Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Senko on <08-08-17/0032:51>
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Two things from my current reading of this book. Figured I'd just make one topic.
1) Can you choose to use improved Astral form and astralnaught or is it compulsory. That is astralnaught let's you measure astral projection time in days but you need 24 hours to recover. If you take it can you choose to use it or the regular form of astral projection or are you locked into the upgraded version. Because there are times you'd want the extra time and times you'd just want a short hop and not to be stuck in a coma for a day.
2) could you make a permanent ritual for shapechange to turn someone into say a rabbit? Originally the answer people gave was no because permanent physical Spells were rare to non-existent. However this book has a shapechange variant to affect others against their will. A permanent spell to create more food and a permanent ritual to change tree types. So I'm thinking now it is viable afterall.
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1) I would say you could choose, but you'd have to choose before projecting, obviously.
2) Yes. This would have been easy to do in 4E, since they actually printed spell creation guidelines. Something like twenty magic books in, and still no spell creation guidelines for 5E though, so the drain would have to be houseruled, but yes, you could do it.
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1) Both Improved Astral Form and Astralnaut say "if this technique is used ..." which would imply that the magician is able to choose not to use it. Otherwise it would just list how it modifies the projection, both of them let you puposefully put your self in this deeper slumber to gain the benefits but also the drawbacks. The only limitation is that I would say the magician would have to declare the use of these powers at the time of starting their projection. No declaring it later.
2) That's sort of what the purpose of Quickening is for. If you want to permanently shapechange somebody, you would just quicken the spell on them so the spell self-sustains. Permanently transmogrifying someone into an animal isn't really thematic to what Shadowrun magic generally does.
EDIT: I took a look at the 4E spell creation rules, and they pretty explicitly say that this sort of spell shouldn't be able to be permanent.
Only spells that restore the target to its original, natural, unaltered state should be permanent in duration. Spells that heal or repair damage, disease, the effects of drugs, poisons, and so on, for example, are all good candidates. If the spell provides some sort of game bonus (other than restorative), the effect should not be permanent. The gamemaster has the final say on whether it is possible to create a permanent version of a spell.
The Forest Transformation ritual is somewhat unique in its way, mostly because in the storyline of Shadowrun they've done it. It happened, so they made a ritual for it. It's definitely more of an exception than a rule. It could also very easily be a ritual that actually accelerates the growth of the trees in the area such that it isn't really changing the trees themselves, but actually killing them off and using the raw plant matter to grow new trees in their place. Just like the Multiply Food spell doesn't technically create the food from nothing, just accelerates the natual process that made it in the first place.
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As anyone who has been to Aztlan or Chicago can tell you, just because there are things that Should Not Be, does not mean those things cannot be.
So, yes, it would be possible, but it would have to be a custom spell, because you're not finding a premade copy of something like that outside of some very well-guarded databases kept by some very nasty individuals. And even after your signature wore off, people could still assense the thing to determine its nature. Honestly, though, in terms of game balance, permanently turning someone into a statue isn't any crazier than a slap-patch of slab instantly sending someone to the floor, and then leaving them with some ghouls while they'll still be out for another hour. I can tell you right now which one would get more heat down on you if it got out that you did stuff like that, though. A mage with a permanent Petrify spell could do a few nasty tricks, but that's the kind of thing that gets everyone REALLY gunning for the mage, because it is scarier than the slap-patch and ghouls. The best I can say is that if you're doing wetwork, it makes for a clever way to get rid of bodies, and maybe make some extra coin on the run. But if you're going on a wetwork run, you've probably already got a half-dozen other ways to kill someone inside a combat turn, with varying degrees of noise, whether it is magic, explosives, snipers, poison, or whatever.
So would I allow someone to do a permanent Increase Reflexes? No. You're right, that is the kind of thing that Quickening is designed for. But a permanent Petrify? Yes, but we would sit down and have a long talk about the consequences that WILL come to bear if what is a cool bit of flair for your mage becomes their 'go to' for all situations and starts affecting game balance.
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When the designers of the 1-3e magic books sat you down and talked about the SR philosophy of spell design, essentially only beneficial clear-and-limited-effect Health and minor physical transmutation Manipulation spells - Healthy Glow, Heal / Treat, Fashion, and the like - could be designed to be Permanent without a Quickening; I vaguely recall Petrify losing its Permanent duration at some point due to that explanation/realization.
That a ritual can be permanent, on the other hand, does make perfect sense to me; I haven't taken a look at the Forest Transformation thing, but it strikes me as a version of 'Heal' - granted, 'Heal Land', but still ...
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Well everyone's different I do understand where your coming from its why I initially accepted no. Now however we have Spells to change someone against their will or create permanent alterations. So to me it doesn't seem unreasonable especially since as you said you could achieve the same effect simply by using quickening. It also seems fairly appropriate given the stories of people turned into animals, trees or stones in real life.
Thanks for the feedback on the astral projection ones.
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Dude, throwing a combat spell changes someone against their will; in previous editions, you could ALWAYS do that if you were willing to accept a higher drain for the spell. You actually received a lessening of drain if it was a) willing only, b) touch range, and/or c) self only (which included both those previous discounts).
Understand that causing a permanent effect to an unwilling target SHOULD take something out of you, and require knowledge of how to make such things as permanent as possible, e.g. the karma expenditure to Quicken the spell, and of course how to use Quickening. I would never permit a significant unwilling-target spell like Petrify or Shapechange to be designed in such a way as to avoid those costs.
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I'm not sure how the possibility of changing someone against their will affects whether or not making a permanent Shapechange should or should not be possible within the rules.
The primary difference between a Permanent transformation and a Quickened Shapechange is that Permanent implies that the magic takes hold, changes and then becomes permanent to the point that there is no longer any magic holding the effect in place, it just IS. A quickened spell is effectively "sustained indefinitely" which means that there is still magic holding it together. The big part is that a quickened spell can be dispelled, reversing the change, a permanent spell cannot.
I feel that Shadowrun lends itself more to the idea that magic would continue holding the spell in place, rather than an unnatural transmutation of a person into an animal becoming a permanent effect with no discernible magic keeping it that way. Tranforming Trees into other trees is much simpler in comparison, particularly since as I mentioned before, it could very easily be growing the new trees from scratch instead of shaping the old ones. Plus, most of those "stories" end with the people turning back, which wouldn't be possible with a permanent spell.
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I'm pretty sure such a spell could be created - at least theoretically. After all there is the Crystaline Entity from Shadow Spells with it's Crystalize ability.
This is a permanent effect that can be reversed through a ritual (Decrystalize).
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From a game balance standpoint, a permanent Petrify is no worse than a lot of the other, very legal, things players can do. A slap-patch of Slab can be used by anyone, and costs a couple hundred nuyen, and immediately drops someone into total paralysis, making it a one shot killer, only defended by toxin resistance and an attack roll. How is that better, from a balance standpoint, than a spell (which can only be used by those who invest priorities to gain the ability to cast spells) that costs the equivalent of 10000 nuyen (5 karma), plus whatever costs for the formula (either in time and nuyen to track down someone to write a formula for you, or karma in buying the Arcana skill to do it yourself), and is resisted by spell resistance and an attack roll, and also is going to draw aggro like walking into a KE precinct with a Panther XXL? Both are instant kills, but one takes a lot more work to set up, and is a DAMN sight more likely to make you feel like a clay pigeon if you do it too often, or where there are witnesses. As a flavorful tool for covert assassinations, it is pretty badass, especially if you have a cover as an artist who uses magic to shape sculptures (which is more resources pumped into this trick). But how many times are you really going to get a chance to use it over the course of a run, without bringing worlds of hurt on yourself? Whereas that slap patch will get less attention turned your way than the sammy's AK-97.
And Kiirnodel, it depends on the spell, and what was done to change the person back. A ritual to change them back may be able to fix things, even if it was a permanent spell. Pattern magic (which was mentioned in Forbidden Arcana) could potentially do the same. And there's a lot of stories about magic being done to change someone where they didn't get changed back, especially when you start talking about witches and curses or hexes.
But I stand by the idea that such things aren't unbalanced, as far as mechanics go, but due to lore they should be things that any players who get their hands on them should be circumspect about using, since they feed into the worst stereotypes of mages, which tends to bring the pitchfork and torches crew around.
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i dont see y you could not quicken the shapechange spell.
its semi-permanent. id say you cant mask the spell if the (let say frog) is far away. so if the frog manages to get to a magic user or spirit, they could disple your quickend spell. if the frog manages to get to a high background count the spell could fizzle to.
i dont see a balancing problem. its a high prize. and its less inversive as killing someone. if you want to carry your formaly archenemy as a puppy with you for roleplaying reasons and are prepared to learn the spell, buy the quality to use it on unwilling targets and spend karma for quickening... id say be my guest.
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I don't ... think anyone said you couldn't use Quickening on such a spell ...
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i dont see y you could not quicken the shapechange spell.
its semi-permanent. id say you cant mask the spell if the (let say frog) is far away. so if the frog manages to get to a magic user or spirit, they could disple your quickend spell. if the frog manages to get to a high background count the spell could fizzle to.
i dont see a balancing problem. its a high prize. and its less inversive as killing someone. if you want to carry your formaly archenemy as a puppy with you for roleplaying reasons and are prepared to learn the spell, buy the quality to use it on unwilling targets and spend karma for quickening... id say be my guest.
The original OP was suggesting that there should be a way to perform a magical shapechange that is innately permanent. Quickening an unwilling shapechange is totally do-able, but I was strongly opposed to the idea of there being a way to actually permanently change someone.
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How about a metamagical ability where you can make an illusion or manipulation spell permanent and immune to dispelling, but where you'd have to name conditions under which the spell will be broken ( such as when the princess kisses the frog and the frog reverts to a prince ). That seems somewhat like middle ground to me. You could require an Astral quest of the same rating as the spells force in order to learn the conditions under which it can broken.
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Dispelling a quickened spell is already going to be potentially difficult. It's a Magic + Counterspelling [Astral] vs. Force + caster's Magic + Karma spent test, with the net hits from Counterspelling reducing the quickened spell's Force, and the counterspeller takes drain as if they had cast that spell; the counterspeller can use a power or appropriate spell focus, of course. Odds are you're going to have to do this a few times over to actually destroy that spell. At the lowest possible level you could be looking at a maximum of 40 dice for a quickened spell to resist being dispelled (8 for Magic after Initiation to learn Quickening and with Exceptional Attribute, 16 for the spell's Force, 16 for the Karma spent to quicken); the suggestion of averages (rounding down) nets 13 hits to oppose being countered, which will likely exceed most any counterspeller's Astral limit if they're not spending a lot of reagents or Edge to break it. And if the aneurysm of the Physical drain of the first dispelling attempt doesn't kill them, another attempt right away might.
Now if the magician also knows Extended Masking to help conceal the fact that there's a quickened spell, you could be looking at up to 50 dice for defense (10 Magic, 20 Force, 20 Karma) with a suggested average (rounding down) of 16 hits, and that's assuming you've actually figured out there's a spell there in the first place.
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Yeah and if your dealing with a guy with a Magic of 10 and casting a Force 20 spell and sinking 20 karma into said quickening it should be hard as hell to dispel but I find those numbers to be pretty unrealistic unless you happen to be trying to dispell something cast by a Great dragon or Harlequin. Lets keep our stats in the realm of mere mortals and go with say Magic 7, force 7 and 7 karma for quickening which would be 21 Dice which is scary, I guess you could go to force 14 but then the casting mage has a hell of a physical drain check to deal with. And who the hell wants to spend 14 karma on this project any ways. I mean I guess if you REALLY pissed off the wicked witch of the west or some such it might happen. But then your also forgetting they can have a counter spelling skill of 12 (14 with specialization or since were not playing in the mortal play ground lets roll with 15 for exceptional skill of 13) Magic of 6 and I am at a matching 21 dice pool already add in a counter spell focus or a power focus of force 6 and your up to 27 dice which means I beat the 21 dice only thing I might have a problem with is the limit but spend some edge to bust the limit and add some dice or more likely re roll the failures since our pool is huge. Its like any other opposed test in the game if you got people playing on the same level they got a shot. Even if you go with the force 14 + 14 karma option for a pool of 35 it still do able with edge getting involved. As a general rule dispelling sucks because its an uphill battle but some times it needs to happen and that is what edge is for.
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If you are spending 20 Karma to quicken a single spell, I suggest 1 of the following has happened:
You have too much karma.
You have too much money (trading $$ for karma)
Your GM has lot his grip on resources
You are playing an extremely high powered game!
I have been playing the same character since 1e, and the most I have ever sank into quickening was 4 Karma... and I have earned just north of 5000 karma.
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I don't see an issue with it. We have books upon books of guns, knives, martial arts, lasers, poisons, nerve agents, Spells, Drones, explosives, spirits and even Para critters. Hell we even have rules for radiation. Finding ways to kill people is totally rampant. If some poor mage just can't bring themselves to One less some particular problem person, and they feel compelled to turn someone into a rabbit quicken the spell, and then drop them on the isle rabbit. Lest any of a fair long list of things don't accidentally turn said bunny back. Why the heck not? A bullet would have been a lot cheaper, more efficient and more definite but to each their own.
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I don't see an issue with it. We have books upon books of guns, knives, martial arts, lasers, poisons, nerve agents, Spells, Drones, explosives, spirits and even Para critters. Hell we even have rules for radiation. Finding ways to kill people is totally rampant. If some poor mage just can't bring themselves to One less some particular problem person, and they feel compelled to turn someone into a rabbit quicken the spell, and then drop them on the isle rabbit. Lest any of a fair long list of things don't accidentally turn said bunny back. Why the heck not? A bullet would have been a lot cheaper, more efficient and more definite but to each their own.
It's all good and fine until the GM looks at you and says:
"Roll body/willpower please. Ok, You are now a house at. Forever."
"Nope. It's forever. You can't dispel it. You are forever a house cat. Please roll a new character."
Only to have that repeated in another game...
There is a reason why many games have moved away from "Save or Die" mechanics (like saving throws in AD&D and 2e).
Now, the argument has been made that it's the same as shooting them. It's not. When you shoot there are 2 tests involved. The attack test and the damage resistance test. 2 attempts to potentially save your character. (Or reduce damage, and save your character!).
With what is being suggested, this is not the case. There is a simple resist roll that is a simple Pass/Fail: pass the test and nothing happens. Fail the test, game over. (Or at least for all intents)
Not a mechanic that endears you to players...
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I don't see an issue with it. We have books upon books of guns, knives, martial arts, lasers, poisons, nerve agents, Spells, Drones, explosives, spirits and even Para critters. Hell we even have rules for radiation. Finding ways to kill people is totally rampant. If some poor mage just can't bring themselves to One less some particular problem person, and they feel compelled to turn someone into a rabbit quicken the spell, and then drop them on the isle rabbit. Lest any of a fair long list of things don't accidentally turn said bunny back. Why the heck not? A bullet would have been a lot cheaper, more efficient and more definite but to each their own.
It's all good and fine until the GM looks at you and says:
"Roll body/willpower please. Ok, You are now a house at. Forever."
"Nope. It's forever. You can't dispel it. You are forever a house cat. Please roll a new character."
Only to have that repeated in another game...
There is a reason why many games have moved away from "Save or Die" mechanics (like saving throws in AD&D and 2e).
Now, the argument has been made that it's the same as shooting them. It's not. When you shoot there are 2 tests involved. The attack test and the damage resistance test. 2 attempts to potentially save your character. (Or reduce damage, and save your character!).
With what is being suggested, this is not the case. There is a simple resist roll that is a simple Pass/Fail: pass the test and nothing happens. Fail the test, game over. (Or at least for all intents)
Not a mechanic that endears you to players...
If it was mana kill spell i'd have same Chance Reaver. Killing characters is usually unpopular at most table, that's not news.
I've lost characters in shadowrun before and I will again. This actually arguably better as your party could possibly find you and bring you back. Your aura is still your aura and there way to locate those.
I stand by this just another way to kill characters. We have no shortage, and odds are we are only going to get more..
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Except that there are no spells where it kills you and you're done.
Do you mean a spell that damages you until you're dead? Those need to do a significant amount of damage, and even then you have protections from death by damage.
All of the other spells that could "kill" you, such as Petrify, Turn to Goo, etc. are all actually Sustained spells, so they only last as long as the mage can sustain them. This also means that there is a spell in place that can be dispelled, ending the effect.
Making a Shapechange spell that could be actually Permanent (not just Quickened, and therefore Sustained indefinitely) means there isn't a way to reverse or end the effect.
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Except that just such an option already exists with the crystalize power (and the fitting ritual to reverse the process)
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Critter Power exclusive to a unique, rare spirit does not mean that there should be a spell for that.
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It just shows that there is no IP reason for such a spell not to exist.
Getting one-shotted sucks, but there are already a few options in the game that achieve just that and allow you only one resistance check to avoid your fate (Contact vector toxins, mana spells, baleful transformation shapechange into a fish, disruption, turn to goo while standing over a grate, explosive traps, etc.)
So even on a conceptional level this wouldn't be a change in design philosophy.
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Actually, setting-wise, it makes perfect sense for there to be abilities available to otherworldy beings that are beyond the means of mortal magic.
So, just because a Spirit can do something, really doesn't mean that humans should be able to do something similar.
And I will reiterate, I don't have any problem with the idea of a baleful tranmutation, only with the suggestion that there should be a way to have one that is innately permanent.
On a side-note, I'm not sure I would consider any of those "options" as "one resistance check to avoid your fate"
Contact vector toxins - even immediate ones allow for a brief window where additional bonuses can be gained (Also, most are non-lethal).
Mana spells - while yes, allow only one check to resist, have been mostly sidelined due to the tiny amount of damage they deal. One spell is unlikely to doom anyone.
Baleful tranformation - Even into a fish, I know that I would give a PC chances to make resistance checks against suffocation, giving them time before they are dead for someone else to take out the mage and undo the spell.
Turn to Goo - The result of the spell is still mostly solid, I've always imagined it as an instant Gelatin substance, otherwise cast on anyone would just result in them falling over and being a puddle on the ground.
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That's a pretty arbitrary distinction - considering that there are spirits that teach spells and rituals to mortals, I'd say there is little reason to assume that there is more than conceptual limitations at work.
To turn your sentence around:
Just because so far only a spirit can do something, really doesn't mean that humans couldn't learn to do something similar.
So what? Adding boni to resistance tests is something you can do for all spells through counter magic and it's equivalents.
Mana spells prepared by a alchemist bomb maker can take down even a troll in one swoop - it's not even particularly difficult
Of course you as a GM can give players more tests to resist. It's just not RAW.
A "sticky, glue like substance" doesn't sound like something that would keep it's shape - especially not if it's not on solid ground.
But ignoring that for a moment: What about the Rot spell?
Single resistance test, get enough net successes and you permanently lower a subjects body. If you manage to lower it to 0 they die. Duration I.
That's an innately permanent effect.
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That's a pretty arbitrary distinction - considering that there are spirits that teach spells and rituals to mortals, I'd say there is little reason to assume that there is more than conceptual limitations at work.
You mean bound spirits assisting with learning? That's literally spirits just helping you learn spells you can already learn, not spirits teaching unique abilities.
To turn your sentence around:
Just because so far only a spirit can do something, really doesn't mean that humans couldn't learn to do something similar.
There are plenty of examples of powers and abilities that are unique to critters/spirits. They often work on a completely different level than mortal magic.
But ignoring that for a moment: What about the Rot spell?
Single resistance test, get enough net successes and you permanently lower a subjects body. If you manage to lower it to 0 they die. Duration I.
That's an innately permanent effect.
Touch-range spell (aka, second layer of defense), and it still has the same drain code of an indirect area combat spell, seems fair. It only destroys organs (which is what causes the Body reduction) if you manage to touch the chest. At two or three net successes it reduces Body by 1, at 4 or more it can do more. Fairly arbitrary if you ask me, if it came up in my game I would probably have it destroy an organ for every 2 net hits.
A pretty nasty effect, but fitting for the description. Its a negative health spell effectively causing necrosis. It's definitely a permanent effect, but it works pretty much on the same level as most Combat spells. Sure, you can kill somebody with spells, but it isn't exactly guaranteed, and even still it fits within the confines of our defined magical system.
A Manipulation spell that transforms the target into a completely different form permanently does not. Sustained? sure, but altering a creature's form into something completely different, and having that change cement and become irreversible is not what Manipulation spells do.
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1). historically shadowrun has not permitted such instantaneous and permanent transformations due to setting lore.
2). The errata team has issues with the bullshit "create food" spell, it may not live past the errata process if the errata process ever gets back on track.
Clearly whoever wrote that spell knew little about srun setting lore or magic in particular.
thanks and good night ;-)
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So ... yeah. Sorry, Jack Spade; there are reasons to not do such things.
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My point being, "If you think something is a good idea game wise: Think of it being used against you"
Most people have "cool" ideas. Be it spells from other settings, to sci-fi weapons that defy basic science, but when it comes to implementation into an actual game, they fall flat.
This is such an idea. Simply because there is no balance to it and it seems ABUSE from the high heavens! This has all the hallmarks of a Mary Sue power. There is no counter, there is no/little resistance to it, it has a massive effect for a small cost, it replaces multiple options of offense, AND can be used to bypass negative qualities.
1: as a permanent effect, it can not be removed, reversed, or misspelled. Once it takes effect, that is it.
2: since it causes no damage or no physical harm, those that have negative qualities that prevent or reduce combat effectiveness through violence will just use this.
3: there is no point to use ANY other combat or control spells as this single one has no down sides! Low successes needed to remove a combatant from combat forever. No need to sustain. No need for multiple castings to reduce the health pool (a-la friendly, ball lightning, etc).
But, you have the power to do whatever you want at your table. Including introducing new spells, technology, threats, or abilities.
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I'm not jumping up and down saying we should have this spell, it is against the traditions of SR. I'm just saying I don't have an issue with it existing. As Reaver pointed out, it's like Epic Spells, back in 3.5, it's better not to escalate. But if someone goes there all bets are off.
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As someone who has used custom spells in past editions (made with the spell creation rules, of course), I always made sure to run ANY custom spell past the GM prior to picking it up, even if I was just reskinning Flamethrower into something Ice-themed. Some of those spells I had were permanent transmutations (a permanent Petrify for instance). However, I probably only used it on a live combatant once or twice over the course of 4th Edition. Not because it wasn't effective, but because it was TOO effective. I had a gentleman's agreement with the GM that I could have the spell, but I would follow Wheaton's Law, and if I didn't, then the Geek the Mage First thing was getting dialed up to 11, or I'd get jumped by a black bag squad so a megacorp R&D lab can 'study' the spell. Either way, abusing the spell would lead to very severe consequences. Most of the time, I used it as a creative way to dispose of bodies, selling off my 'artwork' for the better-looking pieces. Anyone I used the spell on had already been taken out of combat, so it was a matter of expedited cleanup and getting out of dodge than hitting an 'I WIN' button.
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You mean bound spirits assisting with learning? That's literally spirits just helping you learn spells you can already learn, not spirits teaching unique abilities.
There are plenty of examples of powers and abilities that are unique to critters/spirits. They often work on a completely different level than mortal magic.
Touch-range spell (aka, second layer of defense), and it still has the same drain code of an indirect area combat spell, seems fair. It only destroys organs (which is what causes the Body reduction) if you manage to touch the chest. At two or three net successes it reduces Body by 1, at 4 or more it can do more. Fairly arbitrary if you ask me, if it came up in my game I would probably have it destroy an organ for every 2 net hits.
A pretty nasty effect, but fitting for the description. Its a negative health spell effectively causing necrosis. It's definitely a permanent effect, but it works pretty much on the same level as most Combat spells. Sure, you can kill somebody with spells, but it isn't exactly guaranteed, and even still it fits within the confines of our defined magical system.
A Manipulation spell that transforms the target into a completely different form permanently does not. Sustained? sure, but altering a creature's form into something completely different, and having that change cement and become irreversible is not what Manipulation spells do.
No, I mean the new quality in FA that allows a spirit to teach you 4 times a year various mortal magics
That is no proof whatsoever that mortals can't learn a form of that magic. Point in fact, I can have a PC using the crystalize ability. Granted, you need to jump through a few hoops (great spirit invocation of a crystaline entity and having enough successes for the endowment power), but after that you functionally have a way for a PC to permanently turn someone to stone (No they're minerals, Jesus Marie!).
So by that logic you'd be ok with a permanent turn to stone spell as long as it's touch range?
The "confines of the magical system" haven't been defined yet, except for the old adages "No resurrection", "No teleportation" and "No time travel".
There is no official system (yet) to design spells like in SR4 where such a spell was explicitly possible.
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Possible, but extremely not recommended.
Permanent transmutations are rare. They do exist, since all manner of magical weirdness is out there, but they are rare. Meaning that any spell you got that did that would be custom made, not something just anyone could get. Meaning you'd need to either make it yourself (with Arcana) or source it through a contact (which might be a run all its own). And using rare magic where there are witnesses is a great way to get a black bag invitation to a megacorp 'research group', or an unfortunate case of high velocity lead poisoning.
EDIT: But as with anything custom or not explicitly in the rules, you need GM approval for it first. And they'd definitely be within their rights to throw it out or modify it if they think it would be a problem for their game. If you're looking for a cool trick to use all the time, that's probably going to get you dead. If you're looking for an ace in the hole, to only be pulled out when you really, really need it, that is more likely to be accepted by most.
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Chosen Follower is still just learning normal spells, just like Assisted Learning from Bound Spirits it doesn't give you access to a different spell list. I don't see how that has any bearing on what should and should not be a spell.
Jumping through all those hoops to get access to Crystallize (good luck Binding a Crystalline Entity, let alone trying to Invoke its great form) is still not normal spellcasting. It is literally just giving a human temporary access to a spirit power. So still not reason for a spell.
While there may not be rules for spell creation in the current edition, we still have parameters to go by. There are plenty of examples of spells to look at, and none of them do the "permanent transmutation thing"
EDIT: oh, and since you mentioned the 4E rules, the creation of this spell is explicitly NOT ALLOWED. I quoted the appropriate text back on the first page of this thread. But the creation guidelines in Street Magic specifically said that spells that don't restore a being to its natural state shouldn't be permanent.
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Point of order, Kiirnodel. "Shouldn't" is a far cry from "cannot". Cannot means it is not possible, under any circumstances. Shouldn't means it is very likely to unbalance things and you should be very, very careful with it, if you allow it at all.
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Fair point, however it's definitely a lot closer than the "explicitly possible" which is what Jack_Spade last said.
There's a specific rule against it.
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There's a specific rule saying it is possible, but highly discouraged. In, say, HERO System, this would be where they'd have stop signs in the book to make sure everyone knows this can have gamebreaking potential.
Tread those waters carefully, or you may wish it was only dragons you needed to deal with in the end.
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To derail the topic a little am I correct in reading the latest posts that to learn Crystalize you need to have a great form cyrstal entity teach you? Its not a spell/ability I've ever paid any attention to as I'm not a fan of turn to stone/crystal spells (which may seem odd given my other posts but there it is).
As for the shapechange spell after thinking about it and reading the other posts I just wanted to clarify I do still feel its thematically appropriate given the stories and legends of such changes however I am willing to work with the current mechanic of quickening which achieves a similar result. That is they are turned into a rabbit and will remain one barring outside intervention but it is not a transformation of their natural stat i.e. its sustained by the spell vs instant (if you see what I mean). Is that an acceptable compromise?
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No, you can't learn the crystallize power. You can temporarily gain access to it by getting a Crystalline Entity to be invoked into great form and gaining the Endowment power. That gives it the ability to grant powers to others temporarily. But at the same time you also now have a great form otherworldly entity that you've kissed off by binding it...
EDIT: And yes, the most straight-forward way to do a "permanent" shapechange is through a normal shapechange spell and then use Quickening to make it self-sustaining.
Mirikon: is there a specific rule that I'm missing somewhere? The rules in 4th edition don't really read that way to me (that is to say, I read them as: here are the guidelines for making balanced spells, not: you can do anything you want, but we don't recommend you go outside this).
The restriction on Permanent spells is written as: Only X, Y, Z, spells should be permanent. It doesn't really seem like it is giving allowance or specifically ruling that otherwise is possible...
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True, but IMO it's worth it to crystallize a Mother Insect spirit before she starts her hive, and then have my sniper buddy hit her using a Barrett rifle with APDS..... Can you say shatter?
And the spirit might (slim chance, but hey...) not be destructively mad at me afterward.....
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well, the Crystallize power isn't exactly instantaneous either. It deals damage like a Spirit's Elemental attack. The only exception is that instead of killing, it turns the target into crystal when their condition monitor fills up.
So yeah, even that isn't a great example of one-stop death abilities.
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Mirikon: is there a specific rule that I'm missing somewhere? The rules in 4th edition don't really read that way to me (that is to say, I read them as: here are the guidelines for making balanced spells, not: you can do anything you want, but we don't recommend you go outside this).
The restriction on Permanent spells is written as: Only X, Y, Z, spells should be permanent. It doesn't really seem like it is giving allowance or specifically ruling that otherwise is possible...
I'm reading the same rule as you, but I read it differently, Kiirnodel. Especially since, out of everything, there are only a few 'hard stops' in place: reviving the dead, time travel, teleportation, etc.. Everything else is either possible, or may be possible, if someone figures out how.
You are reading 'only X, Y, Z spells should be permanent' as 'only X, Y, Z spells can be permanent', which is not what the language indicates. It is a balance recommendation thing, and I've seen similar language in other games before. It is a warning that going outside of X, Y, Z for permanent spells can cause things to be unbalanced, which is why it states that GM should make the call on whether it is allowed. Compare that language to what is used in the 'Limits of Sorcery' sidebar in that same section, which is distinctly full of language like CANNOT, with not even a hint of being able to ask for GM approval.
When you have things that are explicitly disallowed, that implies that everything else is possible. But as Ian Malcolm would say, you can get too focused on whether you could do something to think on whether you should, which is why you have the language we're both referencing.
So, by everything I've seen, it is not against the rules to make a permanent petrify spell, but it can unbalance a game quickly, just like something such as superspeed can screw with a game in a superhero system. So you need to be aware of the pitfalls before they happen. It is like on old maps where people wrote "Here be Dragons". Doesn't mean you CANNOT go there, but, well, probably not a great idea unless you really know what you're doing.
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Yeah, ok. I can see where you're coming from. But people need to stop saying things like it is "explicitly possible."
Like you pointed out, the phrasing is not hard stop, but taking the allowance as granted is definitely not there either.
It is implicitly not impossible. The rules never say you can, just doesn't say you can't.
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Exactly. Which would put it in the category of 'rare and/or unique magic'. Which means getting it would either require investment in the Arcana skill, or possibly a run to get the spell formula from someone who does, and then using the thing where there are any witnesses is a good way to get a whole lot of heat drawn on you, over and above whatever else your run brings your way. There are plenty of 'in game' ways to discourage a player from abusing such spells if they become problematic.