NEWS

Grey Cyberware ??

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Opti

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« Reply #15 on: <11-29-18/1327:15> »
Yeah, I can see where people might be confused, so that why i offered my perspective. But I am also very aware that authorial intent does not equal RAW, so I'll let the errata team do its thing.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #16 on: <11-29-18/1338:07> »
Beta I agree with you on the analysis of the printed text. Boolean logic tells us that you need to satisfy either but not both to be Greyware.

But this is as clear-cut a case of RAW vs RAI as can possibly be found: We literally have the author directly telling us what the author's intent was. There's no ambiguity over the RAI. That should reasonably suffice until such time formal errata is deemed necessary.
« Last Edit: <11-29-18/1340:08> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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oxford_fumble

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« Reply #17 on: <11-29-18/1349:23> »
Re. Obvious Wired Reflexes: like this, probably.
(Bonus: mirror cybereyes are also obvious).

Beta

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« Reply #18 on: <11-29-18/1400:19> »
Re. Obvious Wired Reflexes: like this, probably.
(Bonus: mirror cybereyes are also obvious).

I always thought that was obvious Muscle Replacement ... but I suppose you could have visible cords bulging out of the skin, running down your neck and back and along your limbs, perhaps?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #19 on: <11-29-18/1411:04> »
I guess the meta-nature of the criterion of "obvious" is also debatable, pending Opti clarifying RAI on that as well :D

Is "obvious" a descriptive term potentially applied to a wide variety of cyberware such as wired reflexes and muscle replacement which could or could not, depending on the artistic imagining of the player, be obvious to onlookers?

Or is "obvious" a crunch term that applies only to cyberware that is explicitly available as an "obvious" implant.  Basically cyberlimbs, and, I think that's about it? (I don't think Cybereyes are differentiated between obvious and synthetic...)

I'd imagine regardless of the RAI, the application would in effect have to be the former.  I'm pretty sure only cyberlimbs have an "obvious" mechanic, and I don't think they have wireless bonuses, which would mean if the latter interpretation is used then nothing qualifies for greyware.
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Beta

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« Reply #20 on: <11-29-18/1514:34> »
SSDR, I think -- because of that exact reasoning -- that we have to assume that 'obvious' is descriptive, not mechanical.  But then the question becomes 'how obvious'?  Does it have to be obvious when you are wearing an armor jacket, for example?

Both eyes and ears can be obvious -- that samurai's eyes could be that mirror shade dome, for example (I'm pretty sure the proto-samurai in the Neuromancer (and the prequel short story) had sunglass-like eye implants, as an example).  Whether they qualify as having wireless functionality I'm trying to get clarified.

Taking a quick skim through other options didn't make a lot of strong candidates jump out at me, which is why I'm curious about what others can come up with.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #21 on: <11-29-18/1543:26> »
A "wireless component" isn't exactly the same thing as a "wireless bonus".  What has a wireless component despite having no wireless bonus can get into interpretation and opinion.  Take the Ocular Drone for example... surely it has a wireless component in giving it remote controls and taking in video feeds from it, yet there's no stated wireless bonus.  But does an olfactory booster have a wireless component? I'd argue yes, but it's certainly not explicit.

Here's a list I put together of SR5 core cyberware that has in my view should be universally agreeable as having a wireless function (if not a wireless bonus).  I'm leaving out the "obvious" criterion... in my view if it's descriptive that means it potentially applies to anything. Yes, even Bone Lacing.  (and becomes a matter of the Disguise skill, if the presence of "obvious" cyberware needs to be hidden)

Control Rig (would only work via direct connection to vehicle/RCC as Greyware, since no wireless...)
Cyberlimbs (arguably.. them having a wireless component may not have wide consensus)
Datajack (largely pointless however without wireless.. why wouldn't you just buy trodes instead for a DNI)
Fingertip Compartment/Smuggling Compartment (although the usefulness of an "obvious" hidden compartment seems dubious)
(Image/Sound/Taste/Touch/etc) Link
Internal Air Tank
Ocular Drone (without wireless, I suppose you'd either have to have it literally dragging a wire or being restricted to Pilot control and can't share recorded video until uploading directly into a commlink or such...)
Reaction Enhancers
Skilljack
Skillwires
Smartlink
Tooth Compartment
Wired Reflexes

*Edit: And add Bone Lacing to the list.  The rules for wireless functionality (pg 421, SR5) use Bone Lacing as an explicit example of having a wireless function.

If we take the RAW and say you need to be either obvious or have a wireless component, then in my view literally everything is eligible by virtue of everything being potentially obvious.  So by my reading it's in effect everything that has a wireless component is eligible, but must be descriptively obvious and lack that wireless function as greyware.
« Last Edit: <11-29-18/1624:00> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #22 on: <11-29-18/1645:39> »
I’m pretty sure that in the quoted text above the wireless component refers to wireless bonus as it is even mentioned in the previous line these bonuses are mentioned.
If that’s not the case then any cyberware can become greyware as everything in SR5 has a wireless component, even bone lacing
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Marcus

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« Reply #23 on: <11-29-18/2357:24> »
Honest to god guys why is this still under discussion? The Author told us what was intended, he wrote a tautology.
Select piece of cyberware check it verses the tautology. It's binary. It will be grey eligible or it won't.

Making this a formal logic isn't necessary.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #24 on: <11-30-18/0008:02> »
Honest to god guys why is this still under discussion? The Author told us what was intended, he wrote a tautology.
Select piece of cyberware check it verses the tautology. It's binary. It will be grey eligible or it won't.

Making this a formal logic isn't necessary.

Ok, so to reiterate the author's intent:
Author here.  Greyware is dope. It needed limits. It can't be wireless. It must be obvious. There are some lore reasons which may not be ovbious yet. Still, as intended, if you CAN take it as obvious, AND do so, then that qualifies it for Greyware. However, unless there is also a wireless bonus to the ware, it cannot be taken as greyware.

MUST have the normal ability to be taken wireless. MUST be obvious whether the normal ware is obvious or not.

If the ware CANNOT be obvious, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CANNOT be wireless, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CAN be wireless AND CAN be obvious, it CAN be greyware.

Given that:
what 'ware can be "obvious"? I'll wager you and I are going to disagree, because from a descriptive sense I'd say any cyberware can be described as having an obvious appearance.
what 'ware can be "wireless"?  Sure, the intent is that "wireless component" means that there's an explicit wireless bonus listed.

So if the first criterion (it's "obvious") means basically every piece of cybertech ever, it's just coming down to everything with a wireless bonus is eligible for greware, natch?
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #25 on: <11-30-18/1632:01> »
Author here.  Greyware is dope. It needed limits. It can't be wireless. It must be obvious. There are some lore reasons which may not be ovbious yet. Still, as intended, if you CAN take it as obvious, AND do so, then that qualifies it for Greyware. However, unless there is also a wireless bonus to the ware, it cannot be taken as greyware.

MUST have the normal ability to be taken wireless. MUST be obvious whether the normal ware is obvious or not.

If the ware CANNOT be obvious, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CANNOT be wireless, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CAN be wireless AND CAN be obvious, it CAN be greyware.

Am I parsing that right, that you need a wireless bonus on the ware that you can lose and it has to be ware that has external components that can be displayed?

I'm hard pressed to come up with gear in the core book that will fullfill those requirements


Datajack and Skilljack as well as Fingertip Compartment are the only cybernetic augments that are externally visible and who have a wireless bonus. Technically a smuggling compartment would qualify as well but then, what's the point.

Cyberlimbs don't have a wireless bonus at all, so they are right out just like cyber eyes and ears
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Hobbes

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« Reply #26 on: <11-30-18/1654:12> »
Author here.  Greyware is dope. It needed limits. It can't be wireless. It must be obvious. There are some lore reasons which may not be ovbious yet. Still, as intended, if you CAN take it as obvious, AND do so, then that qualifies it for Greyware. However, unless there is also a wireless bonus to the ware, it cannot be taken as greyware.

MUST have the normal ability to be taken wireless. MUST be obvious whether the normal ware is obvious or not.

If the ware CANNOT be obvious, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CANNOT be wireless, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CAN be wireless AND CAN be obvious, it CAN be greyware.

I think Jack hit everything in the CRB that qualifies.  Honest question, what Cyberware did you envision as Greyware?  That may be more useful than stating what isn't intended to be Greyware.  At least let the Errata team know which bits were intended to be Greyware. 

Also, probably worth mentioning if it's not an explicitly an option at chargen it's really going to be a rare thing.  It's rare to see significant changes in Cyberware in a character during play.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #27 on: <11-30-18/1705:24> »
Well in the course of the thread I have to admit that it's a lot more fuzzy than I first imagined.

The issues:

RAI is that only cyberware with a wireless bonus qualify.  The RAW got published as "anything with a wireless component" which in turn means "basically every piece of cyberware qualifies for the first criterion" because everything in the sixth world has a wireless function... even your underwear has a wireless function.

The meaning of the term "obvious" for the other criterion.  As discussed upthread, it simply has to be a descriptive term. Which in turn means in effect anything can be implanted in such a way you can tell it's there.. even if it doesn't break the skin.  And there's another dimension to "obvious"... it doesn't necessarily mean you have to physically SEE it for it to be obvious.  Wired Reflexes, for example, are "obvious" even if they don't put physical chrome up and down your neck and spine because your behavior with them switched on is easy to discern from someone who doesn't have Wired Reflexes.
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Marcus

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« Reply #28 on: <11-30-18/1846:29> »
I like a good rules argument as much as the next guy, you have gotten so nit picky, you guys apparently can't see the forest for the trees. It's clearly true you can lead the horse to the water but you can't make'em drink. It matters not at all whether we agree on what is or what is not obvious. The GM at the table can read the rule and make their determination. As the game has always been intended.

In general for me it will simply be Bioware can't be Grey.

Honestly I don't understand how you guy are reaching your conclusions. Cybereyes are clearly obvious and wireless, otherwise you wouldn't have a smartlink bonus. But you do you and if you can't handle Greyware, it's ok the armor add on is very clear.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #29 on: <11-30-18/1857:50> »
Honestly I don't understand how you guy are reaching your conclusions. Cybereyes are clearly obvious and wireless, otherwise you wouldn't have a smartlink bonus. But you do you and if you can't handle Greyware, it's ok the armor add on is very clear.

The problem is "obvious" is an opinion based word*.  And two different people may not agree on what is obvious.

For me the issue with the rules is the best way to read it, it basically means every cyberware qualifies... which clearly flies in the face of the RAI.

Personally, I'm fine with that.  I'm down with all cyberware being eligible for greyware grade, but when grayware it must both be obvious to an observer (even if it could normally/usually be subtle) and it must lose all wireless functions/bonuses.  But that's my interpretation, and others may not like it or even agree it's fair or even sound.  Hence the thread...


*Edit: of course "obvious" could also be a crunch word, meaning cyberware that explicitly comes as "obvious".  So, just cyberlimbs and only cyberlimbs... but I think everyone agrees that can't be the correct interpretation.
« Last Edit: <11-30-18/1900:04> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.