Was my wording off, or were a lot of people surprised that sixth edition was more popular than they thought it would be? I suspect a lot of people are feeling shocked that Sixth World is the number one download on DriveThruRPG ever since it came out.
| Position | Title | Score | Number of ratings | Release date |
| 1 | Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit | 4.8/5 | 42 | August 01, 2019 |
| 2 | Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook | 2.8/5 | 19 | August 26, 2019 |
| 3 | Eclipse Phase Second Edition | 5/5 | 13 | August 09, 2019 |
| 4 | Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone | 5/5 | 2 | August 27, 2019 |
| 5 | The Short Games Digest: Volume 2 | 5/5 | 5 | September 09, 2019 |
| 6 | Bayt al Azif #2: A magazine for Cthulhu Mythos roleplaying games | n/a | n/a | September 09, 2019 |
| 7 | Stars Without Number: Revised Edition | 4.9/5 | 154 | December 29, 2017 |
| 8 | Occult Philosophy | 5/5 | 24 | July 29, 2019 |
| 9 | Rangers of Shadow Deep: Ghost Stone | 4.3/5 | 3 | August 02, 2019 |
| 10 | Esper Genesis 5E Threats Database | 5/5 | 6 | August 15, 2019 |
| 11 | Rangers of Shadow Deep: A Tabletop Adventure Game | 4.8/5 | 62 | November 02, 2018 |
| 12 | Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. The Second Edition, Version 2.01 | 4.5/5 | 79 | March 09, 2014 |
| 13 | Lords and Lands: a Witcher TRPG Expansion | 3.3/5 | 12 | August 01, 2019 |
| 14 | Apocalypse World: Burned Over Hackbook | 5/5 | 3 | August 01, 2019 |
| 15 | Star Trek Adventures: Alpha Quadrant Source Book | 4.3/5 | 3 | July 25, 2019 |
Well, the reason the Cyberpunk Red retook the top spot is because they cut the price in half this past week.Incorrect. The PDF version was always $15, the $30 comparative price shown on DTRPG is for the physical release. Citation: many places, but for example, IGN (https://uk.ign.com/articles/2019/07/30/cyberpunk-red-jumpstart-kit-unboxing-content-impressions): "The digital edition, available as of August 1, 2019, will retail for $15.00 USD and the physical edition (available exclusively at GenCon 2019 initially then at your local hobby shop) will cost $29.99."
As for reviews... The Streetpedia, which everyone here loved, has a 2.9/5 rating.So there's nothing to see here, you think? Nothing worrying at all about those reviews?
Well, the reason the Cyberpunk Red retook the top spot is because they cut the price in half this past week.It's not as if the review-count is high enough to be significant. Plus a lot of people have 6w free through another store or official channels and cannot review it. So the review-score is just a number, not reliable at all. :-\
As for reviews... The Streetpedia, which everyone here loved, has a 2.9/5 rating.
It's not as if the review-count is high enough to be significant.I disagree, I think the sample size is becoming large enough. But sure, we can give it a few more weeks and check back in.
So the review-score is just a number, not reliable at all. :-\I imagine the review score is much more than "just a number" for potential purchasers browsing DTRPG. It's very prominent in the UI.
I'd love to see this revisited in another month.Your wish is my command ;)
That said what you don’t have is sales numbers.We have relative sales numbers. We know the Cyberpunk Red quick-start PDF is outselling the SR6 CRB PDF, despite the former having been out almost a month longer.
Just ignoring the review scores for a moment, just look at that top 3! Cyberpunk Red, Shadowrun and Eclipse Phase dominating the sales. Could this be a revival of the cyberpunk genre? Sure, new editions of course, but still.
Position Title Score Number of ratings Release date 1 Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit 4.8/5 42 August 01, 2019 2 Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook 2.8/5 19 August 26, 2019 3 Eclipse Phase Second Edition 5/5 13 August 09, 2019
My problem with this is that the distribution is not presented. At this moment, there are 22 reviews that give it a 3/5 star rating.Interesting. That means since I posted this thread, it's received three more reviews, and the mean has moved from 2.8 to 3.0.
Plus a lot of people have 6w free through another store or official channels and cannot review it.This would only matter if there's a cohort skew difference between people who got it from DTRPG and people who got it via other sources. Unless there's a reason for systemic bias I can't see, it's reasonable to assume the DTRPG purchasers are representative of purchasers on other platforms. Can you see a reason why DTRPG purchases would be more likely to leave a negative or positive review than purchasers through other channels?
Plus a lot of people have 6w free through another store or official channels and cannot review it.This would only matter if there's a cohort skew difference between people who got it from DTRPG and people who got it via other sources. Unless there's a reason for systemic bias I can't see, it's reasonable to assume the DTRPG purchasers are representative of purchasers on other platforms. Can you see a reason why DTRPG purchases would be more likely to leave a negative or positive review than purchasers through other channels?
Actually yes I can, people who only buy from the CGL store may be more positively biased, as well as a difference between people who only buy online when compared to people who only buy thru FLGS. There also very significant bias when you don't know the reasons for the reviews (good or bad) as well as a major deviation factor due to ratio of responses to sales. Not saying it wrong, but also says it does not represent the actual market either ... just missing too much data. The only thing this particular rating shows is that it is selling well on DTRPG.You can make all these arguments about the other games on the list, most of which are available digitally from other stores and I think all of which are available physically via FLGS. Yet we don't see a large number of negative reviews for any of the others. Why is Shadowrun 6e different?
Incorrect. The PDF version was always $15, the $30 comparative price shown on DTRPG is for the physical release. Citation: many places, but for example, IGN (https://uk.ign.com/articles/2019/07/30/cyberpunk-red-jumpstart-kit-unboxing-content-impressions): "The digital edition, available as of August 1, 2019, will retail for $15.00 USD and the physical edition (available exclusively at GenCon 2019 initially then at your local hobby shop) will cost $29.99."You're correct, the PDF price has always been $15.
So like, even if you don't draw the conclusion 'the book is bad' from the ratings (And, despite not liking the book, I agree you shouldn't, the review rating is very divorced from that and you can get a better idea of that from in depth actual written reviews and seeing how many people hit the same notes) this is still a pretty important piece of data any canny company should take on board and incorporate into their future plans.That is exactly what I think, including the important caveat about reading too much into this data point.
A few weeks ago, FastJack said:QuoteWas my wording off, or were a lot of people surprised that sixth edition was more popular than they thought it would be? I suspect a lot of people are feeling shocked that Sixth World is the number one download on DriveThruRPG ever since it came out.
This made me curious (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29987.msg524103;topicseen#msg524103) so I compiled a list of the top 10 on DTRPG at the time, complete with the star rating that is displayed next to each item. This wasn't a good showing for SR6, with a rating at the time of 3.4/5 -- the next lowest in the top 10 was 4.8/5.
However, that was based on a scant four days of sales, so I made a note to revisit it when a few weeks had passed. I've now done this, and here it is. As you can see, SR6e has fallen from the #1 spot and is receiving a bit of a kicking from DTRPG reviewers (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews.php?products_id=286850).
Position Title Score Number of ratings Release date 1 Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit 4.8/5 42 August 01, 2019 2 Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook 2.8/5 19 August 26, 2019 3 Eclipse Phase Second Edition 5/5 13 August 09, 2019 4 Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone 5/5 2 August 27, 2019 5 The Short Games Digest: Volume 2 5/5 5 September 09, 2019 6 Bayt al Azif #2: A magazine for Cthulhu Mythos roleplaying games n/a n/a September 09, 2019 7 Stars Without Number: Revised Edition 4.9/5 154 December 29, 2017 8 Occult Philosophy 5/5 24 July 29, 2019 9 Rangers of Shadow Deep: Ghost Stone 4.3/5 3 August 02, 2019 10 Esper Genesis 5E Threats Database 5/5 6 August 15, 2019 11 Rangers of Shadow Deep: A Tabletop Adventure Game 4.8/5 62 November 02, 2018 12 Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. The Second Edition, Version 2.01 4.5/5 79 March 09, 2014 13 Lords and Lands: a Witcher TRPG Expansion 3.3/5 12 August 01, 2019 14 Apocalypse World: Burned Over Hackbook 5/5 3 August 01, 2019 15 Star Trek Adventures: Alpha Quadrant Source Book 4.3/5 3 July 25, 2019
Also, by the logic you're presenting here, Shadowrun: Anarchy with it's 4.5/5 rating is a better version of Shadowrun.I am not presenting any logic. I am presenting data.
What is the purpose of sharing the data? When you release data, you are trying to prove a theory, correct? In this case, your theory is that Shadowrun 6E isn't any good and people should stop purchasing it so that Catalyst Game Labs stops production and sells off the IP to people that "know how to make the game". Correct?Also, by the logic you're presenting here, Shadowrun: Anarchy with it's 4.5/5 rating is a better version of Shadowrun.I am not presenting any logic. I am presenting data.
If the purpose is to convince CGL to do something different, things are already in the works. You're now asking them to halt production on at least two announced books, probably a half-dozen unannounced, so they can go back to the drawing board and rewrite the core rulebook for release sometime next year? That's a lot of money that's already been paid out that they would have to write off.
I agree, we should be focusing on righting the ship and getting this corrected. I know the Errata team is hard at work on these issues right now. What I don't appreciate is comments telling CGL to stop production and sell off the IP.If the purpose is to convince CGL to do something different, things are already in the works. You're now asking them to halt production on at least two announced books, probably a half-dozen unannounced, so they can go back to the drawing board and rewrite the core rulebook for release sometime next year? That's a lot of money that's already been paid out that they would have to write off.
To be fair, if the reception/sales for the core book are falling short of expectations, then taking time to revise/errata/fix the issues with it would probably do more to help future books. Both from a sales/marketing standpoint (righting the ship straight out of the harbor) and also from a game mechanics standpoint (so future books have more solid ground to stand on).
Its a matter of whether CGL thinks they will do better by continuing ahead with what they have, or making the changes they want/need to make now instead of later. In my experience with manufacturing, while the latter option seems like a giant pain in the ass, it almost always pans out better in the long run.
What is the purpose of mentioning the ToS? When you bring up the ToS, you are trying to send a warning, correct? In this case, your theory is that I'm breaching the ToS and should stop posting. Correct?
There are rules in the ToS about starting Flame Wars. Rules that I usually only enforce when things spiral way out of control. We've been down the road of people not liking this edition ever since they announced they were making a new edition. Many have received warnings, some have received bans. All because people are "presenting their data" to back up their opinion. My goal here as moderator isn't to shut down discussion of the game, but to keep the discussion from turning into "IS SO"/"IS NOT" arguments. Which is where this is leading since the people that like the changes and the people that don't aren't changing any minds on either side.
your theory is that Shadowrun 6E isn't any good and people should stop purchasing it so that Catalyst Game Labs stops production and sells off the IP to people that "know how to make the game"This is outright putting words into my mouth, FastJack. You've even used quote marks for something that I'm pretty sure I've never said. And you've completely misrepresented my position, then attacked it with barely-veiled threats that I'll shut up if I know what's good for me. Is there anything in the ToS about doing that?
Actually yes I can, people who only buy from the CGL store may be more positively biased, as well as a difference between people who only buy online when compared to people who only buy thru FLGS. There also very significant bias when you don't know the reasons for the reviews (good or bad) as well as a major deviation factor due to ratio of responses to sales. Not saying it wrong, but also says it does not represent the actual market either ... just missing too much data. The only thing this particular rating shows is that it is selling well on DTRPG.You can make all these arguments about the other games on the list, most of which are available digitally from other stores and I think all of which are available physically via FLGS. Yet we don't see a large number of negative reviews for any of the others. Why is Shadowrun 6e different?
Edit -- and why didn't these factors affect SR5, which stands at 4.1/5 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/115985/Shadowrun-Fifth-Edition-Core-Rulebook-Master-Index-Edition)?
What I don't appreciate is comments telling CGL to stop production and sell off the IP.Again: did I say that anywhere? Did anyone say it in this thread?
What I don't appreciate is comments telling CGL to stop production and sell off the IP.Again: did I say that anywhere? Did anyone say it in this thread?
My apologies Penllawen, I should have noted that others have said it in other threads, but I can see how it would be attributed to you in this thread. You made no such claims, and I inadvertently lumped you with those that did.What I don't appreciate is comments telling CGL to stop production and sell off the IP.Again: did I say that anywhere? Did anyone say it in this thread?
Honest question:
Did you say anything to this effect in any previous post?
I wonder how well 6e would have done as 'Advanced Anarchy.'Ehhh, I'm not convinced by this meme. I know before 6e was released a lot of the interviews with Hardy heavily featured the word "streamline", and I think the community got hold of the wrong end of that and thought 6e would be some sort of Anarchy-like thing. But I don't think this holds up to scrutiny, once you read the 6e book. Sure, there's plenty of places where the knottiest bits of 5e have been hacked back (the action economy and the Matrix are the most successful examples to my mind.) But when you dig in and examine the changes line by line, they're actually very measured -- they add up to a lot, but they've been applied judiciously.
My apologies Penllawen, I should have noted that others have said it in other threads, but I can see how it would be attributed to you in this thread. You made no such claims, and I inadvertently lumped you with those that did.Thank you.
Honest question:No, I don't believe I have, even in the heat of the moment. If only because there's a very large gap between "Catalyst drops the licence" and "someone else gives us an edition of Shadowrun featuring perfect fluff, Goldilocks crunch, heralding world peace, and the ability to whiten your teeth while you sleep." In that gap are all sorts of horrorshow things like "Topps shelves the licence for a decade" or "they sell it to EA and we get a microtransaction-riddled half-baked computer game." I don't like those odds.
Did you say anything to this effect in any previous post?
I am not talking about if it actually is a successor to Anarchy. It obviously isn't. I am kinda in pure marketer mind right now. I think 6e would have been viewed more kindly if it was its own thing. Sorta like how people were really soft on Anarchy despite it sorta missing the point of the narrative based mechanics it was using and mixing up rules lite and narrative system into sorta a slurry that lacked the high points of either.Oh, I see what you mean. Maybe? But you can't have it both ways. Anarchy has this cushion effect where it very clearly wasn't normal Shadowrun, so if you don't like it you don't feel threatened by it; it's not gonna replace the thing you do like. That dampens the knee-jerk reaction a bit.
You can fix most of the subjective problems of 5e with houserules (not that you should HAVE to)Well, I don't mind that so much. Take how strong mages are, for example. I certainly think mages could do with some nerfs around buffing spells and spirit strength. But that's stylistic; other tables might like to have mages that strong. I think it's valid to ship an RPG where these sorts of decisions are tweakable by each table.
but the way the game launched and how the buzz formed around it means people aren't going to be digging into it to find these solutions, while they did with 5e. So I am not saying its hopeless and should be canned, it is just that we aren't going to have a situation where the community finds all these issues with the systems because its unlikely most people into systems thinking are going to dig right now, and as much as people like to kinda rag on minmaxery optimizer types I suspect it has become apparent how vital those types are to actually create a healthy RPG community.I think this is a really good point.
One interesting thing is that despite 4e being a fully supported line, I PROBABLY would play 6e over 4e just going off core systems. Yet I suspect a lot of people would say they like 4e better and think its better than 6e, even though with the benefit of hindsight due to the improvements 5e made 4e feels borderline unplayable if you try to take fun PC concepts from 5e and port them to 4e.There's a lot of rose-tinted glasses, too, of course. It's almost impossible to fully separate "4e the system" from "4e the thing I was playing when I had all those great times with my friends." It's why I maintain such fondness for 2e, although when I flip through the book now there's plenty of stuff in there that makes me suck air past my teeth in shock/horror.
A lot of people saying Cata should lose the license probably don't even really get the ramifications of that. Cata doesn't OWN the license, they license it. In theory if someone who actually cared and thought they could do better and that it would be worth it to do better existed, they would snatch it from Cata, assuming that Topps would be willing to do so or there isn't some sort of contractual obligation to continue offering it to Cata first. Anyone who would swoop in after Cata would in all likelyhood care way less and would just pick it up because they see it as a guaranteed market as long as they put in the minimal effort. It probably would NOT be a good thing for the game for that to happen. I fully UNDERSTAND why people feel that way, it just isn't, outside the fantasy of the scenario, actually going to end up as a good thing in all likelyhood.All of this. I totally agree.
[1] I am a communications grad student. Take that statement with the grains of salt you would take with a lawyer saying you need a lawyer, in that I bias towards inflating the brand aspect of a product's importance.:) :D ;D
I agree, we should be focusing on righting the ship and getting this corrected. I know the Errata team is hard at work on these issues right now.Yup, they're working hard behind the scenes. Doesn't prevent people from making assumptions of what the outcome of that process will be and bashing everything in advance. =_=
Yup, they're working hard behind the scenes. Doesn't prevent people from making assumptions of what the outcome of that process will be and bashing everything in advance. =_=The book's been out for five weeks. "Bashing" it is not "in advance" of anything, even if we overlook the use of the term "bashing" to dismiss a whole lot of stuff that I'd characterise as "constructive feedback."
What is the purpose of sharing the data? When you release data, you are trying to prove a theory, correct?
In this case, your theory is that Shadowrun 6E isn't any good and people should stop purchasing it so that Catalyst Game Labs stops production and sells off the IP to people that "know how to make the game". Correct?
I'm not as salty about Catalyst as many. For a start, 5e is my favourite edition of Shadowrun [1]. Sure, it's not perfect, but no RPG system is.
What I am salty about, however, is the pretty poor state that 6e shipped in. We had a ~10 page errata doc, covering 30-40 items, for a physical book that was on sale at GenCon for $50/100/200. Since then, there's been at least 15 things the Errata Team have publicly confirmed they are looking at.
Yup, they're working hard behind the scenes. Doesn't prevent people from making assumptions of what the outcome of that process will be and bashing everything in advance. =_=The book's been out for five weeks. "Bashing" it is not "in advance" of anything, even if we overlook the use of the term "bashing" to dismiss a whole lot of stuff that I'd characterise as "constructive feedback."
As for bashing the errata process... I don't think anyone is doing that. Can you point to any examples?
I think Chandra´s referring specifically to my half-serious fear that the Errata might further gut the Edge mechanic by officially making Drones, hosts and other types of opposition officially unable to get Edge.Oh, fair enough, I sort-of see what he means then (but I don't agree with how he said it.)
God damn people, some of you came down awfully hard on Penllawen. He's been verbally critical of some elements of 6e, but I personally can't recall him being non-constructive in that criticism.Thank you. I have indeed attempted to always remain constructive -- which is sometimes not so easy in the face of a quite dismissive attitude in responses to threads offering criticism.
While I think that is often the case, it doesn't have to be. Sometimes data can be shown to initiate a point of discussion, which is what I believe Penllawen intended. I very much read his point as "Here is some limited but interesting data about reviews on 6e, what do you guys think?", not "Look at how shit this game is doing, here is the data that says so.".Pretty much this, yes. With an additional touch of "heads up, this is an early warning that the grumblings about 6e might be snowballing to the point where it has real commercial impact."
Meh... At the time, I was surprised to see it doing much better than I had hoped. As for ratings/reviews, I trust them as much as any other rating/review system. Do I still think it's a good game? Yes, I do. And I'd think that even if the sales had tanked. It's a rules setting I LIKE and that's all that matters. If I wanted to play follow the leader, I'd be playing a lot more D&D and Call of Cthulhu instead.
Just ignoring the review scores for a moment, just look at that top 3! Cyberpunk Red, Shadowrun and Eclipse Phase dominating the sales. Could this be a revival of the cyberpunk genre? Sure, new editions of course, but still.
Position Title Score Number of ratings Release date 1 Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit 4.8/5 42 August 01, 2019 2 Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook 2.8/5 19 August 26, 2019 3 Eclipse Phase Second Edition 5/5 13 August 09, 2019
3). Do I personally want Catalyst to stop production and sell the IP? I want Catalyst to improve, and if they do, I want them to prosper for their effort. If they cannot improve, or can but refuse, then perhaps it would be best for the fans and the IP (if not the company themselves) if the IP did fall into the hands of someone whom would treat it better.
For the most part, this is not a reflection upon the authors and freelancers at all, and more on the business practices of the shot callers of the company.
I do not block people for disagreeing with them. I block them for conduct I refuse to bear. I can understand why you lied on Reddit about your NDA violations, to make yourself look better and your punishment unfair rather than well deserved, but do not understand why you would ever lie here about why I block people or lie about FJ moderating in my favour, when reality is so vastly different and your claims can actually be publicly disproven.
Also, I am not an apologist. But with the toxic attacks I simply do not find room to post my own disagreements in a way people manage to pay attention to them. I have posted plenty of things I am disappointed with or disagree with, I simply haven't made any personal attacks on CGL so instead it doesn't blip on your 'I am sticking to reddit because I am too negative' radar
Tl;dr Anyone who claims CGL cannot do wrong in my view hasn't paid attention.
I'm sure I'm classified among the "die hard apologists" by those assembling such lists.
....I can understand why you lied on Reddit about your NDA violations, to make yourself look better and your punishment unfair rather than well deserved....
To be fair, you blocked me for saying I was tired of people pushing GM fiat/house rules as the solution to all the issues presented in SR6, and that CGL needs to take open and transparent action to fix the issues in 6th as it is now.I did not.
Qualities always were gm territory. It's ridiculous to pretend GMs have no agency. And Impaired is still abusable even at 1 attribute capped at -3, so no matter what the GM still needs to decide. Just like they had to with Allergy and Corporate SINs in SR5, or Reduced Sense, or, or, and so on and so forth.
Since it is your topic, I'm not going to bother expressing my personal gripes there. But my lesson is learned and I won't bother helping you with rules again, since all you're going to do is twist it to excuse a ridiculous attack against both me and CG. If I wanted that attitude, I'd join reddit.
I already explained to you in private that I had not blocked you at that point, but well before then. I fail to understand why you are still making that claim.
I already explained to you in private that I had not blocked you at that point, but well before then. I fail to understand why you are still making that claim.
Furthermore, I am not 'tied' to CGL. I am a volunteer demo agent, which is way less tied to CGL than being an errata team agent. I had 'I do not work for CGL' as my personal title for years. I have literally never written any CGL content. I have not even been able to attend any cons to GM at. Furthermore, there are former errata team members and present demo agents who are negative about SR6, so there is no hive mind in play whatsoever. And the hard-tied individuals show far more manners than you and I, so the standoffish claim is far from correct.
Something I should note: There are plenty of reasons to be mad at CGL. There are plenty of improvements to demand from them. And that is why I really do not understand the need to invent claims. To make incorrect claims about who said what, about the moderation involved, about the motives of those involved, about the acts taken during the design process of the current edition. Why poison the well, when you already have enough ammunition to request they both do better and prove sincerity about the ongoing errata-process? You have every right to want better, so why paint CGL in a worse light? What is the point to a contest about who can bash the most subtly or the most harsh?
Y'know what? I'm done with being an "apologist". I'm done with trying to provide a counter to the negativism. Instead, every time I see a thread like this, I'll just repost the link to this thread:
Other Forums (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30140.msg525629;topicseen#new)
Just remember, you may not like the game and now you're actively chasing players away.
When other players no longer feel welcome because the like something that other posters are being extremely vocal against, yes, it is toxic. Every time everyone says they are leaving this board, I wish them well, tell them they will be missed (honestly, I hate to see anyone leave), and ask them to come back when they feel like it, and there is always an open door. That open door is for everyone (well, not fraggin' spambots), not just people that are in agreement with you.Y'know what? I'm done with being an "apologist". I'm done with trying to provide a counter to the negativism. Instead, every time I see a thread like this, I'll just repost the link to this thread:
Other Forums (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30140.msg525629;topicseen#new)
Just remember, you may not like the game and now you're actively chasing players away.
Because as we all should know by now, not liking 6th edition is toxic.
Well that informed my decision to leave again.
Have fun.
The 9-page hot-fix did not address a lot of the issues, and CGL has been notably quiet about what progress has been made to fix it. And that is what has me irritated the most. The Errata team have their lips stitched about what progress has been made, or when we the players will see any of it.
And believe me, I wanted 6th ed to be good. I wanted to be able to bring it to my current group and get them hyped, and get my GM revved up about doing a 6we campaign. Instead, I got an unfinished $50 book that has been released for over a month with no clear scheduled fixes beyond the hot-fix.
Y'know what? I'm done with being an "apologist". I'm done with trying to provide a counter to the negativism. Instead, every time I see a thread like this, I'll just repost the link to this thread:Why, that's terrible! We should be chasing them to other editions of Shadowrun instead.
Other Forums (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30140.msg525629;topicseen#new)
Just remember, you may not like the game and now you're actively chasing players away.
MOD VOICE: Or, you could be a good human being and an example to other players and respect their decision to like what they like.Y'know what? I'm done with being an "apologist". I'm done with trying to provide a counter to the negativism. Instead, every time I see a thread like this, I'll just repost the link to this thread:Why, that's terrible! We should be chasing them to other editions of Shadowrun instead.
Other Forums (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30140.msg525629;topicseen#new)
Just remember, you may not like the game and now you're actively chasing players away.
One of the things that I have noticed about many of the negative reviews on Drive Thru is that very few of the reviewers seem to have purchased the game.
Many of them complain about the game being unfinished. I don't see that at all.
One of the things that I have noticed about many of the negative reviews on Drive Thru is that very few of the reviewers seem to have purchased the game.
That is categorically false.
A person can not review, or even rate, a product on DriveThruRPG without purchasing it first.
Should I give you the benefit of the doubt (unlike what you have done to those you don't agree with) and assume that it was an accidental falsehood you are trying to spread?Many of them complain about the game being unfinished. I don't see that at all.
If you wish to see what others are talking about, you could start with the Change Blindness Gathering Thread (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29862.0).
It is a collection of things that were left out of the Sixth World Core Book that should have been in there from the beginning.
If that isn't enough for you, there are a large number of question threads that have popped up the past couple of weeks that I could easily link for you to peruse.
I agree, we should be focusing on righting the ship and getting this corrected. I know the Errata team is hard at work on these issues right now.Yup, they're working hard behind the scenes. Doesn't prevent people from making assumptions of what the outcome of that process will be and bashing everything in advance. =_=
Mind you, I got like two dozen houserules ready depending on how errata go. But I'd rather first see the actual results.
.All right, I'll bite: as someone who likes 5e and doesn't like 6e, I don't feel like this forum respects my decision.
MOD VOICE: Or, you could be a good human being and an example to other players and respect their decision to like what they like.
Everyone who wants to play/enjoy Shadowrun is welcome, regardless of the "rule set" they prefer to use.
There has been a lot more...frustration/anger/etc...with 6we that I ever recall with 5e (of course, that's my opinion/recollection). The fact that someone has issues with 6we and prefers 5e is PERFECTLY VALID. All of us should take stock and remember that.
Personally, I've been very conflicted...there are a lot of things about 6we and its launch that have me concerned. This is the first release is ages that I haven't bought it on right out of the gate. I have found myself completely turned off; a seemingly rushed launch and a debate with the sides that seem so extreme. i also feel that CGL has done very little to communicate about any of the things that may be going on in the background (to be honest, I haven't asked either)...which simply adds fuel to the fire. /end rant
Back on point, you are welcome; your opinions are welcome; your conversation is welcome.
This is honestly crazy to me. The number of people that assume all games will have to use houserules to even function.[...]Not what I said AT ALL. What I meant, and you could have asked before jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth, is that while I can see them going either way in some areas once errata are out (while in plenty of cases is obvious but more explicit will help) I have a personal preference in a few cases strong enough to be willing to overrule the rules.
What gives SR6 (or SR5E) a pass? What makes it OK for a game to REQUIRE houseruling to be able to even play? This isn't 1991 anymore.
I personally find that the aggression/hostility/dismissiveness is only actually coming from a few people on each side (just repeatedly). Do you find the same or feel different?Actually, the same, yes. Didn’t always feel like that at times but on reflection I agree with you.
Beyond that point of curiosity, for what it is worth, I agree that your contribution to the discussion has only been constructive.Thanks man. That means a lot.
Ok. Given the attitude and responses by some of the mods and team members this doesn't really seem a friendly place to discuss SR.Well, if that's the case, I'll just go back over here and be just a moderator and not try to engage in any of the discussions. Later all.
That's too bad. Wish you guys the best of luck.
Furthermore, I am not 'tied' to CGL. I am a volunteer demo agent, which is way less tied to CGL than being an errata team agent. I had 'I do not work for CGL' as my personal title for years. I have literally never written any CGL content. I have not even been able to attend any cons to GM at.
Something I should note: There are plenty of reasons to be mad at CGL. There are plenty of improvements to demand from them. And that is why I really do not understand the need to invent claims. To make incorrect claims about who said what, about the moderation involved, about the motives of those involved, about the acts taken during the design process of the current edition. Why poison the well, when you already have enough ammunition to request they both do better and prove sincerity about the ongoing errata-process? You have every right to want better, so why paint CGL in a worse light? What is the point to a contest about who can bash the most subtly or the most harsh?
Ok. Given the attitude and responses by some of the mods and team members this doesn't really seem a friendly place to discuss SR.Well, if that's the case, I'll just go back over here and be just a moderator and not try to engage in any of the discussions. Later all.
That's too bad. Wish you guys the best of luck.
I think there are a just a lot of people that hate on this game for no reason other than to hate on it and Catalyst. I'm wondering if some of these haters are fans or backers of independent games on the market. I love indie games, just bought Blades in the Dark, but I'm not going to jump on a forum or store and trash a game just because I prefer it to another. I hope that is not what is happening.That's not what's happening. It's most likely people who love previous editions of Shadowrun and are disappointed with this new one, or possibly people love the idea of Shadowrun and are disappointed by all editions. But they are Shadowrun fans.
Thank you mcv. This is what I've been trying to promote. Dislike/Like 6E, it doesn't matter. When you turn toxic, then it matters. Please, be productive, give us workarounds for what you don't like about 6E, tell us how you're running games in 5E, be positive about the game/setting you love.I think there are a just a lot of people that hate on this game for no reason other than to hate on it and Catalyst. I'm wondering if some of these haters are fans or backers of independent games on the market. I love indie games, just bought Blades in the Dark, but I'm not going to jump on a forum or store and trash a game just because I prefer it to another. I hope that is not what is happening.That's not what's happening. It's most likely people who love previous editions of Shadowrun and are disappointed with this new one, or possibly people love the idea of Shadowrun and are disappointed by all editions. But they are Shadowrun fans.
The thing is, when people are really passionate about something, that amplifies emotions, and can make them more militant about their disappointment about certain aspects of the thing they love. And yes, this can easily turn toxic. It often does turn toxic on many topics in many internet communities, and that's not healthy. Look at the reactions to recent Star Wars movies if you want to see fandom turn toxic. I even recognise it in myself: I have not read the new rules yet, but everything I hear about it sounds like it's not for me. And I want Shadowrun to be for me, because I love the setting. But I don't want to get toxic about it, so I hold back. I totally understand the passion of some of the other people who are disappointed with it, but at some point it's healthier to step back and accept that it may not be for you, but other people still like it.
Let them enjoy it. We'll survive on 5th edition. And we can still buy the setting and metaplot books and adapt them to our campaigns.
Also, by the logic you're presenting here, Shadowrun: Anarchy with it's 4.5/5 rating is a better version of Shadowrun.
I wonder how well 6e would have done as 'Advanced Anarchy.'
| Stars | Votes |
| 5/5 | 5/30 |
| 4/5 | 11/30 |
| 3/5 | 1/30 |
| 2/5 | 3/30 |
| 1/5 | 10/30 |
That's a lot of good statistical thought, but at the same time:Query: who are the "people being set up by CGL"?
When the people being set up by CGL to promote the edition have to publicly tap out due to quality control issues, it is what we in the internet industry call a bad look.
That's a lot of good statistical thought, but at the same time:Query: who are the "people being set up by CGL"?
When the people being set up by CGL to promote the edition have to publicly tap out due to quality control issues, it is what we in the internet industry call a bad look.
Thanks, I just wanted clarification since the language was a bit ambiguous.That's a lot of good statistical thought, but at the same time:Query: who are the "people being set up by CGL"?
When the people being set up by CGL to promote the edition have to publicly tap out due to quality control issues, it is what we in the internet industry call a bad look.
I'd imagine it would be people like Roll4It that received copies of the rules early to highlight on their shows.
They were supplied, provided, or set up by CGL to promote the edition.
I look forward to engaging with you all in an earnest exchange of opinions that are, hopefully, free of some of the toxicity I've seen in this thread. I for one am a blank slate, and I hope that the release of 6th Edition brings many more like me back to the fold (or indeed, into the fold for perhaps the first time!). Ultimately, all I want for one of my favourite hobbies of all time is good things, and that is something I hope we can all agree on.Fingers crossed. Let's hope we all manage to calm down, and also that we get some news about the errata status, because we can all agree those are needed.
And this isn't an attempt to absolve toxicity. I am super glad THIS (https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/d5qevq/6e_post_bingo/) got popular on the SR reddit because it seems to have given people perspective of how absolutely loony toons frothing mad they were over minor stuff and how rude they were being to people. But discourse being bad on one side doesn't absolve one of bad discourse themselves, or allow one to ignore the reality of a situation just because some people are acting... really way below their best selves because of that reality.
Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.Eh?
Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.WFTP?
Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.WFTP?
My situation has improved, recently, and 6th Edition seemed like a good time to jump back in, but I think I will leave it alone for now and catch up on some novels while the errata team does their thing.
I suspect Working For The People ie the rule that lets you trade Nuyen for karma.Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.WFTP?
I'm assuming Waiting For The Punchline.
But I could be way off. There isn't enough context to be sure.
Now, does all of this behavior mean people don't have points? No. Is it right for someone to have a strong emotional response to something they love being ruined in a new edition? (YMMV) Yes.I have a feeling the long term support for and discussion of older versions of SR will be better on Reddit, whereas this forum will be better for 6e. I expect therefore to maybe take a step back from posting here at some point soon, also.[/quote]I’m not sure about previous support, since we have pretty robust support in the previous editions sub-forum. We they may not have been overly active in the past, but previous editions weren’t as divisive as 6E.
I suspect Working For The People ie the rule that lets you trade Nuyen for karma.Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.WFTP?
I'm assuming Waiting For The Punchline.
But I could be way off. There isn't enough context to be sure.
But if you really did care about poor role balance, bad rules editing, and the game continuing in this weird direction where what shadowrunners do conceptually isn't nailed down well or in line with the fiction, SR6 is a major regression. There are some attempts to fix concerns, like buff magic getting nerfed in some ways, or the decker buy in being about 1/4th your resources, rather than 1/2 minimum, but no problem you cared about was actually fixed, and in many cases things got worse.
Like if you were not a fan of mages who increased attributed themselves and then ran around as a mini-samurai with a mega-samurai spirit helping them? If you had players literally quit SR forever (like I have) because they were so supremely frustrated with how unfair mages felt and how pressured they felt to be one? Guess what, they made that strategy comparatively stronger! A bane that literally tore your SR group apart, like it did mine, got worse! It just feels gross to have every single thing you have been complaining held back the game so much untouched, while things that didn't matter or felt good (Like mundane samurai being really good at staying alive to help create high point moments for them alongside the PC mage just summoning a force 8 to godzilla an entire complex because they can casually skate about fighting while ignoring bullets on their skimmers) got changed in ways that don't make any sense (From a balance perspective the idea of nerfing samurai is... actually amazingly incoherent. I get the soak change was an attempt to fix a GMing issue that only existed among GMs who weren't playing SR like a heist game and instead like a dungeon grinder, but the change was unarguably and objectively a nerf).
From THAT perspective? CGL comes across as amazingly tone-deaf to the actual issues they care about in the game, and combined with the fact these issues were really clearly a huge issue years before SR6 was even in development. So if you are in that boat, it honestly does feel like management doesn't care, or doesn't know what they are doing. People in the first boat see a mob crying for firings for no reason, but people in the second boat see that the captain at the helm hasn't... changed anything in a meaningful way. They didn't alter the course, they swapped the music in the record player, and because these issues have felt super critical in SR for a long time that is... really hard to forgive with a 'lets give them a chance to fix it.'
If SR felt broken to you by the end of the 5e line where magicrun hit a critical mass? 6e WAS the chance to fix it. So from that perspective calls for clemency, understanding, and patience are essentially calls to give up on holding a commercial product to any standard.
But if you really did care about poor role balance, bad rules editing, and the game continuing in this weird direction where what shadowrunners do conceptually isn't nailed down well or in line with the fiction, SR6 is a major regression. There are some attempts to fix concerns, like buff magic getting nerfed in some ways, or the decker buy in being about 1/4th your resources, rather than 1/2 minimum, but no problem you cared about was actually fixed, and in many cases things got worse.
Like if you were not a fan of mages who increased attributed themselves and then ran around as a mini-samurai with a mega-samurai spirit helping them? If you had players literally quit SR forever (like I have) because they were so supremely frustrated with how unfair mages felt and how pressured they felt to be one? Guess what, they made that strategy comparatively stronger! A bane that literally tore your SR group apart, like it did mine, got worse! It just feels gross to have every single thing you have been complaining held back the game so much untouched, while things that didn't matter or felt good (Like mundane samurai being really good at staying alive to help create high point moments for them alongside the PC mage just summoning a force 8 to godzilla an entire complex because they can casually skate about fighting while ignoring bullets on their skimmers) got changed in ways that don't make any sense (From a balance perspective the idea of nerfing samurai is... actually amazingly incoherent. I get the soak change was an attempt to fix a GMing issue that only existed among GMs who weren't playing SR like a heist game and instead like a dungeon grinder, but the change was unarguably and objectively a nerf).
From THAT perspective? CGL comes across as amazingly tone-deaf to the actual issues they care about in the game, and combined with the fact these issues were really clearly a huge issue years before SR6 was even in development. So if you are in that boat, it honestly does feel like management doesn't care, or doesn't know what they are doing. People in the first boat see a mob crying for firings for no reason, but people in the second boat see that the captain at the helm hasn't... changed anything in a meaningful way. They didn't alter the course, they swapped the music in the record player, and because these issues have felt super critical in SR for a long time that is... really hard to forgive with a 'lets give them a chance to fix it.'
If SR felt broken to you by the end of the 5e line where magicrun hit a critical mass? 6e WAS the chance to fix it. So from that perspective calls for clemency, understanding, and patience are essentially calls to give up on holding a commercial product to any standard.
xclnt post Dezzmont, the quoted text above is a pretty excellent statement of my unfulfilled wishes for and view on 6e.
thank you
I'm actually dredding having to play SR6 for Shadowrun Missions when they will make the conversion. But I will stick to 5E outside of open play.
I'm actually dredding having to play SR6 for Shadowrun Missions when they will make the conversion. But I will stick to 5E outside of open play.
I feel similar, but on the plus side they have plenty of time to improve on things before we get to that point if they choose to seize the opportunity.
Season 10 is already available to CDT agents, and is in 5e. Between it and the 2019 CMPs (also in 5e) there's lots of 5e SRM gaming to go before the next SRM season next summer. There'll be more 6we books out by then, and I've seen an awful little buzz about JMH having said in an interview that 6we Rigger book is slated for Gen Con release next year.
It's been a couple of weeks so I thought I'd do an update.
Position Title Score Number of ratings Release date 1 Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit 4.8/5 42 August 01, 2019 2 Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook 2.8/5 19 August 26, 2019 3 Eclipse Phase Second Edition 5/5 13 August 09, 2019 4 Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone 5/5 2 August 27, 2019 5 The Short Games Digest: Volume 2 5/5 5 September 09, 2019 6 Bayt al Azif #2: A magazine for Cthulhu Mythos roleplaying games n/a n/a September 09, 2019 7 Stars Without Number: Revised Edition 4.9/5 154 December 29, 2017 8 Occult Philosophy 5/5 24 July 29, 2019 9 Rangers of Shadow Deep: Ghost Stone 4.3/5 3 August 02, 2019 10 Esper Genesis 5E Threats Database 5/5 6 August 15, 2019 11 Rangers of Shadow Deep: A Tabletop Adventure Game 4.8/5 62 November 02, 2018 12 Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. The Second Edition, Version 2.01 4.5/5 79 March 09, 2014 13 Lords and Lands: a Witcher TRPG Expansion 3.3/5 12 August 01, 2019 14 Apocalypse World: Burned Over Hackbook 5/5 3 August 01, 2019 15 Star Trek Adventures: Alpha Quadrant Source Book 4.3/5 3 July 25, 2019
| Position | Title | Score | Number of ratings | Release date | Sales award |
| 1 | Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit | 4.8/5 | 47 | August 01, 2019 | Adamantium (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
| 2 | Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook | 2.8/5 | 34 | August 26, 2019 | Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000) |
| 3 | Cypher System Rulebook | n/a | n/a | September 27, 2019 | Copper (Tier 7 - 50-100) |
| 4 | WFRP Ubersreik Adventures - Bait and Witch | 3.8/5 | 4 | September 26, 2019 | Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500) |
| 5 | Eclipse Phase Second Edition | 5/5 | 14 | August 09, 2019 | Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) |
| 6 | Hurricane Dorian Red Cross Charity Bundle Anchor Product | n/a | n/a | September 24, 2019 | Copper (Tier 7 - 50-250) |
| 7 | The Chronomancer's Guide to the Future | 5/5 | 2 | September 28, 2019 | Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) |
| 8 | Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone | 5/5 | 4 | August 27, 2019 | Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500) |
| 9 | Heroic Maps - Storeys: Ragnar's Keep | n/a | n/a | September 26, 2019 | Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) |
| 10 | Stars Without Number: Revised Edition | 4.9/5 | 164 | December 29, 2017 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
| Title | Score | Number of ratings | Release date | Sales award |
| Shadowrun: Sixth World Beginner Box | 2.0/5 | 15 | July 09, 2019 | Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) |
| Shadowrun: Fifth Edition Core Rulebook (Master Index Edition) | 4.1/5 | 139 | July 11, 2013 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
The one thing that stands out to me is that holy moly, I should give Stars Without Number a try!Yeah, same thing happened to me!
Also: the hype train for Cyberpunk Red is real. It’s selling really well.
I don't think FFVII or Cyberpunk 2077 will draw people away from Shadowrun, of course, but CPRed might eat into the market. However, if the market itself is broadening because of the attention these upcoming games are getting, I think there's room for growth for both brands. The CPRed's QSR knocked SR6we's QSR out of the water, but we haven't seen how the core book stacks against it. It's easy to make assumptions about it being better because the QSR were better, but like with the next round of errata for 6we, I'll believe it when I see it.
We may not have much direct competition in the cyberpunk+magic genre, but we're making a strong case for people to look elsewhere for their tabletop entertainment.
Shadowrun 6th is not mediocre, it is polarizing. Actual ratings of 2 and 3 are the LEAST common ratings given...
Shadowrun 6th is not mediocre, it is polarizing.
I saw two anonymous reviews, while the anonymous ratings are 12 for 4/5 and 8 for 1/2 stars. But sure, it's only the people that like the game that are remaining anonymous. Wonder if it has something to do with not wanting their information out there.Shadowrun 6th is not mediocre, it is polarizing.
I submit that it is both at the same time.
If you look, the 5 Star ratings are "anonymous" ratings, not reviews. It is almost as if the raters knew there weren't words to justify the 5 Star rating.
Likewise, many of the 1 Star reviews probably should be 2 Stars - if the reviewer could set aside their feelings about the company / product.
The 4 Star reviews I read mentioned, and then quickly glossed over, the editing and production issues. Someone might be able to sell me on the idea that those should be 3.5 Stars, but DriveThuRPG won't allow that - so the reviewer rounded to 4. Maybe for some of them... Some should probably be brought down to 3.
The overall effect would be roughly the same, just more indicative of the quality of the product.
If you set aside your feelings, hopes, aspirations, and such and try to read the book objectively (I admit that it can be difficult) it reads kind of like someone took their college roommates hand written notes, typed them up, and submitted them as their thesis without reading them first.
There are quite a few good ideas in the Sixth World Core Book. I dare say there are a few great ideas in it. Not a one is fully fleshed out though.
There is a rumor that the playtesters tried to tell CGL that Shadowrun Sixth World needed another year abouts before it was ready. I can believe it.
It wouldn't hurt if they hired - and put under NDA if they needed - someone that wasn't entrenched in the design process to read through it to point out all the gaps of information.
Just to be clear, by "mediocre" I meant "something that gets lots of 2 and 3 star ratings", as the average rating would seem to indicate. I meant nothing more than that.Shadowrun 6th is not mediocre, it is polarizing.
I submit that it is both at the same time.
If you look, the 5 Star ratings are "anonymous" ratings, not reviews. It is almost as if the raters knew there weren't words to justify the 5 Star rating.
Likewise, many of the 1 Star reviews probably should be 2 Stars - if the reviewer could set aside their feelings about the company / product.
The 4 Star reviews I read mentioned, and then quickly glossed over, the editing and production issues. Someone might be able to sell me on the idea that those should be 3.5 Stars, but DriveThuRPG won't allow that - so the reviewer rounded to 4. Maybe for some of them... Some should probably be brought down to 3.
Speculating on why people rate how they rate seems like a waste of time to me. Ratings are always subjective, even meta-subjective, in that they combine multi-dimension subjective assessments (content, editing, system, coolness, whatever) into a single subjective summary.If you look, the 5 Star ratings are "anonymous" ratings, not reviews. It is almost as if the raters knew there weren't words to justify the 5 Star rating.I saw two anonymous reviews, while the anonymous ratings are 12 for 4/5 and 8 for 1/2 stars. But sure, it's only the people that like the game that are remaining anonymous. Wonder if it has something to do with not wanting their information out there.
Likewise, many of the 1 Star reviews probably should be 2 Stars - if the reviewer could set aside their feelings about the company / product.
The 4 Star reviews I read mentioned, and then quickly glossed over, the editing and production issues. Someone might be able to sell me on the idea that those should be 3.5 Stars, but DriveThuRPG won't allow that - so the reviewer rounded to 4. Maybe for some of them... Some should probably be brought down to 3.
I don't know, but I would expect CGL employees and freelancers aren't getting their pdfs thru DTRPG. I suppose it's possible that self-interested parties could pay for a copy thru DTRPG just to leave a good review, but if you're going to go to that bother wouldn't you actually leave a good review rather than just toggling the 5 star?
Speaking of statistical significance, as of this post there have been 34 reviews given. I don't see how ANY statistical significance can be achieved with a sample size of only 34. We're inherently talking about a combination of pure conjecture and anecdote, with probable sprinklings of opinion...
Just to be clear, by "mediocre" I meant "something that gets lots of 2 and 3 star ratings", as the average rating would seem to indicate. I meant nothing more than that.Shadowrun 6th is not mediocre, it is polarizing.
I submit that it is both at the same time.
If you look, the 5 Star ratings are "anonymous" ratings, not reviews. It is almost as if the raters knew there weren't words to justify the 5 Star rating.
Likewise, many of the 1 Star reviews probably should be 2 Stars - if the reviewer could set aside their feelings about the company / product.
The 4 Star reviews I read mentioned, and then quickly glossed over, the editing and production issues. Someone might be able to sell me on the idea that those should be 3.5 Stars, but DriveThuRPG won't allow that - so the reviewer rounded to 4. Maybe for some of them... Some should probably be brought down to 3.
Just to be clear, my point is that a lot of the ratings should be 2 and 3 Star ratings.
CPRed doesn't provide the same thing as Shadowrun- not just in terms of magic/setting, but also lethality. The ease in which characters die is a major turn-off for me for CPRed, since I prefer long-lived campaigns. You can eliminate a lot of that in SR with minimal fudging and competent players, but a lot of the lethality in CPRed seems to come down to luck- maybe that's just my impression from the QSR. It was definitely fun for a one-shot, but it does not meet my own needs as a GM. That's not to say other people can't enjoy that level of lethality- it's also possible that the game isn't as lethal as it seemed, just that the players were inexperienced (Since they were new). But as-is, it seemed like I would have to fudge or house-rule a lot of CPRed to get to the right level of lethality, and that feels like cheating. I'm not morally opposed to fudging dice, but I want to avoid it as much as possible, and I don't want it obvious to the players when I do so.
Speaking of statistical significance, as of this post there have been 34 reviews given. I don't see how ANY statistical significance can be achieved with a sample size of only 34. We're inherently talking about a combination of pure conjecture and anecdote, with probable sprinklings of opinion...Statistical significance is a red herring here for a number of reasons, I think.
If the raters had fairly rated, rather than tried to push their agenda, I expect the curve would "scrunch" down to the vast majority falling on 2 and 3, with a significant amount on 4.Ratings are no more or less than the subjective opinion of the person doing the rating. It will always combine the persons assessment of the multiple dimensions of the game itself (e.g. rules, editing, layout, concepts, etc.) as well as their own excitement level to share their opinion online. If I rate something a 5, its a 5 to me, and my reasons are completely my own. The only way one consider it "unfair" would be if DTRPG had some kind of "rating criteria" they published and asked their users to follow that set of criteria. I could not find such a set of criteria and don't think it exists.
34 ratings are more ratings than many games at the same tier of sales have, such that I think the fact that its pattern of ratings is so very different from other similar games is good evidence of something different about Shadowrun compared to other games.Yes. This is my thinking, exactly. Also: it's simply not a good look to be one of only one or two titles in the DTRPG top 50ish with a rating below 4 stars. (Which it is, I think; I got up to 40-something when I looked through earlier and they were almost all 4+ stars.) Spend ten minutes clicking through the catalog and you quickly realise that anything below 4 stars is pretty rare. It takes a strong negative reaction to make that happen.
Sure, I'd be completely unsurprised if I were to gain insider strategic info and learn that 6we was rushed to be available at Gen Con. I think most everyone presumes it, actually. Is that necessarily a bad thing?You never get a chance to make a second impression. I, for one, have written 6e off at this point; unless the next errata is mind-bogglingly massive, I'm fairly likely to skip the entire cycle, perhaps just picking up a subset of splatbooks. I doubt I am alone.
So, what I care about is what CGL is doing about the CRB. And from what I can see they've really learned, if only what NOT to do, since 5e. Certainly remains to be seen if we'll get a proper errata treatment published, but we're well ahead of the curve compared to 5e which took 2 years for a partial treatment.Perhaps. But consider this perspective: the 5e CRB launched at some quality bar, as did 6e. Put numbers on that, mentally. It's true that 5e then stuck at that level for a long time, whereas 6e received one round of errata quickly. But is 6e + hotfix errata in a better place today than 5e was the day it shipped? Is the quality bar any higher? I wasn't around in 2013, but I have read the first printing of the 5e CRB, and I think 6e is much worse. Even after the hotfix errata. So I'm not mollified by this reasoning, to be honest.
Just to be clear, my point is that a lot of the ratings should be 2 and 3 Star ratings.
While I personally happen to agree with that assessment (I'd give it 3), you have as much right to tell someone else how they should think or feel about something as they do to tell you.
Then I guess it is a damn good thing that I am, and never have, told anyone how they should feel about Shadowrun Sixth World.
Isn't it? Hmmm?
I'm just following forum procedure. In that thread, it was meant to shut down / cancel the critiques coming from Roll4It, and when I bring it up here on DriveThruRPGs ratings, I'm (essentially) accused of conspiracy theories when applied to 5 Star ratings only (even though I applied it to 1 Stars as well).The thread wasn't closed to shut down critiques (god, if we wanted to shut down critiques, there's this nice "delete" feature on the posts). The thread was shut down because it was caught up in circular arguments and flame baiting. On BOTH sides of the argument.
If he without sin were to throw the first rock, we'd never have a decent riot at our hands around here. If dril were a forum member here, this is what he'd say about us: "blocked. blocked. blocked. youre all blocked. none of you are free of sin"
My point is, as I stated, that the rating on DriveThruRPG mostly reflect the raters agenda, rather than a true representation of the product.
The thread wasn't closed to shut down critiques (god, if we wanted to shut down critiques, there's this nice "delete" feature on the posts). The thread was shut down because it was caught up in circular arguments and flame baiting. On BOTH sides of the argument.
I'm just following forum procedure. In that thread, it was meant to shut down / cancel the critiques coming from Roll4It, and when I bring it up here on DriveThruRPGs ratings, I'm (essentially) accused of conspiracy theories when applied to 5 Star ratings only (even though I applied it to 1 Stars as well).The thread wasn't closed to shut down critiques (god, if we wanted to shut down critiques, there's this nice "delete" feature on the posts). The thread was shut down because it was caught up in circular arguments and flame baiting. On BOTH sides of the argument.
My point is, as I stated, that the rating on DriveThruRPG mostly reflect the raters agenda, rather than a true representation of the product.
That is certainly possible. That is also something that I don't think anyone can actually know and state as fact, though.
Luckily antipathy and my own self-confidence means I don't have to do anything. You post, claim I crucify you for your beliefs, yet you're still here proselytizing. The only times I respond to your posts is when you're trying to paint things to prove your opinion is more than just your opinion.I'm just following forum procedure. In that thread, it was meant to shut down / cancel the critiques coming from Roll4It, and when I bring it up here on DriveThruRPGs ratings, I'm (essentially) accused of conspiracy theories when applied to 5 Star ratings only (even though I applied it to 1 Stars as well).The thread wasn't closed to shut down critiques (god, if we wanted to shut down critiques, there's this nice "delete" feature on the posts). The thread was shut down because it was caught up in circular arguments and flame baiting. On BOTH sides of the argument.
There you go twisting other people's posts to advance your agenda... Yet again.
Even if you are a firm believer that Occam's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) is nothing but a work of fiction, it takes effort - actual deliberate effort - to translate "the cries that Roll4It was too biased was being used to counter Roll4It's critiques" into anything about "the thread being locked."
I would challenge you to explain how you came to that as the conclusion, as I would like everyone to see how far you have to bend over backwards to make that jump.My point is, as I stated, that the rating on DriveThruRPG mostly reflect the raters agenda, rather than a true representation of the product.
That is certainly possible. That is also something that I don't think anyone can actually know and state as fact, though.
Fair. I am pretty sure I never presented it as fact, though. I did not say "the ratings are wrong," or "the ratings are false."
All I did was present my opinions. I'll admit I didn't put a big. bold. disclaimer in there... But neither did I make claims that ratings were demonstrateably incorrect.
My point is, as I stated, that the rating on DriveThruRPG mostly reflect the raters agenda, rather than a true representation of the product.
Although it's true that the quality of a product correlates with the rating on sites like this rather than causes it, I'm awful curious about the whole agenda thing.
There are a number of 1 Star ratings that are being submitted purely to tank the Overall Raring of Shadowrun Sixth World. That is their agenda. Make it look worse than it is, just for that point alone.
There are likewise 5 Star ratings that aren't made for any real opinion about Shadowrun Sixth World, but to raise the ratings to make it look better than it is prior to those submitted ratings.
Fair. I am pretty sure I never presented it as fact, though. I did not say "the ratings are wrong," or "the ratings are false."
All I did was present my opinions. I'll admit I didn't put a big. bold. disclaimer in there... But neither did I make claims that ratings were demonstrateably incorrect.
It's been a couple of weeks so I thought I'd do an update.
This time I've added some data on absolute sales figures. Via here (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/metal.php), we see we can arrange the sale "metals" awards badges that DTRGP gives products into tiers, where each tier has outsold the tiers below it. Via this post (https://amazing-tales.net/2019/01/27/drivethru-rpg-metal-tiers/) - which is not official but is not obviously wrong - we can convert the tiers into possible sales numbers. I have added those below.
Position Title Score Number of ratings Release date Sales award 1 Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit 4.8/5 47 August 01, 2019 Adamantium (Tier 1 - 5000+) 2 Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook 2.8/5 34 August 26, 2019 Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000) 3 Cypher System Rulebook n/a n/a September 27, 2019 Copper (Tier 7 - 50-100) 4 WFRP Ubersreik Adventures - Bait and Witch 3.8/5 4 September 26, 2019 Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500) 5 Eclipse Phase Second Edition 5/5 14 August 09, 2019 Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) 6 Hurricane Dorian Red Cross Charity Bundle Anchor Product n/a n/a September 24, 2019 Copper (Tier 7 - 50-250) 7 The Chronomancer's Guide to the Future 5/5 2 September 28, 2019 Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) 8 Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone 5/5 4 August 27, 2019 Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500) 9 Heroic Maps - Storeys: Ragnar's Keep n/a n/a September 26, 2019 Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) 10 Stars Without Number: Revised Edition 4.9/5 164 December 29, 2017 Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+)
Some extra comparison points:
Title Score Number of ratings Release date Sales award Shadowrun: Sixth World Beginner Box 2.0/5 15 July 09, 2019 Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) Shadowrun: Fifth Edition Core Rulebook (Master Index Edition) 4.1/5 139 July 11, 2013 Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+)
| Position | Title | Score | Number of ratings | Release date | Sales award |
| 1⮝ | Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook | 2.9/5⮝ | 36 | August 26, 2019 | Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000) |
| 2⮟ | Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit | 4.8/5 | 51 | August 1, 2019 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
| 3⮝ | Eclipse Phase Second Edition | 5/5 | 15 | August 9, 2019 | Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) |
| 4⮟ | Cypher System Rulebook | 4.5/5⮝ | 2 | September 27, 2019 | Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) |
| 5⮟ | WFRP Ubersreik Adventures - Bait and Witch | 3.6/5⮟ | 5 | September 26, 2019 | Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) |
| 6⮝ | The Chronomancer's Guide to the Future | 5/5 | 3 | September 28, 2019 | Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) |
| 7⮝ | Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone | 4.8/5⮟ | 5 | August 27, 2019 | Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500) |
| 8⮝ | Stars Without Number: Revised Edition | 4.9/5 | 167 | December 29, 2017 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
| 9⮝ | Blades in the Dark | 4.8/5 | 145 | January 10, 2016 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
| 10⮝ | Spellcaster: The Frostgrave Magazine #5 | n/a | n/a | October 4, 2019 | Copper (Tier 7 - 50-100) |
| Title | Score | Number of ratings | Release date | Sales award |
| Shadowrun: Sixth World Beginner Box | 2.3/5⮝ | 17 | July 9, 2019 | Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) |
| The Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia | 2.9/5 | 8 | June 12, 2019 | Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) |
| Shadowrun: Fifth Edition Core Rulebook (Master Index Edition) | 4.1/5 | 139 | July 11, 2013 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
| BattleTech: BattleMech Manual | 4.8/5 | 4 | July 22, 2017 | Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000) |
| BattleTech: A Time of War | 4.3/5 | 51 | September 25, 2009 | Mithral (Tier 2 - 2000-5000) |
| Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0 | 4.5/5 | 81 | March 9, 2014 | Mithral (Tier 2 - 2000-5000) |
They must not be rating on total sales then since Shadowrun is only at Platinum Tier.No, I suspect it’s sales during some sliding time window - over the last week, or something like that. That’s the most sensible and common approach.
I'd also like to point out that I looked through the Chronomancer's Guide to the Future and it has some pretty good rules for running a cyberpunk/magic mash-up in D&D 5E rules.
I live in Seattle, the capital of the tabletop RPG world, and I'm seriously thinking about going to Talisorian's warehouse here to try and scam a copy of the core rules for Cyberpunk Red. I know its competition but....:)
It's like a street of restaurants: People are drawn there and find what they like.
Position Title Score Number of ratings Release date Sales award 1⮝ Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook 2.9/5⮝ 36 August 26, 2019 Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000) 2⮟ Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit 4.8/5 51 August 1, 2019 Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) 3⮝ Eclipse Phase Second Edition 5/5 15 August 9, 2019 Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) 4⮟ Cypher System Rulebook 4.5/5⮝ 2 September 27, 2019 Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) 5⮟ WFRP Ubersreik Adventures - Bait and Witch 3.6/5⮟ 5 September 26, 2019 Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) 6⮝ The Chronomancer's Guide to the Future 5/5 3 September 28, 2019 Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) 7⮝ Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone 4.8/5⮟ 5 August 27, 2019 Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500) 8⮝ Stars Without Number: Revised Edition 4.9/5 167 December 29, 2017 Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) 9⮝ Blades in the Dark 4.8/5 145 January 10, 2016 Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) 10⮝ Spellcaster: The Frostgrave Magazine #5 n/a n/a October 4, 2019 Copper (Tier 7 - 50-100)
And Comparisons:
Title Score Number of ratings Release date Sales award Shadowrun: Sixth World Beginner Box 2.3/5⮝ 17 July 9, 2019 Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) The Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia 2.9/5 8 June 12, 2019 Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) Shadowrun: Fifth Edition Core Rulebook (Master Index Edition) 4.1/5 139 July 11, 2013 Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) BattleTech: BattleMech Manual 4.8/5 4 July 22, 2017 Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000) BattleTech: A Time of War 4.3/5 51 September 25, 2009 Mithral (Tier 2 - 2000-5000) Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0 4.5/5 81 March 9, 2014 Mithral (Tier 2 - 2000-5000)
| Position | Title | Score | Number of ratings | Release date | Sales award |
| 1 | WFRP Ubersreik Adventures - Heart of Glass | N/A | N/A | October 9, 2019 | Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) |
| 2⮟ | Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook | 2.9/5 | 36 | August 26, 2019 | Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000) |
| 3⮟ | Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit | 4.8/5 | 51 | August 1, 2019 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
| 4⮟ | Eclipse Phase Second Edition | 5/5 | 15 | August 9, 2019 | Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) |
| 5⮟ | Cypher System Rulebook | 4.5/5 | 2 | September 27, 2019 | Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) |
| 6⮟ | WFRP Ubersreik Adventures - Bait and Witch | 3.6/5 | 5 | September 26, 2019 | Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) |
| 7⮟ | The Chronomancer's Guide to the Future | 5/5 | 4⮝ | September 28, 2019 | Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) |
| 8⮟ | Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone | 4.8/5 | 5 | August 27, 2019 | Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500) |
| 9⮟ | Stars Without Number: Revised Edition | 4.9/5 | 169⮝ | December 29, 2017 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
| 10⮟ | Blades in the Dark | 4.8/5 | 145 | January 10, 2016 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
I mostly lurk on these forums, and use it to look up rules questions, and generally check in on Shadowrun stuff. I have not read every page of this thread, but read the start and the last couple pages. I think there is something that is concerning here, to me.
First, opinions are opinions. Some people will like the direction they went with in 6e and some will not. There were some that stayed with 4e, and that is fine. I personally like the concepts and what they were going for in 6e, but that is only my opinion.
However, the ratings should be concerning for one important reason. The 6e Core Rulebook is objectively a really really bad book. There are numerous errors that can only be due to editing, and lack of play testing. I am not talking about "This is OP, that feels wrong, Armor does not have enough of an impact", I am talking about contradictions in rules, some rules left completely out, things that everyone here knows about. The errata team is hard at work to correct some of these things, but they are there in the product and they are for the most part unforgivable things for going to press. To ignore these things and try to discuss why the ratings are poor is to stick your head in the sand to the issue that we all know is there in front of us as it has been well documented here and across the internet.
Adding to this many of the rules implementations are objectively inconsistent. None of this is news to anyone in these forums.
And those things are not opinions, they are concrete things that can be pointed to. Now, if the rest of the book makes up for those mistakes TO YOU, well that is fine, that is opinion. That can cause someone to rate higher. But to have a book so riddled with clear mistakes and to be released in such a poor state, then have it trend mid to low on review ratings, and try to rationalize that out, well. Ostrich on, my friend. It is pretty obvious that the mistakes have impacted people's opinions on the book, as it should. Even if you love it, you cannot say it is better with these mistakes than if they took more time to edit, and have it more cohesive and clear.
Now on to my opinion, since no one asked for it. This book was the single most disappointing rulebook I ever read. Now most of that is my love for the genre, getting behind what they were trying to do, and too eagerly anticipating the release. My local groups shadowrun campaign was put on hold for this, as we waited a couple months. The release came and several of us had purchased the deadwood book + pdf so we downloaded and read through it. Initially there was some confusion but we optimistically got together to make test characters to go through a one shot to test out the system (5 players + GM). The system did not last through the one shot before we pretty much unanimously decided that it was a complete disappointment. We decided to wait for a few more erattas were put out. After a couple weeks of us trying to homebrew some solutions to mathy problems with the system and inconsistencies one of my core beliefs kicked in "If you have to homebrew a system extensively, you are using the wrong system. Switch to one that more closely matches the flavor you want", so that is what we did.
I am a big, big fan of some of the things they were going for. But overall the flaws (real, hard, objective flaws, not opinions) have a major impact for me. Combine that with the inconsistencies (which, hey, could be part of the editing flaws) and the results when you math things out and the game hits the table, a major failure in my opinion.
But I will continue to check on updates. If there is another revision, more clarifications, etc. Hopefully eventually a pdf I can download that has a lot of the problems fixed. Unfortunately I have a hardcover paperweight that I wish I could return (even if I did not get money back. I never ever will use it in it's current state.)
Your sentiments are pretty closely aligned with mine. I got the Beginner box, the Streetpedia, and the CRB. The only one worth keeping is the Streetpedia.
Your sentiments are pretty closely aligned with mine. I got the Beginner box, the Streetpedia, and the CRB. The only one worth keeping is the Streetpedia.
If I was a customer who purchased the beginner box only to find that a substantial number of rules changed from it to the CRB I'd be quite upset. It would be foolish to knowingly throw money at a product that you knew was either inaccurate or would be defunct two months later.
| Position | Title | Score | Number of ratings | Release date | Sales award |
| 1⮝ | Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook | 2.8/5⮟ | 38 | August 26, 2019 | Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000) |
| 2⮟ | WFRP Ubersreik Adventures - Heart of Glass | 3/5⮝ | 5 | August 1, 2019 | Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500)⮝ |
| 3⮟ | Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit | 4.8/5 | 53 | August 1, 2019 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
| 4 | Cypher System Rulebook | 4.5/5 | 2 | September 27, 2019 | Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) |
| 5⮟ | Eclipse Phase Second Edition | 5/5 | 15 | August 9, 2019 | Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) |
| 6⮟ | WFRP Ubersreik Adventures - Bait and Witch | 3.9/5⮝ | 8 | September 26, 2019 | Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000) |
| 7 | Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone | 4.8/5 | 6 | August 27, 2019 | Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500) |
| 8⮟ | The Chronomancer's Guide to the Future | 5/5 | 4 | September 28, 2019 | Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250) |
| 9⮟ | Stars Without Number: Revised Edition | 4.9/5 | 169 | December 29, 2017 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
| 10⮟ | Blades in the Dark | 4.8/5 | 145 | January 10, 2016 | Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+) |
If I understand the chart correctly, the position is which is currently the bestseller, title is obvious, score is from 1-5 average rating of those who bought the book and left feedback, number of ratings is obvious, and sales award is where it falls in sales on the site, correct?Correct.
And Terminator: Dark Fate has sold more tickets in the same time frame as Avengers: Endgame.
Yes, but Terminator brought in $29,033,832 the weekend of the 2nd, while Avengers: Endgame made $0 the weekend of the second. Which is the point I was making.And Terminator: Dark Fate has sold more tickets in the same time frame as Avengers: Endgame.
Terminator brought in about 30 million over around two weeks while Avengers took in over 1.2 billion in its first weekend alone.
So like... no. No that isn't true at all. That is about 30 times more sales in the first weekend as opposed to the film's two week release lifetime.
The actual issue with falling off the best seller list 'early' isn't that something else is 'beating' SR, it means SR is no longer meaningfully driving sales. Being pushed off the top 10 slot by an RPG that only has moved 100-250 sales isn't saying good things about that RPG, its saying SR has failed to move more than 33 copies in any given week, which is really kinda not great, and if you crunch the numbers unless SR starts releasing twice a month its hard to understand how they are going to be making money off splats.
I think this is something leadership is aware of, as they have alluded to more dramatic action to fix 'the problem.' At a certain point its not supportive to say things are going ok and that troubling information is not troubling.
I don't think its likely physical sales overtake their digital, which would need to be true for this to be an ok situation, but something lending credence to that theory is the dramatic steps CGL takes to appease physical retailers, holding back PDFs for months despite them being ready and scheduled to go out for a while because of printing delays to maintain parity.Unfortunately, we won't know until ICv2 releases sales numbers for Summer 2019. Currenty, they only released the numbers for Spring 2019 (https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/43716/icv2-releases-internal-correspondence-96)
That said I have talked to a few store owners in my area and SR despite being a popular game around these parts don't move physical copies at all. Like they basically only order one copy to just have it on shelf at this point, and my local store of choice only picked up 4 copies of SR6 anticipating extremely low demand and not one has sold yet.
The plural of anectdote isn't evidence, obviously, but SR doesn't have a lot of shelf presence and its community is very much oriented towards online spaces and play, so PDFs should be expected to be the norm even more than D&D or Pathfinder, which have organized play societies pushing physical books REALLY hard.
I don't think its likely physical sales overtake their digital, which would need to be true for this to be an ok situation, but something lending credence to that theory is the dramatic steps CGL takes to appease physical retailers, holding back PDFs for months despite them being ready and scheduled to go out for a while because of printing delays to maintain parity.
That said I have talked to a few store owners in my area and SR despite being a popular game around these parts don't move physical copies at all. Like they basically only order one copy to just have it on shelf at this point, and my local store of choice only picked up 4 copies of SR6 anticipating extremely low demand and not one has sold yet.
The plural of anectdote isn't evidence, obviously, but SR doesn't have a lot of shelf presence and its community is very much oriented towards online spaces and play, so PDFs should be expected to be the norm even more than D&D or Pathfinder, which have organized play societies pushing physical books REALLY hard.
Position Title Score Number of ratings Release date Sales award
...
2 Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook 2.8/5 34 August 26, 2019 Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000)
| Position | Title | Score | Number of ratings | Release date | Sales award |
| 3 | Shadowrun: Cutting Black | 3.5/5 | 4 | January 17, 2020 | Silver (Tier 3 - 100-250) |
| 60 | Shadowrun: Free Seattle | 4.0/5 | 1 | December 11, 2019 | Silver (Tier 3 - 100-250) |
| 71 | Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook | 2.7/5 | 46 | August 26, 2019 | Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000) |
those seem like awful sales numbers, anyone know what 5e did for comparison?
In dollars spent by game stores through Alliance Distribution on product for a game system in 2019. The top RPG game systems for 2019 wereWeird. It's like the people who hate it are a tiny (but loud) portion.
1. D&D 5e
2. Pathfinder 2e
3. Shadowrun 6e
4. Vampire 5e
5. Star Wars (FFG)
6. Starfonder 1e
These figures were provided by Alliance to store owners who have accounts with the distributor
I think Matt Colville once said "People who go on the internet to argue about RPGs aren't playing RPGs." I think it's also fair to say that folks are more likely to leave a review after a negative experience than a positive experience.
I think Matt Colville once said "People who go on the internet to argue about RPGs aren't playing RPGs."Well, that's just nonsense. People who go on the internet to discuss things are going to be in the above-average bracket for passion for and engagement with whatever they are discussing. Their advice won't always be coherent and won't always be useful, but dismissing them out of hand is just silly.
I think it's also fair to say that folks are more likely to leave a review after a negative experience than a positive experience.Well, you might think that, but the reviews on DTRPG of other games don't bear that out. As covered upthread, or by a quick look through the top listing right now (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/top_100.php), aggregate review scores of 4.5-5 are pretty common. Few titles have a score below 4. Shadowrun 6e's score of 2.7 is a notable exception, not a typical result.
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Another update for you below, expanded to include all the main 6e books:
Position Title Score Number of ratings Release date Sales award
...
2 Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook 2.8/5 34 August 26, 2019 Platinum (Tier 5 - 1000-2000)
A small update, a few months later:
Position Title Score Number of ratings Release date Sales award 3 Shadowrun: Cutting Black 3.5/5 4 January 17, 2020 Silver (Tier 2 - 100-250) 60 Shadowrun: Free Seattle 4.0/5 1 December 11, 2019 Silver (Tier 2 - 100-250) 71 Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook 2.7/5 46 August 26, 2019 Platinum (Tier 5 - 1000-2000)
It's notable that the sales tier award hasn't moved. If this post (https://amazing-tales.net/2019/01/27/drivethru-rpg-metal-tiers/) is accurate, this implies SR6 CRB is selling fewer than nine copies per day, on average (<1000 sales in 116 days.)
| Position | Title | Score | #ratings | Release date | Sales award |
| 2 | Firing Squad | 1.0/5 | 2 | 2020/05/26 | Silver (Tier 2 - 100-250) |
| N/A | 6e CRB | 2.6/5 | 49 | 2019/08/26 | Platinum (Tier 5 - 1000-2000) |
| N/A | Free Seattle | 4.0/5 | 1 | 2019/12/11 | Electrum (Tier 3 - 250-500) |
| N/A | 30 Nights | 3.0/5 | 2 | 2020/03/04 | Electrum (Tier 3 - 250-500) |
| N/A | Cutting Black | 3.6/5 | 9 | 2020/01/17 | Electrum (Tier 3 - 250-500) |
I hadn't realized that sales awards were public.Caveat: the "metal tiers" part is public but the corresponding number of sales is not. For that, I am relying on this post from an insider (https://amazing-tales.net/2019/01/27/drivethru-rpg-metal-tiers/). There's no obvious reason to disbelieve that source, and when I googled it last year I found a couple of corroborating sources, but still: take it with a grain of salt.
I'll note that the German version of the 6E core rulebook also has a Platinum award (same as English), and the score is 4.6/5 across 12 reviews. Does anyone know if the rules are materially different? Presumably the editing was tightened up during translation.There's a detailed thread somewhere on reddit comparing them (look for u/D4rvill). The rules aren't significantly different, I'd say, but they were (apparently) clearer on some points. I'd also argue Pegasus enjoys a much better reputation than Catalyst does, and probably gets more benefit of the doubt as a result.
I wonder how frequently the Top 100 rankings are updated. Evidently a Silver award (100-249) will earn you the #2 position across two weeks (Firing Squad's release date of May 28th to June 8th, today).I haven't been able to work that out. I think it changes quite frequently, daily or every few days. But it could be calculated on a longer time period's worth of sales; a sort of moving average, if you will.