[CyberKumiko]

OK so I,m asking if when a magician manifests from astral, can they see & hear the mundane plane? example : manifest in a room, can I read the written word and hear a trideo broadcast? I know that the mundane plane cannot be affected when manifest so no picking things up

Arigato

C.K

[firebug]

MANIFESTING
A purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician can interact with the physical plane by manifesting. Manifesting is a psychic effect that lets you make yourself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will. Manifesting takes a Complex Action to engage or disengage. You appear on the physical plane as a ghostly, hazy image of your astral form and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike the Materialization power of spirits (p. 314), manifesting doesn’t give you a physical form, so you can’t interact with anything physically (or be harmed by physical attacks). It’s a psychic connection, so you can’t cast spells on targets on the physical plane while you’re manifesting. For the same reason, technological devices can’t detect or record you. You’re still on the astral plane, so astral attacks can still target you. Manifesting is pretty taxing, so you can only manifest for a total of your Magic Rating x 5 minutes per astral projection session.

To me, the underlined sections show that logically, Manifestation changes almost nothing for the magician, it's entirely for the benefit of others who cannot astrally perceive.  It does nothing to alter how they are experiencing the astral world, nor does it allow them to come back to the real world in any way (it is not materialization or teleportation, their physical senses are still back at their body).

[Senko]

The problem is your then left trying to figure out which blobby blob of astral matter is the one you want to communicate with and whether you can astrally manifest if there's no one there to see you.

My personal workaround has always been to houserule it a little so if you manifest your moving your mind from astral perception to normal perception i.e. no interaction/technology recording/etc as per the rules there but you can see the real world now instead of the astral one. Of course the drawback of this houserule is that since you aren't astrally perceiving when "manifested" you wont see anything on the astral for that period. I don't think it conflicts with the intent of the rules and it allows me to feel a little more comfortable with how it works.

[firebug]

The problem is your then left trying to figure out which blobby blob of astral matter is the one you want to communicate with and whether you can astrally manifest if there's no one there to see you.

You see as if you were on the astral.  So you can still see auras and the general shape and appearance of people, both of which are easy to use to identify someone.  Unless you're expecting to make liberal use of Astral Projection and refuse to put points into Assensing, that's not really a problem.  And sure, you can manifest when nobody can see you.  As devices can't record you, I cannot think of a single situation where you would need to manifest, but there was nobody around, and that mattered.

My personal workaround has always been to houserule it a little so if you manifest your moving your mind from astral perception to normal perception i.e. no interaction/technology recording/etc as per the rules there but you can see the real world now instead of the astral one. Of course the drawback of this houserule is that since you aren't astrally perceiving when "manifested" you wont see anything on the astral for that period. I don't think it conflicts with the intent of the rules and it allows me to feel a little more comfortable with how it works.

If you moved your perception back to your normal perception, you would be seeing out of the eyes attached to your real body, which would be still unconscious with its eyes closed (probably).  As I said, your physical senses are part of your body.  Astral Projection is leaving your body behind, thus leaving your physical senses behind.  If you want to see an area from far away using magic, as it exists in the real world, use the Clairvoyance spell.  Astral Projection is very powerful as is, it really doesn't need a houserule to make it better.

[adzling]

this 100%

To me, the underlined sections show that logically, Manifestation changes almost nothing for the magician, it's entirely for the benefit of others who cannot astrally perceive.  It does nothing to alter how they are experiencing the astral world, nor does it allow them to come back to the real world in any way (it is not materialization or teleportation, their physical senses are still back at their body).

[Bewilderbeast]

Apropos of noting, I always thought it would be cool to have a Johnson manifest in order to give the runners a briefing. Have them meet at some suspicious, secluded, abandoned locale, let them get increasingly paranoid and... POP! Suddenly there's an astrally projecting mage there, giving them a rundown. "Let's make this quick, I can only maintain this for a little under an hour... please hold your questions to the end."

It would be a cool scene, but I can't for the life of me think of a reason for a mage to do that.

[Rosa]

If the mission parameters suddenly change due to developments elsewhere, news of a competing team, change of hand off plans because of a leak in the Johnsons organisation . ...etc. There's a host of reasons a Johnson might need to communicate with the team

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

It would be a cool scene, but I can't for the life of me think of a reason for a mage to do that.

If the runners don't have a mage among them, it's a pretty safe way for Mr Johnson to keep from being betrayed by said runners at a meet.  Can't hack my commlink, can't shoot me, hell I'm in astral and I can see in your auras the moment you start getting hostile...

[Reaver]

MANIFESTING
A purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician can interact with the physical plane by manifesting. Manifesting is a psychic effect that lets you make yourself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will. Manifesting takes a Complex Action to engage or disengage. You appear on the physical plane as a ghostly, hazy image of your astral form and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike the Materialization power of spirits (p. 314), manifesting doesn’t give you a physical form, so you can’t interact with anything physically (or be harmed by physical attacks). It’s a psychic connection, so you can’t cast spells on targets on the physical plane while you’re manifesting. For the same reason, technological devices can’t detect or record you. You’re still on the astral plane, so astral attacks can still target you. Manifesting is pretty taxing, so you can only manifest for a total of your Magic Rating x 5 minutes per astral projection session.

To me, the underlined sections show that logically, Manifestation changes almost nothing for the magician, it's entirely for the benefit of others who cannot astrally perceive.  It does nothing to alter how they are experiencing the astral world, nor does it allow them to come back to the real world in any way (it is not materialization or teleportation, their physical senses are still back at their body).

Also note the use of the term "psychic" multiple times in the manifesting write up. Basically, you can only interact with living things with the manifesting ability, and that interaction itself is very limited.

[Marcus]

OK so I,m asking if when a magician manifests from astral, can they see & hear the mundane plane? example : manifest in a room, can I read the written word and hear a trideo broadcast? I know that the mundane plane cannot be affected when manifest so no picking things up

To directly answer your questions, Can they see & hear from the mundane Plane? Kind of, if it's alive they can perceive it, including communicating with it. They can also see the astral shadow of physical objects. Which would give them general layout of some place. But that wouldn't extend to normal written materials or purely electronic media, b/c as far as I know the astral shadow aren't that detailed. So they couldn't watch the trideo broadcast directly nor would any sort of camera or microphone detect them.

Does that help?

[Overbyte]

"if it's alive they can perceive it, including communicating with it."

How? Sound is physical. How could you talk (or hear) if you are manifested?

[Marcus]

"if it's alive they can perceive it, including communicating with it."

How? Sound is physical. How could you talk (or hear) if you are manifested?

The short answer is b/c the system says so "a psychic effect that lets you make yourself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will." Given that it is described as a Psychic effect, I assume your speaking directly to their minds, as your not detected by electronic sensors. But it is an interest question if you can be "overheard", I would assume so, so long as eves dropper is alive and present listen in. Without more information to contradict that point.

[Overbyte]

The short answer is b/c the system says so "a psychic effect that lets you make yourself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will." Given that it is described as a Psychic effect, I assume your speaking directly to their minds, as your not detected by electronic sensors. But it is an interest question if you can be "overheard", I would assume so, so long as eves dropper is alive and present listen in. Without more information to contradict that point.

Yes. This is clearly one of those very "hand-wavey" things.

"Manifesting is a psychic effect that lets you make yourself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will... You appear on the physical plane as a ghostly, hazy image of your astral form and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike the Materialization power of spirits (p. 314), manifesting doesn’t give you a physical form, so you can’t interact with anything physically (or be harmed by physical attacks). It’s a psychic connection, so you can’t cast spells on targets on the physical plane while you’re manifesting. For the same reason, technological devices can’t detect or record you."

So I have to agree with you. Since no devices can see or hear you, you must not be using sound or light. It is psychic (read magical) projection into peoples minds that allow them to see and hear you.

This does bring up all sorts of other questions about LOS and willingness, etc.. but that's for another day.