[Aria]

So the rules bit talk about it being both obvious and having a WiFi bonus? An admittedly quick check suggests that there isn’t much that has both?? Even obvious limbs don’t have a WiFi bonus??

So what can it be applied to?

Thanks

[PiXeL01]

It’s either. The standard cyberware need to hold either feature to qualify for Grey rating. Limbs are in

[Ixal]

It’s either. The standard cyberware need to hold either feature to qualify for Grey rating. Limbs are in

That certainly makes more sense.
Are people already putting together a errata documemt for this? Currently it specifically says obvious and wireless.

I would have interpreted it as any obvious cyberlimb which can take modifications that are wireless. But obvious or wireless certainly makes it more simple.

[Michael Chandra]

What's the phrasing like? All obvious and wireless cyberware qualifies as grey, or Grey cyberware is cyberware that's obvious and has a wireless bonus?

[PiXeL01]

Quote p. 158:
*GreyWare always counts as obvious cyberware when applicable and never provides wireless bonuses. If a piece of cyberware cannot be obvious and has no wireless component, it cannot be taken as GreyWare. Further, in addition to Magic lost due to decreased Essence, Awakened characters lose an additional point of Magic, as well as a one-point reduction in their maximum Magic, per item of GreyWare installed.

In my non-native opinion that means a piece of cyberware must qualify with either feature.

[Beta]

Pixie just beat me to the quote -- and I fully agree with his interpretation.

I suppose what can be obvious is up for discussion with your GM a bit.  I'm thinking:

- obvious limbs:  are obvious, no problem.
- wired reflexes: not obvious, but have a wireless component, so is OK.
- muscle replacement: no wireless ... but could be obvious, in that bad superhero art sort of way or weirdly popping out muscles where people don't normally show anything?  But I'd call that 'discuss with your GM' territory.
- bone lining: can't be obvious, no wireless, not eligible.
- cybereyes, cyberears: can be made obvious.  Discuss with your GM on how obvious is obvious (your eyes have a 'Grey Brothers' mark around the iris?  Or your eyes are bulging out lenses fitting over the eye socket?)
etc.

[Ixal]

Quote p. 158:
*GreyWare always counts as obvious cyberware when applicable and never provides wireless bonuses. If a piece of cyberware cannot be obvious and has no wireless component, it cannot be taken as GreyWare. Further, in addition to Magic lost due to decreased Essence, Awakened characters lose an additional point of Magic, as well as a one-point reduction in their maximum Magic, per item of GreyWare installed.

In my non-native opinion that means a piece of cyberware must qualify with either feature.

When I think about it you are correct.
But for clarity that should probably be reworded into "Only cyberware that can be made obvious, provides a wireless bonus or both can be taken as GreyWare."

[Finstersang]

I figured that Greyware is supposed to be some kind of retro-cyberpunk ware, like the the Cybereyes from Batou (Ghost in Shell). I quite like the idea to give the PCs the option to forgo conceilability for a different benefit, although I don´t understand why they had to drag wireless functionality into this and tie all of it to a specific manufacturer. The fluff section in Body Shop already mentioned a new trend of "Exoware" that goes pretty much into the same direction.

At my tables, I already introduced (overly) obvious Cyberware as an alternative drawback for used ware, instead of the higher essence costs or glitchy functions. Makes sense: If you are augmented with some brand of vintage Wired Reflexes that have some chrome and wires sticking out of your back and neck, the materials and the augmentation process itself may be more invasive than newer models, but this is offset by the fact that the system is not fully embedded in your body. Fluff-wise, greyware is not used ware, but the same logic might apply here.

[Marcus]

It simply to limit the type of ware that can be grey. It’s not a big deal.

[Mollari]

Sorry guys, but which book is grey-cyberware in?

Am I a book behind lol?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Sorry guys, but which book is grey-cyberware in?

Am I a book behind lol?

Sounds like you are.

Better than Bad came out last week. It's got some real game changers beyond greyware grade cyberware... there's a toxin that turns mages into mundane for a few hours, and a hacker quality that every hacker ever played will be buying. At least until such time they realize that for 2 points it's a "you're doing it wrong if you don't buy it" quality and errata the karma cost...

[Mollari]

Thanks DR

Made my day

[Finstersang]

The german version reads as follows (I´ll give my best to re-translate it):

"If an implant can´t be obvious and offers and doesn´t offer a WiFi-bonus, it can´t be chosen as Greyware."

There´s two parts that might be prone to conflicting interpretations here:

• "If an implant can´t be obvious...": Depending on the phrasing in the original text (which I don´t know),  this may lead to the assumption that the implant has to be an obvious one in the first place. Consequently, Wireless Reflexes wouldn´t qualify. However, WR may not be obvious by default, but they can be re-imagined in a more crude, obvious facion, with cables and chrome sticking out of your spine. Same for other stuff that´s usually hidden, like Cybersenses or even Weapons. I think that Greyware is mostly a means to reward you for showing your chrome (besides being able to seduce Augmentation fetishists  )
• The "and": This is more difficult. I´d like to read it as a boolean "and": Only if both statements are true, the ware can´t be taken as greyware. But I may be mistaken here. Assuming  I´m right on both parts: What kind of ware neither grants a wireless bonus nor can be constructed in a way that´s somewhat obvious? The only thing that comes to mind is stuff like Bone Lacing.

[Opti]

Author here.  Greyware is dope. It needed limits. It can't be wireless. It must be obvious. There are some lore reasons which may not be ovbious yet. Still, as intended, if you CAN take it as obvious, AND do so, then that qualifies it for Greyware. However, unless there is also a wireless bonus to the ware, it cannot be taken as greyware.

MUST have the normal ability to be taken wireless. MUST be obvious whether the normal ware is obvious or not.

If the ware CANNOT be obvious, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CANNOT be wireless, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CAN be wireless AND CAN be obvious, it CAN be greyware.

[Beta]

Opti: that may be what you intended, but what was actually printed was:

"If a piece of cyberware cannot be obvious and has no wireless component, it cannot be taken as GreyWare."  Which by standard rules of english grammar (and formal logic, for that matter) pretty clearly means that if it can be obvious OR it normally has a wireless component, it can be greyware. (notA AND notB = notC implies that C=A OR B).

Sounds like something for the errata team (and the Missions team), because most people won't be looking in this thread, they'll just be reading the book.

Another good clarification would be whether wireless functionality means specifically get a note of a wireless on bonus, or if it is literally any wireless functionality.  For example, I don't think cyber-eyes get a wireless bonus, but image link may normally operate through wireless connections.  So do eyes qualify, if made obvious?

I'd love to see some suggestions from people on what 'ware could be made to work with this. Depending ont he question above maybe eyes or ears.  Limbs, muscle replacement, dermal plating and bone-lacing are all clearly out.  Anyone have ideas on how wired reflexes could be made obvious?