[zekim]

I provided you with examples of things a security guard, who typically only has one pass, could accomplish in a single pass by the standard rules. By your rules, they can accomplish none of them, including basic shit like calling for backup. By your rules, it is very easy for a group of shadowrunners to take out the security team before they mount any response at all, since they only have one pass and your players will have 2 to 4.

Nothing in my rules prevents guards from calling for backup.  They just can't run several meters, jump behind a desk and call for backup in one IP.

Everyone acts on pass 1, and the security team has half as many actions as they should and accomplish very little more than moving into position and maybe taking cover. Then your team proceeds to steam roll them over the next three passes, and they haven't fired a shot or called for backup.

Well, they only act on pass 1 if they are not surprised and are suffering that -10 to initiative.  They also only get to act on pass 1 if they are still alive.  Given in your example that the SR team has 2 to 4 passes, it also means that they rolled a much higher initiative than the security team and will be going first.

This is what I mean by being balanced around the idea that you can move at will, because you need to do a lot in one pass if your enemy has more passes than you, and the players almost always have the IP advantage over the enemy unless you start handwaving that every rent-a-cop and street ganger is loaded with wired reflexes.

An interesting point.  Don't know if I agree with it, but something to ponder.

In addition to the examples I gave before, you've completely removed the possibility of splitting up your movement and taking any actions in-between moving or while moving.

I've played plenty of other game systems where this is the case and it has never impacted playability of the game.

Other things you might want to be able to do while moving: reload your weapon, shoot something, Use any skill (complex action to do so), take a moment to examine the battlefield (simple action to Observe in Detail), so on and so forth.

Nothing preventing it.  Players simply don't move as far.

Let's go back to the skill issue. All skill tests are complex actions, so if your players want to pick a lock, or hack a security system, or make a Leadership roll, or try to Intimidate the enemy, or ANYTHING other than point and shoot, they have to waste a turn getting into position before they can, or stand in the open like a moron to get it done.

Hey! Finally, something good to ponder!  Some of those actions (like lock picking), I don't have a problem with the player needing to waste an IP moving into position.  I'll have to examine some of other skills, like Leadership to see if making it a simple action is appropriate.

You've also made it literally impossible to perform most feats of acrobatics, since its no longer possible to move and use Gymnastics on the same pass.

I partially disagree.  Climbing doesn't require character to spend a walk action; neither does repelling.  Jumping is a tricky one.  Technically all a character has to do is spend a free action to Run and then a Complex action to Jump.  Will ponder this one later.

You want to bring video into this? Okay.

My point with the videos is that SR combat rounds are already too short.  Things take longer in the real world. The notion that the average security guard can run 12 meters while shooting and reloading his weapon in a combat situation is silly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM

Try to do that with the standard Shadowrun rules, let alone your variation. Six shots, reload, then six shots in less than three seconds. That'd take three passes and a revolver modified to be capable of Burst Fire.

Considering that he didn't move.  I fail to see the relevance.

As for your example of a swat guy taking 1-2 seconds to reload while standing still in the quiet, here's a video of a guy doing the same thing in less than a second.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzrahUUTi8

Considering that he didn't move.  I fail to see the relevance.

I also don't see how changing the way movement works reduces the amount you have to track NPC movement. You're still tracking it, unless you stopped moving them.

I don't need to track that NPC A moved 3 meters, NPC B moved 5 meters, NPC C moved 3 meters, NPC D moved 10 meters, etc...  Once their movement is complete for the IP, I don't need to worry about how far they have moved, only if they were running or not.

[emsquared]

I'm not talking about dashing across a hall, but that's alright, that's not important.

The important thing is for anyone who stumbles across this thread to know that this is a complication of movement rules with no actual benefit to gameplay (indeed it has the compound detriments of not being able to be referenced, requiring reconfiguration of other rules and likely requiring more table-time to reconcile due to the more "moving parts").

[Ryo]

Nothing in my rules prevents guards from calling for backup.  They just can't run several meters, jump behind a desk and call for backup in one IP.

And why can't they? Why is the ability to do that so unreasonable to you?

Well, they only act on pass 1 if they are not surprised and are suffering that -10 to initiative.  They also only get to act on pass 1 if they are still alive.  Given in your example that the SR team has 2 to 4 passes, it also means that they rolled a much higher initiative than the security team and will be going first.

I assume you aren't putting them up against a force that literally only takes one pass to defeat. And you apparently regularly use 20 dudes, so I think I'm correct in that assumption. The guards will get to do at least one meaningful action by normal rules. By yours the only way they can is if they either don't move, standing in the open to get shot, or they started in bunkered positions.

I've played plenty of other game systems where this is the case and it has never impacted playability of the game.

Because those systems are designed for it. Shadowrun wasn't.

Nothing preventing it.  Players simply don't move as far.

They either act first then move, or move then act. By your rules, they can't do it while moving, which is what I said. and they don't move at all to reload, since every weapon requires a complex or two simple actions to reload, nor can they move at all to use skills (also a complex action). They also might want to see what they're doing (Simple action) before they start shooting (simple action) after moving into a room (normally not an action) unless you don't enforce the Observe in Detail rule.

Hey! Finally, something good to ponder!  Some of those actions (like lock picking), I don't have a problem with the player needing to waste an IP moving into position.  I'll have to examine some of other skills, like Leadership to see if making it a simple action is appropriate.

Well at least you're admitting they're wasting IP, but I guess nothing I say will change your mind if you don't care that you're screwing with the action economy and making everything take more turns than it should.

I partially disagree.  Climbing doesn't require character to spend a walk action; neither does repelling.  Jumping is a tricky one.  Technically all a character has to do is spend a free action to Run and then a Complex action to Jump.  Will ponder this one later.

It does if they aren't already standing directly in front of the thing they want to climb up or repel down. Player moves to wall, then uses a Complex action to climb it. But by your rules, they have to spend an action to move to the wall, then wait a turn before they can start climbing. Jumping is also made more complicated, since they're either moving to the edge of the gap, stopping, waiting a turn and then hopping over, or they move close to it, stop, wait a turn, then roll for run and hope they get enough hits to reach the gap in order to jump it.

My point with the videos is that SR combat rounds are already too short.  Things take longer in the real world. The notion that the average security guard can run 12 meters while shooting and reloading his weapon in a combat situation is silly.

You underestimate how fast people can do things. Also, the average security guard can't run 12 meters while shooting and reloading his weapon, since reloading is either a complex action or two simples. He'd need more than one pass to do that, which inherently makes him not average.

In addition to that, the examples you gave are pretty misleading. If I were to describe what those guys are doing in game turns, it'd be Sprinting into position (Complex Action), Readying their weapon (Simple Action), Aiming (Simple Action), and then firing (multiple Simples, or Complex action for bursts.) That's multiple passes, if not multiple combat turns.

 And even if you were right, shadowrun ascribes to a cinematic form of combat, where you can run across a wall while spraying bullets from two SMGs without breaking stride. The cinematic quality is significantly diminished, if not completely abolished, by the stilted movement system you want to implement.

Considering that he didn't move.  I fail to see the relevance.

Do you really think either one would be significantly slowed down by doing it on the move? Their accuracy would suffer, sure, but that's what penalties for moving are for.

I don't need to track that NPC A moved 3 meters, NPC B moved 5 meters, NPC C moved 3 meters, NPC D moved 10 meters, etc...  Once their movement is complete for the IP, I don't need to worry about how far they have moved, only if they were running or not.

If that is seriously your entire gripe with the current movement system, you need to work on your book keeping skills. I don't know how you manage to keep track of things like damage taken, ammo used, or the various environmental modifiers if you can't even keep track of how far you moved a miniature.

There's also a significantly better way to handle that problem: Take the highest IP in the combat, and divide the movement rates by that number. That's the maximum movement everyone gets per IP.

So if one of your player can hit 3 IP, take your Agility 3 Security guard's movement rate of 6/12 and divide it by 3. He can move 2 meters per IP, 4 if he runs. Apply the same rule to your players and you even manage to avoid that dashing adept you apparently hate so much.

[zekim]

Nothing in my rules prevents guards from calling for backup.  They just can't run several meters, jump behind a desk and call for backup in one IP.

And why can't they? Why is the ability to do that so unreasonable to you?

Because I find it unreasonable that a guard caught unaware is able to assess the situation, run several meters, and call for backup within a second or two.

 I also don't play in huge open areas where guards have to run meters to get to cover.  In most locations, there is often cover within a meter or two of the guards.  (In real life, I spend lots of time in a lot of different corporate office, labs, and industrial manufacturing areas.   I make careful note of how things are laid out in real life and apply it to Shadowrun.  Heck in my home office, there are exactly 2 locations that are farther than 1 meter from potential cover)

Well, they only act on pass 1 if they are not surprised and are suffering that -10 to initiative.  They also only get to act on pass 1 if they are still alive.  Given in your example that the SR team has 2 to 4 passes, it also means that they rolled a much higher initiative than the security team and will be going first.

I assume you aren't putting them up against a force that literally only takes one pass to defeat. And you apparently regularly use 20 dudes, so I think I'm correct in that assumption. The guards will get to do at least one meaningful action by normal rules. By yours the only way they can is if they either don't move, standing in the open to get shot, or they started in bunkered positions.

My opposition depends on the situation.  Busting into a gang's hideout? Yeah, there are going to be  20 dudes.  Facing a HTR, 10-12 is the usual number of opponents (I have 6 players).  A roving security patrol at a corp that isn't on alert is usually 2-3 guys.

So a team of 6 Shadowrunners can easily take out 2-3 guys that are surprised before they can react.

They either act first then move, or move then act. By your rules, they can't do it while moving, which is what I said. and they don't move at all to reload, since every weapon requires a complex or two simple actions to reload, nor can they move at all to use skills (also a complex action).

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And even if you were right, shadowrun ascribes to a cinematic form of combat, where you can run across a wall while spraying bullets from two SMGs without breaking stride. The cinematic quality is significantly diminished, if not completely abolished, by the stilted movement system you want to implement.

If you want to Pink Mohawk it, sure.  I prefer my shadows a bit more gritty.

Considering that he didn't move.  I fail to see the relevance.

Do you really think either one would be significantly slowed down by doing it on the move? Their accuracy would suffer, sure, but that's what penalties for moving are for.

Yes. Moving in a combat situation is vastly different than doing something on a controlled firing range.   The stress involved can serious impact fine motor coordination.  That is why professional have live fire exercises, so they train their bodies to react to the stress.

I don't need to track that NPC A moved 3 meters, NPC B moved 5 meters, NPC C moved 3 meters, NPC D moved 10 meters, etc...  Once their movement is complete for the IP, I don't need to worry about how far they have moved, only if they were running or not.

If that is seriously your entire gripe with the current movement system, you need to work on your book keeping skills.

It is not my only gripe.  I really don't want to go into detail about why I dislike the current system as it is mainly a matter of taste and opinion.

[zekim]

While I appreciate the folks that have taken the time to discuss my changes, I feel that something keeps being forgotten:

I. Don't. Like. The. Current. Movement. Rules

Seriously, I've been running SR5 without mods for about a year.  I like most stuff about the system except the movement rules.  They do not give the results that I want and I don't like the overhead they add to the game.  There is absolutely nothing that folks can say to make me like the rules.  I've already given them a fair shake and found them not to my liking.

Pointing out that my rules give different results than the original rules is not necessarily an argument against them as it is often the result that I wanted in the first place! 

Shadowrun is a game.  It is not a model of objective reality (unless you live in a world of Elves and Dragons, in which case, please up your medication).  There isn't any one true way to play the game.  The setting is adaptive enough to encompass a wide variety of play styles.

I want to adapt the movement rules to be more inline with how I view the Shadowrun universe.  If you don't like the rule mods, that is fine.  Your not playing at my table, nor am I playing at yours.    Will I like my rules better than the original rules?  Will they give me the results that I want? I don't know.  Ask me a year from now after I have had a change to give them a rigorous testing.

[Ryo]

Because I find it unreasonable that a guard caught unaware is able to assess the situation, run several meters, and call for backup within a second or two.

A guard caught unaware can't do that by the normal rules either. They'd be surprised, lose 10 initiative, and probably don't get to act that turn at all because they probably don't have more than 10 initiative. Then if they're miraculously not dead yet, they'd be able to start running, assess the situation (Observe in Detail simple action), and then call for backup when they realize shit is hitting the fan (Send Message simple action.) They might add dropping prone (free action) behind some cover to try and break sight lines, since they lack the Simple Action to actually take cover.

By your rules, after they miraculously survive the first combat turn, they're still too dumbfounded for another 3 seconds to work their feet, eyes and mouth at the same time to run away, check what's going on, and call for backup. This gives your team another full combat turn to pick them off.

I also don't play in huge open areas where guards have to run meters to get to cover.  In most locations, there is often cover within a meter or two of the guards.  (In real life, I spend lots of time in a lot of different corporate office, labs, and industrial manufacturing areas.   I make careful note of how things are laid out in real life and apply it to Shadowrun.  Heck in my home office, there are exactly 2 locations that are farther than 1 meter from potential cover)

If this is true, why are you having issues tracking movement at all? You can basically handwave it because nobody is going to reasonably exceed their maximum movement rate. And how the hell did your adept manage to run 56 meters?

My opposition depends on the situation.  Busting into a gang's hideout? Yeah, there are going to be  20 dudes.  Facing a HTR, 10-12 is the usual number of opponents (I have 6 players).  A roving security patrol at a corp that isn't on alert is usually 2-3 guys.

So a team of 6 Shadowrunners can easily take out 2-3 guys that are surprised before they can react.

Which was already true in the base game, you didn't need to screw with movement to allow them to do that. 2-3 guys that are surprised aren't even likely to get a pass before 6 shadowrunners murder them all. However, with your gang hideout of 20 dudes, your team of 6 shadowrunners could probably murder all of them before they get to put up any meaningful fight too. They're already surprised, so that's basically an entire combat turn down the drain for the opposition, and then they waste a second one trying to run for cover while bullets are flying in their direction, or at least the combo of take cover + ready weapon, if they're within 1 meter of cover. Of course, if everyone in the room is within 1 meter of something to hide behind, I'm betting that's a small room, and your team could just lob some area spells and grenades to very rapidly murder 20 guys before they do much of anything in response.

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Corporate Security doesn't have smartlinks, so you're already upgrade the standard grunts. A smartlink system costs a minimum of 2,200 nuyen per guard. That's a hell of an investment for a rent-a-cop.

Even so, you wouldn't be able to do that while running, since running takes your free action for the round. Plus that'd leave your clip lying on the floor.

If you want to Pink Mohawk it, sure.  I prefer my shadows a bit more gritty.

Mirrorshades and Black Trenchcoat is still pretty cinematic.

Yes. Moving in a combat situation is vastly different than doing something on a controlled firing range.   The stress involved can serious impact fine motor coordination.  That is why professional have live fire exercises, so they train their bodies to react to the stress.

...and you don't think they could train to react to the stress?

It is not my only gripe.  I really don't want to go into detail about why I dislike the current system as it is mainly a matter of taste and opinion.

You're needlessly complicating matters and breaking the game trying to fix a system that doesn't need fixing. However, you don't seem to care that you're breaking the game, so I don't know why you're bothering to post this in the forums. You aren't listening to anyone's advice and are stubbornly insisting your rules are better. Feel free to screw with the rules at your own table and subject your players to the problems you're ignoring. If they don't complain I don't see what's stopping you.

While I appreciate the folks that have taken the time to discuss my changes, I feel that something keeps being forgotten:

I. Don't. Like. The. Current. Movement. Rules

Seriously, I've been running SR5 without mods for about a year.  I like most stuff about the system except the movement rules.  They do not give the results that I want and I don't like the overhead they add to the game.  There is absolutely nothing that folks can say to make me like the rules.  I've already given them a fair shake and found them not to my liking.

Pointing out that my rules give different results than the original rules is not necessarily an argument against them as it is often the result that I wanted in the first place! 

Shadowrun is a game.  It is not a model of objective reality (unless you live in a world of Elves and Dragons, in which case, please up your medication).  There isn't any one true way to play the game.  The setting is adaptive enough to encompass a wide variety of play styles.

I want to adapt the movement rules to be more inline with how I view the Shadowrun universe.  If you don't like the rule mods, that is fine.  Your not playing at my table, nor am I playing at yours.    Will I like my rules better than the original rules?  Will they give me the results that I want? I don't know.  Ask me a year from now after I have had a change to give them a rigorous testing.

Then seriously, why are you bothering? Just take your ball and go home.

[emsquared]

I. Don't. Like. The. Current. Movement. Rules

Sorry people didn't come and pat you on the head and say "Good job!", don't know what you expected though when you're suggesting changes for something that you yourself admit is not broken, that you can't demonstrate any quantifiable gameplay benefit of (except a dubious claim for it benefiting people who have problems managing double digit numbers), and indeed by your own admission is just an attempt to reconcile some very personal (yet that you're unwilling to specify) dislikes with the present movement rules.

It's obvious (maybe to you too now?) that you never wanted to debate the merits of your changes, it's just too bad you didn't consider that while you may only care about it's potential for braking some mechanic there are other considerations for other people, and like you said this is the internet, so don't go pitching a fit when people want to discuss those too, yeah?

[RHat]

Pointing out that my rules give different results than the original rules is not necessarily an argument against them as it is often the result that I wanted in the first place!

It seems to me that the results people are pointing out would be better described as "problematic" than merely "different" - at the very least, by pointing them out people seem to be suggesting that to be the case.

And on a side note, these rules remind me of the old joke about not being able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.

[zekim]

If this is true, why are you having issues tracking movement at all? You can basically handwave it because nobody is going to reasonably exceed their maximum movement rate.

I didn't say that they were small areas. They are cluttered areas.  Just look at your average cube farm.  Lots of cover in a large area.  Maybe a better example is the Stuffer Shack found in Food Fight.  A fairly large area with lots of cover within a meter or two.

And how the hell did your adept manage to run 56 meters?

He did that at a junk yard.  As I explained, he did it across two Combat Rounds.  He waited for the last IP of Round 1 and ran 28m (he has Agility 7) toward the opposition.  Since his initiative is fairly high, he went before them in the next Combat Round.  This allowed him to travel another 28m and wack the dude that was gunning for.  (and then I lit him up with the guy's back-up who was out of sight at the start of the combat)

But the same principle applies in a cube farm or industrial factor as SR doesn't have different terrain types that would slow characters down.

Of course, if everyone in the room is within 1 meter of something to hide behind, I'm betting that's a small room, and your team could just lob some area spells and grenades to very rapidly murder 20 guys before they do much of anything in response.

Assuming that the objective is murder or that they are in a small room and not spread out in a large warehouse or that they are surprised...

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Corporate Security doesn't have smartlinks, so you're already upgrade the standard grunts. A smartlink system causes a minimum of 2,200 nuyen per guard. That's a hell of an investment for a rent-a-cop.

Well, you know how it is,  a few highly publicized incidents of guards shooting the wrong corp exec and the insurance companies start upping premiums and offering discounts if the security forces are equipped with smartgun links.....  some suspect some kickbacks from the various smart system manufacturers...

You're needlessly complicating matters and breaking the game trying to fix a system that doesn't need fixing.

*sigh*  I don't know how many different ways that I can explain this.  The game isn't broken.  I have never claimed that the game is broken.   The movement rules are not to my taste.  I've given them a fair chance.  I don't like them, so I'm changing them.

However, you don't seem to care that you're breaking the game, so I don't know why you're bothering to post this in the forums. You aren't listening to anyone's advice and are stubbornly insisting your rules are better.

The thing is, I'm not hearing any advice.    I'm not hearing any suggestions on how to tweak them.  All that I'm hearing is how my rules don't give the same results as the original rules.  (Which was kind of the whole point.)  I am paying attention and with the exception of Skill Use, most of the "complaints" that I have heard have pretty much lined up with my expectations.   Some interesting points have been raised that I'm going to ponder further, but nothing game stopping.

Why post them? Well, it generated discussion....

Then seriously, why are you bothering? Just take your ball and go home.

I'm glad that SR has developed a warm, nurturing community where ideas can be discussed in a frank and open manner.

[Ryo]

You don't want your idea discussed. You aren't even saying what your idea is. You just want the movement rules changed for the sake of changing them, as far as you've said, and there is no discussion to be had in 'because I said so' territory.

You post an idea here, we try to explain to you why its a bad idea. Your response is basically 'I don't care.' Okay, discussion over. Why'd you ask us to begin with?

[zekim]

Sorry people didn't come and pat you on the head and say "Good job!"

Ack! You've exposed me! I'm merely looking for validation on an internet forum to justify me life.

Just kidding.

I was expecting mostly to be ignored.  I guess folks are bored today.   I wasn't expecting folks to cling so tightly to their preconceived notions of Shadowrun that any deviation needed to be stomped into the ground.  Some folks, like Namikaze, couldn't even be bothered to understand the changes before stomping them into the ground.

Most of the discussion today sounded like this:
Me: Here are my changes
Others: But they are Purple!
Me: Good, I like Purple
Others, But they are not Green!
Me: Again, good, I didn't like Green
Others: But Green is the essential color of Shadowrun!

[zekim]

You don't want your idea discussed. You aren't even saying what your idea is.

My idea is in the very first post.

You post an idea here, we try to explain to you why its a bad idea. Your response is basically 'I don't care.' Okay, discussion over. Why'd you ask us to begin with?

You see, this is the crux of the problem.  You are trying to win a Purple/Green debate, which isn't winnable by either side as you have different expectations than I. 

RPG systems are simply arbitrary rules that try to model some aspects of "reality".   However, there isn't a model shadowrun universe that we can measure the rules against.  Heck, look at Shadowrun Returns.  It uses a completely different action point system where actions, including movement, cost 1 or more action points. 

There isn't anything objective out there that says that a normal human must be able to move several meters, take cover, and call for backup in under 3 seconds when surprised by intruders.  Insisting that security guards must be allowed to do so is a preference and not an absolute.

that said, your point about Skill Use was a good one and I will look into it. 

PS
Considering that you claim that I never said what my idea was, you did a real good job in deconstructing it 

[Ryo]

Your first post wasn't your idea, It was the solution you came up with after having your idea. Your idea is that, for whatever reason, Movement doesn't work. Nobody can help you achieve your idea if you aren't telling anyone what it is. When all you do is make a post saying you plan to replace an entire system in the game, the assumption being made is that you find the original mechanic broken or lacking, and we respond accordingly.

I have no clue what it is you're trying to achieve, and you don't want to tell anybody, so for the third time, I have to ask, why did you bother making this thread?

[emsquared]

I'm glad that SR has developed a warm, nurturing community where ideas can be discussed in a frank and open manner.

This is rich. Wow.

You talk about frank and open discussion, yet you won't (or can't?) specify your problems with the current movement system and refuse to address concerns that don't meet your criteria as a concern? You are being neither frank nor willing to engage in open discussion.

You've exposed me! I'm merely looking for validation on an internet forum to justify me life.

No, you seem to be confused, you've exposed yourself, and you were looking for validation for your movement house rule.

The conversation today was like this:
You: Here are my changes!
Others: Why?
You: Because!
Others: That's not a good reason.
You: I don't care what you say.
Others: But... you asked us?
You: So what?
Others: So... why did you ask us?
You: Because!
Others: Why am I still reading this thread?

[Namikaze]

Some folks, like Namikaze, couldn't even be bothered to understand the changes before stomping them into the ground.

Hark, my ears are burning.  I was going to stay out of this to be polite, but you summoned me.  I read your rules.  Did you read mine?  I mentioned to you from the onset that I poked about with this idea for a good long while, and never got anywhere with it.  I even tried suggesting a system that works almost identically to yours.  I was hoping to spare you this frustration and resentment.

The thing is, I'm not hearing any advice.    I'm not hearing any suggestions on how to tweak them.

This is proof that you're trolling at this point.  I told you my suggestions, and they weren't just "go home."  I told you that the only way that a movement system for Shadowrun will work anything like a miniatures game is to create a whole new system.  Unfortunately, you aren't interested in hearing any advice or suggestions on how to tweak your rules, or you wouldn't have said this sentence.

Heck, look at Shadowrun Returns.  It uses a completely different action point system where actions, including movement, cost 1 or more action points.

If only someone had suggested a system like this....

I've spent the better part of the last 10 years working on simulation design - I know a thing or two about how this kind of thing works.  I'm telling you that your idea will not work on a large scale.  I also told you that you weren't going to get a lot of appreciation from the rest of the community - and look at that, I was right!  I also told you that while this would maybe work at your table, it wouldn't work at all of them - and I can guarantee you that I'm right about that as well.

My advice to you: close this thread, move on.  You wanted to share your idea with the community, and the community doesn't like it.  Don't engage, just move on.