[Fedifensor]

Groveler is unbalanced, as can be seen when you compare a Technomancer with it to a Technomancer without it.  If your argument is “Technomancers suck”, then the solution shouldn’t be to force every Technomancer to take a 10 point Quality to not suck.

[Marcus]

I basically agree with you Hobbes. This is not at all the solution I was hoping for, but it's a solution I'll accept if it does the job.

If something is epicly terrible and something makes it less terrible it doesn't mean it's unbalanced Fedi, it just means it really under powered to begin with which we all know it was.

[Triskavanski]

Okay, if we’re concerned about Groveler costing 10 points, let’s balance the scales.  We’ll spend 13 points for the mage to initiate and get Centering.  Heck, we’ll even assuming the mage has previously initiated twice before, and is up to Initiate level 3.  That means Centering gives him 3 bonus dice to resist drain, which on average is 1 extra point of Drain negated.


That doesn’t hold a candle to Groveler.


Furthermore, in the time it takes a mage to collect some drams, a Technomancer can steal thousands of Nuyen basically risk-free.  In fact, once the Technomancer has sufficient dice of Hardware, they can steal cars and permanently change ownership.  At that point, jobs may not be the Technomancer’s biggest source of income.


Groveler is a 10 point quality that removes the main disadvantage of being a Technomancer.  When drain is no longer an issue, you can constantly remove your Overwatch, take over any device, grab any file, etc.  You can even do all of those things in AR (so you don’t get locked down by Black IC after failing a roll).  Heck, once you take a Resonant Stream, you can do things like crash hosts, or do ALL THE THINGS in a single action with Hyperthreading. It is in no way balanced, and breaks the game for anything involving the Matrix.


Shadowrun Missions is cited because it’s the largest-scale example of the rules in use, which means instead of theorizing how something might work in play, we can see it in action.  I expect SR Missions to nerf Groveler pretty soon, if errata doesn’t get to it first.

Well if going that way, might be better to start off with the right foci vs initiation.

And yeah. We are going with gathering regents. Its a way mages can get free drams that can work at keeping them ahead in the whole expense thing.

But if its still about not spending enough nuyen, we could have it sacrifice 20 data chips.

Or we could go with an hour of computer use to put data onto chips, like a regeant gathering. Could set it up that you can only do it in hosts, and takes days for it to recharge

[Hobbes]

Groveler is unbalanced, as can be seen when you compare a Technomancer with it to a Technomancer without it.  If your argument is “Technomancers suck”, then the solution shouldn’t be to force every Technomancer to take a 10 point Quality to not suck.

Technomancer without Groveler:  Thread Puppeteer at Level 2, Paragon path Delphi, use one Service from a Level 5+ Sprite on "Enhance", Puppeteer is now Limit 6.  Technomancer gets 0 hits on Fade Resistance, takes 2 stun with the option to burn a service from a Companion Sprite to use the Shield power to reduce to 1 Stun. 

Technomancer with Groveler: Thread Puppeteer at Level 5, Paragon Path Delphi, tosses 12 Data chips, Puppeteer is the same Limit 6.  Technomancer gets 0 hits on Fade Resistance, takes 2 Stun with the same option to reduce to 1 stun with the Companion Sprite / Shield power.

One way costs 10 Karma at Chargen, the other costs Sprite Services, exactly the same outcomes.  Some folks will take Groveler because they don't want the Sprite bookeeping, others will happily check off the Services to save 10 Karma at chargen for something else.  Seems balanced to me, but clearly YMMV.

And yes.  "Technomancers Suck" is a completely valid reason to not take away their toys.  Big Picture, a Technomancer couldn't unbalance the game if it wanted to.

[Triskavanski]

Besides that, a Technomancer without groveler doesn't have to try and mimic one with groveler. Its been years since the game came out, and people, like me, have created and played technomancers without it.

Without it, I might actually go for a cyber-technomancer.
Or stick with my Juice-o-mancer. Or heck I could make a pretty wild Face-o-mancer.