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Dunkelzahn and Hestaby

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SoyCaf

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« Reply #60 on: <08-18-13/0142:55> »
IEs and Dragons are immune to pathogens. There's why they don't ever end up sucking blood. Doesn't mean they made any one virus digital or not. Metahumans are more like little kids who don't know how to take care of themselves to most dragons. Dragons have a culture to keep their poop in a group. Same can't be said for everyone else. Blame your mages.








« Last Edit: <08-18-13/0151:34> by SoyCaf »

Red Canti

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« Reply #61 on: <08-18-13/1500:40> »
It's a bad idea, because it's pretty damn unlikely Metahumanity will take it lying down.

In the 4th age, the Dragons probably could've kept that rebellion down. But they're not in the 4th Age anymore. As powerful as the Greats are, they're not gonna be sitting pretty at the end of that fight. This is something that I like to think Ghostwalker, Hestaby, Dunkelzahn and Sirrurg understand.

Only if metahumanity knew it was happening. Dragons have major influence in 4/10 of the big 10, and enough clout and wealth that they could easily get on the board of any mega they wished (except Aztechnology). It wouldn't take much to keep metahumanity at large in the dark. Gaining control over news outlets, controlling the flow of information, etc. Remember, dragons play the long game. If they put forth all their effort to remain covert about things, it is uncertain whether even the shadows would know something was coming.
To remain covert. About removing a person's ability to feel anger, pain and bitterness. In a world where people literally charge for the air you breathe.

I don't want to accuse you of being ridiculous. But you're not making it easy here. Long Game or not, this is not the kind of thing that can be kept under wraps. Especially not from the Shadows.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. But you can't fool all 700,000,000 of the people all of the time.
« Last Edit: <08-18-13/1515:55> by Red Canti »
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #62 on: <08-18-13/1534:47> »
The only reason the anti-dragon chemical won't be widely stolen and spread around, is that it tends to completely drive metahumans bonkers on contact, they go absolutely psycho. It might even be involved in Lockdown.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

IKerensky

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« Reply #63 on: <08-18-13/1653:57> »
How long to keep something secret to 700 millions persons or the Shadows ?

Very long. How many people know of the Immortals Elfs ? Of what was really implied in Big D death ?

How many people really known about the Universal Brotherhood until the very last time ?

I have to disagree with you because history told us that it isn't really much difficult to hide something or lie to several billions people than to one person. In fact it is often easier to convince several people because conformism and group mechanism will made it difficult for doubter.

For how long did Church manage to have people convinced that Earth is flat while mathematicien and historiant knowed it was round since several century BC.

Red Canti

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« Reply #64 on: <08-18-13/1710:53> »
Knowledge and the distribution thereof was treated differently in that era. Not like how it is in the modern days and certainly not in the Shadows.

They can fool some of the people, but not all of them. And not enough to keep the rest from doing something about it.
« Last Edit: <08-18-13/1718:51> by Red Canti »
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Nath

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« Reply #65 on: <08-18-13/1729:12> »
For how long did Church manage to have people convinced that Earth is flat while mathematicien and historiant knowed it was round since several century BC.
I don't know, but we've been convinced that people of the Middle Ages were convinced the Earth is flat for some time now.

Daen82

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« Reply #66 on: <08-18-13/2035:09> »
Knowledge and the distribution thereof was treated differently in that era. Not like how it is in the modern days and certainly not in the Shadows.

They can fool some of the people, but not all of them. And not enough to keep the rest from doing something about it.

In Shadowrun, things remain "somewhat" secret at best. Or so I think.

There is a certain desolation in the world, with all the oppressing, beyond-reach powers-that-be such as megacorps and dragons and violent consumerism. It leads some people to seek comfort in either knowing all tidbits of info behind the scenes (such as the average shadowlands type), while some others simply prefer to remain doped on the ignorance and plastic paradise under their best wage-slave's capabilities.

Therefore it should be extremely hard to keep anything an absolute secret for too long; but incredibly easy to manipulate people into resignation or just coping with whatever it is, by said powers that be.
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IKerensky

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« Reply #67 on: <08-19-13/0947:36> »
If we consider that the vast majority of Earth 2075 population is either : un-educated or educated by corporated run university since 50 years I think that there is a lot of things that are prone to believe that the tiny part of the population living in the Shadows and thinking for themselfs would know.

Look at recent history, WWII era by example. China teach a very different story than the rest of the world and chinese population in their majority believe it. If you asked people about WW2 they will re-hearse things they learned in school and that we know now were false, especially about the german being stopped by the snow in the East, or the reality of their attemps to land in Britain. People know about Stalingrad/Uranus but the majority dont know if was a secundary operation and not the main russian offensive.

Ask an american about WWI and he will tell you they come liberate France and Britain from Germany and think they were the savior, while the situation in WWI was totally different.

How many people know what really happened during Cuba Missile Crisis ? How many people really understand how the internet work ? or what is the Internet...

You can easily hide something from billions, just give them a credible story, someone to hate and something other to really care for (feeding, surviving, sports, porn...).

Look at how the Universal Brotherhood successfully manage to quiet every attempt to reveal the truth to the masses, even when proofs or even videos footage were provided.

People WANT to believe in benevolent Grand Dragon because it is a conforting thought. Heck, they VOTE for Big D ticket afterall.

SR population is immersed in publicity, entertainment and propagand. I am convinced you can make them believe about anything... just ask Horizon.

Red Canti

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« Reply #68 on: <08-20-13/0635:53> »
There are limits to how much bullshit you can make a given population swallow. And if you think those limits don't stop long before you get to mentally reprogramming them to not feel anger, you are on crazy pills.
"Always Trust Mr. Johnson, always. Just make sure he knows he'd regret betraying that trust."

IKerensky

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« Reply #69 on: <08-20-13/1104:51> »
And if you think that there is limit on how many bullshit you can make a community swallow I think I know someone that have a bridge to sell you. The question is not how much or what you make them swallow, it is how fast you do it, how you do it and with what budget you do it.

Politicians manage to trick their whole population into making decisions that aren't beneficial for them all the time, the only thing you had to do is to make it believable. Agro-Alimentarian, Tobbacco, Alcohol; Nuclear and a lot of other industry keep make people swallow junk without them even noticing or even caring because they know exactly how to sell their junk and how to quiet the opposition.

Simple solution for dragon to do :
  - Propagate a new virus (lets call it VITAS III).
  - Have the governement and corporation unite to come to a miracle cure and vaccination.
  - Distribute the vaccination.

Of course there is a catch : The vaccin also contain nanobot that reprogram the behaviour. Result : all the meta-humanity is quickly reprogrammed, thoses that aren't are exterminated by the virus. Thoses that are reprogrammed doesnt even notice it because : 1- everybody else alive behave like them so everything is fine, 2- Massive propaganda and Matrix/Trideo brainwashing to help the transition, 3- Vaccine is said to have side effect that make the patient droosy for a few days.

Now, not only the Dragon have re-programmed the whole meta-humanity (less the population that is prone to resist them wich die because of the virus) but population thanks them for that and see them as saviour.

Mirikon

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« Reply #70 on: <08-20-13/1520:04> »
Your problem, Canti, is that you're thinking in a scale of months or years. The plots of dragons can unfold over generations of metahumans. Sure, you won't get people to accept something truly horrible all at once. But then, the Shadowrun world didn't get to the level of nasty its at now all at once, either. What do you think a campaign of subversion and propaganda lasting a hundred years, kept unified by being under the same leadership all that time, with the wealth and power dragons possess (including the largest megacorp in the world) would be able to convince people of? And at the same time, what if you slip the building blocks of your reprogramming into the soy food plants, so that they build up in the body over time. Maybe they don't even have any noticeable effects on the current generation, but their kids have been altered on the genetic level, made to be more pliable to draconic commands. You don't make use of it, beyond a test case or two, so it doesn't get out that things are changing. Anyone who sees the genetic drift can be 'convinced' that it was due to poor living conditions, poor nutrition, etc. Three, four generations in, you've got yourself an army just waiting for the switch to be thrown.
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Red Canti

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« Reply #71 on: <08-20-13/1549:44> »
My problem, Mirikon is that I surround myself with defeatists, cowards and bootlickers and try to convince them that people typically have the ability to observe things and the backbone to do something about them.

You are not going to fluoridate humanity into being brainless stormtroopers without people noticing and you're certainly not going to prevent them for doing something about it. It only takes one crack, and you're at risk for 700,000,000 every single day for the next year, decade, century, millennium.
« Last Edit: <08-20-13/1553:38> by Red Canti »
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Mirikon

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« Reply #72 on: <08-20-13/1609:59> »
Really? Even today, people are well on their way to being easily controlled. The secret is to do it by degrees, so that people never notice the change. And if you can make anyone who might start crying foul into part of the Tin Foil Hat Brigade, then how easily will they get people to resist you? As far as brainwashing goes, you see it in plenty of places on a national/regional scale. To use a simple example from the US, I give you the Tea Party. But because there is no leader in charge, no one directing the narrative, you lose steam, and much of its power is wasted. Likewise, because the people in charge are only looking to two years from now at most, the lack of a long game hampers them. Dragons would not have either of those problems. And they have wealth and power to push aside many of those who would oppose them, or to marginalize them and make them into convenient pawns to further drive people into their net. This is, afterall, the methodology they described in Conspiracy Theories, you know?

Furthermore, you don't run it as one big organization (SK pushes something, Neo-NET and Aztechnology will resist on principle). No, you go through multiple shells and fronts, using dupes who may not even know that they are being controlled. In one place, you might insert someone in a Mothers of Metahumans clinic. In another, you might infiltrate Alamos 20K. You may use a number of A and AA corps (or even unrated local corps) to hide the trails. Lofwyr, for one, has already shown he can do this with the best of them. Dunkelzhan was a master as well. For the common man, it doesn't matter who actually calls the shots, they recognize the name on the door, and often don't even bother to look at who is behind it.
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Red Canti

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« Reply #73 on: <08-20-13/1611:59> »
And if you think that there is limit on how many bullshit you can make a community swallow I think I know someone that have a bridge to sell you. The question is not how much or what you make them swallow, it is how fast you do it, how you do it and with what budget you do it.

Politicians manage to trick their whole population into making decisions that aren't beneficial for them all the time, the only thing you had to do is to make it believable. Agro-Alimentarian, Tobbacco, Alcohol; Nuclear and a lot of other industry keep make people swallow junk without them even noticing or even caring because they know exactly how to sell their junk and how to quiet the opposition.
Liquor and Tobacco doesn't completely strip an entire set of emotions away from you.
I think you are ALL making hilarious efforts to downplay how disturbed and outraged you would be if you found out someone was attempting to do this to you.


Quote
Simple solution for dragon to do :
  - Propagate a new virus (lets call it VITAS III).
  - Have the governement and corporation unite to come to a miracle cure and vaccination.
  - Distribute the vaccination.

Of course there is a catch : The vaccin also contain nanobot that reprogram the behaviour. Result : all the meta-humanity is quickly reprogrammed, thoses that aren't are exterminated by the virus. Thoses that are reprogrammed doesnt even notice it because : 1- everybody else alive behave like them so everything is fine, 2- Massive propaganda and Matrix/Trideo brainwashing to help the transition, 3- Vaccine is said to have side effect that make the patient droosy for a few days.

Now, not only the Dragon have re-programmed the whole meta-humanity (less the population that is prone to resist them wich die because of the virus) but population thanks them for that and see them as saviour.
I think that was a strategy Sun Tzu talked about in Art of War. I have to admit it's very effective, especially as there aren't any members of humanity who could notice that there are machines being put into people's bodies.

Oh right. Except that entire branch of Metahumanity that can do that, AND tell the little fuckers to self terminate. Or worse, alter the programming. Suddenly, they're not answering to Dragons. But to someone who's going to be remembered as the scariest Technomancer in the Sixth World.
"Always Trust Mr. Johnson, always. Just make sure he knows he'd regret betraying that trust."

Red Canti

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« Reply #74 on: <08-20-13/1628:43> »
"Always Trust Mr. Johnson, always. Just make sure he knows he'd regret betraying that trust."