Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: topcat on <08-08-19/1403:30>
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Now that a bunch of us have had the opportunity to look over the rules, what are some of the things that you think are out of balance, leading to a clear meta in the game?
Attribute priorities were my immediate red flag. I can't imagine making a character without Attributes A right now and anything below B is a crime against chargen.
Magicians seem relatively unchanged from SR5, with some slight buffs in combat spells and some nerfs in utility spells. Spirits keep them at the top of the runner heap. MysAds used to game the action economy in chargen, but the new action economy limits those benefits. Still good, but not as good as they were before out of the box.
PhysAds overtake Street Samurai even more than they had in SR5. Initiation is now cheaper and they can still take power points from initiation. They also have combat sense that increases their defense pools, not just their defense ratings. Put it all together and PAs can easily become unhittable edge factories. Sammies get a nice set of rebalanced augs and access to more stuff right out of chargen, but it's not enough, particularly with the priority system's demand for attributes eating into available resources.
Deckers' programs and agents seem to put them ahead of Technomancers complex forms and sprites, but I'm not sold on that yet and won't be til I see both in play. Probably not a huge advantage.
Sorry, Riggers. Just... sorry.
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PP from Initiation was in SR5, no?
A VR Rigger now knows exactly what they can do and that Control Rig really helps with the Edge. Plus repairs are not bankruptcy level anymore.
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PP from Initiation was in SR5, no?
Yes, but initiation cost more in SR5. The only thing holding back PhysAds now is the time it takes to initiate.
A VR Rigger now knows exactly what they can do and that Control Rig really helps with the Edge. Plus repairs are not bankruptcy level anymore.
I guess, but the cost/benefit of the archetype is still terrible.
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I'd argue they don't need that control rig at max rating and at least it gives them a dicepool bonus. Plus they no longer have to worry about being crippled by damage financially so they can actually save up.
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Attributes A is hard to argue against for a mundane... but as a magician your magic priority is a huge concern since you can't buy more PPs/Spells in chargen. You can still take Attributes A as a magician, but it has a real opportunity cost incurred.
As for riggers: depending on how some matrix rule clarifications play out, they potentially stand to make out like bandits. OTOH, I'm actually going to miss the chase rules, but apparently I'm the only one who can say that so que sera sera. And yes, repairs not inherently costing nuyen is a huge improvement too. And an arcane rules point in 6we in Riggers' favor as a pet class: While "Angel Summoners" will always outshine Riggers and their drones, at least in this edition riggers can do something summoners can't... gain edge through their pets' actions!
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Plus they no longer have to worry about being crippled by damage financially so they can actually save up.
And yes, repairs not inherently costing nuyen is a huge improvement too.
While y'all are patting each other on the back, I'd point out that you are forgetting history. (Will you repeat it?)
The bankrupting repair rules were not in the Core Rule Book in 5e.
They didn't come out until Rigger 5.
I won't say it will happen in 6th, but there is still a chance of Catalyst [shafting] Riggers and their mothers again in 6th.
So, put a pin in those celebrations until we are sure.
[xxx] - Edited by SR Mod
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Attribute priority A, Skill priority B and Metatype priority C is very strong, karma wise, and might very well turn out to be the new meta in SR6.
Muscle will probably go for two major actions as soon as possible.
I don't think we will see so much heavy armored shadowrunners (with milspec armor, ballistic face masks or helmets and stuff). I welcome this. Rather I think we will see the return of the iconic Street Samurai with an armored jacket having both an assault rifle and a Katana (where the katana will be used quite a lot during close encounters, even if he only have strength 3-4, unlike previous edition).
Actually, now when armor might play a smaller part than it maybe did before I think we will probably see a lot of in-game characters that actually match all them drawings that are out there which I think will be refreshing.
Unarmed trolls hitting through brick walls with their bare fists will be a thing in SR6 (I welcome this). Hulk smash! Also Troll Bows....
Matrix seem to be on a level that the general population will actually understand and with a level complexity that mean you can actually resolve it quickly without bogging down the entire session.
Speaking of matrix. I think we will have hybrid deckers in this edition. Decking require less resources (but more essence) and basically only two (or three if you count Engineering) skills. This will free up some some priority options that might allow them to branch in different directions. Will see if I can re-create my burned-out physical adept gunslinger decker in this edition.
I think we might also see a lot more high body orc and troll magicians in this edition.
Speaking of magicians, focused concentration seem to be pretty buff in this edition...
Things we will not see in this edition (unless things change):
Characters going for Attribute priority E
Aspected conjurers or enchanters with Magic or Resonance priority above D.
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Samurai join riggers as a 'dead' archetype. In the sense they are playable but a Samurai now noticably underpreforms vs every other PC. Their 'ware isn't impactful and doesn't change outcomes in any meaningful way; a face that specs into combat is as good as a Samurai. I did a lot of math that I am going to cross link from here (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29520.msg521221#msg521221) but the tl;dr is that even vs the most extreme enemies that SR has soak 'ware and extra body doesn't matter compared to just being able to pump 7 defense dice into your defense test via full defense, which any PC can do with 'wired 3.
Magicrun is sorta interesting. Despite the actually broken things about mages getting fixed from 5e (Mainly sustaining buffs are really bad now. Good. Good choice. Good riddance) because the power level of everything dropped and spirits really didn't mages probably remain the strongest archetype and got STRONGER in some ways because A: Multisummoning, while weaker than binding (because binding let you have multiple oversummoned spirits with drain being irrelevant due to the magic of downtime healing, thus allowing a mage to 'summon' like 3 force 8 spirits for 0 drain) still is very convenient and isn't too meaningful a downgrade, and B: Low force spirits are MUCH stronger than they used to be. Like getting a spirit immune to AR fire in 5e was a force 12 proposition, in SR6 it is fine to just summon a force 4-5. Drain is now easier as well.
Hackers are weird because their main buy ins kiiiinda got cheaper but in reality their total buy in got higher. But their target dicepools got lower and hacking is less a PITA. Hackers still suffer from the 'what is it good for?' problem in that hacking mostly exists to interact with the matrix and very little is focused on like... how hackers can actually do things on runs. It suffers therefore from the identical problem of the 5e matrix: Hackers have a lot of rules and tools for dealing with the things BLOCKING them, but not a lot to do after they use those tools. So they probably will be a half dead archetype again, hackers were NOT popular PCs on the LCs by any stretch, they probably were like 5% of characters despite many games literally having an automatic pick for hacker PCs: They just weren't good because they didn't DO anything.
So we are probably looking at the most sparse edition of SR in terms of archetypes: Its basically looking to be summoner mages and face-off sams. Which is what SR5 devolved into, but at least classic samurai were fun and did something better than faces.
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Magic is the new meta. (surprise! 8))
Want to fight?
- Adept is better than Sam in every way now, by RAW, they can install ware with no drawback (or even gain benefice from it).
So, they're literally samurai plus. And soak is dead, too. It's time to dodge, which sam can't do (stack it more! Combat Sense!).
Want to hack?
- Technomancer are better than Decker in every way, too.
They can increase their matrix attribute beyond anything decker can hope for + can cast techno magic + can summon techno spirit.
Only way decker can compete, is to tap into the realm of magic, to became adept hacker, no drawback from install ware for adept, remember?
Want to magic?
- There is no better time to play M.A.G.I.C. than this time.
Spirit is unkillable, or if they're killed by some evil mundane doing suicide bomb with frag grenade,
you can unkilled them by summoning another. Mundane need to know their place, ya know?
Focused concentration 3 let you sustain THREE spells without a single drawback.
+4 to WILL, +4 to CHA/LOG, for +8 to resist drain! Don't let some lame drain mechanic stop you from doing M.A.G.I.C.
And for 3rd slot, throw in Improved Reflexes 2 to get that 2nd Major actions.
See? mundane loser, I can do what you can achievement with all your money and soul, just by a fingers snap!!
In other edition, magician may be just only the best one, now they can be the only one.
Want to rigged?
- ...........Wait? you're telling me there is somethings magic couldn't do? What madness is this!
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Ok Ok just play riggers, they're the only one that good at rigging.
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huh? They're not? 6E Rigger isn't even good at rigging?
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All of you already have access to the rules? :( Lucky.
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Demo Agents and Errata Team received access, and from what I hear 850 copies sold at GenCon in the first 24h.
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One of my professors actually went to gencon and I made the 2 hour trip to my campus to read it for a day! So I spent all of yesterday reading it.
Gotta admit I spent less time with the matrix than doing combat math cuz obviously edge was the biggest change, so take my matrix hottakes with a grain of salt!
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...which any PC can do with 'wired 3.
Since which edition do any of the other roles (besides Muscle - i.e. Face, Magician, Rigger, Hacker) get Wired 3??? ;-)
Hackers still suffer from the 'what is it good for?'
What do you mean? Hackers are useful in almost every scene (except maybe the combat scene, but then again Muscle is pretty much only useful in the combat scene - and they need their 15 minutes of scene time, too).
You play a hacker because they are the best role in the team for searching the matrix to gather information, one of the best roles when it comes to legwork and getting the lay of the land, getting blueprints and patrol schedules. They can snoop camera feeds and commlink communication, open maglocks, control elevators, turn off alarms, control lights, edit out the team in real-time as they walk pass a security camera, control sensors, hack enemy drones and automated sentry turrets and turn them against their owner, ... the list goes on and on.
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...which any PC can do with 'wired 3.
Since which edition do any of the other roles (besides Muscle - i.e. Face, Magician, Rigger, Hacker) get Wired 3??? ;-)
Well optimization in 4e and 5e included getting 2 extra passes. While wired 3 is a bit more than any role got, the rewards are much higher now as it is pretty much necessary for getting acceptable defenses.
Faces in particular are somewhat famous for how absolutely trivial their 'ware and nuyen costs are, which is why the 'meta' builds in SR5 pretty much have a face running muscle toner 24/7. I didn't get a good look at drugs, but if drugs are as good as they were, the requirements go lower.
The point being, sitting at 2 majors 1 minor is so good that it basically is the 'peak' of combat capability, and its trivial for every role to get. And we have seen metas where it was more expensive than this to get good at fighting and faces and deckers made the sacrifice. 4e comes to mind immediately, the essence buy in to survive combat was 4 with almost all of your nuyen budget and faces went in on that because being able to survive a fight is too high value.
The issue here to be cognicant of isn't that non-samurai can get good at fighting mind, is the 'baseline' combat package is way too high value compared to the 'specialist' package. 6e essentially set it so that for 200k and 3 ess, which is not as big a price as you think, you can get damage immunity. As opposed to 5e, 4e, and 3e where the buy in for combat cability was way more granular (though in different ways, 5e had basic combat capability essentially at 2 passes and a quality, while 4e required you to hit some odd 30 soak) because things past the minimum buy ins mattered. There is no equivalent of going 'past' that barrier, your either unable to fight because you can't full defense, or you are able to fight in 6e because you can.
You play a hacker because they are the best role in the team for searching the matrix to gather information, one of the best roles when it comes to legwork and getting the lay of the land, getting blueprints and patrol schedules. They can snoop camera feeds and commlink communication, open maglocks, control elevators, turn off alarms, control lights, edit out the team in real-time as they walk pass a security camera, control sensors, hack enemy drones and automated sentry turrets and turn them against their owner, ... the list goes on and on.
In order:
Legwork: Faces can do this just as well. Also it isn't generally worth specializing to google. The fact agents are gone may make this somewhat better but faces can trivially do this through contacts.
>They can snoop camera feeds and commlink communication
Snooping Camera feeds still isn't good in 6e from what I saw. Same with comms.
>open maglocks
They are still worse at this than lockpicking.
>control elevators
Very niche. Especially because if you are physically sneaking using an Elevator is a terrible idea and if you are socially sneaking you should be able to legit use that elevator. I mean it isn't hard to climb 3 stories in 3 seconds and sneak at the same time with SR's system.
>turn off alarms
Once an alarm has went off turning it off is low utility. While you can probably turn off physical button presses it isn't really possible to stop all comms communication in a building.
>control lights
This was never very useful (it is more overt than just sneaking normally and in combat isn't as good as just tossing thermal smoke and firing via ultrasound) and literally has been nerfed this edition via edge changes. If you are trying to block vision, just use thermal smoke, especially as 4/5 metatypes do not care about darkness.
>edit out the team in real-time as they walk pass a security camera
Stealthing around a camera is better at avoiding detection and lower risk than trying to hack the camera. Against the corpsec camera operator I am only being resisted by some odd 5 dice, hacking the camera has more risk, its literally harder than just not doing it.
> hack enemy drones and automated sentry turrets
Or you could just shoot them.
The payoff for hacking is extremely low for the level of effort, especially because 6e keeps trying to prevent the main benefit of hacking, remote access, from being a thing. Like if you have to physically sneak into a building anyway to get a chance to hack cameras... you can also just sneak past the cameras. Cameras are just a perception test on a wall, if you are good enough to sneak past the corpsec operating them they don't do anything besides let the corpsec be in more places. Unless I missed something hackers still lack any real proactive power plays to make. So much of what the decker does is just strictly inferior to doing the things without hacking.
This isn't to say hackers need to blow everyone away forever with what they do. Faces don't. Its just that they lack a high point where a hacker is definitely more useful than what any other archetype can do in a major way. It isn't that hackers are incompetent or transparently terrible, unlike Samurai they DO do something different than other PCs and have changes in their outcomes. It is that you probably would want to be literally anything else before a hacker.
Like if a Samurai is just a slower, larger, gas guzzling car with less seating and cargo room compared to a face, the hacker is the same but at least they are physically smaller so sometimes you can squeeze into a parking space you normally couldn't.
Don't know if that metaphor made sense but that is a good way to think of the opportunity cost of roles. Not just 'what can I do?' but 'what COULD I be doing instead?' A hacker CAN turn out the lights, but they COULD just 100% turn off vision for anyone who doesn't have sensor based vision which is way stronger AND cheaper to do. A hacker CAN loop cameras, but they COULD just sneak past the cameras at much lower risk to themselves and the team.
I will reiterate again though I didn't go too in depth with the matrix. I just confirmed hackers mostly had the same capabilities they had in 5e, and their buy ins didn't get low enough to really allow sub-roles, and because its harder for hackers to be capable physically due to the massive nerf to gear in 6e (specifically things like worn armor) we can be pretty sure they are going to get worse from the edition they were at their weakest in. They probably play and feel better, but in the terms of THE META they are going to likely be as sidelined as they were in 5e or more so.
Which is better than 4e's "If you aren't a rigger/hacker hybrid who mostly just uploads software to stuff, uses drones that out soak all but the most min-maxed samurai, and never rolls their own skills you aren't meta because hacking is too potent, broad, cheap, time consuming, and impactful" but, you know, isn't ideal either.
I suspect hackers are going to have more fun this edition than samurai just because the matrix seemed way less soul crushing than 5e's. But this thread is about THE META. And on top of that if a character type is TOO low powered that does affect how fun they are at the table. I can't say if hackers will fall below the '5e pure adept threshold' when they actively aren't enjoyable to play just because you feel too wimpy to contribute to scenes or have cool moments compared to everyone else, but I can say with quite a bit of confidence they are, in fact, not a very strong archetype in 6e.
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Demo Agents and Errata Team received access, and from what I hear 850 copies sold at GenCon in the first 24h.
Y’all sold so many of the standard edition on Friday that a friend of mine who was there had to get me the special edition book :3
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Oh, and one last thing Re: Face+Mage meta.
Social Stealth vs Physical Stealth. Physical Stealth didn't just get hit with the nerf bat. It got hit with one of those cool giant nerf sniper rifles that never actually work.
Basically there are two ways to conceal your illicit activities on a run: Blend in, or not be seen, basically either con+etiquette or sneaking. Both have/had their advantages. It is fully possible to switch between them (Sneak in, stash your big gear, put on suit. Or slip away, hide, put on body armor) but if you planned to do that you still leaned social (Its harder to gear up than to gear down once your actively sneaking about) and most PCs leaned hard one way or the other.
Social Stealth allowed you to proactively use your stealth to directly influence your environment, but required you to have significantly less armor than other runners and use smaller, worse weapons, and the environment could more easily influence you, and you were much more isolated from the team. Physical stealth allowed you to go in with full kit, a holdout pistol was equally subtle as an HMG to a physical stealth pistol, because you don't gotta make palming tests if no one ever sees you at all, and you could carry a satchel full of breaching charges, some jammers, whatever. You also could more easily support other team members because you could stop what you were doing at any time to do something else. But you couldn't as easily change your environment, you had to avoid it.
SR6 SIGNIFICANTLY affected the balance of power here in 3 major ways:
1: Most DV comes from net hits now. This means smaller weapons are much better.
2: Armor is much less useful. This means both the fact social stealth isolates you and strips you of defenses no longer is as relevant. The cost is way lower when there isn't meaningful difference between social armor like bodysuits and actioneer, and samurai armor like full body armor or sleeping tiger. Before you were dropping enough soak for handguns to realistically 2 shot you on hit, now your likely not even losing edge generation when attacked.
3: The merging of firearm skills means its really easy for a face or mage to go from their handgun to a full AR or shotgun ahead of time. You can, in essence, 'plan for loud' at no opportunity cost as a social PC. A physical PC meanwhile can't invert this: They can use handguns and the like, but they don't automatically get their utility.
Riggers, Samurai, and Hackers lean towards physical stealth. Samurai for obvious reasons (Big guns and agility scores of 12 make you the lovechild of TF2's Heavy and Batman), Riggers likewise (Hard to palm a rotodrone under your shirt, better to sneak about with flyspies and then 'go in hot' with drones later). Hackers are physical stealth less because they physically sneak around and more because hackers work remotely, in spaces they control, and 'project' themselves without social cover to other spaces. So a hacker sitting in the back of the van or in a secure room inside a facility plugged into something they shouldn't be may as well carry a shotgun with full body armor for protection with like 5 smartgun platforms covering every door.
Faces use social stealth for obvious reasons. Mages likewise gravitate towards it because A: Charisma is a mage attribute while agility isn't even used by them for combat, and B: A big advantage of magic is you don't need big guns to do lots of damage and you have a samurai hiding in your pocket at all times in the form of spirits.
So this increase of power in social stealth without meaningful physical stealth power increases is another strong indicator we will be in a face+mage meta.
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Plus they no longer have to worry about being crippled by damage financially so they can actually save up.
And yes, repairs not inherently costing nuyen is a huge improvement too.
While y'all are patting each other on the back, I'd point out that you are forgetting history. (Will you repeat it?)
The bankrupting repair rules were not in the Core Rule Book in 5e.
They didn't come out until Rigger 5.
I won't say it will happen in 6th, but there is still a chance of Catalyst [shafting] Riggers and their mothers again in 6th.
So, put a pin in those celebrations until we are sure.
XX edited by mod
Ah, the glorious dumbsterfire that was Rigger 5.0 ;D
Imagine waiting years for a supplement for your neglected favourite Archetype and the supplement actually makes it worse.
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If I recall the repair rules were in Run and Gun. A classic example of "Just because your idea is neat does not mean its good."
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While by no means is this always a "family-friendly" forum, please watch the language. I've gone in and edited a reported post that crossed the line.
SR Mod
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The more I think about magicians at chargen, the more I lean toward A-Attributes, B-Skills, C-Race, D-Magic, E-Resources. Sure, you start with 2 spells (Heal & Control Actions?), but you can still max your magic. Set aside 30 karma from chargen for 6 more spells and you'll have them within ~2 weeks of training.
The overall karma savings are enormous compared to speccing Magic any higher. Feels a bit trash to build like that, but the alternative is pretty awful. You have to really be in love with those extra day one spells to go any other way.
This edition REALLY needs karmagen and/or pointgen as quickly as possible.
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"The Meta" is still Mystic Adept or Mage. Hasn't changed.
For a non-mage character? A Stats, B Resources, C Skills, D Resonance, E Elf. Be an Elf Face with a splash of Gunbunny and grow into the Hacker stuff post-chargen.
Bone Density 4 Alpha
Muscle Replace 3 Used
Synaptic Booster 2 Used
Pheromones 4 Used
226000 Nuyen 5.25 Essence. Touch on the slow side for a Gunbunny but you should be fast enough.
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"The Meta" is still Mystic Adept or Mage. Hasn't changed.
What am I missing on MysAds? I'm having trouble finding a reason to take them over a full Magician.
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The more I think about magicians at chargen, the more I lean toward A-Attributes, B-Skills, C-Race, D-Magic, E-Resources. Sure, you start with 2 spells (Heal & Control Actions?), but you can still max your magic. Set aside 30 karma from chargen for 6 more spells and you'll have them within ~2 weeks of training.
The overall karma savings are enormous compared to speccing Magic any higher. Feels a bit trash to build like that, but the alternative is pretty awful. You have to really be in love with those extra day one spells to go any other way.
This edition REALLY needs karmagen and/or pointgen as quickly as possible.
A Magic, B Attributes, C Resources, D Skills, E Meta, Focused Concentration 3. You only need 11 Skills points and to max out your two drain stats. Buy a nice car and a Force 5 Power Foci. Win at Magicrun.
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"The Meta" is still Mystic Adept or Mage. Hasn't changed.
What am I missing on MysAds? I'm having trouble finding a reason to take them over a full Magician.
Nothing much, the difference between a Mysad and a Mage isn't all that significant. Which is why they're both at the top.
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"The Meta" is still Mystic Adept or Mage. Hasn't changed.
What am I missing on MysAds? I'm having trouble finding a reason to take them over a full Magician.
Nothing much, the difference between a Mysad and a Mage isn't all that significant. Which is why they're both at the top.
Maybe? MysAds are definitely better than PhysAds, though, which will knock the PhysAds down my rankings. A MysAd is a PhysAd that gets Astral Perception and access to sorcery/Conjuring/Enchanting at no additional cost. Sure, you won't have any spells at the start, but those are cheap.
EDIT: MysAds can't get power points from initiating, they have to buy magic up, so PhysAds do still have a place, but it's not at chargen.
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The more I think about magicians at chargen, the more I lean toward A-Attributes, B-Skills, C-Race, D-Magic, E-Resources. Sure, you start with 2 spells (Heal & Control Actions?), but you can still max your magic. Set aside 30 karma from chargen for 6 more spells and you'll have them within ~2 weeks of training.
The overall karma savings are enormous compared to speccing Magic any higher. Feels a bit trash to build like that, but the alternative is pretty awful. You have to really be in love with those extra day one spells to go any other way.
This edition REALLY needs karmagen and/or pointgen as quickly as possible.
Same. Spells I’d go improved attribute and an attack. Rely on summoning a bit but have rock solid defense your first run or two. 8 attribute points especially when the next step is 16 is rough. Doable as a meta and a decent racial priority.
C race the main question is do you want to go edge or meta. I hate playing meta races but getting a 8 charisma for a shaman or a 9 body hermetic is pretty solid. Probably better than 6 edge. But I really don’t know how important starting at a high edge is yet.
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Set aside 30 karma from chargen for 6 more spells and you'll have them within ~2 weeks of training.
Wait, you can save up karma from chagen to be used in game? :o
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Strictly with RAW though, you can't bond with that focus at chargen. It technically doesn't say you are forbidden, but the Karma section only specifies Atts, Skills, Qualities and Resources as the spends.
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Set aside 30 karma from chargen for 6 more spells and you'll have them within ~2 weeks of training.
Wait, you can save up karma from chagen to be used in game? :o
Not specified right now. So I doubt the clarified rules will let you carry massive amounts over.