20 . . *runs*And people say I'm the one that's like Slamm-0!.
Out of curisoity is there any reason why people like the priority build system? I found it clunky and the starting characters it created, like the detective or the street mage, were very hard to play (unless you were a human samurai who spent 1 million on cyber). When the point build came out I found it much better for building playable characters. (Especially with the free knowledge points.)
Out of curisoity is there any reason why people like the priority build system? I found it clunky and the starting characters it created, like the detective or the street mage, were very hard to play (unless you were a human samurai who spent 1 million on cyber). When the point build came out I found it much better for building playable characters. (Especially with the free knowledge points.)
As for dice pools system in SR5, why not have them as such:
Base attribute + skill (in # of dice to be rolled), and then have a range of difficulties to succeed (the higher the difficulty, the more heroic the result)
If anyone has played Star Wars D6, then you'll understand what I mean about the "Range of Difficulties".
As for dice pools system in SR5, why not have them as such:
Base attribute + skill (in # of dice to be rolled), and then have a range of difficulties to succeed (the higher the difficulty, the more heroic the result)
If anyone has played Star Wars D6, then you'll understand what I mean about the "Range of Difficulties".
Kind of what I was thinking. For a more clear idea of what I mean by the target number per die thing, see the Old World of Darkness (vastly superior to the new one to my way of thinking--at least pre-revised).
See, my ONLY issue with 4A at the moment, other then Initiative, which I believe is THE big issue with it, is the fact that 2/3s of the die is worthless to the player. The chances of rolling 5s and 6s on 12 dice? Not nearly as high as you think. My DM knows how many times I've busted all out with 20+ dice for an attack and got 1, count it, 1 hit. A MAJORITY of the dice I had were 2s, 3s and 4s. No ones, and a single 5.
Now, I'm not saying that every number except 1 needs to be a hit. That's just foolish. I'd LIKE to see 4-6 be hits. That still leaves room for error via luck, but given the fact that our characters are PROFESSIONALS in their chosen fields, I personally think they should have a 50/50 chance (I know the actual odds don't break down like that) of a hit on every die they throw. Then again, I don't tend to use a lot of Edge. I mean, this isn't Dark Heresy after all.
Because it was based on nWoD with D6 instead of D10.As for dice pools system in SR5, why not have them as such:
Base attribute + skill (in # of dice to be rolled), and then have a range of difficulties to succeed (the higher the difficulty, the more heroic the result)
If anyone has played Star Wars D6, then you'll understand what I mean about the "Range of Difficulties".
Kind of what I was thinking. For a more clear idea of what I mean by the target number per die thing, see the Old World of Darkness (vastly superior to the new one to my way of thinking--at least pre-revised).
The scary thing is is that Wikipedia classified SR4's system as very similar to nWoD's system.
See, my ONLY issue with 4A at the moment, other then Initiative, which I believe is THE big issue with it, is the fact that 2/3s of the die is worthless to the player. The chances of rolling 5s and 6s on 12 dice? Not nearly as high as you think. My DM knows how many times I've busted all out with 20+ dice for an attack and got 1, count it, 1 hit. A MAJORITY of the dice I had were 2s, 3s and 4s. No ones, and a single 5.Step 1: Get 100 Karma.
Now, I'm not saying that every number except 1 needs to be a hit. That's just foolish. I'd LIKE to see 4-6 be hits. That still leaves room for error via luck, but given the fact that our characters are PROFESSIONALS in their chosen fields, I personally think they should have a 50/50 chance (I know the actual odds don't break down like that) of a hit on every die they throw. Then again, I don't tend to use a lot of Edge. I mean, this isn't Dark Heresy after all.
See, my ONLY issue with 4A at the moment, other then Initiative, which I believe is THE big issue with it, is the fact that 2/3s of the die is worthless to the player. The chances of rolling 5s and 6s on 12 dice? Not nearly as high as you think. My DM knows how many times I've busted all out with 20+ dice for an attack and got 1, count it, 1 hit. A MAJORITY of the dice I had were 2s, 3s and 4s. No ones, and a single 5.Step 1: Get 100 Karma.
Now, I'm not saying that every number except 1 needs to be a hit. That's just foolish. I'd LIKE to see 4-6 be hits. That still leaves room for error via luck, but given the fact that our characters are PROFESSIONALS in their chosen fields, I personally think they should have a 50/50 chance (I know the actual odds don't break down like that) of a hit on every die they throw. Then again, I don't tend to use a lot of Edge. I mean, this isn't Dark Heresy after all.
Step 2: Purchase Legendary Positive Quality from Street Legends (Hits on 4,5,6).
Step 3: Profit.
As long as Bull himself hasn't said no anywhere yet, i think it is legal . .
But i don't think that something like that would get by the cranky old ork.
The Target Number in SR4 is always 5 or 6 and each roll of 5 or 6 on a single die constitutes a hit.
And then you need a specific number of hits to achieve what you set out to do with that roll. Or rolls, in the case of extended tests.
So, technically, there is no TargetNumber ever in SR4. And with legendary status, you can get a hit on a roll of 4 too.
SR4 only has hit yes/no and enough hits yes/no.
SR3 had Target numbers that went all over the place from 2 if you were fortunate to 20 if you were unfortunate.
And then you still needed a specific number of successes(managed to roll the TN of X with 1 dice) to do certain stuff.
TN of 2 means nothing if you need 10 successes and only have 5 dice to roll with . .
I go away for a few days and come back to see this thread... oh, please say it is not so. Keep 4E around for a long time. I feel there is no need to redo everything into a 5E version.
Please.
I go away for a few days and come back to see this thread... oh, please say it is not so. Keep 4E around for a long time. I feel there is no need to redo everything into a 5E version.
Please.
Well, I'm just trying to be realistic here. SR4 was released in 2004 (yes I know SR4A was released in 2009, but its still part of the current ruleset). Its now 2012. Eight years is a lot longer than the average time of most rpgs.
I hate time jumps.What about time warps?
Stop right there.But...
Stop right there.But...
It's just a jump to the left.
Stop right there.But...
It's just a jump to the left.
And then a step to the ri-i-i-i-ight...
I go away for a few days and come back to see this thread... oh, please say it is not so. Keep 4E around for a long time. I feel there is no need to redo everything into a 5E version.
Please.
Well, I'm just trying to be realistic here. SR4 was released in 2004 (yes I know SR4A was released in 2009, but its still part of the current ruleset). Its now 2012. Eight years is a lot longer than the average time of most rpgs.
I bet we'll see a new edition about when all the big meta-arcs get to a point where they can be time-jumped forward a few years, and not before.
And your knees in tight!Stop right there.But...
It's just a jump to the left.
And then a step to the ri-i-i-i-ight...
put Your Hands on your Hip....
He who dances with (Where do You come from ? )Columbia and (Whats Your fav. Colour ? )Magenta
Medicineman
AND SNAP INTO A SLIM JIM!!!!
I hate you all.Ah the sweet ambrosia of a Freelancer's tears.... Almost as good as CanRay's.
I hate you all.Ah the sweet ambrosia of a Freelancer's tears.... Almost as good as CanRay's.
Because he wanted to be Frank-n-furter, but Tim Curry got the role.I hate you all.Ah the sweet ambrosia of a Freelancer's tears.... Almost as good as CanRay's.
I'm still trying to figure out why he'd hate all of us.
Because he wanted to be Frank-n-furter, but Tim Curry got the role.I hate you all.Ah the sweet ambrosia of a Freelancer's tears.... Almost as good as CanRay's.
I'm still trying to figure out why he'd hate all of us.
First Edition:Quote from: Shadowrun 7101, p. 53*Gear Nuyen/Total Force Points for spells
Priority Magic Attributes Skills Tech* Race 0 None 15 Points 17 Points 100/5 Human 1 None 17 Points 20 Points 1,000/10 Human 2 None 20 Points 24 Points 20,000/20 Human 3 If Metahuman 24 Points 30 Points 400,000/50 Human 4 Yes 30 Points 40 Points 1,000,000- Metahuman
Second Edition:Quote from: SR2, p. 47*Gear Nuyen/Total Force Points for spells
Priority Race Magic Attributes Skill Resources* A Metahuman Human Magician 30 Points 40 Points 1,000,000¥/50 B Human Human Adept/Metahuman Magicion 24 Points 30 Points 400,000¥/35 C Human Metahuman Adept 20 Points 24 Points 90,000¥/25 D Human - 17 Points 20 Points 5,000¥/15 E Human - 15 Points 17 Points 500¥/5
Third Edition:Quote from: SR3, p. 54
Priority Race Magic Attributes Skill Resources A - Full Magician 30 50 1,000,000¥ B - Adept/Aspected Magician 27 40 400,000¥ C Troll/Elf - 24 34 90,000¥ D Dwarf/Ork - 21 30 20,000¥ E Human - 18 27 5,000¥
Fourth Edition:Quote from: Runner's Companion, p. 38*Skill points/Max # of Skill Groups
Priority Heritage Talent Attributes Skills* Resources/Contacts A Any metatype Magician or Technomancer 20 38/2 250,000¥/8 B Any metatype Adept, Magician or Technomancer 17 30/2 140,000¥/6 C Human, Dwarf or Ork Adept or Technomancer 15 24/1 70,000¥/4 D Human Adept or Technomancer 13 20/1 15,000¥/3 E Human Mundane 18 18/0 5,000¥/2
Because he wanted to be Frank-n-furter, but Tim Curry got the role.I hate you all.Ah the sweet ambrosia of a Freelancer's tears.... Almost as good as CanRay's.
I'm still trying to figure out why he'd hate all of us.
SR5 is almost assuredly in the works the way this industry goes, I just hope its a system improvement rather than a new system all together. That way we don't have to buy all new books.
SR5 is almost assuredly in the works the way this industry goes, I just hope its a system improvement rather than a new system all together. That way we don't have to buy all new books.
Kinda like SR4A could also be called SR4.5? ;)
Hero System is on its sixth edition now, and I've played the last three editions. I can honestly say there is not much difference between the three editions. The core mechanic is the same, though other things have been changed a bit, mostly cosmetic things.
I vastly prefer SR4 to SR3, so when (yes, I'm saying when, not if) SR5 comes along, I hope that the core mechanic from SR4 remains.
Kinda like SR4A could also be called SR4.5? ;)Not near enough changes between SR4 and SR4A to be considered that similar. It would be closer to 4.05 maybe. All they really did was add some awesome artwork and stories, change a few costs around (att improvements, adept powers, skillsofts, ect.), and put in some overdue errata.
Would be nice if the firearm and vehicle creation rules made a comeback though. I really miss those :'(I just hope they do a better job with them than the SR3 system did. Otherwise you wind up at a point where everyone has to build custom guns or fall behind the curve.
But I have this great idea for a silenced, belt fed, full-auto assault cannon...QuoteWould be nice if the firearm and vehicle creation rules made a comeback though. I really miss those :'(I just hope they do a better job with them than the SR3 system did. Otherwise you wind up at a point where everyone has to build custom guns or fall behind the curve.
But I have this great idea for a silenced, belt fed, full-auto assault cannon...QuoteWould be nice if the firearm and vehicle creation rules made a comeback though. I really miss those :'(I just hope they do a better job with them than the SR3 system did. Otherwise you wind up at a point where everyone has to build custom guns or fall behind the curve.
i think i once made a full auto shotgun with enough recoil compensation to fire 6 shots without problem that was as easy to hide as a heavy pistol . .
The problem wasn't with the firearm/vehicle creation rules. Any rules are going to be "broken" when someone does everything they can to TRY to break them.
Because using these rules to make a usefull weapon creates a broken weapon.
I want a weapon that i can use in close quarters, by fuff this means short barrel and bullpup design.
By crunch this means higher conceal than hold out pistols have with more recoil compensation too.
I want a fully automatic shotgun that is not as big as an HMG, and presto, i have an assault gun in my pocket.
Because using these rules to make a usefull weapon creates a broken weapon.
I want a weapon that i can use in close quarters, by fuff this means short barrel and bullpup design.
By crunch this means higher conceal than hold out pistols have with more recoil compensation too.
I want a fully automatic shotgun that is not as big as an HMG, and presto, i have an assault gun in my pocket.
Somehow I'm picturing the collapsible guns from the Mass Effect games here.The really screwed part of it was that a clip of ammo was easier to see in many cases than the gun (with the clip loaded) was. The shortbarreled bullpup rifle was more concealable than a pack of cigs basically.
I think here is part of the problem. You don't need both to use it in close quarters. You only need the bullpup. Just because people are putting an additional point that makes sense to them using too much "realism" in their logic, doesn't mean the system is broken.
I don't really see how the conceal system was bad to start with. With the shifting target numbers and no Perception skill (only rolling Intelligence for Perception) the average person was only rolling 3-5 dice, with geniuses rolling 6-8. Even at eight dice (maxed Intelligence), needing a 9 to spot a hold out isn't exactly a sure deal. Toss in Lined Coats and Concealable holsters and you needed a 15 or 16 (depending on how the GM applied the coat/holster), which means unless they're giving you a thorough pat down it isn't likely to get noticed.
On Light Pistols it dropped down to needing an 11 or 12 to notice, which again isn't likely.
take the longcoat and holster out of the equation and you were still looking at 6s, 8s and 9s for the light and holdout pistols. Anything bigger than a light pistol isn't really meant to be that concealable.
The lack of drawbacks (other than a little bit of cost) made the firearm creation system just another power creep. The mods system is arsenal is slightly better, but a combination of the two would really make things a lot nicer.QuoteSomehow I'm picturing the collapsible guns from the Mass Effect games here.The really screwed part of it was that a clip of ammo was easier to see in many cases than the gun (with the clip loaded) was. The shortbarreled bullpup rifle was more concealable than a pack of cigs basically.QuoteI think here is part of the problem. You don't need both to use it in close quarters. You only need the bullpup. Just because people are putting an additional point that makes sense to them using too much "realism" in their logic, doesn't mean the system is broken.
Depends on whether they're wanting just a bullpup rifle, or a short barreled bullpup rifle. Not all bullpup rifles are short barrelled, cutting the barrel down on one gives you an almost SMG sized package with rifle stopping power. Technically you could use an HMG in close quarters mechanically, but god forbid people use a little common sense when designing custom firearms. Heck, if logic is just getting tossed to the wind, might as well just rename the already placed stats and use them instead of worrying about it.
Saying that its applying too much realism is about the weakest excuse possible for something that is blatantly broken. They made a point to distinguish that Bullpup couldn't be used with Imp. Conceal, but left the Barrel Reduction option open. That implies that it fits reallistically.
Many people continued to play 2.0 D&D long after 3.0 came out. Many still played 3.5/pathfinder after 4.0 came out or played 4.0 D&D and disliked it so much they were willing to return to 3.5/pathfinder. I mean not to degrade this into an edition wars argument of D&D, but to point out that some preferred older material.Its not just about previous Editions
You don't have to change the system much, you just have to avoid changing it in the wrong ways.exactly :)
Okay, let me clarify one salient point:
All I wanted to know is if a new edition was in the works, thats all. I had hoped that it wouldn't devolve into a bunch of rants on what is or isn't broken.
D_R
Again, you're claiming that because you think it's "broken" it means that it is, no ifs ands or buts about it. And another thing, the firearms and vehicle creation rules were something heavily dependent on GM approval (even more so than character generation itself). If a particular firearm design doesn't fit your game, disallow that design and try again.
I would likely not play a d20 SR. It's like playing D20 BESM. It's just not the same, and would be a different game to me. Kinda like how people now differentiate between d6 Star Wars and d20 Star Wars.
Does anyone play D20 anymore?Yes. Over on RPOL, there are plenty of D&D games going on (from OD&D to D&D4), as well as Mutants & Masterminds (which is basically d20 Superheroes). And there are definitely groups IRL that still play games on the d20 system.
Does anyone play D20 anymore?Well, I'm still big into Pathfinder, but that is a derivative of the d20 system.
Does anyone play D20 anymore?Well, I'm still big into Pathfinder, but that is a derivative of the d20 system.
D20ifying it would definitely be the nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. I didn't switch over to the brief D20 Deadlands stint, won't even go to the Savage Worlds crap they put out. Sure didn't touch the D20 Swashbuckling Adventures stuff (D20 version of 7th Sea). The only possible benefit is it might drag more people to the game, but then we'd have to drag them from their D20 system to a real system. Trying to explain that there are no classes is something I don't feel like having to do again.
There are d20 System games without classes, Crash. Mutants & Masterminds, for instance, has a point buy system for chargen much like Shadowrun's, though with different values, of course. It is actually one of the easier superhero systems to pick up, especially when compared to things like Hero System, Heroes Unlimited, BESM, and others.
Personally, I find M&M 2nd to be the best of the M&M editions. Flexible enough that you are able to do any character you want, but firm enough that you aren't going to have someone be Goku, but with invulnerability.
I'm pretty sure Iron Man armor is feasible in SR4.
I'm pretty sure Iron Man armor is feasible in SR4.
There's already the Iron Will exoskeleton out of Attitude (p 154); which is armor that gets treated like a vehicle... or a vehicle that gets worn like armor... or something to that effect. All I know is it's a power-assistance device that was invented before muscle aug and rigged drones became so freakin' cheap, and it's basically the Power Loader from Aliens. That gives you a precedent to base "power armor," since it bridges the line between armor and vehicles.
One might foreseeably have something similar, but built with modern tech and with Responsive Interface Gear as "stock" to eliminate the -1 Agility Iron Will gives the wearer (via reading the intent to move as it goes out to your muscles instead of needing delay-causing mechanical feedback). After that, throwing in a jet-pack and some built-in laser weapons is easy... though it'll probably look more like the Iron Monger from the first movie, rather than Iron Man.
though it'll probably look more like the Iron Monger from the first movie, rather than Iron Man.That's because Tony Stark didn't build it. In a cave. WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
AFAIK, as of WAR!, metahuman exoskeleton type suits have proven unworkable so far. Either they are too large and bulky to work, or they move so quickly that they injure their drivers.
wear soft-weave-military-grade-armor underneath it that has agility and strength boost built into it.
Drag from d20 to a "real" system? What the hell? The d20 system is just as valid a system as most others--I say most because of the diceless systems out there.
Crash, that is because Shadowrun has a single world to deal with. You can encourage people to be scared drekless by bug spirits because any SR player knows EXACTLY what they've done. This isn't the case in D&D, where there is no set world. Mindflayers? Yes, they're nasty, because they eat your brain. Drow? Evil elves. There is a very good reason for this. Not everyone may use the idea that Mindflayers are actually refugees from the far future trying to rebuild their future empire that crossed the stars while fighting to enslave the giths that will eventually rise up to overthrow the empire, since they got tired of being slaves. Not everyone will play how Malcanthet, demon queen of the Succubi, is currently trying to seduce one of the Lords of Hell in order to forge an unholy alliance between the Abyss and the Nine Hells that will leave the material plane in shambles. Not everyone will have Elminster sitting in his tower, keeping the REALLY nasty things from wrecking havoc while he sends adventurers out to handle 'local' threats.
And yes, there are people who play a simple dungeon run style game, where the whole purpose is to kill things and take their stuff. That motif is especially popular at cons and pick up games at your FLGS where they hand out a few pregens to play. There are a great many, however, who do roleplay their characters, especially when they are in a long-running game IRL, with characters they have played for a while, and grown to know. You don't get that same experience with living campaigns as you do gaming with the same group week in and week out.
There are a great many, however, who do roleplay their characters, especially when they are in a long-running game IRL, with characters they have played for a while, and grown to know. You don't get that same experience with living campaigns as you do gaming with the same group week in and week out.I'm assuming you didn't bother to actually read both my posts or you would have noticed:
Roleplaying in D&D, as in any other setting, including Shadowrun, is a function of the interaction between the DM and the PCs. The dice are there because not everyone has the silver tongue of a bard, or the nimble fingers of the rogue, or the fighter's skill with a blade. The diceless systems are no better or worse at roleplaying. Indeed, I've seen more than a few such 'diceless' games devolve into cowboys and indians style shenanigans.
And where, then, is the "roleplaying as a key aspect" in Shadowrun? The 1-2 karma points you may get for good roleplaying if the DM feels like it, just like how a DM in D&D can award bonus XP for roleplaying if he feels like it? I will admit that D&D books don't have the same flair as Shadowrun books do, but there is a simple reason for that. Shadowrun is a single setting. D&D is designed to be used in different settings, be it Greyhawk, Faerun, Ravenloft, Eberron, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Birthright, or any one of the hundreds of thousands of homebrew settings that DMs have brought in over the years. Shadowrun's system is intrinsically tied to the setting, making it far more difficult to transplant into another world than D&D, which provides a skeleton, and allows DMs to put meat on the bones, building the world to their specifications.
QuoteDrag from d20 to a "real" system? What the hell? The d20 system is just as valid a system as most others--I say most because of the diceless systems out there.
Its a perfectly valid miniature wargame system with roleplaying optional. You can argue until your blue in the face, but when the suggested XP for roleplaying is absolutely horrid compared to killing monsters and nothing other than killing monsters gives experience, then its pretty much a killing monsters game.
It's not just D20, Dungeons and Dragons has almost always been like this, but D20 definitely redefined it into a board game making a battlegrid and dice almost mandatory to manage it without someone at the table getting jipped on abilities.
Most of the diceless systems out there are actually more viable as a roleplaying system, because the focus is actually on roleplaying.
I'm not saying you can't roleplay D20, just that the focus isn't on roleplaying at all. A real RPG system should have roleplaying as a key aspect, not an afterthought.
The board game feel came in 3rd edition when the entire game started revolving around the square map system, and abilities began to be tied directly to it. 4E just made it feel like a board game version of an MMO complete with cooldowns.
If you went off the grid and just used real distances, melee classes suffered drastically from movement no longer being set up in 5 ft. chunks (primarily due to the five ft. step and how full attacks worked which was a core of the the combat system (Full round and five ft step or move, standard, and five ft step)). Every ability was tied to the combat system which was at it's core tied to five foot movement increments. The game revolved around it so much, that during beta you didn't even have movement in feet, it was in squares that you could move. They changed back to feet because they felt that the math would make diagonal movement easier to comprehend.
Not really, they didn't suffer except in the first round against a given opponent,So, they suffered. I don't really agree with that analysis, but I'm not going to break down the entire 3.5 system in an SR5 thread. That would take far more time and effort than I really care for.
and even then there were abilities you could gain from feats or class abilities (I think on that second one) where you could get bonuses when making just one attack in a round. This is definitely the case in Pathfinder, which is the true successor to 3.5 D&D, and thus still d20.So, it's not that bad because you can spend your feats or abilities to compensate for the fact that you're not using a vital part of the game's concept? Right.
Indeed. Maps and minis were brought about to make things easier for players to understand what they can and can't do, and to understand what other people can do to them. And it DRAMATICALLY cuts down on friendly fire when a fireball goes off, for instance. In my first SR game, I nearly got killed on a courier run because the troll street samurai thought it'd be a good idea to toss a grenade into the group of gunmen we were facing, not knowing that two of the team were well within the blast radius.
Heh. Well, my mage did end a later encounter in that mission fairly quickly (and cinematically). We'd crossed two borders in Denver, and were on our way to the final drop when we had a go gang on our tails. So my mage drops an ice slick in the road behind the van. The drain knocked him out, but the DM had a lot of fun describing (in detail) what happened to the gangers as they encountered the ice slick.
My point was that the Pool o'd6 just SCREAMS shadowrun to me. The same way seeing someone put down a bag mostly filled with d10s tells me they play in White Wolf games. Its just a fundamental part of it's identity...
Star Wars D6. It's happened in a few of our games.My point was that the Pool o'd6 just SCREAMS shadowrun to me. The same way seeing someone put down a bag mostly filled with d10s tells me they play in White Wolf games. Its just a fundamental part of it's identity...
(http://www.karmainferno.com/images/Shadowrun-dice.jpg)
-k
Star Wars d6 rocks!!! unlike 'Star Wars' d20
Fifth edition? That's as crazy as coming out with a new 5th Edition of D&D so soon after... Oh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
I doubt it. I mean, hell, we're barely into metaplot storylines and how many more PDFs CGL can pump out. :) SOTA'73 is pretty good.
Shall I go off like CanRay at the mention of "clips"?Grrlr, gnash, snap, RAY SMASH!!!
Shall I go off like CanRay at the mention of "clips"?Grrlr, gnash, snap, RAY SMASH!!!
Lactose Intolerance!!! RAY SMASH INTOLERANCE!!!*throws Ray some chocolate chip muffins to calm him down!*Shall I go off like CanRay at the mention of "clips"?Grrlr, gnash, snap, RAY SMASH!!!
Star Wars d6 rocks!!! unlike 'Star Wars' d20
Let's not start that again
Star Wars d6 rocks!!! unlike 'Star Wars' d20
Let's not start that again
I'll bite... What's wrong with SWD6? I also think its superior to d20.
But it's not as bad as magazines vs clips.*Perks up*
But it's not as bad as magazines vs clips.*Perks up*
Star Wars d6 rocks!!! unlike 'Star Wars' d20
Let's not start that again
Star Wars d6 rocks!!! unlike 'Star Wars' d20
Let's not start that again
Sorry, just stating my opinion, I thought. No intention of starting anything (again or not).
But it's not as bad as magazines vs clips.*Perks up*
Yes I know the difference and it bothers me too.
if they really wanna troll, they'll go back to SR3-System . .
I actually liked SR3 better. I just didn't like teaching people SR3. It was a horribly complicated thing to learn the first time.
I actually liked SR3 better. I just didn't like teaching people SR3. It was a horribly complicated thing to learn the first time.
Agreed. I don't think anyone in my SR3 group wanted to play a Decker due to how complicated it was. Plus the GM kinda groaned the one time we made any mention of getting a Decker to help on a run.
I think it was the two bazillion rolls to do just about anything on the matrix combined with the completely different time passages that made combat a real pain in the ass if the decker was VR decking at the same time as the rest of the team was in physical combat.
Decking is one of the things that I think SR4 did a good job with, but I hate how they slapped deckers and riggers together. I really liked the full blown VCR feel of riggers.
That, above all, is the lesson Catalyst should learn from D&D. You have a good, fairly simple mechanic here, that is pretty easy to design any kind of character you like, but doesn't treat more advanced players like their twelve years old.
Karmagen :)
Karmagen :)
You hear about the Hero Lab errata to that over in General Discussion? It's official Word of God (or at least Word of JMH) that the Karmagen system is to be bumped up to 1000 Karma. ;)
Hmmm...that would be real advanced result you built with 1000 Karma points. Any movement in limitations for Attributes and resources?Karmagen :)You hear about the Hero Lab errata to that over in General Discussion? It's official Word of God (or at least Word of JMH) that the Karmagen system is to be bumped up to 1000 Karma. ;)
1000? That's really a lot.
Most of the chars I built with both 400BP and 750 karma, the karma characters are a lot more powerful. And that's already using the x5 rule instead x3 (Chummer uses x5 by default).
Do you pay karma for metatype too? Or just the increased cost of racially modified attributes?
D&D brought out 5th Edition because they realized they ROYALLY pissed off their fans with 4th. They brought out 4th because they'd run through pretty much all the material they could without getting into real shark-jumping territory. Their mistake is that, unlike games such as Hero System, which has had the same basic mechanic from at least 4th edition all the way to 6th, with some minor tweaks, they decided to strip out over half the rulebook, and change everything. Take any Hero character's 4th ed stats, and it is fairly straightforward to convert them to 6th ed. Take a D&D character's 3.5 stats, and you need to get a lobotomy to convert them and be satisfied with the results.
That, above all, is the lesson Catalyst should learn from D&D. You have a good, fairly simple mechanic here, that is pretty easy to design any kind of character you like, but doesn't treat more advanced players like their twelve years old.
Argh why 5th? Why not get more input from the user base(Hell a lot of the writers now are LONG span players and fans) and get 4A bug fixed then see how many of us buy SR4B The Matrix That Makes Sense Edition etc. I`d buy two copies one for me and another for the players. I`d like to see an official rules Wiki/SRD not just a FAQ. Give it to the Scary Canadian to do?Scary Canadian? Isn't that like Military Intelligence or Microsoft Works? ;)
Scary Canadian? Isn't that like Military Intelligence or Microsoft Works? ;)Not when it's me. ;D
Scary Canadian? Isn't that like Military Intelligence or Microsoft Works? ;)
Heh. See, I don't find CanRay remotely scary. Then again, I'm someone who enjoys driving on a hiway when it is bumper to bumper at 80 MPH, so...Scary Canadian? Isn't that like Military Intelligence or Microsoft Works? ;)Not when it's me. ;D
Discuss federal politics with a member of BQ - you will know terror.Meh. They can't be worse than the Tea Party nutjobs I have to deal with down here. There's a difference between annoying idiots you don't want in power, and terror-inducing.
Discuss federal politics with a member of BQ - you will know terror.Meh. They can't be worse than the Tea Party nutjobs I have to deal with down here. There's a difference between annoying idiots you don't want in power, and terror-inducing.[/quote]That depends on if the BQ in question is just a whack job that wants to leave Canada... Or a former member of the FLQ trying to stay on the downlow and is a politician to seem like they're a legitimate and honest citizen now.
BQ terrifying? Really?
Meh! FLQ days are over. Now it's the other way around, a federalist nutjob trying to assasinate our newly appointed Prime Minister. Proof that extremists appear in every idiology, every single one of them.
Meh. They can't be worse than the Tea Party nutjobs I have to deal with down here. There's a difference between annoying idiots you don't want in power, and terror-inducing.I live in Missouri - we get Tea Party, White Supremacists and sundry varieties of WTF here.
Seems like we Down Under got off light when Pauline Hanson & One Nation were trying to make waves.
Now if only we could get rid of Tony Abbott, the Tea Party-wannabe.
Why is there RL politics being discussed? This is an SR5 Speculation thread, not a place to discuss political opinions!!!The two are different?
<moderator hat on>
Yes, they are CanRay. And if it continues, the thread will be locked.
</moderator hat off>
Argh why 5th? Why not get more input from the user base(Hell a lot of the writers now are LONG span players and fans) and get 4A bug fixed then see how many of us buy SR4B The Matrix That Makes Sense Edition etc. I`d buy two copies one for me and another for the players. I`d like to see an official rules Wiki/SRD not just a FAQ. Give it to the Scary Canadian to do?Scary Canadian? Isn't that like Military Intelligence or Microsoft Works? ;)
You know, I know this is old and off topic, but my Canuck pride demands a response...
You know, I know this is old and off topic, but my Canuck pride demands a response...
Great, now there's two of them...
Is there a name for a group of Canadians? ... a brewery?
You know, I know this is old and off topic, but my Canuck pride demands a response...
James freaking Bond. Based on an actual Canadian that Ian Fleming met in the war.
James freaking Bond. Based on an actual Canadian that Ian Fleming met in the war.Actually, James Bond is based on a few people Mr. Flemming met, one of which is Christopher Lee (Yes, the actor and heavy metal artist.).
I think with the recent announcements all the relevant topics are now over in General Discussion.
You might try out the last few Bond films, though. Completely different look and feel. Hardly any gadgets, Bond is more brutal, and the villains are slightly less fantasy based. Definate influences from the Bourne movies. You'll probably either hate them or love them.
-k
He made a good Bond, imo.
I'd even go so far and say that, to me, Casino Royale is the best bond movie ever.
He made a good Bond, imo.
I'd even go so far and say that, to me, Casino Royale is the best bond movie ever.
THAT is my single biggest problem with SR4. The gutting of riggers.I personally see nothing wrong with that. A unified and consistent set of rules only makes it that much faster to be able to cast what dice you need and get with the roleplay and fun. There doesn't need to be a fundamental difference between how mages and hackers function, is there?
There are other issues like the dumbing down of the magic and making technomancers/otaku just mages in the matrix.
Oh, they THINK they want new stuff, they may even have convinced themselves on a surface level that they do, but on average the bulk of your customer base wants exactly what they had before, with enough cosmetic changes to make it FEEL different.I remind with:
"Given what we're charging students and schools, what improvements have been made in Flynn... er, I mean, Encom OS 12?"
"Yeah this year we put a "12" on the box."
It would be cool that in the mass chaos of what happened, a new conspiracy to reunite the old U.S., and this time they're successful.While I think america shouldn't have split and that the creators went a little Balkanization crazy (looking at history over the span from 500BC to the present, there is a stronger tendency to consolidation in geopolitics and economics than breaking down). However, the balkanization has already happened. It's part of the setting, so its something that will have to be dealt with as a coming plot arc - and given that countries unifying would threaten the political power of megacorps, that's not likely. It would be interesting to see, because I'd have liked a little more conflict between the competing interests of nations and corps with the nations being more than transparent pawns, that's not what I think the foundation of Shadowrun is.
You might try out the last few Bond films, though. Completely different look and feel.I don't really consider them Bond movies so much as a reskinned Jason Bourne. In Shadowrun terms, Bond was at his base a Face with a lot of other skills. The recent ones are more a Street Sam with a lot of other skills - it just doesn't quite seem to jive with the books or earlier movies. On their own they're not bad movies, but as part of the Bond franchise I think they're a little weak.
It would be cool that in the mass chaos of what happened, a new conspiracy to reunite the old U.S., and this time they're successful.While I think america shouldn't have split and that the creators went a little Balkanization crazy (looking at history over the span from 500BC to the present, there is a stronger tendency to consolidation in geopolitics and economics than breaking down). However, the balkanization has already happened. It's part of the setting, so its something that will have to be dealt with as a coming plot arc - and given that countries unifying would threaten the political power of megacorps, that's not likely. It would be interesting to see, because I'd have liked a little more conflict between the competing interests of nations and corps with the nations being more than transparent pawns, that's not what I think the foundation of Shadowrun is.
Aztlan is likely in debt to Aztechnology up to its eyeballs.
Makes you wonder what the corp gets out of floating the Aztlanders all that Nuyen, doesn't it?