[Argent]

Back on topic (briefly):

I think the range is going to be dependent on what kind of feel you want your game to have. Some GMs like their players to scrape the bottom of the barrel while others don't mind big nuyen going down for big jobs. Either way if it is working for your group and the players are having fun, I'd say stick with what you're doing.

[Raven Runner]

Again, back to the original topic, all my GMing has been other systems, not SR, but I feel this is pretty universal. 

First, I agree with what Argent said on the whole. My additional point would be that character improvement is fun, but it's also fun to be challenged, when characters have so much gear and money that it overshadows there actual abilities that can be an issue, and if they get more experience or Karma or whatever to compensate then basically there characters are improving so fast it becomes harder to find that point where it's a challenge and you don't kill all of them. In the long run this is usually less fun.

Bottom line for me is that if I screw up and don't give them enough then when I fix my mistake and give them free stuff the're happy, when I screw up and give them to much they are much less happy to see me balance that one out (that's 150 damage to your new helicopter). So I always give them less and get them used to the idea of gear being stolen and destroyed (with in reason), then put extra emphasis on there actual abilities, and then give them bonus stuff in fun ways.

Also, if the characters feel pressed for cash then they will generally try harder to get it, which makes for better role playing and all that depending on your group.

Now for a question of my own, and sorry this is so long.
In general, how fast are SR characters supposed to improve? Like what do people generally give out for Karma per 4 hour game session?
I've been having a really hard time finding a game to play and it's looking like I might have to learn to GM, so I'm trying to work all this out, Thanks for any input. And by the way if any ones knows of a Skype game or the like that could use another player let me know

Raven

[Zilfer]

Currently your lucky if you get 5 or 6. 4 karma sounds about right, though my group plays 6-8 hour sessions. <.< we start at 6 PM and don't stop until usually sometime after midnight.

[Argent]

I think on average my group gets roughly 6-8 karma per adventure with each one shot session lasting 6 hours or so. Some adventures span multiple gaming sessions and are worth a good deal more if they survive.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Missions are a moderately good guidepost for earnings in both money and karma; generally you earn 10,000¥ and 6-10 karma.  I'll admit that I was somewhat disappointed that the GM I had at DragonCon didn't differentiate between players' RPing, just gave the entire table the same amount of karma each time.  Not a terrible thing, though, since he did let me in on a full table. 

What can be helpful is to come up with 'baseline' figures for each sort of activity -- wetwork, intrusion, distraction, structure hit, etc. etc.  Come up with multipliers -- people who have better Street Cred may well get better paydays, while those with high Notoriety and/or Public Awareness may find the Johnsons being a little tight-fisted with the money.  Particularly high-risk actions, rush jobs, jobs that'll take you out of your comfort zone ('hood) or off the work list for an extended period of time, all those sorts of things could increase the cost.  I like the two parts in the movie 'Ronin' -- 'Five thousand a week, with a minimum four weeks' work.'  Then later, 'a hundred thousand' after a demonstration of a certain amount of 'lack of info', for what amounted to a hijacking/theft.

[CitizenJoe]

For a sanctioned run, i.e. a Johnson hires you, start with upkeep + expenses + cool down.  Get a surety bond to guarantee payment.  These are available to trusted people at 1% and the bond is good for a year.  A 'shadow bondsman' is going to start at 5%.  So a legitimate Johnson would be paying about 10K for a million nuyen bond, that he could fall back on if he can't afford the expenses right off the bat.  A less than legit Johnson would front 50K for the bond.  But Boohoo for him, why do you want to work for an untrustworthy Johnson in the first place?  Since the premium has already been paid, and the bond is good for a year, it is more cost effective to hire a team that you've already got a bond for.  Thus, you're looking at repeat business.  And since the Bondsman isn't going to pay out if the Johnson can't repay the debt, i.e. is dead, that creates a bit of a life insurance policy for the Johnson as a side effect.

Upkeep would be at least middle class lifestyle and probably more, given vehicle maintenance and such.  So that is probably on the order of 2K per week.  The cool down period is the time the heat will be on after the run.  This needs to be about the same 2K per week, but you don't know how long that will be.  Part of this gets subsumed into the surety bond, but part can be negotiated out of the bonus (which hasn't been discussed yet).  Obviously, injury recovery time is another hard measurement, as would incarceration. 

Expenses are highly variable.  Serious injuries can start at about 20K in medical expenses not even counting damaged cyber.  Lost vehicles add up quickly.  Missiles aren't cheep either.  Operating capital like bribes and specialty gear also falls under this category, although that can get authorization ahead of time.  It is VERY easy to rack up 100K in expenses, especially if things go bad (hint: They always go bad).

Long story short, it is in the best interest of the Johnson to get this surety bond.  He's still got to pay the expenses, but it can act as a buffer until the Run pays off on his end. 

That brings us to the actual negotiating price.  This is the bonus for accepting the risk of the run in the first place.  That bonus should start at 2/3rd upkeep and be worked down to as little at 1/3rd. 

So a typical planned out run should take like 1 month counting cool down.  That's probably 4K upkeep, 4K cool down and 2K bonus.  After rent gets paid, the runners are each up like 2K for the month.  The Johnson will have to eat on the order of 30-50K in expenses as well as the salaries.  For a 4 man team, probationary run where he's got to front the surety bond, he's looking at about 100K.  Up front cost for hiring a standard employee is borderline 30K.  So hiring 4 schlubs is going to cost 20K more and he still has to get them the gear.

Now as a baseline rule of thumb, from raw material to finished retail product, you're looking at a 7 fold increase in value.  So if the Johnson is paying out 40K (best case), he needs an expected benefit of 280K.  He will probably get 15% (salesman commission) of the difference.  So, in the typical case of 100K, with a 280K payout, he'll walk away with 27K.  So each runner netted 2K, the Johnson netted 27K, the company netted 153K from the run.

Now lets assume a frag up.  100K expenses in lost equipment, two people in the hospital for a month.  Expense total: 148K.  Bonus is shot but expenses are paid.  Runners net 0 for 6 weeks work.  Company nets 112,200, Johnson nets 19.8K

Now let's say the runners take off with the deposit and don't do the run.  1 month later they are 4K in the hole (1/2 month expenses).  Company is out 10K for surety bond and 16K for deposit on runners... -26K.  Johnson is upset because he wasted a month, but he's probably got other teams. 

Now let's do a frag up failure.  100K equipment losses, 2 people in the hospital, 10K fronted for expenses.  Company is out 8K for deposit plus 10K on expenses, plus 10K on the surety bond: -28K.  They are on the hook for another 156K for expenses and cool down time.  The Johnson can make 15% of what the company saves if the runners don't go to the surety bond.  Two assassins at 5K each to take out the guys in the hospital and then a debt settlement to the survivors for a similar amount saves the company 136K, which the Johnson nets 20.4K

So, you can see that it is in the Runners' best interest not to drive up the expenses and especially in their interest to get the job done.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Not sure I agree with that analysis.  The conclusion, generally, yes.  The breakdown, however ... not necessarily.

[CitizenJoe]

Well there is also the ganger model shadowrunner.  50K in gear, low lifestyle maintenance, self destruct at serious damage level.  Johnson will need to do most of the legwork for them and expect kind of a not so subtle run.  Expect about 250 per ganger and probably 10K in expenses.  You'll probably need to hire the whole gang or ballpark 10 members.  Maybe like 15K for the run total, their bonus is whatever they can salvage from the hit.  Probably 5K up front (2500 to the gang, 2500 for the shadowbond, probably a bookie).  If you give them too much up front, they'll just spend it on drugs and chips.  Expected value should be about 35K with 20K profit minus 1500 for the Johnson (probably a Mafia fixer).  The key to using gangers is not to have an expected outcome, merely to have them show up.

Playing a ganger game can be fun, but expect a lot of turnover in characters and shootouts.  Combat heavy games are frustrating in a PbP game because ping times approach 24-48 hours and the game stops during those pings.  This would be more suited to an in person game. 

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I still don't agree with your breakdown.  I think I'm having a problem with your 'expected benefit', as well as how much you're juggling around -- and perhaps the terms I'm seeing.

[CitizenJoe]

As a rule of thumb in the crafting world, when you go from raw material to finished product, you can expect a 7 fold increase.  That doesn't necessarily have to translate into the shadows, but lacking any other rule of thumb, I don't see why it can't. 

The expected value number is there to provide a logical frame of reference for runs, beyond the meta part of 'We want to have fun tonight, give us a run.'  A Johnson isn't going to pay 10K each to runners to knock over a Stuffershack.  So, at what point is such a run justified?  A 6 man team 10K each, half up front, half if successful, plus 50K bonus which gets applied to expenses is going to cost 80K up front so the Johnson needs to be looking at a bit over half a million value for the run. 

Now looking at things from the company's point of view and applying some wholesale/retail models... 
Retail is usually at least 40% over wholesale.  The sales rep gets 15% of wholesale.  Distributor pricing (repeat business with standing orders) is about 75% of wholesale.  Assume your deposit is X.  Complete the mission and you get X more.  Johnson offers a bonus of X, but will deduct expenses from that.  Clean run with no excessive expenses costs the company 3X, which represents the distributor pricing.  "You guys did good, we'll hire you again."  But lets say you've got excessive expenses and they run 2X.  Cost to the company is 4X or 100% of wholesale.  They're still ok with it, but there's no incentive not to go with any other group.  Now if things go really bad, and expenses are double the salary, you jump up to 6X, 50% over wholesale.  The company would be like 'Screw that, we're not making anything off the deal.  We'll pay 4X but that's it!'  The group now has to dump its pay (2X) plus the expenses paid (2X) in order to cover expenses.  Group is out time and lifestyle for that time, plus company is unlikely to hire them again.  The company takes 2.5X as its profits and Johnson (sales rep) gets (.5X)

Now applying that to the micro scale as a runner.  Lets say you're offered 10K flat, no expenses.  How much are you willing to invest in the run?  Figure 1/7th for consumables (ammo, bribes, etc.).  Figure 2/7 for lifestyle/upkeep.  Figure 1/7 for personal injury/risked equipment.  Then 1/14th for your fixer.  That's a budget of 1430 for consumables, 700-750 for your fixer and 2860 for lifestyle/upkeep.  Assuming 6K per month upkeep, that leaves you 14 days to plan/execute/get clear of the run.  That pretty much spends your 50% deposit.  You should reasonably expect to lose (i.e. don't risk more than) 1430 in gear/injuries.  Which leaves you with about 3500 as 'profit'  Note that anything more than a moderate injury is going to wipe that out.  Likewise, losing a drone or vehicle, or even a good gun, will wipe out profits instantly.  So what kind of run can you do with a budget of 1400 expendable and another 1400 in gear?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I suppose I understand what you're saying, but a) I don't agree with your proposition, and b) I definitely wonder what sort of game you've been playing when you can actually get the Johnson to agree to cover your expenses.

I also wonder what game you're playing when your corporation is expecting only a sevenfold increase in expenditure.  Remember that if the cops can successfully trace this back -- and there isn't a Fixer alive who wouldn't give up the next link in the chain if it was him or the ultimate Johnson -- the Johnson is looking at jail time at least, possibly death, corporate-applied or otherwise -- what, you didn't think Evo had the death penalty?  They call it 'test subject assignment'.  As well, if it gets traced back that far, the corporation who funded the operation will have to pay for everything.  Every death, every dinged car, every shattered window, every busted fire hydrant or crashed-through fence.  Everything.  (Hell, proving that another run was the fault of Y manager of X corporation, and that it was at the corporation's direction, would be a serious set of runs in and of itself.)

Thus, what your breakdown presumes is that:

• The Johnson will pay for your expenses -- possible if you're going abroad, enormously unlikely if you're working in-town.
• The 'markup' that a corporation is looking for is a measly x7 of expended assets.

Simply put, I can't imagine either of these things being true.  The knowledge that prison time and reparations are minimums is going to ensure that a corporation is going to source shadowruns only for much bigger fish.  It isn't the chance to sell seven (or seventy, if the amount they're making on a sale is only a paltry 1k) new cars they're looking for; it's the chance to get the contract to supply the government with seven thousand new cars.  Or seventy thousand; something significant.  Every shadowrun with its roots in a corporate entity rated A or above is going to be Big Fish.  You might only be burning out one office after stealing the specs on a guidance chip, but the loss of those specifications and that office's backups means that GM is not going to be able to put their most recent K-Car up for the contract bidding in Quebec, the UCAS, the CAS, CalFree ... get the picture?  You're talking a loss of millions, even billions, and Ford is very pleased with you.

And if you messed up, well, then they only spent 30,000 on the chance to clinch the contract, which they're still in the running for.  And there's other actions that can be taken to delay GM.

If you take the layout cash and run, well, Ford has friends, and they'll make sure you pay anyhow.  An extra 30k in the right hands, plus another 5k to spread the word of your demise and why, will make sure that other runners don't take the money and not even attempt the job.

And I still can't imagine a Johnson covering anything but travel expenses.  And maybe, maybe a bit of bribe money.  And that's only if you're playing at a level way, way above even 'competent runner'; that's doing black ops for the CIA, Mossad, or Aegis Cognito.

[CitizenJoe]

Actually, I thought expenses were pretty standard, but you have to ask for it at the negotiation.  The Johnson can of course put limits on expenses.  But if he slaps down a flat fee, you the runner as a businessman needs to assess what you're willing to risk for that fee.  For added humor, you want the guy making that assessment to be a troll with a neon mohawk who busts out the horn rimmed glasses and a notepad to do the figuring.

From a meta standpoint.  If your players are all "LOL! Lets go shoot someone in the face!"  Then sure, just make up some sort of fee arbitrarily, throw some dice at it and move on with the action.  The players don't actually get to keep the money, they're there for the game.  But if one (or all) of them does the accounting, figuring out expenses and risk analysis, you, as the GM should respect that. They are engaging the game and presumably having fun with that part of it. Don't take that away from them.

As a player, think about your character and the game.  Is this a one off?  If so, the character is dead as far as you're concerned once the session is over.  Safeties off, full auto, you don't get to keep any of it anyway.  If you are in it for the character building long term, you need to balance your risks and expenses.  If you're not into that as a player, but someone else is, kick them back some money (or RL pizza) to do it for you.  Good managers are worth their fees. Bad managers?  Let's just say its good to have Tanamous contacts.

[Wakshaani]

For me, the rule of thumb is that the GM should shell out enough that the runners, if efficient, should be able to make a monthly upkeep cost fitting for the game teh GM wants to run. If he wants the group to be a bunch of street scum that have the system making sure that they stay down, they should bring in enough a month to have a Low lifestyle and probably run on a weekly basis. In contrast, a high-rolling best of the best game runs with huge payoffs as teh runners are expected to lay low for a few months after a job.

"Johnson screws us!" or "Phyrric victory" where the cost outlays were larger than the intake should happen rarely (Maybe 10% of the time, a tad more if the group is bad at budgeting), which should be matched by windfalls an equal number of times (Windfalls should pay out about triple the usual rate. This covers that "You got squat" runs, and gives a free month of cash for those who need the tech upgrades.Giving these windfalls *in* gear cuts out the middleman and shouldn't be overlooked.

Note that jobs pay for the work to be done, not on a per-head basis. Johnson is handing over *one* payment, it's up to the team to decide how they want to split it up. Pay-per-head (I'll give you each ten grand for a job well done) results in a bunch of ringers being brought in and Johnson's budget being shot up. And maybe Johnson as well!

[CitizenJoe]

All I can say is that you don't want me in a game where the GM is trying to keep me down.  I will host 'fund raisers' and it won't be pretty. 

That being said, I think that it is critically important that both the GM and the players are on the same page about the type of runners they are. 
If you're running low lifestyle street gangers, you can forget about having a decker or rigger.  You might get away with a shaman, but hermetics are pretty much out.  Johnson needs to be pretty clear about what he wants done and provide the legwork, because at those rates, the runners aren't paid to think.

If you want more of the planning/legwork sort of mission, that means more equipment and more pay.

You're right about the per head business.  But that does come into play if you can split the party.  If you're hiring the team though, you're hiring the whole team. 

If you're running it like a business, and the one lump sum contract thing is a business model, then you need to base your pricing on the job.  Get the parameters and work up a bid.  Get a small consultation fee and the parameters of the mission.  Work up your costs, expenses, etc and write up a bid.  I'd come up with 4 bids.  The first is the 'decline the offer'.  In this case, you're asking for a small amount of money to cover your consultation fee where you assess the run for the Johnson but you don't actually do the run.  If your actual bids were too much, the Johnson can take those numbers back to HQ and let them know that the job simply isn't feasible.  Next you present the Johnson with the bare bones bid.  Minimal results but also minimum price.  This bid should require the Johnson to pay expenses and supply gear.   Again, the small fee paid for the 'Decline the offer' bid covers your professional assessment as to what gear is needed.  Next, offer up the Gold plan.  This should be about double the basic, but you supply your gear.  Johnson still has to reimburse expenses.  Finally offer up the Platinum plan.  This runs about 10 times the gold plan but the runners cover all the expenses incurred. 

Runners should be very wary of any Johnson that snaps up Platinum plans.  It has been shown that even at a microscopic level, if someone is presented a $10 bottle of wine and a $20 bottle, they will invariably go for the $10 bottle.  If they are presented a $10 bottle, a $20 bottle and a $100 bottle, they will opt for the middle one.

As a runner (or any business man) you'll want to plan your operations around that middle bottle, but always be ready to replace that high end bottle, lest everyone opts for the cheapest.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I guess you and your GM -- or you, if you ARE the GM -- run/s things significantly differently than how it's presented.  Typically, you don't bring your four offers to the table; the Johnson (or the fixer) has a price point, the job, a certain amount of information (the lack of which becomes a negotiating point in your favor), and a time frame.  You receive these four points, decide whether or not the equation below is in or near your favor, then negotiate for a higher price point if it is.  If it isn't, and likely isn't going to be so even if you negotiate a higher payday, then you walk.

( Job + Info ) / Time = Payment

Rarely -- very rarely -- are you going to be able to 'get the parameters of the mission' without saying yes.  "Hi, I want you to break into Ludivenko's and dump this toxic sludge into their next batch of Aqua Goo."  'Let me figure out what it's going to take and get back to you in, say, a couple of hours.'  "Let you walk with knowledge of my highly illegal desires and attempt to pay you to do it?  Oh, sure.  Say there, officer, I'm planning on walking over there and shooting that guy in the head, okay?"  'Sure, sir, go to it!!'

This isn't a contract to build a house or an office building.  This isn't even (usually) a contract to deliver something.  This is a contract to commit a crime -- sometimes dangerous, frequently heinous, and almost always, well, illegal.  Hell, you just knowing becomes complicity, and often makes you an accessory to the crime -- because, see, in knowing about it, you (as a good non-citizen) should report it.  Which you don't.  This, of course, is illegal.  You really think the Johnson's going to let you walk after giving you details?

...

Returning from searching, well, I can't find it, but basically in one of Steven Brust's Cycle books (Vlad Taltos), Vlad -- a minor crime boss and hitman -- is contacted for a job.  He knows that if he asks for specifics -- the guy's name -- he's agreed to do it.  SR should, at least in my never-so-humble opinion, be played very much similarly.  If you ask for specifics more detailed than 'we want you to break into an office building, steal a chip, and replace it with our own' -- or whatever is similar for the run you're being offered -- then you're saying 'okay, we'll do it, let's talk price'.  And remember, the Johnson is the guy with the money, and he's the one laying down the offer.

If he gives you any information more than that, your Johnson is a bloody idiot.  And if he agrees to cover all your expenses, he's gonna get canned the very next day.  'Expenses' is what the first payment is about.