Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Lormyr on <08-13-20/1739:17>
-
Fun build that made me lol. Currently has krime stinger grenades, which can be replaced with stun grenades if for some reason they do not become legal. Also should be a minotaur instead of troll when they become legal for that extra +1 body.
Fat Larry
Priorities:
Attributes A (24 points)
Metatype B (Troll, 11 points)
Skills C (20 points)
Magic D (Adept, 1 Magic)
Resources E (8,000Y)
Attributes:
Body 10 (14)
Agility 1
Reaction 1
Strength 1
Willpower 6
Logic 5
Intuition 6
Charisma 4
Edge 5
Essence 4.17
Magic 4
Derived Attributes:
Composure: 10
Judge Intentions: 12
Memory: 11
Initiative/Actions: 7 + 1d6/1 Major, 2 Minor
Condition Monitor (P/S): 19/11
Defense Rating: 19
Defense Test: 15
Damage Resistance Test: 14 (w/all incoming DV -5; reduce damage taken after test by 1, minimum 1)
Movement: 8/11/+1
Skills:
Athletics 7 ( 8 ) (Archery +2)
Con 5
Influence 5 (Negotiation +2)
Perception 3
Qualities:
Aptitude (Athletics), -12 Karma
Built Tough 4, -8 Karma w/free levels
Dermal Deposits, free
Exceptional Attribute (Body), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Intuition), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Willpower), -12 Karma
Thermographic Vision, free
Allergy (Soy, Extreme), +20 Karma
Stolen Gear, +20 Karma
Adept Powers:
Combat Sense 8
Ware: (Essence -1.83, 73,150Y)
Bone Density Augmentation (Alphaware; Essence -0.96, 26,400Y)
Cyberlimb Hand (Obvious, Left) (Used; Essence -0.275, 11,000Y)
Accessories: Attribute Increase (Agility) 3
Cyberlimb Hand (Obvious, Right) (Used; Essence -0.275, 11,000Y)
Accessories: Attribute Increase (Agility) 3
Platelet Factories (Used; Essence -0.22, 9,350Y)
Reflex Recorder (Athletics) (Essence -0.1, 15,400Y)
Gear: (42,294Y)
Jazz x20 (1,650Y)
Psyche x20 (4,400Y)
Commlink, Tansys Avalon (8,800Y)
Credstick, gold (110Y)
Earbuds (275Y)
Enhancements: Single Sensor (Ultrasound)
Fake SIN, rating 6 (16,500Y)
Armor License, rating 6 (1,320Y)
Bow Hunting License, rating 6 (1,320Y)
Grenade License, rating 6 (1,320Y)
Skilled Trade License (Pharmacist, Drugs and Toxins), rating 6 (1,320Y)
Weapon Modification License, rating 6 (1,320Y)
Goggles, rating 6 (3,960Y)
Enhancements: Flare Compensation, Low-Light Vision, Smartlink, Ultrasound Link,
Vision Magnification
Armor: (63,250Y)
Securetech Invisi-Shield Armor (27,500Y)
Accessories: Mystic Weave 2
Security Armor (35,750Y)
Modifications: GelWeave 4
Weapons: (15,433Y)
Collapsible Heavy Crossbow (10,483Y)
Accessories: Laser Sight, Tactical Sling
Modificiations: Internal Smartgun System, Nanoconstruction, Personalized Grip
Injection Bolt w/dose of Nacrojet x20 (2,200Y)
Krime Stinger Grenade x20 (2,750Y)
13,873Y left to buy temporary lifestyle before switch to high, real food during, tweak list, and carry into play
Combat:
Collapsible Crossbow (w/20 injection bolts filled with Nacroject) [15 dice + Wild Die to hit, Bow, DV 4P plus Nacroject,
7/15/8/6/-]
20 x Krime Stinger Grenades [DV 16S/12S/8S, Blast 20m, 2/1/0/-/-]
Karma:
+50 Base
+40 negative Qualities
-56 Positive Qualities
-20 Nuyen
-5 Athletics Specialization
-5 Influence Specialization
4 remaining
Design Note:
If you play with GMs whom do not allow cyber hand stats to work for pulling triggers of ranged weapons, that's cool. It wouldn't often help anyhow. Drop both of them and use essence vacuum and remaining nuyen for Toxin Extractor. The build is stronger with that option anyhow.
Build Features:
So security armor with GelWeave provides you an amazing -5 vs. all incoming DV. Unfortunately, when GelWeave is used for this purpose it reduces your Agility, Reaction, and Movement by several points for 3 full rounds after the last hit. When one of those is reduce to 0, you gain the Immobilized status. . .which humorously enough does not prevent you from making Dodge Tests, it just eliminates your ability to add Reaction to that test.
So we compensate for that by expecting to get Immobilized, totally dumping Agility and Reaction, but buying a ludicrous amount of Combat Sense to still be able to dodge well. With an automatic -5 off the DV of incoming attacks and 14 soak dice, even grenades start to look less imposing.
While Immobilized, you're going to have 0 Agility and a further -3 on all attack rolls, which currently leaves this with a mediocre 8 (1 wild) dice for the bow, and 5 dice for the grenades. Make liberal use of Edge to manipulate that Wild Die to max value. Rolled a 1? Spend an Edge to re-roll it. Rolled a 4? Spend 2 Edge to turn it into a 5 worth 3 hits.
Late game, your Combat Sense will be so high that pretty much any attack that allows a Defense Test is going to miss, so the nemesis inflicting Immobilized will only be explosives and indirect combat spells typically. You're attack pools will also be substantially higher even when Immobilized, so the penalty will be less impactful.
You're going to start every Mission down 4 P and S CM, due to Stolen Gear. As for the S portion of that, you can flat out buy it off after an hour of game time, so it is essentially negligible the majority of the time. Being down 4 P still leaves you with 15, which is plenty due to how much incoming DV you reduce. It will also be fully healed after an evenings rest, which happens in a good 50% or more of Missions.
Finally, it also works decently as a back up face, and drugs drugs drugs! If you are not on Jazz and Psyche at all times, it's being done wrong, and Fat Larry is a little less jolly!
Advancement Path:
A full Missions season (12 SRMs, 8 CMPs, 2 PMs) will net ballpark around 150 karma and 264,000Y, before adjustments for Working for the Man or People. We'll also be down 90,000Y to maintain that High Lifestyle for maximum amusement, and to avoid soy food at all costs! Fat Larry only eats real meats (tm), son!
Use 130 Karma to get to Magic 6, Initiate Grade 6, and buy Improved Ability (Athletics) 3 and Combat Sense 18. Use another 10 Karma for Athletics Expertise (Bows) and Specialization (Throwing). A little Working for the People should be able to get you enough leftover Karma to raise Athletics to 8.
Money is pretty much a straight shot in either an armorer or decker contact to find you a suit of Heavy MilSpec with GelWeave 4 and Tough Weave 2. The armor alone will run you 77,000Y, before factoring in what you have to spend on Contacts to locate it. Once you have it, use Edge for the same Wild Die manipulation for your soak. Get that 5 worth 3 hits when needed, or re-roll that 1 to most likely prevent loss of your other 5's.
If any karma/yen remain, focusing on small qi foci boosts will be the most bang for the buck, but I wanted to relying on those as the primary power source due to how easy they are to shut down currently.
Once done, and while Immobilized, you will have 24 defense dice (lol while stuck to the ground), and reduce all incoming DV by a massive -9 (3 from Heavy MilSpec, 4 from GelWeave, 2 from Tough Weave) before you even factor in your 14 soak dice and reducing anything that actually gets through by 1 (min 1) from platelet factories. Your crossbow attack will have 12 dice + wild (20 while not Immobilized, which should be most of the time now), and grenades 11 dice (19 while not Immobilized).
Personality:
Fat Larry is incredibly fat and extremely jolly. He's always laughing, even at his own misfortune. Whether it is a good outlook on life or faking it to make it, not even Larry is sure!
Fat Larry has a devestating allergy to soy, which almost all food is made of, so he has worked hard to attain a lifestyle that allows him to eat actual real food. Despite his lifestyle, his pad is not particularly impressive, due to the oppressive costs of having a personal chef with real food on hand at all times. Lucky for you though, Fat Larry loves to share!
Fat Larry also routinely shows up to every meet and gathering with an assortment of bruises, most often a black eye, noticeable limp, and two pieces of tissue stuffed up each bloodied nostril. Man those guys really want their stuff back, but that won't stop Fat Larry from leaving the house and enjoying life! Besides, he already ate those truffles. . .
You could easily tweak the build to be even more combat hyperspecialized, but the main thing to avoid is melee stuff, since you are going to spend a lot of early career Immobilized. The main weaknesses are direct combat spells (because your resistance pool is only so-so, and they do not have a DV value, it's just eat damage), manipulation spells (again, so-so resistance pool), toxins (but they fuck everyone currently), and explosives (again, fuck everyone currently).
-
Neat, and yes lulzy.
Potential problem: I don't know how often you'll get to wear that fancy schmancy gelweave armor. Sometimes, sure. But also certainly, far from all the time.
Bigger problem: Only your hands are AGI 5... I don't think there's a GM in existence who would buy the argument that you don't use your arms while shooting a weapon/crossbow. And your arms are AGI 1, which means your AGI for the attack would be 1.
Which segues into a pedantic point... your AGI is not 1 (5). It's AGI 1. You have no AGI bonuses that I can see, other than the cyberhands which have their own AGI of 5.
Edit: Actually, another pedantic but important point... given your allergy.
With resources E and Stolen gear it's a mechanical impossibility to have High Lifestyle. With Stolen gear, ALL your money you gain via karma must be spent on gear, bioware, and/or cyberware. That means you have your resources pick to buy lifestyle... and in your case 8,000 is all you have to spread around on non-gear.
-
Potential problem: I don't know how often you'll get to wear that fancy schmancy gelweave armor. Sometimes, sure. But also certainly, far from all the time.
Totally. But if my experiences from playing and running every Chicago Mission holds true, with team support, you can get away with it far more often than not. Between concealment, physical mask, improved invisibility, matrix tampering, social rolls, bribes, and just keeping it in the trunk until go time most of our locals got away with their MilSpec the vast majority of the time.
It also helps that the security armor itself is legal, just the weave isnt. How obvious is it? Hard to say since the book doesn't define it well, but it might possibly offer some concealability advantage.
Bigger problem: Only your hands are AGI 5... I don't think there's a GM in existence who would buy the argument that you don't use your arms while shooting a weapon/crossbow. And your arms are AGI 1, which means your AGI for the attack would be 1.
Most of our locals have let that go. Even if not, it really makes next to no difference, since you will spend the substantial portion of your combat existence at a hard 0. I only fully optimized this version by about 75%, so made some situational and luxury choices instead of just hard murder.
Which segues into a pedantic point... your AGI is not 1 (5). It's AGI 1. You have no AGI bonuses that I can see, other than the cyberhands which have their own AGI of 5.
Yeah. Just laziness on my part.
Edit: Actually, another pedantic but important point... given your allergy.
With resources E and Stolen gear it's a mechanical impossibility to have High Lifestyle. With Stolen gear, ALL your money you gain via karma must be spent on gear, bioware, and/or cyberware. That means you have your resources pick to buy lifestyle... and in your case 8,000 is all you have to spread around on non-gear.
You know I actually straight overlooked that minor nuance. No big to the overall build, you just come in at middle and immediately upgrade to high. Very minor impact overall. IMO it would be a very vindictive GM that wouldn't let you get buy 1 session with enough real food to get by on a Middle Lifestyle. If all else fails, just actually pay for real food with carry over nuyen.
I also forgot to account for the Troll tax, but there is plenty of nuyen left to shuffle around that it will work out fine.
-
When I had read through the section I didn't notice they hadn't put in the limit of the max ranks in a power is equal to your magic. Its not even late game when this dude will be almost impossible to hit. Sigh, like I think a lot of the powers are over costed by a large amount but when you leave an opening it just leads to gimmicking the system to get by which then gets ridiculous.
-
Allergy (Soy, Extreme), +20 Karma
Fat Larry will starve to death in the first month, sadly... ;)
-
When I had read through the section I didn't notice they hadn't put in the limit of the max ranks in a power is equal to your magic. Its not even late game when this dude will be almost impossible to hit. Sigh, like I think a lot of the powers are over costed by a large amount but when you leave an opening it just leads to gimmicking the system to get by which then gets ridiculous.
There is an argument that since Combat Sense gives bonuses to "defensive" tests, that means resistance tests against spells is not getting that bonus. I'm not sure if I completely embrace that interpretation because there's no such thing as a "defensive" test, technically speaking. So it must be an imprecise/descriptive label, which is ammunition against the "you roll RESISTANCE vs spells!" argument. But otoh, surely combat sense isn't supposed to help you resist being conned/influenced. So.. maybe spells too, since you don't make a defense test vs spells?
So... if you play stupid word games, a GM may give you stupid prizes ;)
But yes, I agree what does/doesn't combat sense work on is an absolutely valid nomination for clarification... and its already in the pipeline now :D
-
When I had read through the section I didn't notice they hadn't put in the limit of the max ranks in a power is equal to your magic. Its not even late game when this dude will be almost impossible to hit. Sigh, like I think a lot of the powers are over costed by a large amount but when you leave an opening it just leads to gimmicking the system to get by which then gets ridiculous.
I had to double take many times to make sure I didn't miss the old limitation anywhere. SSDR and I talked about this a few days ago. Most powers currently printed have their own inherent limit (like attribute and skill augments), but notably combat sense and critical strike currently stack as high as you care to put your resources into them.
To be fair though, a hitty adept can potentially outpace a dodgy adept depending on builds due to infinite level weapon foci. Favor remains with dodgy build though.
Allergy (Soy, Extreme), +20 Karma
Fat Larry will starve to death in the first month, sadly... ;)
Lol, he's too fat to starve! Personally I don't think any reasonable GM would have a problem with high lifestyle covering meals appropriately, but even with a small food tax on top the build is worth mechanically.
"HAHAHAHA! Hello my skinny human friends! Welcome to Fat Larry's backyard barbeque! I put the Jazz in the jerk chicken, friends!".
When I had read through the section I didn't notice they hadn't put in the limit of the max ranks in a power is equal to your magic. Its not even late game when this dude will be almost impossible to hit. Sigh, like I think a lot of the powers are over costed by a large amount but when you leave an opening it just leads to gimmicking the system to get by which then gets ridiculous.
There is an argument that since Combat Sense gives bonuses to "defensive" tests, that means resistance tests against spells is not getting that bonus. I'm not sure if I completely embrace that interpretation because there's no such thing as a "defensive" test, technically speaking. So it must be an imprecise/descriptive label, which is ammunition against the "you roll RESISTANCE vs spells!" argument. But otoh, surely combat sense isn't supposed to help you resist being conned/influenced. So.. maybe spells too, since you don't make a defense test vs spells?
So... if you play stupid word games, a GM may give you stupid prizes ;)
But yes, I agree what does/doesn't combat sense work on is an absolutely valid nomination for clarification... and its already in the pipeline now :D
I believe the only reasonable way to read combat sense is allowing it to apply to an attack you can physically dodge. So unarmed attacks, weapon attacks, and indirect combat spells (certainly not direct), but nothing else.
-
For whatever reason... direct and indirect spells resolve in ways completely unlike prior editions. I'm completely unsure what the intent is supposed to be on the issue of "dodging" spells. Non-combat spells, like control actions? Levitate? Probably shouldn't get combat sense vs those, but I don't see any way to treat manipulations differently than combat spells.
Regardless, certain spells will still work by just attacking Larry's gear instead of him. I'm not levitating/fireballing YOU, I'm going after your armor. I'll just roll against the Object resistance....
-
When I had read through the section I didn't notice they hadn't put in the limit of the max ranks in a power is equal to your magic. Its not even late game when this dude will be almost impossible to hit. Sigh, like I think a lot of the powers are over costed by a large amount but when you leave an opening it just leads to gimmicking the system to get by which then gets ridiculous.
I had to double take many times to make sure I didn't miss the old limitation anywhere. SSDR and I talked about this a few days ago. Most powers currently printed have their own inherent limit (like attribute and skill augments), but notably combat sense and critical strike currently stack as high as you care to put your resources into them.
To be fair though, a hitty adept can potentially outpace a dodgy adept depending on builds due to infinite level weapon foci. Favor remains with dodgy build though.
Allergy (Soy, Extreme), +20 Karma
Fat Larry will starve to death in the first month, sadly... ;)
Lol, he's too fat to starve! Personally I don't think any reasonable GM would have a problem with high lifestyle covering meals appropriately, but even with a small food tax on top the build is worth mechanically.
"HAHAHAHA! Hello my skinny human friends! Welcome to Fat Larry's backyard barbeque! I put the Jazz in the jerk chicken, friends!".
When I had read through the section I didn't notice they hadn't put in the limit of the max ranks in a power is equal to your magic. Its not even late game when this dude will be almost impossible to hit. Sigh, like I think a lot of the powers are over costed by a large amount but when you leave an opening it just leads to gimmicking the system to get by which then gets ridiculous.
There is an argument that since Combat Sense gives bonuses to "defensive" tests, that means resistance tests against spells is not getting that bonus. I'm not sure if I completely embrace that interpretation because there's no such thing as a "defensive" test, technically speaking. So it must be an imprecise/descriptive label, which is ammunition against the "you roll RESISTANCE vs spells!" argument. But otoh, surely combat sense isn't supposed to help you resist being conned/influenced. So.. maybe spells too, since you don't make a defense test vs spells?
So... if you play stupid word games, a GM may give you stupid prizes ;)
But yes, I agree what does/doesn't combat sense work on is an absolutely valid nomination for clarification... and its already in the pipeline now :D
I believe the only reasonable way to read combat sense is allowing it to apply to an attack you can physically dodge. So unarmed attacks, weapon attacks, and indirect combat spells (certainly not direct), but nothing else.
Yeah I think the term is edition blindness. I get that a lot with 6e. I am so used to how things worked I missed that it wasn't there. I had assumed max combat sense 4 on your build, you'd have to bump magic to get it higher, which would really slow it down. Probably take multiple seasons to get absurd.
And while yeah I assume that is the intent of combat sense, only working for standard reaction+intuition defense tests I honestly don't know if that is how its written as unfortunately this edition doesn't clarify those things.
Also yeah, I can't conceive of a GM not letting you buy food directly.
-
And while yeah I assume that is the intent of combat sense, only working for standard reaction+intuition defense tests I honestly don't know if that is how its written as unfortunately this edition doesn't clarify those things.
I think that's probably the intent. And if so, it'd rule out spells. Neither Direct nor Indirect spells are resisted with REA+INT in this edition.
-
And while yeah I assume that is the intent of combat sense, only working for standard reaction+intuition defense tests I honestly don't know if that is how its written as unfortunately this edition doesn't clarify those things.
I think that's probably the intent. And if so, it'd rule out spells. Neither Direct nor Indirect spells are resisted with REA+INT in this edition.
Yeah, it tripped me out when I read it. Both the stats chooses for indirect and neither is phrased as a defense test but as resisted by or vs. I was trying to figure out if the lack meant both were defense tests or neither.
-
I count 7 Qualities total. I would think adding two levels of Built Tough counts as a Quality? Or did I miss a FAQ? Easy/minor fix.
And can I say Stolen Gear giving both Karma and Nuyen is flat out nuts? Give up two Quality slots for Built Tough 4 and Stolen Gear 20, $200,000 Nuyen and 4 Bonus Karma for 4 Stun Boxes and a wash on your Physical Condition Monitor. And potentially if someone tosses a heal your way, you're up 4 Physical Boxes.
And as there is no restrictions on healing that damage, toss a medkit at your boo-boo, hit up the mage for a heal, maybe try out some first aid...Pssh. Even if the GM has you getting jumped on the way to the meet you're likely fine before the legwork is over.
-
I count 7 Qualities total. I would think adding two levels of Built Tough counts as a Quality? Or did I miss a FAQ? Easy/minor fix.
Gray area, but legal as far as I can tell. Also essentially negligible to the overall effectiveness of the build. The core elements are crystal clear legal.
And as there is no restrictions on healing that damage, toss a medkit at your boo-boo, hit up the mage for a heal, maybe try out some first aid...Pssh. Even if the GM has you getting jumped on the way to the meet you're likely fine before the legwork is over.
The FAQ does state the damage from the quality can only heal naturally. So full rest for the P portion, and hour of chillin for the S portion. I am legitimately tickled about the mental image of this unflappably jolly troll showing up to every meeting totally battered but loudly laughing everything off despite the trauma he obviously endured.
"No no my friends, I will be fine! *blows blood out of his nose and inserts tissue* Besides! Those poor bastards will NEVER get those truffles back, bwa hahahaha! Now, let's go get paid to commit some crimes!".
On any other build it would be a legitimate downside, I just looped around it with system mastery. Toot my own horn a little there. :p
And while yeah I assume that is the intent of combat sense, only working for standard reaction+intuition defense tests I honestly don't know if that is how its written as unfortunately this edition doesn't clarify those things.
I think that's probably the intent. And if so, it'd rule out spells. Neither Direct nor Indirect spells are resisted with REA+INT in this edition.
Yeah, it tripped me out when I read it. Both the stats chooses for indirect and neither is phrased as a defense test but as resisted by or vs. I was trying to figure out if the lack meant both were defense tests or neither.
Well I personally believe that since indirect spells have a point of origin away from you, and travel to you visibly for impact (exactly like firearms) it makes complete sense to allow combat sense to work on those. Pretty much only those though, unless there are a few outlier spells that function similarly.
I also agree with Shinobi that some of the defensive pool choices for spells are utterly nonsensical. Like direct spells using intuition instead of body. To quote the great Penllawen "Lol you wot m8?".
-
I count 7 Qualities total. I would think adding two levels of Built Tough counts as a Quality? Or did I miss a FAQ? Easy/minor fix.
And can I say Stolen Gear giving both Karma and Nuyen is flat out nuts? Give up two Quality slots for Built Tough 4 and Stolen Gear 20, $200,000 Nuyen and 4 Bonus Karma for 4 Stun Boxes and a wash on your Physical Condition Monitor. And potentially if someone tosses a heal your way, you're up 4 Physical Boxes.
And as there is no restrictions on healing that damage, toss a medkit at your boo-boo, hit up the mage for a heal, maybe try out some first aid...Pssh. Even if the GM has you getting jumped on the way to the meet you're likely fine before the legwork is over.
Multiple levels for the same purchased quality only count as one, I honestly had not thought of how that interacts with free qualities with levels. I think I'd assumed that would count as a quality, but now I am not sure.
-
Regardless, certain spells will still work by just attacking Larry's gear instead of him. I'm not levitating/fireballing YOU, I'm going after your armor. I'll just roll against the Object resistance....
Yeah, see that is the thing. This build is stupid, but still little more than a fly to be swatted away by a simple traditional mage. It would be really hard to wear down with damage, but throw some nacrojet, a control thoughts or actions, levitate, or any number of other things will neuter or defeat it. It's just fun a legitimate "tank" build in a system that wasn't supposed to support that anymore.
The more min-maxed version of the build would be using toxin extractors to help with the toxin problem, among other things.
Of all the power changes that happened the loss of a useful magic resistance for countering casters upset me the most.
-
Well frequently the core book has a really anemic adept power list. I expect we will see some magic resistance powers in the magic book.
-
Well frequently the core book has a really anemic adept power list. I expect we will see some magic resistance powers in the magic book.
Magic Resistance was that power, though, which is what makes me feel the likely hood of this is unlikely.
Unrelated, updated the build page to include the troll tax I forgot, the stolen gear cash not working for lifestyle that I overlooked and SSDR pointed out, and a brief design note to swap cyberhands for toxin extractor if you play with GMs who don't want to let those fly.
-
So... another observation. Opinion based this time:
thanks to buying exceptional attribute thrice, you can simultaneously have Body at max and Will and Int all at 6.
Is it REALLY worth 24 karma to have Will/Int both at 6 instead of 5 each? Those extra dice are frikkin' expensive given how marginal the increase is from 5 dice to 6 dice.
Plus the "saved" attribute points could then go elsewhere. And free up 2 more opportunity slots for different qualities.
-
So... another observation. Opinion based this time:
thanks to buying exception attribute thrice, you can simultaneously have Body at max and Will and Int all at 6.
Is it REALLY worth 24 karma to have Will/Int both at 6 instead of 5 each? Those extra dice are frikkin' expensive for the marginal benefit.
Plus the "saved" attribute points could then go elsewhere. And free up 2 more opportunity slots for different qualities.
IMO, it is generally only worth it for hyperspecialized builds. Since this build freely dumps 3 stats (1 due to strength having no value, and agility/reaction due to GelWeave reliance), it works out nicely in this particular case since all of his other attributes are already chargen capped but edge.
For more rounded builds, I agree with you. Working on two other builds to share later.
-
Well, you're a troll with 10 body. Even if you weren't "fluffed" (pun intended) as being super fat, having STR 1 is still begging for a GM to say you're encumbered just getting your fat ass up out of a chair. Just because you CAN leave STR at 1 it doesn't mean you're immune from being told you're unable to hoist yourself up a stairwell.
-
Well, you're a troll with 10 body. Even if you weren't "fluffed" (pun intended) as being super fat, having STR 1 is still begging for a GM to say you're encumbered just getting your fat ass up out of a chair. Just because you CAN leave STR at 1 it doesn't mean you're immune from being told you're unable to hoist yourself up a stairwell.
So just my opinion here, but IMO that would be pretty vindictive GMing. An attribute of 2 reflects average skill, so would represent below average, not crippled. Adding some RP elements about how you struggle to get out of chairs or like that would fun though. If someone was to play this character and you land with "that" GM, just politely excuse yourself and wait for a different (read: better) one.
My second counter to that would be despite being fat and below average strength, he is both in amazing health (body 10) and exceptionally athletic (8!). How does that logically work? I leave that for each observer to sort out. I play the game with the mechanics given to me.
-
Even at STR 2, you'd have strength comparable to an average human.
How well would the average human get around if they packed on 300, 400 pounds to their frame without any increase to strength?
And STR 1 isn't average, it's BELOW average. So, with the strength of a 98 pound weakling trying to animate a body the size of a troll... is it REALLY vindictive GMing to say you're having trouble going up stairs?
Besides... carrying capacity is an objective rule. It may not be commonly enforced, but if you go out on thin ice you're asking for it to be. Granted, carrying capacity is implicitly only talking about stuff beyond your potentially corpulent frame, but still how much do you think a set of troll sized clothes weighs? How about ARMORED clothing in troll size? STR 1 is pretty much encumbered all the time anyway... if you actually enforce that rule.
My second counter to that would be despite being fat and below average strength, he is both in amazing health (body 10) and exceptionally athletic (8!). How does that logically work? I leave that for each observer to sort out. I play the game with the mechanics given to me.
Thats getting into where, in a home game, I'd be 100% comfortable saying you're simply not allowed to have 8 Athletics while leaving your STR at 1. Because, as you put it: "How does that logically work?" Exactly! It doesn't*.
Of course those kinds of restrictions are well above and beyond the scope and appropriateness for SRM.
*EDIT: Ok, I CAN see a rationale for 8 Athletics and 1 STR: You're a former olympian who suffered a debilitating disease/injury, and you only went down to 1 STR after developing phenomenal athletics.
-
How well would the average human get around if they packed on 300, 400 pounds to their frame without any increase to strength?
Very poorly. The average real life human of that size also doesn't have the game reality equivalent of an "elite pro" athletic capability, though. Those two things do not logically compute at all, but they do in the mechanics of this game world.
And STR 1 isn't average, it's BELOW average.
That is what I said above. No contest, I agree.
So, with the strength of a 98 pound weakling trying to animate a body the size of a troll... is it REALLY vindictive GMing to say you're having trouble going up stairs?
It depends on how it is implemented. If we are adding mechanical penalties where none exist in the game world, that is vindictive. GM doesn't like the way player build their PC, so GM is punishing them with game mechanics for it. It is the textbook definition of adversarial GMing.
If we are making notes about role-play elements, like he slowly struggles his way out of the chair, slowly struggles his way up the steps, ect. when it doesn't mechanically matter, then all of that is both totally cool and encouraged.
Besides... carrying capacity is an objective rule. It may not be commonly enforced, but if you go out on thin ice you're asking for it to be. Granted, carrying capacity is implicitly only talking about stuff beyond your potentially corpulent frame, but still how much do you think a set of troll sized clothes weighs? How about ARMORED clothing in troll size? STR 1 is pretty much encumbered all the time anyway... if you actually enforce that rule.
And this is part of the problem with incomplete rule sets, like assigning weight to items. With a lack of proper item weight / carrying capacity, I personally would resent receiving a heavy penalty over what is essentially non-existent mechanics. On the other hand, I personally would also be totally fine receiving reasonably light mechanical inconvenience. If we wanted to say Fat Larry is a bit slower due to his armor (in addition to the speed reduction the armor already imposes), I would be cool with that. If he walked around for hours in the armor and we wanted to have him make Body + Willpower rolls to resist Fatigue levels, I'd also be cool with that personally.
Now obviously if he actually tries to lift heavy things, despite having that titanic body + willpower dice pool for it, I would personally just say things like "Fat Larry makes a valiant attempt to help the strong guy lift the heavy thing, but after several seconds of huffing and wheezing, he resorts to just lethargically leaning his own mass against the side of the heavy thing, leaving strong guy to do all the work.".
*EDIT: Ok, I CAN see a rationale for 8 Athletics and 1 STR: You're a former olympian who suffered a debilitating disease/injury, and you only went down to 1 STR after developing phenomenal athletics.
Edit for your edit:
Yeah, that is one example of how one could apply some form of logic to make it more reasonable.
Personally, this is where I fall, both as a player and GM. My #1 object when GMing is to just make sure my players have fun. My #2 objective is running the rules as written, so that everyone learns those rules appropriately. So long as a character is legal, I will let absolutely anything fly without additional hardship, even if I personally don't like the build, because I want my player to have a good time playing what they designed.
As a player, character building is half of my whole fun in gaming. I also want to be permitted to play my legal character without added hassle that doesn't exist in the mechanics, unless I agree to them for any valid reason I may choose. Sometimes I design ridiculous but mechanically accurate characters like Fat Larry, sometimes I design ones that are far less controversial. The only consistent in my builds is that they will be min-maxed to some degree, because that is what I enjoy.
To each their own, though. Everyone should play in the way they have fun. If one feels the need to judge anyone else for their play style, there are conveniently lots of people who will share your personal views to play with.
-
I am also in the boat of, "too many qualities." And I do see where the wording can be subject to interpretation on the "Step Three: Select Qualities" section, but in the "Step Four: Spend Customization Karma" the wording is more crisp around:
the limit of six qualities still applies
-
I am also in the boat of, "too many qualities." And I do see where the wording can be subject to interpretation on the "Step Three: Select Qualities" section, but in the "Step Four: Spend Customization Karma" the wording is more crisp around:
the limit of six qualities still applies
I can't speak on the intent of the rule, but if it is ran that way, many non-humans will have half or more of their options already chosen for them. I can't imagine that is intentional, but again, I didn't design or write it.
-
Well the qualities you get for free, like Built Tough (1), shouldn't count against the six.
However it is very vague if you take that Built Tough (1) and advance it to (2+), should it count against one of the six NOW. Until it's made explicitly clear, my personal stance is that players should assume it does (because imo you should always prepare for a GM to answer in the least liberal interpretation in organized play), but GMs should give players the benefit of the doubt if they fail to account for it in the six. Of course if you have someone who's pushing the envelope, that'd end up meaning the answer is in effect "it doesn't".
-
Well the qualities you get for free, like Built Tough (1), shouldn't count against the six.
However it is very vague if you take that Built Tough (1) and advance it to (2+), should it count against one of the six NOW. Until it's made explicitly clear, my personal stance is that players should assume it does (because imo you should always prepare for a GM to answer in the least liberal interpretation in organized play), but GMs should give players the benefit of the doubt if they fail to account for it in the six. Of course if you have someone who's pushing the envelope, that'd end up meaning the answer is in effect "it doesn't".
I mostly agree. Like I told Hobbes, that and cyberhands the only gray areas on the sheet. Both are irrelevant to the core build though, so it will work totally fine without them (better with toxin extractor anyhow really).
-
You're selecting Built Tough as quality, even if it's just improving a free racial quality. So then it no longer would be the freebie you obtained, so would count against the limit of 6. BT(1) is fine, BT(4) = a selected quality.
-
Well the qualities you get for free, like Built Tough (1), shouldn't count against the six.
However it is very vague if you take that Built Tough (1) and advance it to (2+), should it count against one of the six NOW. Until it's made explicitly clear, my personal stance is that players should assume it does (because imo you should always prepare for a GM to answer in the least liberal interpretation in organized play), but GMs should give players the benefit of the doubt if they fail to account for it in the six. Of course if you have someone who's pushing the envelope, that'd end up meaning the answer is in effect "it doesn't".
I mostly agree. Like I told Hobbes, that and cyberhands the only gray areas on the sheet. Both are irrelevant to the core build though, so it will work totally fine without them (better with toxin extractor anyhow really).
Personally I go with a general rule of "If you gained Karma or Spent Karma on a Quality, it's one of your Six".
In Debt being the specific overriding the general at a 0 Karma cost, but still counts as one of the Six.
And yeah, better off with the Toxin Extractor anyway.
-
Fro the strength to weight discussion, the only way the new system makes any sense is if you visualize the strength as their output past their ability to move. So a 1 strength troll is technically stronger than a 1 strength human in that they move a 600 pound frame, but they still bench the same. now personally I think the new metatype system is terrible due to this and other changes, but ships have sailed or whatever.
-
Fro the strength to weight discussion, the only way the new system makes any sense is if you visualize the strength as their output past their ability to move. So a 1 strength troll is technically stronger than a 1 strength human in that they move a 600 pound frame, but they still bench the same. now personally I think the new metatype system is terrible due to this and other changes, but ships have sailed or whatever.
100%. We call attention to what doesn't make sense, and work with what we got after the dust settles. Even being able to be an ork or troll with a strength of 1 completely defies logic, but there it is.
I know this is not a terribly desirable trait, but I legitimately gain joy out of making builds around the busted/nonsensical/bad rules to play them, to highlight why the shit needs changed. There is a 100% chance I will have a grenade abuse PC at some point, because explosive damage is my #1 bullseye at present.
-
Fro the strength to weight discussion, the only way the new system makes any sense is if you visualize the strength as their output past their ability to move. So a 1 strength troll is technically stronger than a 1 strength human in that they move a 600 pound frame, but they still bench the same. now personally I think the new metatype system is terrible due to this and other changes, but ships have sailed or whatever.
100%. We call attention to what doesn't make sense, and work with what we got after the dust settles. Even being able to be an ork or troll with a strength of 1 completely defies logic, but there it is.
I know this is not a terribly desirable trait, but I legitimately gain joy out of making builds around the busted/nonsensical/bad rules to play them, to highlight why the shit needs changed. There is a 100% chance I will have a grenade abuse PC at some point, because explosive damage is my #1 bullseye at present.
I frequently build the same way if we are talking missions. Outside of missions with friends well I usually GM but if not I try to make a character that fits the group. I'm been mocking the 9 body 1 strength troll from the get go, its a terrible rule for the setting. Some 8 foot monster with a 1 strength just doesn't fit, a super skinny and tiny troll is going to be 350 pounds. Like, I get the desire to make all metas viable at all priories. But, this wasn't the way. Personally if you needed to stick with priority I think they should have ditched the meta column. Pick your race, each one has its starting stats and abilities, and different starting Karmas. Like Trolls have 50 starting karma, humans 100. Until they come out with the book with different character creation methods people are kind of stuck with it though. And even after that missions people may be stuck with it for a bit longer.
But grenades are the clear mechanical winner in bad rules.
-
I frequently build the same way if we are talking missions. Outside of missions with friends well I usually GM but if not I try to make a character that fits the group. I'm been mocking the 9 body 1 strength troll from the get go, its a terrible rule for the setting. Some 8 foot monster with a 1 strength just doesn't fit, a super skinny and tiny troll is going to be 350 pounds. Like, I get the desire to make all metas viable at all priories. But, this wasn't the way. Personally if you needed to stick with priority I think they should have ditched the meta column. Pick your race, each one has its starting stats and abilities, and different starting Karmas. Like Trolls have 50 starting karma, humans 100. Until they come out with the book with different character creation methods people are kind of stuck with it though. And even after that missions people may be stuck with it for a bit longer.
But grenades are the clear mechanical winner in bad rules.
I pretty much agree to all of that. I get what they were going for, and it's not a bad idea, it just would have benefited from a more sensical implementation.
-
I have decided to run Fat Larry for my first character because the build/rp elements just amuse me so much. This is the final version I'm going to go with once Minotaur's are released into the wild, with the possibility of switching the Con Specialization to Disguise for keeping the GelWeave in the Security Armor better hidden. Need to spend about 17k more money though, and nothing jumps out to me as a particularly awesome idea. Any thoughts?
Fat Larry
Priorities:
Attributes A (24 points)
Metatype B (Minotaur, 11 points)
Skills C (20 points)
Magic D (Adept, 1 Magic)
Resources E (8,000Y)
Attributes:
Body 11 (15)
Agility 1
Reaction 1
Strength 1
Willpower 6
Logic 5
Intuition 6
Charisma 4
Edge 4
Essence 3.07
Magic 3
Derived Attributes:
Composure: 10
Judge Intentions: 12
Memory: 11
Initiative/Actions: 7 + 1d6/1 Major, 2 Minor
Condition Monitor (P/S): 16/11
Defense Rating: 21 (14 if only in Armante Suit)
Defense Test: 13
Damage Resistance Test: 15 (w/all incoming DV -5; reduce damage taken after test by 1, minimum 1)
Movement: 10/15/+1 (8/11/+1 in Security Armor)
Skills:
Athletics 7 ( 8 ) (Archery +2)
Con 5 (Fast Talk+2)
Influence 5 (Negotiation +2)
Perception 3
Qualities:
Aptitude (Athletics), -12 Karma
Built Tough 2, free
Exceptional Attribute (Body), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Intuition), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Willpower), -12 Karma
Goring Horns, free
Thermographic Vision, free
Allergy (Soy, Extreme), +20 Karma
Stolen Gear, +20 Karma
Adept Powers:
Combat Sense 6
Ware: (Essence -2.93, 93,390Y)
Bone Density Augmentation (Alphaware; Essence -0.96, 26,400Y)
Pain Editor (Used; Essence -0.33, 26,400Y)
Platelet Factories (Used; Essence -0.22, 9,350Y)
Reflex Recorder (Athletics) (Essence -0.1, 15,400Y)
Toxin Extractor 6 (Used; Essence -1.32, 15,840Y)
Gear: (34,760Y)
Commlink, Erika Elite (2,750Y)
Credstick, Platinum (550Y)
Fake SIN, rating 6 (16,500Y)
Armor License, rating 6 (1,320Y)
Bow Hunting License, rating 6 (1,320Y)
Grenade License, rating 6 (1,320Y)
Skilled Trade License (Pharmacist, Drugs and Toxins), rating 6 (1,320Y)
Weapon Modification License, rating 6 (1,320Y)
Jazz x20 (1,650Y)
Psyche x20 (4,400Y)
Trenchcoat (110Y)
Lifestyle, Low (1 month; 2,200Y)
22,056Y
Armor: (50,490Y)
Armante Suit (5,500Y)
Helmet (3,740Y)
Sensors: Single Sensor (Ultrasound)
Visual Enhancements: Flare Compensation, Smartlink, Vision Magnification, Ultrasound Link
Securetech Invisi-Shield Armor (5,500Y)
Security Armor (35,750Y)
Modifications: GelWeave 4
Weapons: (7,304Y)
Collapsible Heavy Crossbow (2,354Y)
Accessories: Periscope, Tactical Sling
Modificiations: Foregrip, Heavyweight, Internal Smartgun System, Nanoconstruction, Personalized Grip
Injection Bolt w/dose of Nacrojet x20 (2,200Y)
Krime Stinger Grenade x20 (2,750Y)
Combat:
Collapsible Crossbow (w/20 injection bolts filled with Nacroject) [Bow, DV 4P plus Nacroject, 4/15/12/8/-]; 11 dice + Wild Die to hit
20 x Krime Stinger Grenades [DV 16S/12S/8S, Blast 20m, 2/1/0/-/-]; 9 dice to hit
Karma:
+45 Base (Minotaurs lose 5)
+40 Negative Qualities
-48 Positive Qualities
-20 Nuyen
-5 Athletics Specialization
-5 Con Specialization
-5 Influence Specialization
2 remaining
Build Features:
So security armor with GelWeave provides you an amazing -5 vs. all incoming DV. Unfortunately, when GelWeave is used for this purpose it reduces your Agility, Reaction, and Movement by several points for 3 full rounds after the last hit. When one of those is reduce to 0, you gain the Immobilized status. . .which humorously enough does not prevent you from making Dodge Tests, it just eliminates your ability to add Reaction to that test.
So we compensate for that by expecting to get Immobilized, totally dumping Agility and Reaction as a result, but buying a ludicrous amount of Combat Sense to still be able to dodge well. With an automatic -5 off the DV of incoming attacks and 15 soak dice, even grenades start to look less imposing.
While Immobilized, you're going to have 0 Agility and a further -3 on all attack rolls, which currently leaves us with a mediocre 7 + 1 Wild Die for the bow, and 5 dice for grenades. Make liberal use of Edge to manipulate that Wild Die for best results.
Late game, your Combat Sense will be so high that pretty much any attack that allows a Defense Test is going to miss, so the nemesis inflicting Immobilized will only be explosives and indirect combat spells typically. You're attack pools will also be substantially higher even when Immobilized, so the penalty will be less impactful.
You're going to start every Mission down 4 P and S CM, due to Stolen Gear. As for the S portion of that, you can flat out buy it off after an hour of game time, so it is essentially negligible the majority of the time. Being down 4 P still leaves you with 12, which is plenty due to how much incoming DV you reduce. It will also be fully healed after an evenings rest, which happens in a good 50% or more of Missions.
Wear the Armante Suit to negotiate with Mr. Johnson if you are the face, and when you need to wear the Security Armor, you have 9 dice in your Con (disguise) pool. Use that, with the +2 concealability of all items under a trenchcoat to do everything in your power to obfuscate the illegal GelWeave component of the armor.
Finally, it also works decently as a back up face, and drugs drugs drugs! If you are not on Jazz and Psyche at all times, it's being done wrong, and Fat Larry is a little less jolly! Situational (read: any time it's go time) use of Jazz and Psyche will take your Initiative to a decent Initiative/Actions: 10 + 3d6/1 Major, 4 Minor, and add 3 more dice to Defense Tests and 1 dice to Logic tests to resist Illusion Spells, Manipulation Spells, and several critter powers.
What to do with that leftover Nuyen:
- Carry over 5,000 to play.
- Ask your GM how much a day's supply of real food will cost, and buy a month's worth to last you until the High Lifestyle change (I personally think 100Y/day is reasonable for a Troll with an appetite who will share the goods a little).
- Buy 20 frag grenades if you are playing Seattle Season (availability too high for Neo-Tokyo with setting adjustments).
- Consider buying a few doses of Nitro so you can boost your Willpower to 9 if the Mage threats start running high.
Advancement Path:
A full Missions season (12 SRMs, 8 CMPs, 2 PMs) will net ballpark around 150 karma and 264,000Y, before adjustments for Working for the Man or People. We'll also be down 110,000Y to maintain that High Lifestyle for maximum amusement, and to avoid soy food at all costs! Fat Larry only eats real meats (tm), son!
Use 150 Karma to get to Magic 6, Initiate Grade 6, and buy Improved Ability (Athletics) 3 and Combat Sense 18. Use another 10 Karma for Athletics Expertise (Bows) and Specialization (Throwing). If enough Karma remains, raise Athletics to 8, otherwise keep the remaining to bolster other areas with foci.
Money is pretty much a straight shot in either an armorer or decker contact to find you a suit of Heavy MilSpec with GelWeave 4 and Tough Weave 2. The armor alone will run you 77,000Y, before factoring in what you have to spend on Contacts to locate it, which is very likely to push the overall cost in the double territory.
Once done, and while Immobilized, you will have 24 defense dice (lol while stuck to the ground), and reduce all incoming DV by a massive -9 (3 from Heavy MilSpec, 4 from GelWeave, 2 from Tough Weave) before you even factor in your 15 soak dice and reducing anything that actually gets through by 1 (min 1) from Platelet Factories. Your crossbow attack will have 11 + Wild Die while Immobilized (14 + Wild Die while not Immobilized, which should be most of the time now), and grenades 10 dice while Immobilized (14 while not Immobilized).
Personality:
Fat Larry is incredibly fat and extremely jolly. He's always laughing, even at his own misfortune. Whether it is a good outlook on life or faking it to make it, not even Larry is sure!
Fat Larry has a devestating allergy to soy, which almost all food is made of, so he has worked hard to attain a lifestyle that allows him to eat actual real food. Despite his lifestyle, his pad is not particularly impressive, due to the oppressive costs of having a personal chef with real food on hand at all times. Lucky for you though, Fat Larry loves to share!
Fat Larry also routinely shows up to every meet and gathering with an assortment of bruises, most often a black eye, noticeable limp, and two pieces of tissue stuffed up each bloodied nostril. Man those guys really want their stuff back, but that won't stop Fat Larry from leaving the house and enjoying life! Besides, he already ate those truffles. . .
-
Honda Spirit. Big guy in a little car is always good for a chuckle.
-
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/33/58/7b/33587b77a08e14991ae57ff8d23450cb.jpg)
-
I love it! And it is going to be even funnier, because his Reaction is so bad that he will literally have no dice pool to drive with unless high on Jazz while driving.
Perfection.
-
Bah, few people in the Sixth World even know how to drive anyway. That's what autopilots are for.
-
That is true, but depressing!
Probably short life span for relevancy anyhow. I would imagine that High Lifestyle characters get someone to drive them in something nice when they wish anyhow.
-
Actually I noticed something else WRT Stolen Gear.
It caps you out at +150,000 nuyen. So if you gain +20 karma from Stolen Gear, you're still only allowed to spend 15 karma on extra resources... and you "have" to spend the remaining 5 elsewhere to avoid breaking the cap.
-
I presumed that was an error otherwise the quality would only go to 15 points. Personally this build would work better with the additional five karma anyhow, but worth a clarification.
-
I presumed that was an error otherwise the quality would only go to 15 points. Personally this build would work better with the additional five karma anyhow, but worth a clarification.
I wondered a while why the book says the limit is 150,000... but it's as clear as clear can be*, despite having otherwise having had the potential to gain 200,000 nuyen by spending 20 karma.
But this (and other) characters helped me see an epiphany. Nothing's stopping you from spending, say, 70 karma on resources at 5,000 per karma point at the In Debt rate (compared to 2,000 per point at the default rate!)... if you had that much karma available. Without this cap of +150,000 nuyen when you take Stolen Gear, spending 70 karma at double the CRB rate would get UBER STOOPID.
*well, the cap is "clear as clear can be" at any rate. How you'd ever end up in the 16-20 bucket when you can only spend 15 karma is whats by RAW problematic... but easily enough dealt with (until such time it can be erratad) as to read the chart as MEANING to say how much karma you gained, rather than spent. Or... if you REALLY wanna do mental gymnastics... "spending" negative karma IS gaining karma!
-
Was there no defined limit in the CRB? I can't access the book at the moment but my memory is telling me there was a 20 point conversion limit. If that is not the case then I completely agree.
-
Was there no defined limit in the CRB? I can't access the book at the moment but my memory is telling me there was a 20 point conversion limit. If that is not the case then I completely agree.
Nope, no limit is stated in the CRB. Throw it all at resources if you really want to. Stolen gear does stop you from doing that, though.
Edit: reviewed the wording on In Debt. Even that won't prohibit you from just taking +20 karma in other negative qualities, as it itself has a karma award of 0. So 70 karma @ In Debt can potentially give you +350,000 nuyen, if you REALLY wanted that bonus money.
-
Got it. Either way, as you said though, the quality is clearly written. Knowing there is no cap does make walk back thinking the printing was likely in error, so I agree with your analysis.
-
Ah, this is why I had 20 in mind. The second paragraph itself is directly contradictory with its own rules.
"The player and gamemaster must decide on the exact details, but the benefit is that for each point of Karma (up to 20) spent on Stolen Gear, the character gets 10,000 nuyen (see below) to spend on gear, cyberware, and/or bioware during character creation. These points are spent instead of the normal Karma for extra cash (not in addition to), and extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥."
This vexed me last night because I knew I read everything carefully before I made and posted the build.
Edit: In further thought, the line "extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥" almost reads to me like "extend the possible additional funds you would normally get without this quality from 20 Karma into Nuyen by 150k with the quality", but that math would still be off by 10k. Perhaps they were playing around with 2,500/karma at some point, or the author/editor thought it was 2,500.
-
Ah, this is why I had 20 in mind. The second paragraph itself is directly contradictory with its own rules.
"The player and gamemaster must decide on the exact details, but the benefit is that for each point of Karma (up to 20) spent on Stolen Gear, the character gets 10,000 nuyen (see below) to spend on gear, cyberware, and/or bioware during character creation. These points are spent instead of the normal Karma for extra cash (not in addition to), and extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥."
This vexed me last night because I knew I read everything carefully before I made and posted the build.
Edit: In further thought, the line "extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥" almost reads to me like "extend the possible additional funds you would normally get without this quality from 20 Karma into Nuyen by 150k with the quality", but that math would still be off by 10k. Perhaps they were playing around with 2,500/karma at some point, or the author/editor thought it was 2,500.
STOLEN GEAR
(NEGATIVE QUALITY)
BONUS: 1 TO 20 KARMA
and
"...but the benefit is that for each
point of Karma (up to 20)...."
And the table on the next page.
are in agreement.
This statement "...and extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥." contradicts the other three. The simple fix is to correct 150,000¥ to 200,000¥. Or remove the last entry on the table, and correct the other two statements to a max of 15 Bonus Karma.
Or ban the silly thing because it's completely asinine as every character should be taking it. Even I feel dirty taking it. That has to mean it's a problem. ;D
-
Yeah. I knew there was a reason I believed 200k limit was the only legitimate way to understand the quality, but I couldn't remember why when I responded to SSDR last night and wasn't going to load up the computer just to check at that hour. Really I am good with either interpretation, it just needs to be made clear. The wording right now is contradictory.
Regarding a ban I have mixed feelings about the quality. On the one hand all that extra money is leaning towards too good, but being down health boxes of damage is potentially disastrous. The quality won't seem too good when you get a hit that forces you to burn Edge to survive because you were down those 4 CM.
Banning stuff from organized play should be an absolute last resort too from a company stand point, since you kind of want to be using the play to promote product sales.
-
Ah, this is why I had 20 in mind. The second paragraph itself is directly contradictory with its own rules.
"The player and gamemaster must decide on the exact details, but the benefit is that for each point of Karma (up to 20) spent on Stolen Gear, the character gets 10,000 nuyen (see below) to spend on gear, cyberware, and/or bioware during character creation. These points are spent instead of the normal Karma for extra cash (not in addition to), and extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥."
This vexed me last night because I knew I read everything carefully before I made and posted the build.
Edit: In further thought, the line "extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥" almost reads to me like "extend the possible additional funds you would normally get without this quality from 20 Karma into Nuyen by 150k with the quality", but that math would still be off by 10k. Perhaps they were playing around with 2,500/karma at some point, or the author/editor thought it was 2,500.
That's what i thought they meant. Like normally you could exchange karma for cash up to 50k, but you could go up to 20k with stolen a 150k difference. But the math was still a bit off. But bad math is normal for them so to me that is still the most likely choice. So if you go with stolen gear you do not spend normal karma for cash in char gen. This makes more sense to me than the out right contradictory 20 points at 10k, a chart showing 200k, and saying the max is 150k.
-
When every character is simply better off taking the quality, it's too good. 200K Nuyen on a starting character is somewhere between C and B Priority. So, 10 Metahuman Adjustment points, or 14 Attribute points or 22 Skill points....? If there were qualities out there that did that, they would never make it to a Missions table.
And at lower values it's trivial to manage the downside and it's flat out superior return compared to In Debt. Mechanically, characters should really never take In Debit if Stolen Gear is an option. And should probably never spend Karma on Nuyen.
Obviously I'm all for rewarding system mastery but this particular quality basically lets you play Sum to 12 when everyone else is playing Sum to 10. There isn't another quality even in shouting distance.
-
Ah, this is why I had 20 in mind. The second paragraph itself is directly contradictory with its own rules.
"The player and gamemaster must decide on the exact details, but the benefit is that for each point of Karma (up to 20) spent on Stolen Gear, the character gets 10,000 nuyen (see below) to spend on gear, cyberware, and/or bioware during character creation. These points are spent instead of the normal Karma for extra cash (not in addition to), and extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥."
This vexed me last night because I knew I read everything carefully before I made and posted the build.
Edit: In further thought, the line "extend the possible additional funds to 150,000¥" almost reads to me like "extend the possible additional funds you would normally get without this quality from 20 Karma into Nuyen by 150k with the quality", but that math would still be off by 10k. Perhaps they were playing around with 2,500/karma at some point, or the author/editor thought it was 2,500.
That's what i thought they meant. Like normally you could exchange karma for cash up to 50k, but you could go up to 20k with stolen a 150k difference. But the math was still a bit off. But bad math is normal for them so to me that is still the most likely choice. So if you go with stolen gear you do not spend normal karma for cash in char gen. This makes more sense to me than the out right contradictory 20 points at 10k, a chart showing 200k, and saying the max is 150k.
The Karma value of the Negative Quality needs to be directly related to the amount of Nuyen gained. Otherwise you can take a 1 point Negative quality to gain 150K Nuyen that you then pay off with 2 karma on your first Mission. 150K Nuyen for 16 net Karma (15 for Nuyen, -1 for the Negative quality, 2 spend to buy it off) is not likely intended, and would not work like any other quality in the game. The Bonus Karma, the Nuyen and the result on the Table all need to be directly linked otherwise it's an even more exploitable quality.
I mean it's already like an Orphan in front of a factory in 1900, no need to make it worse.
-
I don't think anyone was saying 1 karma gets you 150k, its 1 per 10k, up to 200k. But it seems to say if you go this route you can't spend karma for nuyen normally. It is probably too good which is why so many builds are showing it. but i can think a couple other almost always qualities as well. Whether that is because of them being too good, other qualities being really bad, not enough options its hard to say this early in the game.
One additional oddity and this is just a oddity it doesn't really matter, is that the bounty on you seems to equal the amount stolen, which is just bad math on the people with a vendettas part. I get sending a message but why spend the amount you lost when you likely aren't even retrieving it. I kind of think the bounty just shouldn't be there at all. just know they are sending goons to get you.
-
But bad math is normal for them
Truer words were never spoken, my friend.
This makes more sense to me than the out right contradictory 20 points at 10k, a chart showing 200k, and saying the max is 150k
Well the chart says it is the size of the bounty on your head, not how much money you got/stole. Minor detail though, as the rest still lines up.
When every character is simply better off taking the quality, it's too good. 200K Nuyen on a starting character is somewhere between C and B Priority. So, 10 Metahuman Adjustment points, or 14 Attribute points or 22 Skill points....? If there were qualities out there that did that, they would never make it to a Missions table.
And at lower values it's trivial to manage the downside and it's flat out superior return compared to In Debt. Mechanically, characters should really never take In Debit if Stolen Gear is an option. And should probably never spend Karma on Nuyen.
Obviously I'm all for rewarding system mastery but this particular quality basically lets you play Sum to 12 when everyone else is playing Sum to 10. There isn't another quality even in shouting distance.
You're not wrong man. I agree that for the most part it is so good it's a must take. It's hardly the only quality that applies to though. If we are being completely blunt many of them are not balanced well for cost vs. effect of other comparable qualities.