Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Barskor on <09-25-11/0425:03>
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The GTS Tower Arsenal book pages 121/122
Modified with increasing its stop and go Manuvering with Turbo Charger 4 Chameleon Coating 2 Improved Sensors
Handling 0 Acceleration 30/70 Speed 120 Pilot 3 Body 4 Armor 2 Sensor 3
Comes with Wepons mount external flexable remote controlled and so you allways can get a signal through a Retransmiter signal 6
Of coarse we upgrade piloting to whatever the GM will let us and add Clearsight and Gunnery Sensors to need raised as high as possable.
Rename it Goad
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The old "cheese" way of getting an aerial sniper was slap a rifle into a LS blimp drone.
Darn near invisible and by strict rules it suffers no recoil.
-k
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I can't figure out why you took out the drone rack. Ten Heimdalls, half AV half HE, guided by a skilled rigger/TM, are going to hit pretty much anything heavy you need hit. 6 turns at 3,000 m per turn means it can be so far out of sight and range it's practically untouchable -- and certainly unnoticed.
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I was building it late in my night time and I thought I needed the slots for the other things so back go's the drone wrack.
The gun I would like the Ares Thunderstruck with Extended Barrel, Extended clip Drum, Firing selection change large adding BF , Improved Range finder and Smart Link
The old "cheese" way of getting an aerial sniper was slap a rifle into a LS blimp drone.
Darn near invisible and by strict rules it suffers no recoil.
-k
If it Saves my bottom it can come in what ever flavor of cheese it likes. lol
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I was building it late in my night time and I thought I needed the slots for the other things so back go's the drone wrack.
The gun I would like the Ares Thunderstruck with Extended Barrel, Extended clip Drum, Firing selection change large adding BF , Improved Range finder and Smart Link
The old "cheese" way of getting an aerial sniper was slap a rifle into a LS blimp drone.
Darn near invisible and by strict rules it suffers no recoil.
-k
If it Saves my bottom it can come in what ever flavor of cheese it likes. lol
I haven't figured the reason for love of the Thunderstruck. The Barrett has the same range, same damage, same AP, same mode, has better RC. It carries more ammo per clip, and it's both less expensive and more available.
Oh, and I can put the Barrett in the Tower's weapon mount. (Is the assault cannon equal to or less than the LMG in size/weight? AFAIK, it's heavier. Which means I need a heavier mount.)
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It is loved because it cuts armor values in half and then again by -4 Panthers can't do that Barretts don't do it eather it is singular. check errata
But looking over weapon mount rules it looks like i will have to pick a lighter weapon any how.
So Barrett 121 with extended barrel Extened clip drum, firing selection chang adding BF Improved range finder and smart gun link.
I am happy are you?
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Ah, forgot the 1/2 armor.
So.... SnS ammo? ;D
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The problem is I cant imagine silencing an assault canon and that potentially draws a lot of attention to your drone. I prefer getting a very nice sniper rifle and Anti Vehicle rounds on it. I think realistically you will get more shots off at lower risk to your very expensive equipment.
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LOL would SNS evan survive impact?
The premis is A stable firing platform that can simulate shots coming from buildings and such high places and be capable of quickly repositioning to face an ever changing battlefield.
Thus generating false leads as hottle rooms are checked for cluse and so on
The problem is I cant imagine silencing an assault canon and that potentially draws a lot of attention to your drone. I prefer getting a very nice sniper rifle and Anti Vehicle rounds on it. I think realistically you will get more shots off at lower risk to your very expensive equipment.
Yes attention drawn to the drone is reduced by the Chameleon Coating
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The problem is I cant imagine silencing an assault canon and that potentially draws a lot of attention to your drone.
That's why you give it to the Troll Muscle. They're cheaper and much more easily available on the market. ;D
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Yes yes, I know, the Special Hell.
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Yes yes, I know, the Special Hell.
CanRay, did you take advantage of that girl? With your "troll muscle" no less?
Seriously though, chameleon coating is great, but blimps are slow and once you fire the cannon all the camo in the world wont protect a blimp for long from a well equipped team. Let the troll character take that weapon and all the return fire and save your money as the rigger by playing it smart and quiet
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No troll could skipp from building to building and keep a good rate of fire into the Z where as a blimp can switch in combate rounds or just free fly without lining up buildings for fake trajectorys spelled wrong damit!
CanRay, did you take advantage of that girl? With your "troll muscle" no less?
Seriously though, chameleon coating is great, but blimps are slow and once you fire the cannon all the camo in the world wont protect a blimp for long from a well equipped team. Let the troll character take that weapon and all the return fire and save your money as the rigger by playing it smart and quiet
I could get 3 or so trolls for 30,000 set up indiferant locals but the trolls might talk if caught and the drone can't if program right or armed with self destruct.
My modified blimp is as fast as some Motercycles faster in the Acceleration 30/70 so go find a fast vehical with all the capabilitys of this one and you have a point.
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How the hell do you get the Tower or any other blimp to 30/70 acceleration?
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Turbo charging has 4 ratings and each one adds 5/10 to your Acceleration if we cut the beniffits in half it would be 20/50 so ka.
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Yeah but turbo charger is only for gas or diesel powered vehicles. I know for sure the stormcloud blimp is solar/electric powered and I always assumed the other blimp style drone would operate on similar mechanics and would say that as a GM. Even if your GM was the kind of guy who let you turbocharge a blimp, it would limited to three levels, the equivalent of the body because turbocharger is limited to the lower of 4 times or the body of the vehicle.
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No troll could skipp from building to building and keep a good rate of fire into the Z where as a blimp can switch in combate rounds or just free fly without lining up buildings for fake trajectorys spelled wrong damit!
Actually, given the jumping rules in SR, that troll might be quite a bit more mobile than you may imagine.
Also, note that removing equipment that comes standard on a vehicle does not actually give you back more modification slots.
You want real cheese? Don't mount the weapon on the flying drone directly. Slap a Barrett into an Arachne Drone. Give the drone the Limited Mobility option to increase it's slots and mod the hell out of it. Then just have it cling to the bottom of a stealth-modded flying drone.
-k
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How the hell do you get the Tower or any other blimp to 30/70 acceleration?
Blimp? no. Rigid or semirigid airship? yes - though it's pushing what we know of the design limits.
The airships of the time were capable of reaching and sustaining 144 kph in short order (for the time). The limitations appeared to be more those of the engines than of the envelope and its support structure.
If the player came to me and said they were going to do this, I'd probably tell them no -- at least, not with the Tower. While it's not using an electric fuel engine (it'd say so, just like the Renraku Stormcloud does), it's still a design issue in conjunction with this type of airframe. Looking at my references (the ones about airships, not Shadowrun) I'd allow it to get turbo 1, but that's about it.
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Well go big or go home as they say.
Thundercloud Contrail racing bike 10 slots page 108 AR 5,000
Lighter than Air 1 slot 2.400
Improved sensor Array1 slot 1,000
Chameleon Coating 2 slots 6,000
Weapon Mount Renforced size External Fixed Flexability 2 slots 4,000 and now I can have an Assault cannon on board
Turbo Charger rating 4 4 slots 240
Handling -1 Acelleration 30/60 or 20/40 Speed 90 Piolt 1 Body 6 Armor 4 Sensors 1
18,640
I need to up Piloting Sensor and Gunnery clearsight progs and so on.
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Sadly without a motorcycle gyroscope the thing cant drive itself by RAW if I understand the rules correctly and if you are going to try and gimmick the situation with that ridiculous contraption I would enforce the gyroscope rule.
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Why would it need the gyroscope?
The purpose of the gyroscope is to let it self balance on only two wheels.
If it's flying why would that matter?
Also, not thinking big enough. LTA mod on a bus. :)
-k
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Sadly without a motorcycle gyroscope the thing cant drive itself by RAW if I understand the rules correctly and if you are going to try and gimmick the situation with that ridiculous contraption I would enforce the gyroscope rule.
First go read the rules Second it only needs a gyroscope to remain up right if it remained a motercycle What you and others seem to have a problem with the tranformitve effects that kits have to reshape the basic forms too new purposs.
Sol step back take a deep breath look over what you typed and ask am I a railroader gm?
When you are done adding a kit that takes a shop or facility the whole vehical gets rebuilt to be a new vehical with a new look and shape capable of performing the new tasks asked of them.
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HMm a bus whell lets see A runner home in the sky?
New thread move down move down
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Houseboat in the sky. Land it out of radar range and just drive it into a marina. ;D
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Why would it need the gyroscope?
The purpose of the gyroscope is to let it self balance on only two wheels.
If it's flying why would that matter?
Also, not thinking big enough. LTA mod on a bus. :)
-k
If it is flying why would the turbocharger designed to spin the wheels of the motorcycle faster matter? Once you start taking something apart and turning it into something radically different than it was intended to be in order to try and abuse it's stats without any logical connection there is no respect left. LTA mods on a bus just makes a big blimp, what Barskor is trying to do is make a really fast blimp. Big blimps are not that uncommon an idea, fast blimps are ridiculous and contrary to the intent of the LTA design
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If it is flying why would the turbocharger designed to spin the wheels of the motorcycle faster matter? Once you start taking something apart and turning it into something radically different than it was intended to be in order to try and abuse it's stats without any logical connection there is no respect left. LTA mods on a bus just makes a big blimp, what Barskor is trying to do is make a really fast blimp. Big blimps are not that uncommon an idea, fast blimps are ridiculous and contrary to the intent of the LTA design
Solomon the whole point of all the mods and vehicles in the book Arsenal is for the purpose of making new vehicles out of standard vehicles.
So lets look at the text LTA mods,
Lighter than Air (All): All what you ask? Every vehicle in the book Motercycles included with the Errata of Body 16 or less.
So it is just you with the miss conception that LTAs have to be slow.
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The intent is to personalize and enhance existing vehicles more than making something radically new. It also says that the speed, acceleration and handling are significantly lowered because blimps are slow and not manueverable - within the RWA rules you may be able to do what you propose (still not sure many GMS would let you turbocharge the blimp but that is up to them) but it really seems way out of the grasp of physics and mechanics
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So your opinion the whole book is about personalizing existing vehicles? they have one for that it's called Pimp your Ride and comes in 2 ratings.
Lets look at the various vehicle changing mods and thier requirments to see how restricted they are.
Amphibious Operation Ugrade(All, Groundcraft only)
Assembly Time Improvment (All)
Ballast Tanks (All,Watercraft Only)
Ducted Waterjet (All, Watercraft Only)
Floatation (All,Aircraft Only)
Flying Fox Gliding System ( All, Groundcraft with a body of 12 or less)
Hovercraft Upgrade ( All,Groundcraft Only)
And so on Each one Specifies What kind of vehicles it works on so When an entry reads ALL Gosh darnit I belive it and your saying that I am takeing advantage and twisting things to suit me I The intent is to personalize and enhance existing vehicles more than making something radically new. This is your opinion And quite Turrtleish in mine. It also says that the speed, acceleration and handling are significantly lowered because blimps are slow and not manueverable And that is Payed for by accepting the Template and after you Accept that you move on and Further modify to mittagate the loss - within the RWA rules you may be able to do what you propose (still not sure many GMS would let you turbocharge the blimp but that is up to them) but it really seems way out of the grasp of physics and mechanics
If 1940ish tech can make a Zepplin sturdy enough to crusie at 144 kph I think by 2072 we can at lest come close.
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When I say personalize I dont mean fuzzy dice in the mirror I mean the intent is the same as the way you customize your guns. You dont change the overall type of gun or the intent of the gun or even it's main functions, you tweak it to fit your style. Making your bike a speedy getaway vehicle or a heavy armor combat bike, not make it a blimp drone for your sniper rifle. If your GM thinks that is okay, more power to you, to me it seems a cheap manipulation of the rules to try and put a turbocharged motorcycle on a blimp frame and act like it all works in perfect harmony.
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There you go Cheap Manipulation ? You Sir missed the whole point of a third of the Arsenal book
( If your GM thinks that is okay, more power to you, to me it seems a cheap manipulation of the rules to try and put a turbocharged motorcycle on a blimp frame and act like it all works in perfect harmony. )
You missed the point Again It is not a Motercycle it is parts of one that used or discarded and New stuff added till it is a new vehicle in whole not looking like a Frankinstine's bride of crap slaped together.
Coments removed and Solomon I am sorry that I got upset and named called.
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It is in fact possible to discuss something without resorting to personal attacks and judgements, folks.
I'm not a moderator, but not doing so tends to cause threads to devolve into flamewars and get locked. Which would be a shame since this thread has had some interesting ideas.
-k
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See, I think we differ on our interpretation here. The rules in arsenal arent for building new and unique vehicles out of parts, they are for modifying existing vehicles. Your idea that building something totally new out of old parts isnt the same thing as modifying the basic machine to perform in slightly new ways. The rules are clearly about modification not total re-invention.
We all only post ideas here to get feedback which includes criticism and judgment. If I crossed the line from critique to offense I apologize but I stand by my position on the rules if not any accidental emotional injury there. I dont get offended easily so I am not worried if you said something, no big deal from my end
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Look at Walker mods It says that bipedal forms Are turned into the Classical representations of Robots Not cars with leggs and arms but robots plane as day.
Look at Hovercraft upgrade This modification TURNS the vehicle into a hovercraft, Clearly stating that this was something eles first.
Look in your main book page 101 The drone rigger what do you see in the background is it a flamin CAR? no it is a Classical Robot.
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Yeah and you can buy drones that are classic robots, you dont need to turn a motorcycle into one.
The walker mod is for all groundcraft of a limited size, so nobody is turning their boat into one and it is just as often a spider looking construction as a classic robot. Same idea with the hovercraft - which in many cases supplements the wheeled vehicle with a hovercraft addition not a total replacement. They are actually significant modifications, true, but not designed to get around the laws of physics or mechanics and make a highly manuverable and quick handling turbo charged hot air balloon
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If the player came to me and said they were going to do this, I'd probably tell them no -- at least, not with the Tower. While it's not using an electric fuel engine (it'd say so, just like the Renraku Stormcloud does), it's still a design issue in conjunction with this type of airframe. Looking at my references (the ones about airships, not Shadowrun) I'd allow it to get turbo 1, but that's about it.
The Renraku Stormcloud and the GTS Tower are completely different beasts.
Stormcloud: Handling -3 Accel 5/10 Speed 25
Tower: Handling 0 Accel 10/30 Speed 120
Also, consider that the size difference between a medium drone like the stormcloud and a large drone like the tower is like the difference between a dog and a small car.
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not designed to get around the laws of physics or mechanics and make a highly manuverable and quick handling turbo charged hot air balloon
One we are not "Getting around Physics Two" it is not a "Hot air balloon" given the nature of the power plant and stresses the body would need to be a Zepplin and as Zepplins have a strong rigid structure and tight fitting outer skin,I have to ask what is your real problem?
Any way in real life people often take one type of vehicle and make a new one of a diferent type Like car moters with airplanes build around thier performance capabilitys and Fanboats helocopers snowmobilis and the list go's on.
How good looking the conversion looks depends on the mechanic with body pannels and housings.
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I think his problem is, you can't take a motorcycle, slap a balloon (with or without rigid structure underneath - those semantics have nothing to do with the real question here) on it, and have it fly at the same speed and handling as it has along the ground.
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Thundercloud Contrail racing bike 10 slots page 108 AR 5,000
Lighter than Air 1 slot 2.400
Improved sensor Array1 slot 1,000
Chameleon Coating 1 slots 6,000
Weapon Mount Renforced size External Fixed Flexability 2 slots 4,000 and now I can have an Assault cannon on board
Turbo Charger rating 4 4 slots 240
Rigger Addaptation 2,500
Handling -1 Acelleration 30/60 or 20/40 Speed 90 Piolt 1 Body 6 Armor 4 Sensors 1
21,140
Look at the bolded section Speed was cut in half so was Acceleration I even compromised and put in a half effective Turbo charger stats.
So you costsof it must be slower and less manuverable have allready been paid.
As a comparasin here is the regular bike without lighter than air mod .
Handling +1 Acceleration 40/80 Speed 180 Piolt 1 Armor 4 Sensor 1 do you see the differance?
I think his problem is, you can't take a motorcycle, slap a balloon (with or without rigid structure underneath - those semantics have nothing to do with the real question here) on it, and have it fly at the same speed and handling as it has along the ground.
As i have shown above there is a large loss of performace and as it being a motercycle it wouldn't be one by the time your done if I were doing the rebuild the tires would go forks front and back turn the engine sidways to the front of the vehicle add some structurs for aerodynamic body panals(perhappes a seat in the nose cone) and in the back structural fram for a ducted fan and its control linkages/servos.
After all that dose it realy LOOK like a Motercycle? I think not.
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not designed to get around the laws of physics or mechanics and make a highly manuverable and quick handling turbo charged hot air balloon
One we are not "Getting around Physics Two" it is not a "Hot air balloon" given the nature of the power plant and stresses the body would need to be a Zepplin and as Zepplins have a strong rigid structure and tight fitting outer skin,I have to ask what is your real problem?
Any way in real life people often take one type of vehicle and make a new one of a diferent type Like car moters with airplanes build around thier performance capabilitys and Fanboats helocopers snowmobilis and the list go's on.
How good looking the conversion looks depends on the mechanic with body pannels and housings.
The problem is that a zepplin doesnt turn on a dime and manuever quickly or accelerate quickly. A modern blimp or zeppelin has a top speed of like 78mph. Even in the future I cant imagine a blimp going to that top speed in 3 seconds. That is ridiculous. We have turbochargers and high speed engines now and we dont have blimps hitting speeds like that at all and they arent doing it in 3 seconds. My problem is that what you are doing is cheap mechanical manipulation to bend the rules.Iit is stuff like that which made my GM reluctant to even consider modifications to equipment at all
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Shadowrun uses the metric system so comparing 78 mph to 90 kph is not that far off. You think -1 handling is turn on a dime? lol try +3 handling for turning on a dime. The time it takes to get too top speed is longer than you think as well more like 12 seconds becausse the top end is so low.
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Top speed isnt the issue, it is the acceleration issue. Getting to 78 miles per hour takes a blimp a lot longer than a few seconds the way you propose. There are plenty of trucks that have -1 handling and they can manuever pretty easily compared to a blimp
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not designed to get around the laws of physics or mechanics and make a highly manuverable and quick handling turbo charged hot air balloon
One we are not "Getting around Physics Two" it is not a "Hot air balloon" given the nature of the power plant and stresses the body would need to be a Zepplin and as Zepplins have a strong rigid structure and tight fitting outer skin,I have to ask what is your real problem?
Any way in real life people often take one type of vehicle and make a new one of a diferent type Like car moters with airplanes build around thier performance capabilitys and Fanboats helocopers snowmobilis and the list go's on.
How good looking the conversion looks depends on the mechanic with body pannels and housings.
The problem is that a zepplin doesnt turn on a dime and manuever quickly or accelerate quickly. A modern blimp or zeppelin has a top speed of like 78mph. Even in the future I cant imagine a blimp going to that top speed in 3 seconds. That is ridiculous. We have turbochargers and high speed engines now and we dont have blimps hitting speeds like that at all and they arent doing it in 3 seconds. My problem is that what you are doing is cheap mechanical manipulation to bend the rules.Iit is stuff like that which made my GM reluctant to even consider modifications to equipment at all
OK, I need to interject. A modern BLIMP has a top speed of 50 to 60 mph. That's 80 to 96 kph. That's 67 to 80 m per combat turn. That said a modern BLIMP is neither a rigid nor semi-rigid airship. We don't make rigids any more, but using the engines of the 1930s they were getting 144 kph. Call it 90 miles per hour. 144 kph is a speed of 120 m per combat turn.
For semirigids we've actually got a modern to look at. Zeppelin NT can do 125 kph - a bit over 100 m per combat turn.
Now your points about acceleration and maneuverability are valid. Even the rigid airframe would be pressed to withstand an acceleration of more than 45, and as for turning on a dime, well, it does it as well as an elephant can stand en pointe.
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Yeah my problem has never been about the top speed, just the acceleration and manueverability issues
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See, I think we differ on our interpretation here. The rules in arsenal arent for building new and unique vehicles out of parts, they are for modifying existing vehicles. Your idea that building something totally new out of old parts isnt the same thing as modifying the basic machine to perform in slightly new ways. The rules are clearly about modification not total re-invention.
And all that should have been stated as Your Opinion As there are about 8 Major modifications that radicaly change vehicle function and the rest tweek performace and add Gimick devices and such.
We will apparently never agree so say la vi.
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Yeah but turbo charger is only for gas or diesel powered vehicles. I know for sure the stormcloud blimp is solar/electric powered and I always assumed the other blimp style drone would operate on similar mechanics and would say that as a GM. Even if your GM was the kind of guy who let you turbocharge a blimp, it would limited to three levels, the equivalent of the body because turbocharger is limited to the lower of 4 times or the body of the vehicle.
Yah i tracked down the Stormcloud and it is a Medium sized Crappy electric drone body 3 and the Tower is a large size drone body 4 with no specified type of power source. So not only do we have a more robust Body but our choies of power trains . Turbo chargers bottom half of the paragraph can be made for other fuel sources it just requiers GM fiate yo just can't get the hang of reading everything on a subject or your deliberatly leaving out any thing that does not support your position. both are reprehensible.
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Yeah but turbo charger is only for gas or diesel powered vehicles. I know for sure the stormcloud blimp is solar/electric powered and I always assumed the other blimp style drone would operate on similar mechanics and would say that as a GM. Even if your GM was the kind of guy who let you turbocharge a blimp, it would limited to three levels, the equivalent of the body because turbocharger is limited to the lower of 4 times or the body of the vehicle.
Yah i tracked down the Stormcloud and it is a Medium sized Crappy electric drone body 3 and the Tower is a large size drone body 4 with no specified type of power source. So not only do we have a more robust Body but our choies of power trains . Turbo chargers bottom half of the paragraph can be made for other fuel sources it just requiers GM fiate yo just can't get the hang of reading everything on a subject or your deliberatly leaving out any thing that does not support your position. both are reprehensible.
When arguing on a forum where you cant speak for the GM of any given game, it is my policy to not include anything considered optional as part of the canon. Nothing reprehensible about sticking to points that are consistent. Also, when you quote me you need to pay attention to what you quote. I clearly said some GMs may let you turbocharge a blimp. I also said I assumed the blimps operated in a consistent manner in regards to power, especially because LTA says it reduces operating time and engine emissions and a turocharger really isnt consistent with that at all. Please pay attention to what I actually said. Dont pretend that because you want to twink out an unrealistic machine my arguments have no validity or that I said things I didnt say.
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1 And you to says mr kettle to mr pot. 2 Never ASS- U- ME anything when there are so many variables to what the power plants could be as it depends on the base vehicle you are modifying.
3[/b ]LTA increases operating time by 10. Fuel consumption is reduced nothing about emmisions is mentioned in the text. 4 That is your opinion not fact.
When arguing on a forum where you cant speak for the GM of any given game, it is my policy to not include anything considered optional as part of the canon. Nothing reprehensible about sticking to points that are consistent. Also, when you quote me 1 you need to pay attention to what you quote. I clearly said some GMs may let you turbocharge a blimp. I also said 2 I assumed the blimps operated in a consistent manner in regards to power, especially because LTA says it reduces operating time and engine emissions and4 a turocharger really isnt consistent with that at all. Please pay attention to what I actually said. Dont pretend that because you want to twink out an unrealistic machine my arguments have no validity or that I said things I didnt say.
What is fact is this the complet text for the vehicle Modification.
Lighter Than Air (ALL): The vehicle is mounted on a zepplin or blimp frame, so it can now loiter over an area for days. The gasbag is filled with a nonflamable gas, and is compartmentalized so that no single puncture will deflate the whole bag. As a result, the fuel consumption of an LTA craft is radicaly reduced, so it's operation time is multipledby 10. Speed and Acceleration are cut in half,however, While Handling is reduced by 2, but the craft gains Level 2 improved takeoff and landing capacity.
So what kinds of vehicles are available for this mod? why ALL. Does the mod change the engine at all NO. Your objections are what? thats right baseless.
The benifits and penaltys are all ready layed out and applied. Your Disbelife of what can be and what is, is not a point if fact to chang anything.
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My objections remain consistent that blimps dont manuever well and dont accelerate quickly. Just because there is one circumstance in the rules where you can do something to make a rapid accelerating blimp if you absolutely ignore even the little realism which exists in a game like shadowrun to justify your ridiculous creation doesnt change the facts about blimp mechanics or the laws of physics or that everything you are doing would only be accepted by incredibly infrequent GMs in my experience. Regardless, I am done debating with you. We dont play in the same games so there is no real point to the debate because your motoblimpsniper will never exist in the same scenario as my characters and the same is true in reverse so there is no impact worth continuing a pointless fight headed towards personal insults and thread lock at the least
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Take a rigid airship and add vectored thrust.
Suddenly you are the most maneuverable thing to ever be in the sky.
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Blimps and airships were using thrust vectoring in the 1930s and still do today. They still wallow like pigs compared to helicopters and planes. It physics, which means it is like magic but, you know, not really
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I'm pretty sure Kontact means "jet-powered vectored thrust", not merely "any old kind of thrust which can be directed".
-k
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Blimps and airships were using thrust vectoring in the 1930s and still do today. 1They still wallow like pigs compared to helicopters and planes. It physics, which means it is like magic but, you know, not really
1Gees I wonder if thats why they have Handling drop by 2 points and cut Speed and Acceleration in half? You know to reflect how zepplin whalow like pigs.
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Well, it's possible that LTA should have just replaced the existing speed with set figures rather than modifying the existing speed.
-k
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Well, it's possible that LTA should have just replaced the existing speed with set figures rather than modifying the existing speed.
-k
Then what would be the point of altering various vehicle to become new ones if they all have the same stats no mater how big of small they were.?
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I think taking a motorcycle and turning it into a blimp is pushing the boundaries of what the rules are meant to do. Seems like other people feel the same way, but that's what RAW does sometimes.
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I'm pretty sure Kontact means "jet-powered vectored thrust", not merely "any old kind of thrust which can be directed".
-k
The problem is when you add bigger engines and more fuel to the vehicle, you increase it's weight. When you increase it's weight you increase the size of "bag" required to lift he vehicle. This then increase the required power to manuever the ship thereby achieving diminishing returns.
As for RAW rules I can sit down and make any number of vehicles by RAW rules that break all rational mechanics. You realize that the Ferret drone, the size of a mouse, has 8 slots. You can but a lot of stuff in 8 slots that you could never really fit into something that size. That doesnt matter by RAW, I can have a ferret drone with a valkyrie module but it sure as hell doesnt make any sense
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And if you explain physics to a T-bird (you know, the giant hunk of aerodynamically unsound armor covered in rocket jets) it will just fall out of the sky.
Meanwhile, in SR, it goes at near-supersonic speed.
BTW, the ferret is a minidrone, and can't take standard mods, like the Valkyrie Module. So.. crisis averted?
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It talks specifically under the ferret about adding weapons with modifications So while in one place it says I can add weapon mounts in another it says I cant. Rules and text contradicts itself with the Ferret
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I think taking a motorcycle and turning it into a blimp is pushing the boundaries of what the rules are meant to do. Seems like other people feel the same way, but that's what RAW does sometimes.
Ask your self what is a motercycle/ It is a engin or power plant that spins wheels that pushes the whole thing forward and directed by the front wheel simple as pie.
So what does an LTA need from a motercycle as it is a flying vehicle? Hint it is the only thing they share in common! a power plant! wich doesn't work as well pushing a big bag of gas as well as it did pushing a small bike.
So it spins poperlers instead of wheels no big deal.
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Which has absolutely nothing to do with a motorcycle. You could take a dumpster and do the same thing. It's silly. RAW I guess, but that's no protection from being silly.
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Because it no longer is a Motercycle when your done with it thats the wonder of templates. and dumpsters you silliy have no moters :P
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Luckily as a former motorcycle, the heat signature is through the roof and it will be easy for every nut with a SAM to shoot ya down if it came to dealing with this vehicle :)
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They would have to be a nut to spend 750 too 1,000 plus to randomly shoot down one of a dozen aircraft in an area just for giggles.
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They would have to be a nut to spend 750 too 1,000 plus to randomly shoot down one of a dozen aircraft in an area just for giggles.
Well, that depends on the situation, now doesn't it?
If you're flying over Aztechnology airspace and they send an air control emergency notice - that is, "All aircraft in local airspace: identify yourself and allow ground control rigging access, or be shot down," what're you gonna do? Give'm control, or risk being shot down?
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Or they can do a visual inspection.
Hey Bob.
Yea.
Do we have any motorcycles with ballons attached to make them float?
Drek no.
That's the one to shoot down.
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They would have to be a nut to spend 750 too 1,000 plus to randomly shoot down one of a dozen aircraft in an area just for giggles.
Well, that depends on the situation, now doesn't it?
If you're flying over Aztechnology airspace and they send an air control emergency notice - that is, "All aircraft in local airspace: identify yourself and allow ground control rigging access, or be shot down," what're you gonna do? Give'm control, or risk being shot down?
As there are Maps of such air space combined with autopilot to avoid such blunders that is an unlikly situation.
Or they can do a visual inspection.
Hey Bob.
Yea.
Do we have any motorcycles with ballons attached to make them float?
Drek no.
That's the one to shoot down.
Haahaa yah because Motercycle wheels are so important for proper flight ::)
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They would have to be a nut to spend 750 too 1,000 plus to randomly shoot down one of a dozen aircraft in an area just for giggles.
Well, that depends on the situation, now doesn't it?
If you're flying over Aztechnology airspace and they send an air control emergency notice - that is, "All aircraft in local airspace: identify yourself and allow ground control rigging access, or be shot down," what're you gonna do? Give'm control, or risk being shot down?
As there are Maps of such air space combined with autopilot to avoid such blunders that is an unlikly situation.
Well, yes there are. But if someone's thinking of shooting you it's because you did a run, probably into someone's airspace. And if we're talking about this at all we're talking about you involving your flying motorcycle.
If it's not contested airspace you don't need to have all that stealthy stuff. If you need that stealthy stuff then it's contested airspace.
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With the range of the gun on board and the Hemdol missles in the drone wrack I don't need to have the tower enter restricted airspace at all. Same for the Motercycle ::) what the point of have a rifle that can shoot over a mile if you don't use it at range?
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Barskor,
Have you noticed that all your arguments are "I play smart and the bad guy plays stupid?"
Your runners are in the corp territory. How deep? Well, if you're thinking they'll need a vehicle to get out they're not on the border. So your choices are stay WAY outside my airspace and use your heimdalls, or come inside my airspace and use your rifle.
If you're in my airspace and my guys start taking overhead fire, I WILL institute air control.
If you're outside my airspace, your drones get tracked. I now have a very narrow window in which to look. Your protection is not perfect. You're a balloon with a motorcycle underneath - with a lot of stealth and moving faster than any other balloon in the sky.
I keep saying this about your designs. They're distinctive.
One of the rules of the battlefield is shoot the different thing first. I tend to carry that as a general principle. If it's different but here it's important and killing it matters.
You are obvious. You are distinctive. I might shoot you down on the principle of "most likely target" and pay the fines in court. Or I might send my air control vehicles up to take a real hard look at the target airspace to see what's there, and shoot you if you fire a second burst.
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Let me be plainer about this.
You asked who'd shoot down a bunch of aircraft on the chance of getting the right one? Bad question. I see ten aircraft. Nine are normal, everyday, standard craft -- helicopters, the LTA bus for executive commuters, maybe a regional commuter fixed wing.
And then there's that one which is trying to hide. It's turned off the IFF and transponder, it's masking its signal, it's stealthed, and even though ti's a balloon it's moving as fast as some helicopters.
I don't have ten targets. I have one. If you go down and I still take fire, well, I goofed. I'll pay the court fine. (or rather my company will, and "the individual who made that mistake was lost in the firefight, your honor.")
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And you tend to play bad guys as omnicent or all knowing And then there's that one which is trying to hide. It's turned off the IFF and transponder, it's masking its signal, it's stealthed, and even though ti's a balloon it's moving as fast as some helicopters. Dam they cracked all that how fast seconds or minuets? And why would I need to redline the engins all the time?
and if my team is miles into corp teritory holy drek sounds like a major run and if i have to risk a noneliving not me asset i'll lite the fuse myself.
I like distictive and I like to hide it (in plane sight or Cammoed) when running a risk. Allways taking just off the shelf running gear is boring safer vs tracking mayby there are options in the books for a reasionthey are not all traps for newbies.
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Nobody is saying it's wrong per se, just that it's very much a unique table style, like pink mohawk squared.
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So style if it has substance and is effective at a/many tasks why not ?
If the Coprs use it to track me means that they can identife the jobs i have done As long as they can't put my face or other id to me they can keep score all they like.
Any how people who push sota are valuable to the mega's I might be dead or stuck with a crainial bomb and tracking device Npc village here we come. or self extraction run!
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I can't really make out what you are saying with your ..typing style.
I'm saying don't expect that kind of 'style' work work at most tables.
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And you tend to play bad guys as omnicent or all knowing And then there's that one which is trying to hide. It's turned off the IFF and transponder, it's masking its signal, it's stealthed, and even though ti's a balloon it's moving as fast as some helicopters. Dam they cracked all that how fast seconds or minuets? And why would I need to redline the engins all the time?
and if my team is miles into corp teritory holy drek sounds like a major run and if i have to risk a noneliving not me asset i'll lite the fuse myself.
I like distictive and I like to hide it (in plane sight or Cammoed) when running a risk. Allways taking just off the shelf running gear is boring safer vs tracking mayby there are options in the books for a reasionthey are not all traps for newbies.
heh - if they were omniscient they'd blow you out of the sky before you got to shoot.
Tell you what. run the numbers for the other aircraft in the air with you and ground control - the little drone/sensor package that tries to run its little airfield - and the air watchers who are watching for air strikes on their facilities. Most of them will be R3, some will be R4. They're using radar. And with the exception of the security forces they'll be running them pretty much full time.
What you'll find is they're tossing 3 to 5 dice to spot your large object with threshold 1. They'll have that dice pool because chameleon coating doesn't matter to radar, and neither does the night. The only thing you get is distance, and radar goes a heck of a lot further than your heimdalls.
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Indeed it should be build better
Well go big or go home as they say.
Thundercloud Contrail racing bike 10 slots page 108 AR 5,000
Lighter than Air 1 slot 2.400
Improved sensor Array1 slot 1,000
Chameleon Coating 1 slots 6,000
Signature Masking 6 6 slots 12,000
Weapon Mount normal sized fixed flexability external visability 1 slot 1,500
Turbo Charger rating 4 4 slots X2 cost 14,800
Handling -1 Acelleration 30/60 Speed 90 Piolt 4 Body 6 Armor 4 Sensors 6
The GTS Tower Arsenal book pages 121/122
Modified Chameleon Coating 1 Improved Sensors1
Signature Masking 6 6 slots cost x2 24,000
Handling 0 Acceleration 10/30 Speed 120 Pilot 3 Body 4 Armor 2 Sensor 3
Comes with Wepons mount external flexable remote controlled and so you allways can get a signal through a Retransmiter signal 6
And Multi launch drone rack.
Rename it Goad
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Neither of those can be built.
You're putting 14 slots on a 10 slot bike.
You're putting 12 slots on a drone that has 4 slots.
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Arsenal page 129 Overmodifcation simple remove all metal frame work some engine components and replace with ceramic and plasteel with a big dash of Carbon fiber it cost a drek load but it should survive a while longer in the hostlie world. and i'll fix the Tower
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I'm still wondering where the "shadow" part of "shadowrun" went.
-k
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Yaknow, it dawns on my I've been dinging on you without showing the other side. Let me give you the rough, and if you want detail say so and I'll do that too.
I'm pretty convinced that if it flies and it shoots it dies. so rather than one big expensive package, I take a bunch of cheaper packages.
I stick an eye in the sky. It's a renraku stormcloud with extra sensors, a satcomm link, and two small drone racks with Heimdalls in them. No cloak, no signature masking. It'll stay under 7,000¥ excluding the Heimdalls. Its main job is to let me see the field and otherwise just be a little black rain cloud (pay no attention to me). For shooting it's my free safety - the last gun I pull out of my sleeve.
For my main shooters, I use two different mods of a C-D Dalmation. Mod one is the cheaper one: two small drone racks, each with a heimdall minidrone. That's 4200 (excluding the heimdalls). The dalmation doesn't have to see anything in this case, it just has to keep the heimdalls ready.
Mod two is a more traditional shooter. I stick a fixed flexible mount on it, add some shooting type sensors (smartgun stuff mostly), and put an LMG with external smartgun in the mount. I know I can get more range with the sniper rifle or sporting rifle, but I'm just too enamored of the full burst capabilities. Oh, no real increase to ammo. Remember I figure this bird is good for one fight. If it survives, great.
Both my dalmation mods fly low altitude - not quite nap of the earth - only popping up to shoot. They remain unnoticed by being out of sight.
The three of them together, even with heimdalls, are less than the tower.
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Now this said, I do have my own flights of fancy which have their own problems. since I'm sharing, here's this one.
I take a dalmation again. It gets a rigger pod. It gets gecko pads (note: large vehicle with gecko pads is GM discussion issue). It gets a chameleon coating. And it gets a satcomm link.
It is my escape pod. I can have it land next to a window on the side of a building. It can land on the roof or on a balcony. I can get in and fly away -- the door; the ground and second floors are not my only ways out. I'm willing to let the GM say it's burdened and so has a 20% decrease in speed and acceleration -- I'd take 50% if I had to for a guaranteed back door of my own. Get me away from the building and to the ground where I can get in the evac vehicle. (If it flies and gets noticed, it dies. I think they'll notice me using my back door.)
So you're not the only one. I'm not boggling at the builds themselves. It's just when I see them i think of them as big "Here I Am" signs that by their sheer design negate all the effort you went to putting in stealth.
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Looks good, I like the high rise escape pod. Apperently i give off the impression that just because i have an asset deploied that i have to shoot it off to have fun in the game i would rather the run go as planed in and out quietly but i like stacking the deck for when it doesn't go right.
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I'm pretty convinced that if it flies and it shoots it dies.
I assume you apply this to everything then?
Because, get this, you can spot cars and people using radar too. The rules don't differentiate.
Besides, I can build you a rigger who gets as many infiltration dice with his fliers as any ninja.
So, the rules don't support your argument, even if logic might.
What you're talking about here, mechanically, is a +2 bonus on visual perception checks because the "target sticks out in some way."
That is the only thing that the game and its setting will support regarding wacky flying bycycle.
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I'm pretty convinced that if it flies and it shoots it dies.
I assume you apply this to everything then?
Because, get this, you can spot cars and people using radar too. The rules don't differentiate.
Besides, I can build you a rigger who gets as many infiltration dice with his fliers as any ninja.
So, the rules don't support your argument, even if logic might.
What you're talking about here, mechanically, is a +2 bonus on visual perception checks because the "target sticks out in some way."
That is the only thing that the game and its setting will support regarding wacky flying bycycle.
No, it's not the only thing.
Radar does not suffer Visibility modifiers, but may suffer dice pool modifiers when used to detect objects in cluttered terrain like urban settings or heavy foliage, due to the “noise” generated by so many reflected radio waves.
Once the shooting starts there's cover on the ground. There's no cover in the sky.
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Once the shooting starts there's cover on the ground. There's no cover in the sky.
The sky starts at the soles of your shoes. Hide behind buildings, trees, natural land formations. There's all sorts of things.
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I'm still wondering where the "shadow" part of "shadowrun" went.
Well, it sort of doesn't exist for Barskor. I sort of wonder if he was one of the guys at my late-night table at Dragon-Con, who said something to the effect of 'It's Shadowrun, you're supposed to get into gunfights'. My side of the table's take was 'It's shadowrun, the only gunfight you should willingly walk into is one where you're holding all the cards.'
Barskor, I will concede that I am not fully conversant with every nook and cranny of the SR4 vehicle rules. The thing of it is, though, is that if your flying gizmos are up there, or any of your other exotic machines, in order for them to stay concealed and out of the eye of the guards (who are, after all, being paid to be suspicious of poor ol' regular schmoes they've seen every day for the last seven months, much less 'something that popped up on our sensors' or 'gosh, that's a weird-looking X') you have to be rigging them constantly. Which means you are/will be, well -- stuck in the van. Unless, of course, you don't mind if your neato vehicle gets totally creamed.
I honestly have no problem with people having a Distinctive Style in some way. I just always get the idea that you honestly think that your wacky vehicles are going to be superior in sneaking up and blowing the crap out of the opposition, when in game reality ... probably not. My opinion; YMMV.
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I run quiet it when i get tripped up and caught were loud comes in just eough to get back out all you have seen is my planed vehicles for when things go wrong.
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The problem we seem to be having, though, is that all your planed (planned?) vehicles require you to be running the damn things so long as they're close enough to even try to do something for you. Which means that not only are they distinctive and blatant, they're counterproductive, because you say you don't use them until you're blown ... and having them around means you're blown...
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The cats i'll garant you there more down time toys. the walker car HEHE won;t even try to chang your minds on. But stealthmobilise totaly fit in as just another vehical till you chang up colors in font of some one. The zepplins are fast off the starting block so what thier are dozzens of the things around selling junk to the masses moving at diffent speeds.
Post what you drve and fight with so others might learn something.
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and having them around means you're blown...
+2 dice on an enemy perception test is "blown" in your game?
This isn't a case of making up penalties for something that isn't covered in the rules.
There are rules for this, and you're ignoring the rules in order to support your knee-jerk reaction to how other people play.
Put plainly, you can disagree with the rules, but if you're going to berate someone else for playing by the rules, it's not a good look. If homie was looking for someone to make up penalties so they could shoot down his ideas, then you'd be doing fine. As it is, he's sharing his ideas, which conform more or less to the rules of the game as it's played, and you're going out of your way to tell him he's dumb and he plays the game wrong. I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just trying to let you know that you're not helping.
If you decide that, at your table, it's a good idea to give customized vehicles the equivalent of the Distinctive Style negative quality, that's not a bad call. As it is, that rule does not exist, and OP is not asking for you to make up rules to fix some deficiency.
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+2 dice on an enemy perception test is "blown" in your game?
&c.
Er, no. I'm sorry if I'm sending the wrong impression; I'll admit I'm not spankingly up-to-date on the vehicular sensors, evasion, and stealth rules. What I am seeing, however, again and again, is precisely what Kirk said here:
Barskor,
Have you noticed that all your arguments are "I play smart and the bad guy plays stupid?"
Your runners are in the corp territory. How deep? Well, if you're thinking they'll need a vehicle to get out they're not on the border. So your choices are stay WAY outside my airspace and use your heimdalls, or come inside my airspace and use your rifle.
If you're in my airspace and my guys start taking overhead fire, I WILL institute air control.
If you're outside my airspace, your drones get tracked. I now have a very narrow window in which to look. Your protection is not perfect. You're a balloon with a motorcycle underneath - with a lot of stealth and moving faster than any other balloon in the sky.
I keep saying this about your designs. They're distinctive.
One of the rules of the battlefield is shoot the different thing first. I tend to carry that as a general principle. If it's different but here it's important and killing it matters.
You are obvious. You are distinctive. I might shoot you down on the principle of "most likely target" and pay the fines in court. Or I might send my air control vehicles up to take a real hard look at the target airspace to see what's there, and shoot you if you fire a second burst.
Is it a matter of the table? Partially, yes, but it's also a matter of how searches are performed. Is it a matter of how
Paraphrasing the rules, and do correct me if I'm wrong, someone trying to spot a vehicle uses a basic Perception test -- Intuition + Perception by eye/ear, Sensor + Perception via vehicle, with drones using Sensor + Clearsight. If it's a vehicular target trying to sneak through, the pilot of a vehicle infiltrates using either (if jumped-in) Infiltration (Vehicle specialization, with a max of the pilot's Vehicle skill) + Reaction +/- the vehicle's Handling; if only remote-controlled, the Command program replaces Reaction. If the pilot is paying attention to other stuff (like sneaking through a corporate facility and trying not to be found) then the vehicle's Pilot (i.e. the GM) gets to toss Pilot + Covert Ops (a vehicular autosoft). For the rigger in control, is pretty good, because the pilot automatically starts with a bonus. Add in all the pricey dodges (ruthenium polymers, no-see-me electronics) and you get something that is admittedly tough to spot via eye or sensors.
Here's the problem, though, and this problem is precisely what I'm talking about in regards to Barskor's vehicular designs, action plans, and scenario suggestions:
In order to remain hidden via those sensors and eyeballs,
the vehicle and its pilot are going to have to make periodic Infiltration tests.
The GM decides when this is done; once a turn during an active alert, perhaps, once a minute during passive alerts, perhaps once every 5 or 15 or 30 minutes -- even an hour or more, in less patrolled/scanned areas!! -- during normal duties. If the rigger is not running the vehicle at the time and paying close attention to what's going on, the vehicle doesn't get to use the rigger's skills, and instead has to rely on its own programmed skills. To quote SR4a when talking about Perception -- which by implication includes the opposition's Perception:
For tactical reasons, the gamemaster should make this test secretly on behalf of the character, so that the player is unaware of exactly how well her character succeeded or failed. In fact, it may be advisable in certain cases to not let the player(s) know that a Perception Test is being made, in order to avoid raising their suspicions.
Now, one can debate whether or not the threshold should be high or low; we are typically talking about motorcycle-sized vehicles or larger, so a threshhold of 0 is really not all that out of probability. Because we're talking about a vehicle, however, we get into the terrain type. If it's a blimpy motorcycle out in the wide blue yonder, highways, flat grassy plains, no modifier. I think that most of the scenarios put him into Restricted terrain -- side streets, light woods, rocky mountain slopes. Just outside a corporate zero-zone (Open terrain) should reasonably be considered Light, though, because lines of sight and fire even beyond the double fence are going to be cleared.
But let's be gracious, and say Restricted: +2 Threshold modifier, for a total of 2. There's stuff to hide behind, clumps of bushes or trees, an outcropping of rock or the concrete-and-rebar side of a half-wrecked building, maybe another building or a high-EM-radiant zone, such as power lines. So security at the building is going to need to net 2 hits to spot the thing.
Barskor appears to presume that with all the gadgetry on his vehicles, security ain't never gonna get 2 net hits; he presumes he is smart, and security is dumb. If this is true, then either the GM is a pushover, or else the runs being taken are all milk runs, and he's taking his vehicles, which try very hard to be stealthy and sneakery, up against people and sensors who really don't stand an ice-cube's chance in hell.
Going up against competent security guards, though, and a competent security manager, and a competent security design engineer, this is considerably less likely. They are going to be performing erratic sweeps and patrols; they are going to be 'looking for the strange'. They will not only get 'perceiver is actively looking/listening for suspicious things' with its +3, but if the GM has made the call about exotic vehicles getting that +2 for being a Distinctive Thing, they'll also get that additional 1-in-2 chance of finding the drone/vehicle -- just because they are simply doing their jobs. In fact, just for doing their jobs decently they negate a big chunk of any penalties applied against them.
Are they going to find the shadowrunner, with his 5 Agility and 4 Infiltration and ruthenium polymer suit, and who is paying attention to the guy walking down the hall past his position? No, probably not, 'cause the runner is actively hiding from a passive/active searcher. Barskor's vehicles, on the other hand, don't seem to be able to do that sort of thing. If the vehicle doesn't have a great (expensive!) Pilot with a top-of-the-line Covert Ops autosoft, moving around and actively trying to avoid detection -- or, just as bad, doing it clumsily -- the guards are probably going to have the advantage of facing an Extended Opposed test instead of a recurring standard Opposed test -- and only need 2 net successes.
So no, these aren't penalties that aren't covered in the rules; these are rules that a GM should be putting into effect, and randomly -- secretly -- checking to see if the weird drone has been spotted lingering around and trying ever-so-hard to look like it isn't there. Nothing sticks out MORE than someone trying and failing to sneak along; they stick out like a sore thumb.
"Walk like you belong here. When you stop, hide behind whatever's available, but don't sneak while you're going where we're going; just walk."
-- Paraphrased from Dragon, Vlad Taltos talking to his messmates as they infiltrate an enemy camp.
Are there ways around this? Oh, hell, yes. Sit your exotic drone on the top of a not-too-distant high-rise apartment building, ready to come running to your defense the instant you run into trouble. Scout out your target's defensive systems immediately, and see if you can't filch a friendly IFF code. All sorts of things. But one of the easiest is not using a unique vehicle, whether that be motorcycle-blimp or mechanical tiger, that functionally serves as a Distinctive Style, because nothing says 'I don't belong here' than something that simply doesn't belong anywhere.
Kontact, I don't accuse Barskor of not building his gizmos according to the rules; I accuse him of only choosing the rules that are going to apply to him, of deciding that because he has This Great Vehicle, his opposition is going to be composed of bored idiots who not only rather watch the Seahawks game than do their patrols, but actually DO watch the game instead of doing their patrols. I'm accusing him of not applying the same stringent attention to his scenario design as he is to his vehicle modification.
He's using uniquely-modified ¥18,000 vehicles (BEFORE the ¥5000 to ¥10,000 each cost of top-end Piloting, Sensor, Gunnery, and multiple autosofts); in order to support the use of risking these expensive things, should not the value of the run be worthwhile? Should not the opposition be similarly rated? They aren't going to be omniscient by any stretch of the imagination, but they are going to be attentive -- which is something that Barskor seems to be not granting them.
So yes, having your super-stealth motorcycle-blimp with its dogbrain trying to avoid sensors and patrols means there's an increasingly good chance that the thing will be spotted. And since it's looking like it's trying to be sneaky, suspicious get raised; the site goes on Passive Alert. If -- or, in my opinion, when -- the vehicle gets spotted, then it's going to attract attention.
If, on the other hand, the superbuff GMC Bulldog from *looks on the side* Ork'n'Troll MegaPizza Delivery Company is sitting two doors down, or even just across the street, looking as innocent as the night is long, then there is a major difference. It will be spotted immediately; however, it is not going to attract attention, because it looks like it's supposed to be there.
Which is why I far prefer masquerading as an upright, uptight citizen instead of trying to fit into that ruthenium bodysuit...
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Good points but I think there's a misunderstanding right here.
the guards are probably going to have the advantage of facing an Extended Opposed test instead of a recurring standard Opposed test -- and only need 2 net successes.
While extended test have thresholds, not every threshold test is an extended test. For an extended test, you need a time interval, and perception doesn't provide that.
I've actually got a thread out there already on how infiltration, perception and the threshold are meant interact. The basic question being, does a spotter need 2 hits over threshold to spot someone creeping. (Also, more comically, is every car in the game going to plow through pedestrians if it's on autopilot [see signature table on p 171])
If you assume that it's - perception rolls to see, infiltration rolls to obscure and net hits are compared to threshold (which, in my opinion is the only way for infiltration to have a chance vs. all the cheap perception DP boosts out there,) then you've certainly got a case for not flying the wacky flag. Because if the threshold to spot a flying motorcycle is 1 for obvious and the threshold for spotting a car driving down the drive is 2 for normal, then that's the rough equivalent of another 3 dice on the spotter side in addition to the +2 for it sticking out in some way.
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the guards are probably going to have the advantage of facing an Extended Opposed test instead of a recurring standard Opposed test -- and only need 2 net successes.
While extended test have thresholds, not every threshold test is an extended test. For an extended test, you need a time interval, and perception doesn't provide that.
And not every extended test is delineated in the rules; the GM provides that. Again, good -- or even okay -- guard patrols don't look at the same thing every time; they check different areas, look at different objects, peer into different shadows. Even if they do happen to be looking at the same thing, they look at it in a different way -- or at a different angle. This, at least to my mind is an extended test, with a time interval equivalent to 'the average patrol round interval' -- i.e. one roll every time they go around, until they notice something different -- or completely fail to notice and you're gone already. If the player is intelligent, they'll take two minutes once the patrol's gone by to displace and go hide somewhere else, i.e. reset the Extended test / turn it into a standard Opposed test.
I don't know -- maybe it's just me. But even if you've got every piece of no-see-me electronics out there, eventually you'll get seen. And once you're seen, the suspiciousness rating of the opposition is going to be in direct proportion to the amount of effort the vehicle is putting out to be unseen...
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The point is to delay delay and delay till your done with your operation and get out wihill they are still in the delayed period not i can wag my bott in the open forever.
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Which means you're spending a fair amount of your time paying close attention to what your drone/vehicle is doing, not to what's going on around you. Which is another of my points.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for using anti-spotting gear -- but typically in the getaway.
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I don't know -- maybe it's just me. But even if you've got every piece of no-see-me electronics out there, eventually you'll get seen. And once you're seen, the suspiciousness rating of the opposition is going to be in direct proportion to the amount of effort the vehicle is putting out to be unseen...
If the GM decides you will eventually get seen, then you will eventually get seen. If the GM decides that he wants to penalize people for having modified vehicles then he will penalize people for having modified vehicles. If the GM decides that corporate extraterritoriality extends for miles outside of their property, then this also is true.
But, if you're going by the books and the setting as they are presented, then:
1) the overwhelming majority of published SR literature portrays security forces as lazy and disinterested.
2) perception penalties can reduce a sizable DP down to critical glitch territory or nil without too much trouble.
3) perception is only used to find things that fall outside the norm and it has mechanical rules which are defined within the system of play
4) AAA corps own small swatches of territory and if their forces act outside of that territory, it is an international incident while AA and smaller corps are limited in their responses by the laws of the nation.
This is P&P roleplaying, so making things up is totally in line with what's going on here, but the stuff you make up does not really effect other people's games.
Sorry if I'm sounding harsh. I don't mean to. It's just that the guy is trying to be clever and you're trying to be realistic.
In this game, clever gets your around a lot of problems, and realistic gets you into a lot of combats.
I don't know how much SR you've played, but I've played enough to discover that combat is boring. It is simultaneously boring and deadly, and it should be avoided whenever possible.
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But, if you're going by the books and the setting as they are presented, then:
1) the overwhelming majority of published SR literature portrays security forces as lazy and disinterested.
The overwhelming majority of published SR literature portrays security forces as being bored as hell, yes. That can do one of two things -- make you sloppy, as you have pointed out that most of the literature says, or make you sharp, as some of the literature indicates. This is, I would presume, adjudicated by the Professional Rating of the group the team is facing. Higher professional ratings will pay more attention; lower, less so of course.
Part of the issue is that the point of view of most of what we, as players, see is that of the shadowrunner. Living in Atlanta and having a spouse working for the CDC means that I get to deal regularly with sites that I'd describe as being only moderately secure -- semi-trained, professional rating 2. They check every individual passing through their gates and doors, they keep a good eye on the hikers on the trails, they send someone after a car going too far into 'their' territory. The rules support professionalism ratings, which should give a prompt for how regularly a security team does their job. Unfortunately, the Corporate Security Unit doesn't even have perception at Professional Rating 2, so yeah, if you're going up against them, then easy peasy.
Which is a point I've made.
2) perception penalties can reduce a sizable DP down to critical glitch territory or nil without too much trouble.
And perception bonuses can reduce or eliminate penalties. Not arguing on this.
3) perception is only used to find things that fall outside the norm and it has mechanical rules which are defined within the system of play
A 'thing outside the norm'. Not to offend, but we ARE talking about vehicles loitering around the front door, right? Things that cause ripples in the air, or thermographic ghosts, or flickering blips on the radar screen, right? These things are outside the norm. Shadowrunners infiltrating the place are things outside the norm. You don't need a PER roll to find the wastepaper basket or the bathroom, but you roll a PER test to see if you notice -- or do something -- about the sensor ghost / odd rumbling / weird thermo cloud / flicker in the air. Q.E.D.
4) AAA corps own small swatches of territory and if their forces act outside of that territory, it is an international incident while AA and smaller corps are limited in their responses by the laws of the nation.
Aaaand you are playing Shadowrun, right? Corporations operate outside their territories all the time, sending squads in hot pursuit, bullets flying off the property, etc. etc. etc. Taking a closer look at something that is 'lingering suspiciously' just outside the side door is a violation that they're going to commit with casual disregard.
This is P&P roleplaying, so making things up is totally in line with what's going on here, but the stuff you make up does not really effect other people's games.
Sorry if I'm sounding harsh. I don't mean to. It's just that the guy is trying to be clever and you're trying to be realistic.
In this game, clever gets your around a lot of problems, and realistic gets you into a lot of combats.
Look, Kontact. I'm not dissing 'clever'. I am all for clever. It's just that in my opinion, and apparently in the opinion of several others, Barskor is trying to be clever at the wrong time, with the wrong things, and when you do that -- well, as you so elegantly pointed out, it gets you into a lot of combats.
Yes, the rules are there, and they support what you're saying. They also support what I'm saying -- if you listen to what I'm saying.
- Driving around in your ghosted pimpmobile, or having a spooktacular gizmo in the air with a HUUUGE weapon to support you should things go bad is great. It'll work fantastic against thugs, gangers, and couldn't see their hands in front of their faces low-level security guards. If that's what you're running against, fine.
- Doing this is not going to work against reasonably competent security. You reach a certain level, and suddenly instead of being a ghost, you're spotted.
- If you are spotted, the guard's reactions are going to be directly related to how hard you were trying to not be seen. If you are driving your ghosted pimpmobile, or the spooktacular sniper in the sky is the one being suddenly eyeballed, security will have an immediate negative reaction -- because nobody with an IQ over 75 is going to say, 'hey, look, something near my stuff that's trying really hard to not be seen. I think I'll let it go about its business!!' Whether it's on your property, off it, in your airspace or out, you are going to take a Good Hard Look at it, and Keep Watch. And, incidentally, you're going to bump up your alert status by one.
- If the GM is being realistic -- and God help you if he is -- then the rent-a-cops at the warehouse complex you're breaking into are going to up their security status because the high-tech A-rated corp down the way has just gone to an alert status because they saw your gear.
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. Hell, I'm not disagreeing with what Barskor is building. Some of it's cool, most of it I'd never use. My main issue is how he uses what he builds.
I don't know how much SR you've played, but I've played enough to discover that combat is boring. It is simultaneously boring and deadly, and it should be avoided whenever possible.
Late '89, early '90 -- late '89 I think. Up until 2000, games at least 5 hours long (and usually 8-10) for 3-5 nights a week. Afterwards, alas, not nearly that much -- but I can safely say I've passed my 20,000 hour mark. (Yes, I've spent more than two and a quarter years of my life playing Shadowrun; that doesn't count the NON-gaming time, or the time online...)
And yes, I know about combat. And the matrix. And rigging. And astral quests. And, and, and. I know your arguments. Me, I avoid combat -- and that is exactly what I am saying. Unfortunately, Barksor (last I heard) believes that one should fool the sensors; you are arguing in his favor, and while yes, his and your statements are supported by the rules, they extend only to a certain level of competence from the opposition. As long as you're only stealing chickens, hijacking month-old prototypes, and kidnapping teenyboppers from the mall, that's fine. If your target is somewhat higher than that, they see you sneaking, and you get shot at.
I -- and Kirk, or so I think -- believe firmly in fooling the mind behind the sensors. Let them see your van or truck or drone, but if you get them to think that it's something innocent, they'll let it hang out for as long as you need it to.
I'm pretty certain we've reached the point of repeating arguments; I'm going to end my responses with this one. If you disagree, fine, you disagree -- your GM's problem, not mine. Well, and yours ... unless you're at my table at a convention ...
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Being clever is fine.
Going about thinking that only YOU are clever, and your opposition is not? Not so much.
-k
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I don't recall stating exactly how i would use the sniper Goad besides saying when it hits the fan i can call in fire support to me thats the end of mission because something when horribly wrong and it is just get out alive time how is that stupid on my part? Should I have mentioned it should be crusing lazy 8s through downtown towers pretending to be just another AD balloon waiting till i call it? How is that lamer than a pizzza deliver van that gos no where?