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Help for sidelined players

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Bradd

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« on: <12-12-10/2223:08> »
My gamers are accustomed to RPGs like D&D, where the PCs rarely split up, and everyone usually has something important to do. Most of the PCs are heavily specialized, with at least one or two major skill gaps. Some of them deal with it better than others. The face has crap for combat skills, but he usually finds other ways to help out during a fight. The troll tank has it a lot worse. He's great at soaking gunfire and punching things to death, but he's also Uncouth and has no real Matrix ability, not even an agent. He's a lot of fun when he has stuff to do, but he ended up sitting out for nearly all of our session yesterday.

In retrospect, it occurs to me that I probably should have offered to let him run the enemy IC, or something like that. I also could have run a simultaneous scene for the non-Matrix characters, but I'm not comfortable yet improvising that kind of thing.

I could use some tips for how to deal with these split party situations. How do you make them more fun?

FastJack

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« Reply #1 on: <12-12-10/2243:11> »
That's been a question ever since 1st Edition days. Here's some ideas:
  • If the hacker starts going through the system and hits IC, have security guards hit the rest of the team at the same time, forcing them in a position to protect the hacker from getting hit. This really works if the hacker jumps into VR.
  • During Face encounters, give the other players "roles" to play. The Troll meat-shield may be playing the bodyguard roll. Sending out intimidating glares and casing for threats (lots of dice rolls that add to the atmosphere--you could even give bonuses to the Face's rolls based on this).

Bradd

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« Reply #2 on: <12-12-10/2330:29> »
Good ideas, especially the watchful bodyguard bit. I've been trying to encourage stuff like this (as well as diversifying skills & gear so that they're better at supporting roles when they can't avoid it). Some problems I'm encountering:

The hackers are too good at not getting caught. Without cheating, I'd have a hard time justifying a security response quickly enough to let the non-matrix characters participate in the same scene. In a followup scene, sure, but finishing up the current scene might take an hour or two. It'd be better if I had more ways to involve them at the same time.

The team's ginsu girl usually takes bodyguard roles. She's perfect for the job you describe: intimidating and observant, but graceful and chic enough to fit into any situation. In contrast, the tank often has strict orders to wait outside as backup muscle, because he's Uncouth and accident-prone. He's just a bit too much of a liability to take even a limited social role.

FastJack

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« Reply #3 on: <12-12-10/2347:55> »
It's going to be a problem. The tank has set himself up to be locked out of social situations, so he has to understand if the others want to sideline him during those encounters.

A better idea than trying to make sure they play more parts in the other situations is to instead build situations where they can really shine and the others have to take a back seat. Think of stuff like Arnold in Terminator 2/3. Security's surrounding the building, but the rest of the team is holed up trying to accomplish the mission and hold off the first security team. Time to send the tank to make sure they have an escape route.

CaptRory

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« Reply #4 on: <12-13-10/0013:04> »
I'd give the Troll the chance to pay off some of his defects, or at least Uncouth. If he's been interacting with people even if its only the party you could rationalize the drop of such a penalty. No reason to keep punishing the group and the player for a mistake in character creation. And even if he's a stickler for roleplay its easy enough to work in him getting rid of that defect.

Bradd

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« Reply #5 on: <12-13-10/0024:46> »
@FastJack: I totally agree, that's a viable solution too. However, I don't like to leave players in the back seat for long. Most of what goes on in RPGs just isn't that fun to watch as an audience. There are exceptions, sure, but I personally don't have the patience to wait while somebody plays out a 1-2 hour fight or hack. Not many people have the acting skills to make it work for social scenes, either.

I think the general solution is thus:
  • Find ways to get keep players involved in secondary roles or concurrent scenes.
  • Keep scenes short, so that sidelined players can jump back in faster.
  • Make the game more appealing to "audience" players.

The first one is tough, because the players have locked themselves out of some types of scenes, and I haven't mastered how to do the "meanwhile!" thing. The second one is tough, because even after months of practice, dice-heavy stuff like fights and hacking take us 1-2 hours to resolve.

If I get a chance, I'll talk to the troll's player about buying off Uncouth (or tweaking the character; we're liberal about re-rolls). He's not the only one with the issue though, it was just especially blatant yesterday because he got left behind in hacking and social.

Kot

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« Reply #6 on: <12-13-10/0333:16> »
Even an Uncouth troll in full battlegear and with a Panther cannon has an easy time Intimidating a bunch of gangers. He could easily play that card.
As a GM, i'd let the player do that, and use the 'scary troll' way of working with people, getting bonus dice for roleplaying it(and waving that Panther around). It should be fun for the whole group (GM included - playing gangers scared shitless is fun).

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Find ways to get keep players involved in secondary roles or concurrent scenes.
Good advice. If the Hacker/Technomancer/Rigger gets into VR, let the other players help him with their commlinks and AR. Even Computer, Data Search or simple program rolls could benefit the hacker, and give the rest of players a sense of accomplishment. Hell, they could even save the hacker's virtual butt in the process, or provide multiple diversions with disposable commlinks. Or you could just make the other players carry their team hacker around to avoid detection. Hilarity ensues, when the codeslinger wakes up stuffed in a supply closet with the troll tank.

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Keep scenes short, so that sidelined players can jump back in faster.
I agree. Jumping from player to player is tough work for the GM, but worth it. You could always sketch the layout, and use colored dice, counters, or such, to show their position, with the hacker being on the same level (but for example, having two counters, blue and opaque, representing his meat, and matrix body), but operating on a different, wireless 'plane'. It gives the group a (false) sense, that he's still there, and dulls the game breakup a bit.
Also, short scenes in which you describe how the facility looks inside, and what happens there (like that patrol going by, unaware of the players being there, just at arms reach, or the late-working corp worker chica, who leaves one of the rooms obviously straightening up her clothes and smiling, just before a sec guard who's trying desperatly to put on his armor, and explain what the hell he's doing away from his post to his commander through the mic; you can always use these to give them a clue or two how to work the security system, for example, or illustrate the Proffesional Level of a sec. force)

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Make the game more appealing to "audience" players.
What i wrote above, spiced with a personal flavor. While the hacker and mage both leave their meat bodies, let the rest of the team do something significant, something that they'd both be slightly dissapointed to miss. But not enough to be unhappy - just the same way that the others feel, when they are left out of the Matrix/Magic biz. This way you show, that everyone has their thing. And that's the other line. That dwarf samurai who loves to tinker with guns can find a small workshop for advanced guns, and convince the others to check it out. The Adept can find another Adept, a sec. force guy, who'd engage him in a 'duel', keeping his mouth shut after being defeated in a honorable way (because of his code). Or the Rigger can use a few cleaning drones for infiltration, along with the team's sneak. And you can always use the 'face in disguise' trick. That one never gets old.

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The second one is tough, because even after months of practice, dice-heavy stuff like fights and hacking take us 1-2 hours to resolve.
There's only one way to fight that. If rolls bog you down, drop half of them. Use dice pools for successes with an unaware system, or sec force. Buying hits is one of the greatest tools the GM has in SR4 to do that. You don't have to deal with dice that much. And when only one side rolls, it's half the time wasted. I've even noted how many hits NPC's can buy by their stats, just to help with that.

And as for the troll again. He's Uncouth. That means that he's either not a people person, or just doesn't know how to work with them. He can always learn that. Let him save and 'adopt' a street kid (who'll be a great asset to the team, with his knowledge, skills, talent - he can be a fresh Awakened/Technomancer, or just very good with something, like having an Aptitude - or contacts), and learn to interact. Like in those cheesy family movies, where the 'monster' befriend the kid.
The second thing is Uncouth doesn't really leave him out, if he buys those skills. Sure, they'd cost him a lot, but when he has at least one point of each, he'll be a troll that may be a little awkward around people, but can work around that. And there are still emotisofts, and such ('so, that program say she likes me?').

And the most important thing is to talk things over with the player alone, and then again with the group, when you have some issues. You'd be surprised how good that works.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup."

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #7 on: <12-13-10/0520:45> »
Agreed with most of the above, so I won't double up on it too much. I do have a few thoughts on split scenes, though.

1. Cut from one group to another immediately after something major changes but before any dice are rolled (and make a note of what the situation is). When corpsec's backup squad rounds the corner with a Panther canon in tow, cut the scene before anyone gets an action. Right before the negotiation roll for the contract's pay, cut. In the example of your tank, swap from face time to outside the bar. If they're meeting somewhere dodgy, this is a good time to have random and potentially intrusive bad guys show up. Maybe its a street gang, or a couple of drunk Yakuza, whatever. Give Mr. Troll a chance to scare them off before they can cause problems. The bar owner will appreciate it.

2. When you switch scenes, let the other players know they have some time. This is a good time for bathroom breaks, snack runs and/or strategizing. That way they can take care of the non-game stuff during a time when they're not impacting gameplay. As a smoker, I greatly appreciate a break an hour or so where I can be exiled outside without holding up the game.

3. One GM I know even had a set number of "commercial breaks" in his games. Either each player gets one or the party gets a set amount and have to reach a consensus on when to use them. When they call a commercial, play is suspended for five minutes BUT the players can discuss and strategize freely. Anything they come up with is considered universally IC knowledge for the whole party (barring extenuating circumstances). GM's can, of course, call breaks too.

4. Don't combine 1 and 3. If you cut to commercial, come back to the same scene at least long enough to resolve the cliffhanger and start building new tension.

Kot

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« Reply #8 on: <12-13-10/0614:35> »
3. One GM I know even had a set number of "commercial breaks" in his games. Either each player gets one or the party gets a set amount and have to reach a consensus on when to use them. When they call a commercial, play is suspended for five minutes BUT the players can discuss and strategize freely. Anything they come up with is considered universally IC knowledge for the whole party (barring extenuating circumstances). GM's can, of course, call breaks too.
Commercial Break. Good one. I'm going to Palm this one, make and print a few commercials for those ocasions. Will take some work, but it'll be worth it. Good advice, by the way.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup."

Dead Monky

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« Reply #9 on: <12-13-10/1603:05> »
If push comes to shove, let the other players take over some GM characters for a bit.  I've done it and it works fine if you make sure everyone plays their character right.

Bradd

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« Reply #10 on: <12-13-10/1730:34> »
Thanks everyone, this is some great advice.

I have a good idea of how to handle this sort of thing in general, I think. It's just the specifics of the last session that threw me. I wasn't really prepared for an extended hacking session, so I didn't have something interesting to "cut" to in between combat turns. And the social bits were a special case, very high-society and ultra-chic; the ginsu girl bought Japanese Heritage court dress for the occasion, just to play her usual bodyguard rule. The troll wouldn't be such a problem in street meets.

I guess I should prepare some interesting standby encounters to use when I need to have something extra to do. And I'll encourage the troll's player to buy a smidgen of Etiquette, perhaps with a High Society specialization, since it actually comes up pretty often in our group.

Kot

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« Reply #11 on: <12-13-10/1833:11> »
I guess I should prepare some interesting standby encounters to use when I need to have something extra to do. And I'll encourage the troll's player to buy a smidgen of Etiquette, perhaps with a High Society specialization, since it actually comes up pretty often in our group.
Just imagined that kind of troll in a classy smock. Pure fun.

P.S. Oh, and if he has the cyberware for it, you could always slot him an XIX century British gentleman personafix.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup."