[hnakkabuff]

Hello forum, I hope someone can help me understand this conundrum I'm having.
* also, please try to not reply with a wall of text as my eyes tire very easily and I will have to stop reading.

Each magic tradition uses spirits in a certain way like Hermetic has:
Combat:  Fire
Detection:  Air
Health:  Man
Illusion:  Water
Manipulation:  Earth

I'm in two groups and each one tackles this in a different way, but I'm hoping for an official rules as intended response.

One of the GM's I play with says that a tradition uses these categories for helping with spellcasting and sustaining the spells that belong to each category, and that one can use any spirit available to the tradition for combat and other tasks not related to spellcasting through summoning.

The other rules it so that it's the same as the first one except that one can ONLY use a combat category spirit for combat purposes through summoning and so on and so forth along those lines for the other categories.

Then comes along the Forbidden Arcana book with the "Dedicated Conjurer" quality and the latter GM bans the entire book solely based off that quality alone, but that is neither here nor there and I digress...

My conundrum is however based around that quality as it allows a summoner to gain access to other types of spirits not normally available to him/her.
What category if any would the extra types fall into, and if no category then how would that work if the rules are like the latter group I'm in understands them?

I hope I'm not confusing people too much as I have a hard time explaining things to other people most of the time.

Any help with this spirit problem is much appreciated.

[Mirikon]

The second DM is wrong in his interpretation. The categories are for the purposes of aiding spellcasting, spell sustaining, and so on. Your hermetic can have an Earth spirit attack just as easily as a Fire spirit, but getting it to help with your combat spells is a no.

As for banning an entire book based on one quality, well, that DM already has shown is judgement and interpretation of the rules to be suspect.

[Kiirnodel]

Not entirely wrong Mirikon, there is actually quite good basis for the ruling that your tradition dictates what you can have a spirit do in addition to what sort of spells they can affect.

Street Grimoire has a rule in it that actually says that. I forget where exactly, but I know it has been discussed quite a bit in the past.

The rules are quite clear on how the spirit category dictates what sort of spells the spirits can aid and so forth, so we don't need to debate that aspect. However I will point out that for Dedicated Conjurer, this means the new spirits don't have a category, and therefore can't aid sorcery.

As far as the other part goes, personally, I go for a bit of a compromise, and the way I handle it actually helps bring the roleplaying in line with the setting and works to prevent simple power-gaming (the "I summon this spirit because it is better than the others" mentality). Simply put, the category of spells that a spirit governs also shapes your view of what that particular spirit is meant to do.

So, for example, a Shaman plans to go into combat, so they prepare by summoning a Beast spirit. That's their Combat spirit, so it just makes sense. You want to use a spirit to help you find someone, summon your Detection spirit, you want to hide? Illusion spirit. You don't necessarily summon those spirits because they can't do other things, but because that's their purpose from your magical stand-point. Now, there are always ways to twist that concept to move things along, such as using your Detection spirit to Conceal the team because you are "evading detection" so that still falls in that spirit's sphere of influence. Or my personal favorite, asking a Health spirit to "Protect these people" which means that it will engage in combat to defend the lives of those individuals.

[ShadowcatX]

I would be very interested in seeing that rule kiirnodel.

Personally, I'm with the fluff and aid sorcery side of the argument.

[Rosa]

To my knowledge no such rule has ever existed in SR. As fluff? Yes. As role playing aids? Yes. As an actual rule? No.

If you take a look at the different spirits and the powers they have you'll see that they all have the skills Astral combat and unarmed combat, furthermore all the spirits have offensive powers and several have quite a few offensive powers, including water spirits and guidance spirits, which are the two only spirit types that does not occupy the combat role in even a single tradition ( i checked them all just to be sure ).

Why then does the water spirit have the exotic ranged weapon skill?  Because you can give it the elemental attack power and why on earth could you do that if you were not meant to use the water spirit for combat. If it was really so,  that you were limited to use your combat spirit for actual combat, it would suck big time to be an elder gods mage since their combat spirit is the task spirit, which is probably the worst spirit of them all to use for combat actually.

[farothel]

I also think that which spirit you summon can also depend on where you are.  If you are going to do combat, but you're on a ship, summoning a water spirit makes perfect sense, even though it might not be your tradition's combat spirit.  the same for instance for an earth spirit if you're underground.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I've got a related but separate question.  Can you even summon a spirit that isn't linked to a spell type by your tradition?  For example, Spirits of beasts aren't on the Hermetic list, so are Hermetics able or unable to summon Spirits of Beasts?

I'm guessing the answer is "Unable", or else the first sentence of the Summoning rules in the core rulebook is meaningless:

You can summon spirits of your tradition (p. 279).

[Lorebane24]

I rememeber that "rule" mentioned in SG, and I've run with it wheen I'm GMing, but I always am upfront with my players about it and reason that conjuring in RAW is crazy powerful for what it does vs resources invested.  Basically, summoning a spirit or casting a spell causes drain, but twhile the spell has a sigle effect, the spirit is a persistant ally that can perforn seveeral services at roughly the same drain cost, AND you get all of them, and request any service, simply by investing a single rank in a skill.

I actually have my players learn to summon each type of spirit indidially, using their spell slots as well (but I give all magic characters a couple extra slots to compensate), and tell then that they can order a spirit to do what they want, but how it interprets and fulfills that service is affected by its role in the tradition, and I reserve the right to have a spirit flat out refuse a service (without consuning the service) if it is entirely outsode their wheelhouse.  You can order a manipulation spirit to "assist in this fight," for example and it will support the team with crowd control, buffs, and battlefield manipulation, but if you straight up tell him "kill that guy," it will refuse.

I let mages use spirits for anything they want if they're bound rather than just conjured.

[ShadowcatX]

So feel free to tell us where that rule is Lorebane because I haven't seen it.

[Marcus]

So feel free to tell us where that rule is Lorebane because I haven't seen it.

I'm sure we can all recognize a house rule when we read it.

[Pericles]

I've got a related but separate question.  Can you even summon a spirit that isn't linked to a spell type by your tradition?  For example, Spirits of beasts aren't on the Hermetic list, so are Hermetics able or unable to summon Spirits of Beasts?

I'm guessing the answer is "Unable", or else the first sentence of the Summoning rules in the core rulebook is meaningless:

You can summon spirits of your tradition (p. 279).

No, you cannot. On the next paragraph on page 300 it says:

You can only choose a spirit of a type available to your
tradition—most traditions have five types to choose
from.

[Kiirnodel]

The descriptions also include the type of spirits each tradition uses to perform particular functions, as well as the attributes they use for Drain. Mages of that particular tradition may only summon the spirits listed with the tradition, and they are restricted in the tasks they can assign them. Assigning tasks outside the general area of their tradition will not receive a response from the spirit (for example, a Buddhist mage telling an air spirit to heal him will get no response, as air is a Combat spirit in that tradition, while the Health spirit is earth).

Added Bold and Italic for emphasis. It isn't a houserule.

And it's not even in one of the fluff sections, it is in the paragraph that is describing how to read the entries for traditions.

[Marcus]

I actually have my players learn to summon each type of spirit indidially, using their spell slots as well (but I give all magic characters a couple extra slots to compensate), and tell then that they can order a spirit to do what they want, but how it interprets and fulfills that service is affected by its role in the tradition, and I reserve the right to have a spirit flat out refuse a service (without consuning the service) if it is entirely outsode their wheelhouse.  You can order a manipulation spirit to "assist in this fight," for example and it will support the team with crowd control, buffs, and battlefield manipulation, but if you straight up tell him "kill that guy," it will refuse.

I let mages use spirits for anything they want if they're bound rather than just conjured.

This IS a house rule. Cause there ain't nothing about that in the core.

[PiXeL01]

The descriptions also include the type of spirits each tradition uses to perform particular functions, as well as the attributes they use for Drain. Mages of that particular tradition may only summon the spirits listed with the tradition, and they are restricted in the tasks they can assign them. Assigning tasks outside the general area of their tradition will not receive a response from the spirit (for example, a Buddhist mage telling an air spirit to heal him will get no response, as air is a Combat spirit in that tradition, while the Health spirit is earth).

Added Bold and Italic for emphasis. It isn't a houserule.

And it's not even in one of the fluff sections, it is in the paragraph that is describing how to read the entries for traditions.

That’s a few lines I would houserule out of existence honestly. Magicians should be allowed to summon a spirit from their tradition best suited for the situation they’re in instead of being dictated.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The descriptions also include the type of spirits each tradition uses to perform particular functions, as well as the attributes they use for Drain. Mages of that particular tradition may only summon the spirits listed with the tradition, and they are restricted in the tasks they can assign them. Assigning tasks outside the general area of their tradition will not receive a response from the spirit (for example, a Buddhist mage telling an air spirit to heal him will get no response, as air is a Combat spirit in that tradition, while the Health spirit is earth).

Added Bold and Italic for emphasis. It isn't a houserule.

And it's not even in one of the fluff sections, it is in the paragraph that is describing how to read the entries for traditions.

Huh.  I absolutely learned something today.

So, when it comes to spirits being restricted in the tasks they're assigned to do.. here's a for example that's pretty much a Shadowrun staple: Sending a spirit in to a target astrally to get an idea of the floorplan and a count of the people inside.  Would a GM have to decide whether this task is best categorized as Combat, Detection, Illusion, Health, or Manipulation and the PC is limited to sending that exact kind of spirit in for the recon? In this case, it'd probably be Detection, and so a Hermetic would be required to use an Air spirit and a Shaman would have to send a Water spirit?