Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Scythe Massakur on <05-28-20/2320:17>
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So, I have just come to another problem I am unprepared for and I can't find any info on it. If a technomancer needs to be forcibly removed from the matrix to save them from dying, how would one do that? Since they're not physically jacked in.
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I'm not sure I understand the question, as pulling someone out of the matrix is not required to do first aid/medkit.
Are you asking about a context like "OMG, he's getting his ass kicked by the IC, I'm pulling the plug on him"? Because if so... yeah you can't do that with a Living Persona. Aside from knocking him unconscious yourself. But dumpshock might kill him...
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So, I have just come to another problem I am unprepared for and I can't find any info on it. If a technomancer needs to be forcibly removed from the matrix to save them from dying, how would one do that? Since they're not physically jacked in.
Deckers aren't physically jacked in either. Haven't been since 3rd edition. It's all Wireless baby. If they're Link Locked it's the Jack Out action or bust.
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So, I have just come to another problem I am unprepared for and I can't find any info on it. If a technomancer needs to be forcibly removed from the matrix to save them from dying, how would one do that? Since they're not physically jacked in.
Deckers aren't physically jacked in either. Haven't been since 3rd edition. It's all Wireless baby. If they're Link Locked it's the Jack Out action or bust.
Decker can still have a buddy that can shutdown his deck and sever the connection as long as its not an implant. Still causes dumpshock but it's an option at least, if they know it.
Technomancers... not so much it the price you pay for not having gear.
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Link Lock specifically prevents Rebooting, at least it did in 5th. Did that change?
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No change... but being able to physically shutdown a deck is different than rebooting as a matrix action.
Reboot is like using the windows command to restart your computer while the other is like pulling the plug. I assume people don't need to be told that a piece of electronics gear has a power switch.
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Being allowed to just physically turn off a device does kind of take the threat out of link locking, though. I assumed that the link lock overrides the power-off function.
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Not really in my opinion, still causes dumpshock and there are still a lot of "IFS" in play.
Can it be done? Yes ... if there is some way that your buddy know when to do it? Is it some kind of biometric trigger alarm? What sets it off if so? Can you send a message? Sometimes, but usually not. Is there some other contingency you set up? What it is? What if your buddy miss reads the cue? Or doesn't see it because they are distracted?
It's no different than pulling the cable from the datajack was in previous editions.
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Being allowed to just physically turn off a device does kind of take the threat out of link locking, though. I assumed that the link lock overrides the power-off function.
Software can't disable a physical switch.
However, if the decker is hacking in VR, then he physically can't power down his deck as VR overrides his physical body movements.
Hence why a buddy would have to do it for him.
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Turning a device off is essentially the Reboot action, unless you're using a sledge hammer to hit the power switch. And FWIW remapping the function of a Power button on a device is absolutely something Malware and the like do all the time IRL. If Stuxnet can do it, so can Black IC I should think. Modern devices do not have an electro-mechanical switch like a light switch. You are not mechanically completing or breaking an electrical circuit between the power supply and the CPU.
I've always presumed the Jack Out test was because its a pressure situation where seconds matter. You need to first recognize that you're Link Locked. Two, know what to do about it. Three, actually do that thing in a couple of seconds before the terrors from the digital realms fry your brain and call down a drone strike on your meat body.
If effectively no test is required to break Link Lock, what's the point? Link Lock forces a Persona to stay on the Matrix so GOD can rain down righteous retribution on the Hacker via digital demons. Jack Out is the frantic, last second scrambling to prevent that.
You can fluff the Jack Out action however you'd like. Yank the batteries, manually turn off the Wireless, deliberately crash your own OS, whatever. (I have no idea what the Technomancer fluff would be...) I'd even let other PCs assist with the appropriate rolls. But it's still a roll, because the PC can fail, and there are serious consequences for failure.
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Turning a device off is essentially the Reboot action, unless you're using a sledge hammer to hit the power switch. And FWIW remapping the function of a Power button on a device is absolutely something Malware and the like do all the time IRL. If Stuxnet can do it, so can Black IC I should think. Modern devices do not have an electro-mechanical switch like a light switch. You are not mechanically completing or breaking an electrical circuit between the power supply and the CPU.
Stuxnet doesn't do what you think it does... it in no way stops someone from walking up and flipping the Off switch.
Now, don't confuse a filament delay switch (like the one on your phone to stop you from turning it off accidentally) for software.... it's still a mechanical switch.
(This is my real life job we are talking about here. I install this stuff all day long, and have dealt with Stuxnet through Siemiens, Microsoft)
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Stuxnet was a poor example as it targets industrial machines that still have electro mechanical toggle switches, fair enough.
But re-mapping a power button is something even I can do given a few minutes. I have complete faith in Sci-Fi hunter killer pseudo AIs being able to do it as well.
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exactly. I have strong doubts that devices in the sixth world use analog off switches.
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Look....
I typed up a huge article, had links... but the comp crapped it up before I could post and I am not going through the effort AGAIN.
IN SHORT:
Do not confuse the "power down" electronic command in windows or your phone, for the actual PHYSICAL BUTTON located on EVERY FRICKKEN DEVICE know to man.
They are 2 entirely seperate things. always have been, always will be..
There is nothing that bunch of floating bits of data are going to do to a PHYSICAL CIRCUIT..... and it is beyond the pale you can't grasp that...
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That's just it. I don't see them HAVING physical power buttons. By 2080 everyone's doing everything via AR. Physically pulling your commlink out to press a physical button is so Fifth World. I imagine they're not seen any more than rotary dials are on smartphones now. For the same reasons. Probably even more, even better reasons for Big Brother/Big Data not wanting consumers to have a physical switch to cut the power to their commlinks.
And when it comes to link lock overriding an order to power off... we already have this concept in the Matrix hacking rules. "hack" the gun so that when the trigger is pulled, it ejects the clip instead of firing. Not much of a stretch to imagine that link lock inherently "hacks" your power-down command to go to file 13 rather than actually powering down.
And of course, in the case of implanted devices... there's certainly no reason they'd have a physical button of any kind.
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The power button on my phone literally pops up a window with options. I've got to use the touch screen to select an option. There is no electro-mechanical switch to turn off or on my phone. I could yank out the battery or hit it with a hammer.
Same with Laptops. The Power Button could be your Space bar if you wanted. Or the Space bar could be your Power button. Same thing. You can yank the battery or hit it with a hammer if you want.
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So, when Jon buys a Trideo from Kongmart. Its Just On....
While hes packing through to his car its just on...
While driving home, trideo playing in the back seat... cause its just on...
Lugging up the stairs.... its just on....
Oh I see!!!
In 2080 we have thrown 200 years of SAFETY and circuit design out the window (yes, circuirts predate electricity!)
Not to mention 130 years of electrical SAFETY and design along with it!!!
There are some very REAL reasons why shit have an off button....
Lets start small. Your blender.....
Without that off button, what is going to stop those spinning blades when Timmy puts his fingers in the bowl????
Now, a little bigger..... it sure would be nice if you could stop the EM interferrance from yoyr cellohone, so you know, YOUR PACE MAKER CAN FUNCTION!! But really, a bearing heart is sooo over rated...
And geee.... if only we had a way to stop those FISSION fuel rods from exiting the chamber.... guess we just critical....
And those are just the smart ass ones off the top of my head....
Servicing.
Repairs,
Upgrades.
All good reasons to have a PHYSICAL way of disconnect, so you don't end up taking 3 amps across the heart.... (16 times the lethal limit, yet can come ftom a WATCH BATTERY in critical fault.... which happens more then you realize...)
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The power button on my phone literally pops up a window with options. I've got to use the touch screen to select an option. There is no electro-mechanical switch to turn off or on my phone. I could yank out the battery or hit it with a hammer.
Same with Laptops. The Power Button could be your Space bar if you wanted. Or the Space bar could be your Power button. Same thing. You can yank the battery or hit it with a hammer if you want.
hold the button for 30 seconds.
Or, if on a Samsung s10, Down volume + power button for 7 seconds.
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Don't disagree. But Laptops and Phones don't have an electro-mechanical on/off switch that the user toggles. The power buttons are mapped to software functions that can absolutely be re-mapped to different software functions, or nothing at all even.
Ye-olde desktop PCs still might have a physical rocker switch or something. Personally I haven't had one of those in several years, couldn't tell you for sure.
Hell, even cars don't have mechanical on/off switches anymore. Or at least not mechanical switches a typical user would access, there are obviously mechanical things going on under the hood. You'd need to ask Toyota how many people that wound up killing, and new cars still have the dumb ass button start. Totally a marketing gimmick, press a button or turn a key, really is it that hard to turn a car key?
Hilarious side note, older cars were push button starts. At least once they got batteries figured out. Keyed ignitions came later. Car doors had keys
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Don't disagree. But Laptops and Phones don't have an electro-mechanical on/off switch that the user toggles. The power buttons are mapped to software functions that can absolutely be re-mapped to different software functions, or nothing at all even.
Yes, they do. They use a filament system. (this was all covered in the long post that got nuked...) Look in your manual, there WILL be a 2 or 3 key press system that will power down your system. Trust me its there.
Why is it there? Because of the reasons I mentioned above. AND the fact that they are required (by LAW!) to include one. OR just tell me your system model No and serial, and I will look it up myself and tell you.
What happens if your system hangs and you can not access the interface? You just sit there for 5 days waiting for the battery to drain? Unplug the battery, risking an Arc Fault?
Ye-olde desktop PCs still might have a physical rocker switch or something. Personally I haven't had one of those in several years, couldn't tell you for sure.
They are not giant red toggle buttons you flick up and down like a light switch! (ok, yes in the 80s they were!). If you have a DESKTOP, with a POWER SUPPLY... you technically have 2. The one in the front of your case that you push to "wake it up" (or hold it in... and *gasp* the power goes off!).. there is also a toggle on the supply itself (to comply with SCC /CSA/EUSA regulations on all power converters/amplifiers/and nonlinear transformers.)
Hell, even cars don't have mechanical on/off switches anymore. Or at least not mechanical switches a typical user would access, there are obviously mechanical things going on under the hood. You'd need to ask Toyota how many people that wound up killing, and new cars still have the dumb ass button start. Totally a marketing gimmick, press a button or turn a key, really is it that hard to turn a car key?
Press the break, push the button for 7 seconds to disable the electrical system to root function (CPU only). Listen for the honk. (2017 Ford titanium F150)
Also with the button start system are 3 extra switches and system for safety.
What do you think happens when you push that button in your car??? What happens EXACTLY?
When you push the start the button (An NORMALLY OPEN function), you complete an electrical circuirt and close a hold... you know what... picture time! next post.
Hilarious side note, older cars were push button starts. At least once they got batteries figured out. Keyed ignitions came later. Car doors had keys
They were also crank overs to start as well... Nothing like trying to move a bunch of pistions by hand and the compression force required for the igniters to burn the fuel with enough pressure to take the system over!
Even more fun when try to do it on a 750kw Genny from the 1940s..
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This the simplest diagram I can find...
the flow of electricity is from left to right (important!). As you can see, the stop button is closed, allowing electricity to flow past it... and stops...
Why?
Because the the start button has yet to be pressed, thus the circuit has an open, and electricity WILL NOT FLOW. (AKA, your computer won't turn on!).
Once the start button is pushed, there is a connection for electricity to flow, and hit the relay coil, allowing the contacts to close, and electricity to flow and thus power your computer.....
like I said... this is the SIMPLEST system...
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Now, An ACTUAL button start wiring diagram.....
This is right from Ford.... Can you spot the Starter? Can you spot the contacts?
AND, can you spot WHY you would want a physical disconnect in the system? I'll give you a clue... 2 numbers with an A after them,
this circuit (which physically is really quite small) contains enough energy to kill 21 people in a single go!
Now, the system is cluttered up with delay action resistors, and temperature filaments, diodes and caps, but its all there... right down to the physical disconnect.
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I'm not sure I understand the question, as pulling someone out of the matrix is not required to do first aid/medkit.
Are you asking about a context like "OMG, he's getting his ass kicked by the IC, I'm pulling the plug on him"? Because if so... yeah you can't do that with a Living Persona. Aside from knocking him unconscious yourself. But dumpshock might kill him...
I was put under the impression that technomancers that take damage in the Matrix take damage in flesh space. But yes, he/she is getting their ass kicked by IC, is there any way to get them out aside from knocking them out?
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I'm not sure I understand the question, as pulling someone out of the matrix is not required to do first aid/medkit.
Are you asking about a context like "OMG, he's getting his ass kicked by the IC, I'm pulling the plug on him"? Because if so... yeah you can't do that with a Living Persona. Aside from knocking him unconscious yourself. But dumpshock might kill him...
I was put under the impression that technomancers that take damage in the Matrix take damage in flesh space.
That is correct. They don't have a matrix condition monitor, so any matrix damage goes right to their own damage track. And then they take it AGAIN, if it was biofeedback ;)
But yes, he/she is getting their ass kicked by IC, is there any way to get them out aside from knocking them out?
Nope.
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I'm not sure I understand the question, as pulling someone out of the matrix is not required to do first aid/medkit.
Are you asking about a context like "OMG, he's getting his ass kicked by the IC, I'm pulling the plug on him"? Because if so... yeah you can't do that with a Living Persona. Aside from knocking him unconscious yourself. But dumpshock might kill him...
I was put under the impression that technomancers that take damage in the Matrix take damage in flesh space.
That is correct. They don't have a matrix condition monitor, so any matrix damage goes right to their own damage track. And then they take it AGAIN, if it was biofeedback ;)
But yes, he/she is getting their ass kicked by IC, is there any way to get them out aside from knocking them out?
Nope.
Many thanks. That's all I needed for now.
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So, have a chummer on stand by with a few tranq patches to 'jack you out' is what I am hearing?
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I have to run the numbers for SR6, but at least in SR5 you were highly unlikely to become unconscious from biofeedback damage alone before the device you used to connect to the matrix was bricked and you got dumped from the matrix anyway.
If you jack into VR via a device then the device will try to take the Switch Interface Mode action to switch you to AR if you fall unconscious, but you will still remain connected to the matrix.
If your persona is currently link locked then you will remain in VR even if you fall unconscious.
So, have a chummer on stand by with a few tranq patches to 'jack you out' is what I am hearing?
A Technomancer that falls unconscious will still be connected to the matrix and since the TM doesn't have a device to switch her to AR mode if she falls unconscious she will also remain in VR (even if not link-locked).
If anything you would want to stand-by with stim-patches and trauma-patches. Or a coffin-sized Faraday's cage.
A tranq-patch? Not so much.