Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: lonewolf23k on <11-22-10/1815:58>

Title: Vintage Guns
Post by: lonewolf23k on <11-22-10/1815:58>
As much as I like the guns in the Corebook and the Arsenal sourcebook, I like modern-day guns as well, and was wondering how they would be statted out in Shadowrun.  I can imagine that even with the modern generation of guns available to them in the Sixth World, some gun enthusiasts still like the classics like the Colt Peacemaker or the AK-47.

Has anyone statted out "vintage" guns of our modern era?
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Nomad Zophiel on <11-22-10/1819:06>
A lot of the famous guns of the past have an updated version for Shadowrun. I'd just drop the damage (for the Colt), the accuracy (for the AK) etc by 1. The price on most of them would stay the same, since they're more for collectible value than power. The AK or a Mosin-Nagant you can probably get for the cost of a Stuffer Meal because there's so damn many of them and they last forever.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Dakka on <11-22-10/1839:47>
Is there something the AK-47 needs to be that the AK-97 isn't?
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Chaemera on <11-22-10/1935:35>
Perhaps the Obsolete trait (This Old Drone), Dakka?

To represent an inability to make it work with smart-link and similar upgrades, perhaps?

Just spinning off the top of my head. Frankly, I'm with you, find an equivalent gun, rename it and be really exclusive about buying bullets.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Mystic on <11-23-10/0534:11>
That makes me wonder: what are the quivilent calibers of modern firearms to their Sixth World successors? Would "heavy pistol" ammo be more of a .40, .45, or .375? Or would "light pistol" rounds be like a .38 or 9mm?
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Medicineman on <11-23-10/0629:09>
´@Mystic
Are You shure that you want to open Pandoras Box with this question ?
be sure to wear something Flameresistant

he who dances a Flamenco on top of  Pandoras Box
(to keep it closed)
Medicineman
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Chaemera on <11-23-10/0648:05>
Quote from: Mystic on <11-23-10/0534:11>
That makes me wonder: what are the quivilent calibers of modern firearms to their Sixth World successors? Would "heavy pistol" ammo be more of a .40, .45, or .375? Or would "light pistol" rounds be like a .38 or 9mm?

Leave the lid tight on that box!
Such questions are explicitly ignored in the RAW for a reason. . . (shudders in pained memory of d20 Modern ammo. . .)
If someone wanted a vintage gun, or I put one in for plot reasons, it would require its own, unique, ammo. I'll blame it on changes to smokeless powder in the intervening years and slight changes to caliber that are blessedly not addressed for the regular guns. Then I'd laugh at the look of despair as the players realize they have a gun for which they need to scrounge ammo.

Joins Medicineman. . . Keep that lid down!
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Doc Chaos on <11-23-10/0741:09>
Agreed. I do mention calibers only on rare occations, if I have to make a point, like telling the players the victim was shot with a custom made 30.08 probably from a long range (so they know, sharpshooter who really knows what he's doing). Other than that, stay away from that topic!
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Dead Monky on <11-23-10/1422:30>
Crap.  You want vintage?  Let's cobble together some stats for arquebus, blunderbuses, muskets, and the like.  If you wanted to get really obsessive, you could even toss together some rules for various firing mechanisms too (wheellock, matchlock, snapchance, etc.)  You could jump around a corner at the Corpsec, yell "Have at thee!", then get gunned down because your match went out or your powder got wet.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: FastJack on <11-23-10/1545:03>
Technically the street sweeper is a blunderbus/musket. So you got your basics already.

Oh, and good to see ya back, Monky. Where you been?
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Dead Monky on <11-23-10/1551:24>
Quote from: FastJack on <11-23-10/1545:03>
Technically the street sweeper is a blunderbus/musket. So you got your basics already.
True.  That's likely what I would use as the basis for any I made.  Though working in the various firing mechanisms could be tricky.

Quote
Oh, and good to see ya back, Monky. Where you been?
Thanks.  I've been around.  I just go through cycles where I'll be online a lot then won't touch the net for a while.  And my Arcanum addiction flared a while back.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: FastJack on <11-23-10/1603:53>
Why is it you talk of firing mechanisms and I suddenly picture grenade traps made of slingshots and such in dilapidated old buildings...

Anyway, glad to see you back.

Quote from: Dead Monky on <11-23-10/1551:24>
And my Arcanum addiction flared a while back.
You know they make creams for that. ;D
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Dead Monky on <11-23-10/1610:54>
Quote from: FastJack on <11-23-10/1603:53>
Why is it you talk of firing mechanisms and I suddenly picture grenade traps made of slingshots and such in dilapidated old buildings...
Heh heh.  People need to know what they're in for when they trespass in one of my properties.   ;D

Quote from: Dead Monky on <11-23-10/1551:24>
You know they make creams for that. ;D
Yeah, but I was pretty broke for a while there and couldn't afford them.

Thanks for the welcome back, by the way.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Mystic on <11-24-10/0324:19>
Holy Schnikies!!! What did I do?

It was an idle question for what was a light conversation. I did not know it would cause such an uproar. I know that the SR firearms rules were made specifically to avoid such a headache and am fully against actually TRYING to implement such a thing...just wondering in vague terms, specifically sense we were talking "vintage', if anyone had any thoughts on the matter to further the conversation.

Wow, next time Ill keep my mouth shut.  :o  :-\
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Critias on <11-24-10/0341:19>
Quote from: Mystic on <11-24-10/0324:19>
Holy Schnikies!!! What did I do? It was an idle question for what was a light conversation. I did not know it would cause such an uproar. I know that the firearms rules were made specifically to avoid such a headache and am fully against actually TRYING to implement such a thing...just wondering in vague terms, specifically sense we were talking "vintage', if anyone had any thoughts on the matter to further the conversation.

Wow, next time Ill keep my mouth shut.
Nothing to apologize for, man.  It's just a conversation, man, no big deal.  It's the whole reason we're here, isn't it?

Personally, I enjoy mentioning caliber from time to time in my fiction.  A part of me likes that there aren't necessarily game rules for it, but the real-life shooter in me likes the ability to add some detail to descriptions when I'm writing, so it's not at all uncommon for me to mention gauge or caliber when describing a firearm in fluff/casual writing.

Generally speaking -- and please, this is nothing official, or even anything I always keep consistent with -- I traditionally call most light pistols and some SMGs 9mm.  .45, .40, or 10mm for some of the higher damage code SMGs and most heavy pistols.  .357 is another possibility for a heavy pistol, but the traditionalist in me prefers it for wheelguns over automatics.  Shotguns in my fiction are 12 gauges because they all should be in real life (  ;D ) and when in doubt I describe most assault rifles as .223 or 7.62, just for simplicity's sake, but sometimes I'll sneak in a 6.8.  Anything smaller than a light pistol, or bigger than an assault rifle, you can get a little crazier with it because such "niche" ammo is more likely to vary, in my opinion, than the somewhat standardized stuff in between.  When you get to the more specialized large (or small) rounds, you get some really crazy outliers.  When you're talking about the more moderate and popular stuff in between, there's more standardization in my experience.  .308 is a popular sporting rifle AND sniper rifle round in real life, but other than that you can just have some fun making up a crazy high (or crazy low, for hold-outs) number and runnin' with it.  ;)

They're just vague earmarks that folks might sometimes see me use in my own fiction, many of which are holdovers from SR3, and which are often influenced by whatever gun I'm lusting after in real life at the moment.  Astute readers back when I posted regularly on SL could probably tell what I'd rented at the range, what I'd just bought, or what I wanted to buy, based on what I had some characters use.   ;D 

And there are always exceptions -- weapons with a weird damage code compared to everything else in their class, for instance, or ones that are obviously based on a real-life gun with a strange caliber (like FN's 5.7 rounds) -- and that's where the fun comes in. 

I figure it beats writing something like "With a feral grin, Tyler squeezed the triggers on his matched Ares Predators and sent a hail of Power 9 (Moderate Damage) rounds flying at his would-be assassin," or "The hitman lined up his shot carefully, and felt the sniper rifle buck against his shoulder.  He fought down the recoil with an expert's practiced ease and the rifle's natural balance, and kept his cold-eyed gaze focused through the scope;  his mark's head exploded as he took 8P damage right to his ugly face, and another contract was completed."  ;)
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Doc Chaos on <11-24-10/0424:28>
Quote from: Critias on <11-24-10/0341:19>
It's just a conversation, man, no big deal.  It's the whole reason we're here, isn't it?

WHAT?? Not the flames, rules-lawyering, bitching about product deadlines? Dammit...
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Medicineman on <11-24-10/0447:53>
Quote from: Mystic on <11-24-10/0324:19>
Holy Schnikies!!! What did I do?

It was an idle question for what was a light conversation. I did not know it would cause such an uproar. I know that the SR firearms rules were made specifically to avoid such a headache and am fully against actually TRYING to implement such a thing...just wondering in vague terms, specifically sense we were talking "vintage', if anyone had any thoughts on the matter to further the conversation.

Wow, next time Ill keep my mouth shut.  :o  :-\

No,please don't :)
I(We) acted that way Is because I(we ?) am a "burned Child"(German saying).
I've had this Discussion tooooo Often and I remember a lot of flames because everybody invcolved was a Gun expert(self Proclaimed) and everybody was right and nobody wanted to listen to other arguments.
And I also acted that way because I thought you were an Oldschooler whom I know from German Forums (Mystic)
 
with a friendly Dance
Medicineman

Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Mystic on <11-24-10/0540:17>
Null Sheen everyone. Like in my last post I was gonna make a change to lighten it up. I try not to take myself so seriously.

Quote from: Doc Chaos on <11-24-10/0424:28>
Quote from: Critias on <11-24-10/0341:19>
It's just a conversation, man, no big deal.  It's the whole reason we're here, isn't it?

WHAT?? Not the flames, rules-lawyering, bitching about product deadlines? Dammit...

I'll send you a flamethrower for the hollidays, hows that?  8)
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Chaemera on <11-24-10/0624:37>
Back to your main line of thoughts, Mystic.

For vintage guns, I'd be happy to consider going by old school caliber, just tell them that, with all the corporate mergers and mass production, modern guns really have been reduced to a caliber per class and the differences now reside entirely in the tech of the gun. This helps make ammo for that vintage gun even more "special" when they find it.

As others have mentioned, caliber is a great thing to mention as part of the story of the game, to give them an idea of the enemy they're dealing with. Someone taken down by an 8 gage slug was certainly dealing with a more deranged, and stronger, SOB than the guy shot in the back of the head, at close range, with a .22. Me, I'd be more afraid of the .22. The SOB with a giant shotgun, he'll stick out, I'll see him coming. The man with the .22 is either some crazy spy from MI6 or mafia, cool, in control and prepared to kill as necessary, with the minimal fuss necessary.

Aside from that, caliber makes me shudder, it's not the flame-war shudder Medicineman likely had. It's the GM shudder from when I ran a little game called d20 Modern, where every gun was listed with its caliber and my players were the hoarder types who wanted to salvage every scrap of ammo they came across. Which meant remembering what each gun each mook used. Very good reason, IMO, to resort to "light pistol caliber", "heavy pistol caliber", etc, in the rules.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Doc Chaos on <11-24-10/0703:15>
Don't remind me... thats when I stopped with some details and just give them "gun X and 3 clips of ammo, look it up yourself". When looting gets to the point where it takes way to much time away from the game, I make it more generic (except for campaigns where stuff like that matters a lot, of course).
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Mystic on <11-25-10/0038:35>
Never had that happen because not in D20 modern, but in the old Twilight 2000 game my group briefly ran. Talk about a logistical NIGHTMARE! Not only were we going after ammo, but parts, fuel, ways to purify water, etc etc. I need a tylenol just thinking about it.

Only reason I brought it up the ammo thin is because back in the day, I introduced the same group to SR3 about two years ago (handn't picked up 4e yet). And with more than one gunbunny in the group, I was asked the ammo question. I based the light, heavy, etc ammo on familiar  modern calibers to make the explination of the game and combat mechanics siimpler. Easier to have something they know and can relate to in my opinion.

Like Chaemera and Critias have allued to, its a lot easier, and fun to describe things with a bit more detail than "heavy pistol ammo. " even though they know that its just fluff.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Nomad Zophiel on <11-25-10/0357:59>
Quote from: Mystic on <11-25-10/0038:35>
Never had that happen because not in D20 modern, but in the old Twilight 2000 game my group briefly ran. Talk about a logistical NIGHTMARE! Not only were we going after ammo, but parts, fuel, ways to purify water, etc etc. I need a tylenol just thinking about it.

Yeah, but T2K was post-apocalyptic (sort of). It was about survival and people were supposed to sweat logistics. If I remember right, empty shell casings were used as currency.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Doc Chaos on <11-25-10/0448:18>
What, no bottlecaps? ;)
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: MJBurrage on <11-25-10/1315:49>
For someone who wants formulas to roughly equate real bullet stats to SR4 scale damage, see the table I posted (link below)

http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/User:MJBurrage/Caliber#Possible_formulas

Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Morg on <01-10-11/0111:32>
My Vintage Gun  ;D

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Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Kot on <01-10-11/0655:00>
Pimp my crossbow? :P
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Morg on <01-10-11/1606:26>
I dub thy crossbow Pimped!  :D

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Mystic on <01-10-11/1612:25>
Quote from: Morg on <01-10-11/0111:32>
My Vintage Gun  ;D

Ok this is slick, in a totaly insane sort of way.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Dead Monky on <01-10-11/1653:10>
I have to say, I LOVE that flintlock.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Outsider on <01-21-11/1829:00>
An FN FAL or any Post WW2 Soviet weapon like the 9x18 Makarov or the 7.62x25 PPS-42
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: theKernel on <02-05-11/1200:38>
Quote from: Chaemera on <11-23-10/0648:05>
Quote from: Mystic on <11-23-10/0534:11>
That makes me wonder: what are the quivilent calibers of modern firearms to their Sixth World successors? Would "heavy pistol" ammo be more of a .40, .45, or .375? Or would "light pistol" rounds be like a .38 or 9mm?

Leave the lid tight on that box!
Such questions are explicitly ignored in the RAW for a reason. . . (shudders in pained memory of d20 Modern ammo. . .)
If someone wanted a vintage gun, or I put one in for plot reasons, it would require its own, unique, ammo. I'll blame it on changes to smokeless powder in the intervening years and slight changes to caliber that are blessedly not addressed for the regular guns. Then I'd laugh at the look of despair as the players realize they have a gun for which they need to scrounge ammo.

Joins Medicineman. . . Keep that lid down!
so what exactilly the issue with that question? I'm just wondering. Also, is there a gun simaler to the desert eagle?
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: FastJack on <02-05-11/1313:26>
The issue with the question is that there are so many different types of ammunition in the world today, that, if you go the route that d20 modern did, you wind up with a ton of rules regarding different availabilities, keeping track of ammo for each of your guns separately, and a whole mess of other headaches that it's better to handwave away.

I'd also pictured the Savalette Guardian (with its sweet, beautiful chrome) as a Sixth World version of the Desert Eagle.
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/8310/wessonsavaletteguardian.jpg)(http://www.filofiel.com/tienda/images/BABY-DESERT-EAGLE-CROMO-BB.bmp)
Savalette GuardianDesert Eagle
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: theKernel on <02-05-11/1325:49>
What are the stats on the Savalette? (which I'm Salivating hahaha over)
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: FastJack on <02-05-11/1339:04>
Same as a Predator IV, but it has a Burst Fire mode, -1 Recoil Comp and holds 12 in the clip. The Availability is 7R and it costs 800¥ versus the Predator's 350¥. Of course, the Smartgun system is standard on both.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: theKernel on <02-05-11/1340:50>
guess what palov is going to be using??  :o
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: CanRay on <02-20-11/1734:43>
Vintage Firearms is my NPC's "Money" Johnson's hat.  So far, he's shown his 165-year old (In 2070) Holland & Holland Royal Deluxe Double Rifle in .600 Nitro Express.  He also has bolt-action rifles from every major side from WWI and WWII, and uses a Holland & Holland-made SMLE No. 4 or a sniper-grade Kar 98K for his "Hunting Rifles" in Seattle with him.  All legally owned.  (Only the Royal Deluxe Double Rifle has been seen, however.).  His Grandfather swears by IMI-built weapons, and has every type of Uzi ever made, but typically relies on a Uzi-III in 9mm Caseless, but also packs a Centennial-edition Colt M1911A1 in .45ACCP made in 2011.

Money's good chummer, Murphy, has a vintage Ares Predator Mk. I, stock save for replacement parts, that he uses as his standard sidearm, swapping out the barrels whenever he needs to give it a new ballistic profile.  It's been in his family for three generations of Shadowrunners (He's an ork), and has probably seen more action than some entire Shadow teams.

Although I've never gotten around to mentioning them much, Nas' family has a bunch of vintage firearms as well, with his brother favoring a M-14 rifle set to fire semi-automatically only for big trouble, but mostly carries a classic Ruger Redhawk revolver in .44 Magnum with custom vat-grown walnut grips, and a Henry Big Boy Lever-Action Rifle in .44 Magnum with equally custom furniture.  His family owns a farm (One of the few still in non-corporate hands) and is right on the Texas/Aztlan Border.  Nas spent most of his time driving, while his brother spent his time shooting, so he's a crack shot.

Yes, I think entirely too much about the backstory and history of all my characters.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Morg on <02-20-11/1749:51>
Quote from: CanRay on <02-20-11/1734:43>
Vintage Firearms is my NPC's "Money" Johnson's hat.  So far, he's shown his 165-year old (In 2070) Holland & Holland Royal Deluxe Double Rifle in .600 Nitro Express.  He also has bolt-action rifles from every major side from WWI and WWII, and uses a Holland & Holland-made SMLE No. 4 or a sniper-grade Kar 98K for his "Hunting Rifles" in Seattle with him.  All legally owned.  (Only the Royal Deluxe Double Rifle has been seen, however.).  His Grandfather swears by IMI-built weapons, and has every type of Uzi ever made, but typically relies on a Uzi-III in 9mm Caseless, but also packs a Centennial-edition Colt M1911A1 in .45ACCP made in 2011.

Money's good chummer, Murphy, has a vintage Ares Predator Mk. I, stock save for replacement parts, that he uses as his standard sidearm, swapping out the barrels whenever he needs to give it a new ballistic profile.  It's been in his family for three generations of Shadowrunners (He's an ork), and has probably seen more action than some entire Shadow teams.

Although I've never gotten around to mentioning them much, Nas' family has a bunch of vintage firearms as well, with his brother favoring a M-14 rifle set to fire semi-automatically only for big trouble, but mostly carries a classic Ruger Redhawk revolver in .44 Magnum with custom vat-grown walnut grips, and a Henry Big Boy Lever-Action Rifle in .44 Magnum with equally custom furniture.  His family owns a farm (One of the few still in non-corporate hands) and is right on the Texas/Aztlan Border.  Nas spent most of his time driving, while his brother spent his time shooting, so he's a crack shot.

Yes, I think entirely too much about the backstory and history of all my characters.

Funny thing is the PCs in my game normaly hand me three pages of background Info so don't cut yourself short. Remember most people will have about 2-3 things they obsess about weather they dislike it or love it and everyone has something they are ashamed as well as something they do that others think is odd.

-just a friendly thought
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: CanRay on <02-20-11/1804:50>
Quote from: Morg on <02-20-11/1749:51>
Funny thing is the PCs in my game normaly hand me three pages of background Info so don't cut yourself short. Remember most people will have about 2-3 things they obsess about weather they dislike it or love it and everyone has something they are ashamed as well as something they do that others think is odd.

-just a friendly thought
As a writer (Even if a hack of one, links to some of my work are in Fan Fiction if anyone cares), I know that a character is built up of his experiences, not just one event as far too many characters seem to be moved by.  His family, friends, enemies, all events of their life, and so on.  It characterizes how they do things and why.  And characters should be living, breathing beings that change and adapt by what happens, and not just in the number of scars they get, either.

And, just to keep this on-topic, the PC I made for a game that will hopefully happen, "The Accountant From Hell", would see vintage firearms only as an investment used as a way to launder money.  Buy up some old weapons in some drekhole of the world, get them repaired properly at some shadowshop that would probably have some happy gunsmiths for working on such pieces of art, and then turn around and sell them as restored items at auctions (Either shadow or legit if you can get away with it.).

Honestly, if a 'Runner can get his hands on a vintage Tommy Gun (Either M1921/1928 or M1/M1A1) and fix it up, you know some criminal boss would love to have it just be in his office.  Knowing that it'll work would just be gravy!
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Rockopolis on <02-20-11/1910:04>
You know, I wish I could come up with that much backstory.  My characters come from nowhere, and are probably going there, too.
Used to have a thing for burned out ex-revolutionaries.  Watched too many Samurai movies, I think.

Think the AK-97 counts as vintage gear by now?
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: CanRay on <02-20-11/2110:25>
Quote from: Rockopolis on <02-20-11/1910:04>
Think the AK-97 counts as vintage gear by now?
Considering that the "97" in the name probably means 1997, I'd say "Yeah!!!"

They're still in production, so that tells you something!

Of course, in my games, the Colt Single Action Army Revolver Model of 1873 is still manufactured in small batches by Colt, so...  (It's a revolver available in 4P and 5P "Calibers", with an inability to use Speedloaders, if you want stats.  If you want to know how it looks, rent a Western.).

Actually, there'd be a big bit of publicity going for the 200th Anniversary Special Editions of these pistols coming out soon to select clientele!  Who wants to 'Run against Colt's Manufacturing LLC?
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: savaze on <02-21-11/0539:52>
I like me some revolvers with cased ammo, ah nostalgia!
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: CanRay on <02-21-11/1143:06>
Quote from: savaze on <02-21-11/0539:52>
I like me some revolvers with cased ammo, ah nostalgia!
Revolvers can use caseless ammo?

Edit:  Oh, right, Percussion Cap & Ball Revolvers!  Forgot about them.
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: Rockopolis on <02-21-11/1148:32>
I still like the idea of Smith and Wesson's early 'Volcanic' pistols.  Awesome name, cool concept; caseless ammunition from 1850!  And the bullets were called Rocket Ball.  What's not to like?
Title: Re: Vintage Guns
Post by: CanRay on <02-21-11/1157:44>
Quote from: Rockopolis on <02-21-11/1148:32>
I still like the idea of Smith and Wesson's early 'Volcanic' pistols.  Awesome name, cool concept; caseless ammunition from 1850!  And the bullets were called Rocket Ball.  What's not to like?
How pathetic the power of the round was?  The unreliability of the firearm?  It was a cool concept, but the Henry Rifles and Winchester Rifles that came after it took the technology where it needed to go.

Now, a "Mare's Leg", there's a cool weapon!  Impractical, but very effective!