Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Wakshaani on <11-07-15/2214:52>
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In case y'all missed it, there was a small art preview today.
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And so it begins…Shadowrun Rigger 5 is already starting to move into layout and art is coming in fast and furious, which means time to start sharing details!
Here’s the pre-final description from the book:
Transporting goods across long overland routes can be dangerous, so Mack developed the Hellhound. I was going to say something about it being like a real hellhound only without flaming breath, but one of the most common close-defense systems installed on the Hellhound is flamethrowers. This road warrior would make a great post-apocalyptic war rig like the ones in Mad Max: Furios Child. It’s meant to deter go-gangs and road-jackers, and while it’s nice and shiny off the factory line, it tends to take a beating in short order and look like its been through hell. But it also looked like it survived hell and came back to share some of it with you.
And here’s the illustration from artist Victor Moreno:
(http://36.media.tumblr.com/7a270f37a66ac1baf6e96fd7f73c179f/tumblr_inline_nxgjx4U3Dq1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
I suddenly want a run through the Outback!
Enjoy!
Randall
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(That post was from Randall Bills, just a little copy-paste-o from me.)
The Mack Hellhound. Ahhh yisss...
(Riggers! Start yer engines!)
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Definitely a sweet pic and tip of the hat to the artist drawing that.
Not trying to be funny, but the question is did that come off the factory line with all that or is there a mod system to let us make that?
I ask as it mentioned one of the most commonly installed close defense systems is flamethrowers.
So again, will we be able to get a baseline Hellhound and trick it out, or is it like the Master line and you get MobMaster, Citymaster, Donutmaster where you can only select from a few variants?
Sure it is nice that it is bristling with weapons, but if the new book only gives us premade engines of destruction but no modding system, a lot of riggers are still going to feel cheated.
No too unlike how some mages feel about a lack of a cohesive spell creation system.
Let's hope for the best. ;D
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Sure it is nice that it is bristling with weapons, but if the new book only gives us premade engines of destruction but no modding system, a lot of riggers are still going to feel cheated.
Agreed. Half the fun of playing a rigger (at least an old-school one) is pimping the ride.
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Thanks Wakshaani, missed that one yesterday. For those link challenged, the article of the CGL Tumblr can be found here:
Shadowrun Rigger 5 Art… (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/132742520421/shadowrun-rigger-5-art)
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My pleasure! I can't tell you about the goodies inside this one yet, but it's one that I've *very* much been looking forward to. I'm a sucker for Riggers and, honestly, if it wasn't for shooting proposals for other books, I would have asked for, like, the whole thing. :D Obviously, they wouldn't let me do that, that would have been *crazy*, and my hands would have fallen off from typing, but... boy, I dig riggers.
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Does Rigger 5 will include some changes in vehicle chase rules ? Worst part of corebook, shoudl we expect some changes in this manner?
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VIVA LA RIGGER!!!!!! Now take my money and give me my Rigger!!!!
My only issue with the art is the back mounted turret seems a bit disproportionate to the rest of the vehicle, especially as it looks like it could be control by another person. Riggers have to have awareness of their surroundings and having the barrel of a weapon hanging outside the bed of the vehicle. Be really bad to ding up weaponry or people if you booking it down a narrow street. Also most riggers also may pimp out their vehicles keeping the weapons concealed so the Star or Knights don't use you for the latest episode of "Let's Blow It Up!!!" trid series.
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Yes! I'm both excited and a little hesitant given the ratio between flush and crunch in previous Core books ...
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As long as this is closer to R&G or Run Faster than I will be happy. If it is like Chromed Flesh I am going fluff writer hunting!!
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And here’s the illustration from artist Victor Moreno:
(http://36.media.tumblr.com/7a270f37a66ac1baf6e96fd7f73c179f/tumblr_inline_nxgjx4U3Dq1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
I suddenly want a run through the Outback!
Enjoy!
Randall
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(That post was from Randall Bills, just a little copy-paste-o from me.)
The Mack Hellhound. Ahhh yisss...
(Riggers! Start yer engines!)
Must. Have. That. Vehicle! Oh, yes, that has become a must have purchase for my decker/rigger! (Insert Homer Simpson pork chop drooling noises here) ;D
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I just hope they keep most of what was in Arsenal, instead of how they destroyed weapon mods.
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Could you be a tad more specific? It's been a while since I loked through that part of Arsenal.
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Gib moar pictures plz
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I just hope they keep most of what was in Arsenal, instead of how they destroyed weapon mods.
I wager CGL will add only a minimum of Vehicle/Drone Modification Rules
and later they'll produce a PDF with more of them ,so that they can sell the Rules twice.
they did it before , so I'll bet they'll do it again
With only half of a Dance
(the other Half will come next Year )
Medicineman
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You're too young to be so cynical.
That said, I do want to submit a book to the upstairs people to expand on Rigger 5 some more, but it's via my own thoughts on a Thing. More on this, hopefully, later.
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Wak, what I'd like is to have the mod slots by vehicle Body, with plenty of choices, as you see in Arsenal. With Weapon mods, they had pretty much the same system, with various mods taking up slots, and you had 6 slots for weapons. That allowed me to, for instance, have my Yamaha Sakura Fubuki with an Internal Smartgun system, Custom Look 2, Integral Silencer, and Chameleon Coat. Or my Katana with personalized grip, gecko grip, and custom look 2. With vehicles, I had so much fun tricking out my Bulldog into a poor man's APC, and my AI Street Samurai went to town on her drone's chassis, modding it to be awesome as all hell. Unfortunately, it looks like this edition is all about 'streamlining' instead of 'customization', which makes me sad.
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*jot jot*
Thank you!
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Another art snippet from Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/133616155736/shadowrun-rigger-50-art):
(http://36.media.tumblr.com/1234aa1a14a5b1b642958a3207843e0a/tumblr_inline_ny4w7s01w31s9c9hj_500.jpg)
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Nice use of 'dragonfly' drones :)
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Something we just noticed recently, that I hope will be covered, even if very briefly: insertion vehicles for air and water. Zodiacs, jet skis, kayaks (etc) for water, and ultralights and hang gliders for air. And hopefully some cool 2077 twists on such things. For all the "the target is on a converted oil rig / an isolated ranch with a lot of guards on the ground / a small island, etc occasions.
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Excellent note Beta...I thought they covered some of this previously in War!, but agree that this would great to see.
An aside, quite like the style of the artist, Takashi Tan; looking forward to seeing more from him.
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For some reason the full-sized image doesn't appear on the tumblr.
http://36.media.tumblr.com/1234aa1a14a5b1b642958a3207843e0a/tumblr_inline_ny4w7s01w31s9c9hj_1280.jpg
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Thanks Crimsondude, link is much appreciated.
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Oh, and another thing! Drones. Specifically, anthroform drones that aren't cyborg bodies. Or even animal-form drones. One of my favorite drones from 4E was the Nadeshiko from Rigger 4. Yeah, it was a joke product, but the Nadeshiko was still a quality drone that fit a good niche between the useless Manservant and the expensive as all hell (because of the Cyborg bit) Otomo. Drones that can pass for people or animals at first glance are beautiful for infiltration or other such purposes. And I am quite pleased with how my AI Street Samurai turned out, living in a Nadeshiko drone.
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So I have been listening to Dice Crimes recently and a lot of their early episodes involved some interesting rigger tricks but they kind of had to make up their own rules. I hope that they address this in the RIgger 5 book cause that be awesome to pull some of the stuff that they did.
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Something we just noticed recently, that I hope will be covered, even if very briefly: insertion vehicles for air and water. Zodiacs, jet skis, kayaks (etc) for water, and ultralights and hang gliders for air. And hopefully some cool 2077 twists on such things. For all the "the target is on a converted oil rig / an isolated ranch with a lot of guards on the ground / a small island, etc occasions.
I would love to see some more air and water vehicles as well, especially aircraft in the rotor and tilt-wing/vtol categories. Currently the only affordable unit is the Wasp, which only seats one, at 85,000 nuyen. The next cheapest vehicles in either category cost 350,000 and 355,000. It would be great to see some more options fall between the Wasp and those other two.
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I would love to see some more air and water vehicles as well, especially aircraft in the rotor and tilt-wing/vtol categories. Currently the only affordable unit is the Wasp, which only seats one, at 85,000 nuyen. The next cheapest vehicles in either category cost 350,000 and 355,000. It would be great to see some more options fall between the Wasp and those other two.
I'd love something around the 150k-190k range that could actually transport a Shadowrunner team of six. Nothing super fancy, but I really want something in that area.
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Heck, even runner team of 4 (not counting pilot/copilot).
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Meh, just provide rules for clown caring it when security is hot on their heels (and the bullets even closer) like my group did. Then again we were masters at it as teens 8)
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There are rules for putting more people than there are seats - but it caps out at 150%. So you could get two runners in a Northrup Wasp, probably.
Seating (for people) can be exceeded by up to 150 percent by stuffing people inside, but doing so decreases the vehicle’s Speed and Handling attributes by one.
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More art posted up on Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/133929855086/shadowrun-rigger-50-art):
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/e0adb274dbe8dbdd6acc9363cd014316/tumblr_inline_nydljtYmpt1s9c9hj_1280.jpg)
Very nice... ;D
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Heh, I'll put a check-mark on my wish-list beside "Jet skis" then :D
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sweet ride, could have used that for a delivery off the Big Sur awhile back..
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(http://36.media.tumblr.com/1234aa1a14a5b1b642958a3207843e0a/tumblr_inline_ny4w7s01w31s9c9hj_1280.jpg)
Mentioned upthread, but I don't think it displayed properly.
Love dem Dragonflies. (And a bonus point for the floor washing drone getting in on teh action!)
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Some great looking art! Looking forward to seeing the whole thing!
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Hmm, so could this possibly be miniature weapon mounts for small scale weapons?
Of so, that's really fraging awesome.
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Now the only question is will it be before or after Christmas. Gotta sort my cash out
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Any chance on a conversion table for 4th edition's vehicles and drones?
I'm not going to call it high priority, but it could be helpful.
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A conversion table is unlikely.
BUT!
You may well see several drones pop back up again. Not all of them, mind, but a goodly chunk. (Along with new stuff, natch!)
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One old drone that I'd like a 5E version of is the Medusa. Nothing says joy like stealthy kangaroo cats from hell.
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You know what I want, more concrete rules on rigging buildings. There is a lot of fluff about corporate spiders being able to jump-in to a building and rig it and make it unhackable, but how would you even handle a "drone" that large that is also immovable. Do riggers see through all the sensors at once? Do you run into slaving limitations? Like can you have only a certain number of turrets or something or is the number unlimited? Does it require a host? What makes a drone different from a commlink?
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One old drone that I'd like a 5E version of is the Medusa. Nothing says joy like stealthy kangaroo cats from hell.
I want one of them to ride into Battle with !
with an awesome Dance
Medicineman
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What does a Medusa (SR version) look like?
Like this
http://images.mocpages.com/user_images/12701/12475318311_SPLASH.jpg
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Now the only question is will it be before or after Christmas. Gotta sort my cash out
Wold be very surprised if the digital release is not out within the next few weeks, but had copies not until new year.
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On the First day of Christmas
Catalyst sent to me
Rigger 5 on Drivethrurpg......
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On the First day of Christmas
Catalyst sent to me
Rigger 5 on Drivethrurpg......
;D
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The wait is reeeeeeeeal
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Don't die yet!
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Don't die yet!
I can see it now, a herd of zombies all shuffling forward mumbling 'rigger' ;D
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What does a Medusa (SR version) look like?
Like this
http://images.mocpages.com/user_images/12701/12475318311_SPLASH.jpg (http://images.mocpages.com/user_images/12701/12475318311_SPLASH.jpg)
Specifically, it's this: http://imgur.com/2msbry5 (http://imgur.com/2msbry5)
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Hrm.
Quadraped animalistic drone.
Wonder if we'll see anythng like that in Rigger 5?
I have a sudden need to find me a deck of cards.
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What does a Medusa (SR version) look like?
Like this
http://images.mocpages.com/user_images/12701/12475318311_SPLASH.jpg (http://images.mocpages.com/user_images/12701/12475318311_SPLASH.jpg)
Specifically, it's this: http://imgur.com/2msbry5 (http://imgur.com/2msbry5)
Like I seid before
I want one of these to ride !
HeyaHeyaHeyaJa
Medicineman
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I would ask about any word on a date but I know the answer will be "SoonTM"
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look at tumblr, just sayin'
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Catching up a little...from Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/134411092596/shadowrun-rigger-50-art):
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/c5309ff48a69f5bf866837801e7245c3/tumblr_inline_nyqvpesIta1s9c9hj_1280.jpg)
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/f29964a25907a49c1d9be01d524a06c3/tumblr_inline_nyqvpt3JmR1s9c9hj_1280.jpg)
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Some sweet artwork
I like the section name at the bottom 'Building the perfect beast' :D
sounds promising
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Nice chopper. I'm just afraid that whatever it's representing will be overpriced all to hell like just about every other aircraft.
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Nice chopper. I'm just afraid that whatever it's representing will be overpriced all to hell like just about every other aircraft.
Weeeeeeeeeeell, most aircraft are actually undercosted, but if people had to pay real prices, they'd be about as unattainable as Pi-TAC systems.
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From a game perspective, they are ridiculously overpriced, as all except the Wasp is functionally unattainable.
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From a game perspective, they are ridiculously overpriced, as all except the Wasp is functionally unattainable.
I'm not so sure about that - you can buy everything but the Banshee at chargen. Granted, you're not really buying anything else, but they're definitely attainable. Now, granted, I would like something like a 8-seater Ares Dragon for about 100k nuyen less (or a 4 seater for 50k nuyen more than the Wasp), but I don't think the aircraft prices are that ridiculous. They're just ridiculous for a single 'runner to own. Which is pretty equivalent to real life.
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I'm not so sure about that - you can buy everything but the Banshee at chargen. Granted, you're not really buying anything else, but they're definitely attainable. Now, granted, I would like something like a 8-seater Ares Dragon for about 100k nuyen less (or a 4 seater for 50k nuyen more than the Wasp), but I don't think the aircraft prices are that ridiculous. They're just ridiculous for a single 'runner to own. Which is pretty equivalent to real life.
Except the Wasp, those you can get in generation with Resources A are well above availability restrictions, and even if they weren't you would not have any other vehicle and likely only a PoS RCC. Once in play, there are too many other things you need to focus your cash in to be able to save up enough.
The idea of "ridiculous for a single runner to own" is ludicrous. If someone wants a character with decent (and decently modded) vehicles of each major type (air, water and ground) with enough seating for all of the characters and their gear, they should be able to.
Note- I'm not talking heavily armed with copious amounts of extra armor either. Just a decent seating vehicle of each type with a few (probably around two or three) drones armed with SMGs or rifles.
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Except the Wasp, those you can get in generation with Resources A are well above availability restrictions..
Only the Nissan Hound and the GMC Banshee are out of availability.
... and even if they weren't you would not have any other vehicle and likely only a PoS RCC. Once in play, there are too many other things you need to focus your cash in to be able to save up enough.
RCC isn't a requirement for a rigger. In fact, I'd say it's barely useful if you're going to focus on vehicles. It's also easier to save up for than the other items.
The idea of "ridiculous for a single runner to own" is ludicrous. If someone wants a character with decent (and decently modded) vehicles of each major type (air, water and ground) with enough seating for all of the characters and their gear, they should be able to.
Ares Dragon - 355,000
Samuvani Otter - 21,000
GMC Bulldog - 35,000
3x Rigger Interfaces - 3,000
Used Control Rig (R1) - 32,250
446,250 - given In Debt/Born Rich/Karma and you'll definitely have the nuyen to get your basics (about 20,000). You'd probably be able to pick up R1-R3 Reaction Enhancers as well. As for the drones - drones are easy to pick up after the fact. And you can probably squeeze in a Roto Drone with decent armaments and a Fly Spy as well.
EDIT: Also, realize, I'm not disagreeing with your main point. I want a cheaper, decent-seater aircraft capable of VTOL and hovering. I just don't think it's impossible to get one now. You just have to make significant choices to do it.
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You need far more than twenty grand for 'every man' stuff. Heck having one fake SIN (that can be trusted not to burn quickly) with appropriate fake Licenses is going to run rather close to twelve grand by itself before getting any lifestyles.
And, yes, a decent Command Console is a Rigger requirement if you have (or will ever be getting) ANY drones.
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Nice chopper. I'm just afraid that whatever it's representing will be overpriced all to hell like just about every other aircraft.
Always so negative!
Just be glad you aren't looking at real-world prices for this kind of thing. Tens of millions, or low Billions (with a B!) for a single Milspec vehicle, for instance. As a fer-instance, an Apache Helicopter would set you back around $40 million.
If this particular whirlybird cost *half* that, it'd be a huge comparative bargain, but you couldn't expect any runner team to ever cough up that kind of cash, now could you?
So it probably costs less than $20 million.
So now we enter the Price is Right portion of the thread!
How much would *you* pay for a heavily-armed combat chopper?
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If it is in the millions at all or in the upper reaches of the hundreds-of-thousands, then it is overpriced within the bounds of the game considering typical rewards.
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And, yes, a decent Command Console is a Rigger requirement if you have (or will ever be getting) ANY drones.
It's also something you can easily pick up after a few runs. Let's assume you do two runs without it and then max out Working for the Man (which most people allow). Then you have the cash for a Maersk Spider, which is a decent enough place to start. Or you can save for two more runs and get a Vulcan Liegelord. It's not unnattainable after chargen.
I still thing 20k is a fine amount to start with. But we're going to have to agree to disagree on that.
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How much would *you* pay for a heavily-armed combat chopper?
I actually found the Nissan Hound pretty fairly priced for that. Drop six seats and I think 375k would be fair.
EDITED TO ADD: I did remake the Hughes Stallion for my group as follows:
This workhorse utility helicopter can be fitted to carry cargo, though it slows the vehicle down. It is traditionally used as a people carrier or light cargo lifter.
Handling: 4
Speed: 4
Acceleration: 3
Pilot: 3
Body: 14
Armor: 8
Sensor: 3
Seats: - 7 (1 troll-sized)
Availability: 12
Price: 175,000
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'Pay' for a combat chopper? What is this 'pay' you speak of? Is it anything like 'steal'? That, I know.
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'Pay' for a combat chopper? What is this 'pay' you speak of? Is it anything like 'steal'? That, I know.
It's the same concept, but you leave a pile of nuyen somewhere to distract them from guarding the chopper.
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I still thing 20k is a fine amount to start with. But we're going to have to agree to disagree on that.
Rating 4 Fake SIN (this rating needed for reliability) - 10,000
4x Rating 4 Fake Licenses (may need more depending on how the GM runs them) - 1,600
3 months Low lifestyle (probably the minimum you should have for a rigger or decker) - 6,000
Total - 17,600
If you have a real SIN, you'll need a few months of another lifestyle as well (let's go Low for cheapness), so there's another six grand there.
Then you need to worry about other 'every man' stuff like a medical kit, a personal firearm (yet another license you'll need as well) and some good armor at minimum.
Alone, that stuff puts you well over twenty grand.
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'Pay' for a combat chopper? What is this 'pay' you speak of? Is it anything like 'steal'? That, I know.
Don't forget to put in the special discount code when making your purchase! This week's code is "Kane". :D
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3 months Low lifestyle (probably the minimum you should have for a rigger or decker) - 6,000
There's our difference of opinion. I never buy more than a month because it's a waste of your limited character creation resources.
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There's our difference of opinion. I never buy more than a month because it's a waste of your limited character creation resources.
Should always get at least three, otherwise the meager cash rewards will further prevent a good amount of saving up for upgrades and getting more stuff later on.
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Should always get at least three, otherwise the meager cash rewards will further prevent a good amount of saving up for upgrades and getting more stuff later on.
Regardless, that's why I mentioned Born Rich and In Debt. Those can easily net you another 150k.
I'm just arguing from the point of "it's possible to get what you described." You have to make some choices about what you're doing, but I feel like it's far from impossible.
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Impossible, perhaps not, but it's as far from feasible it isn't even funny.
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Impossible, perhaps not, but it's as far from feasible it isn't even funny.
We agree on the thrust, just not on the intensity. :)
What did you think of the alternate Hughes Stallion?
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What did you think of the alternate Hughes Stallion?
Potential, but it's definitely a case where we need very comprehensive 'ground up' creation rules like we had in third edition.
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Or you know... you're in a regular game and each team member chips in some of the cash to get a team vehicle.
Are most of the aircraft impossible to get for a single runner? More or less, yes, that's kinda the point though as high end gear like that is more about a team purchase, even Missions play allows pooling of resources (with careful GM oversight).
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What did you think of the alternate Hughes Stallion?
Potential, but it's definitely a case where we need very comprehensive 'ground up' creation rules like we had in third edition.
If that happens, it'd be a dedicated E-book. The demand's just not there and the potential for abuse is *huge*. So, it'd be pretty far down on the list.
That said, I have a few ideas that I'll be pitching upstairs after Xmas.
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So now we enter the Price is Right portion of the thread!
How much would *you* pay for a heavily-armed combat chopper?
Looking at that artwork, it appears to be a two-seatter (pilot & co-pilot/gunner). In that case I would say 250,000 without the missiles (sold separately!), ammunition for the guns, or additional items. If it was more like a Mil Mi-24 (HIND) series helicopter, with additional seating in the body for say 4 metahumans, then I would go with 300,000 - 350,000. I don't need top of the line aircraft to be happy though; something along the lines of This Old Drone, but for obsolete models of aircraft and watercraft, or the 4th Edition Euro Wars vehicle supplement would be fantastic. Since it appears that decent mods for vehicles and drones will be in the supplement (THANK YOU!), those could be used to update older vehicles to not be one-hit wonders, and thus be affordable to a rigger while still being viable to use.
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How much would *you* pay for a heavily-armed combat chopper?
I actually found the Nissan Hound pretty fairly priced for that. Drop six seats and I think 375k would be fair.
EDITED TO ADD: I did remake the Hughes Stallion for my group as follows:
This workhorse utility helicopter can be fitted to carry cargo, though it slows the vehicle down. It is traditionally used as a people carrier or light cargo lifter.
Handling: 4
Speed: 4
Acceleration: 3
Pilot: 3
Body: 14
Armor: 8
Sensor: 3
Seats: - 7 (1 troll-sized)
Availability: 12
Price: 175,000
you might be surprised at how close you came to what the new Stallion will look like in Rigger 5 :) ... pretty close
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you might be surprised at how close you came to what the new Stallion will look like in Rigger 5 :) ... pretty close
Hah! As long as I'm close to right on the price, I'll be happy. And it will be something that you can easily throw a heavy weapon mount and two standards on.
In my game, one of the "competing" runner groups has it with an LMG mounted on one of the entrances so their street sam can stand behind it and shoot it manually. While wearing lots of red faux-leather armor and 14 ruby-handed pistols.
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One of my initial shocks when reading CRB was seeing the Ares Dragon and the Stalion being listed as similar vehicles so they would share stats. The same about the Nightsky and the Phaeton.
Will these be split up again? (Please say yes)
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More art from Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/134890309571/shadowrun-rigger-5-art):
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/399a474be38bb94612bd26514407461d/tumblr_inline_nz4c7oYJnm1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/8fd569fc53f5958a34cfd6330db948f3/tumblr_inline_nz4c8lK1bR1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
Not too keen on the x-sport candidate (how would he be in front of the plane...???), but quite liking the luxury yacht.
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the boat at the bottom looks to be a luxury yacht.
The big boy looks to be a cruise liner sized and if so, why would that be in the book?
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Has no one in your team ever said "we need a bigger boat"? ;)
In other news: I really, really need Rigger 5 to come out soon. Any ETA to be had yet?
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ok, fair point but I quit hunting Megalodon some time back. :P
At least with all the art popping up its a good sign it should be coming soon so let's hope the jingle plays true.....
On the First day of Christmas
Catalyst sent to me
Rigger 5 on Drivethrurpg......
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Even if you're not in the market for a boat like that, having the stats would be handy for a variety of kidnapping jobs.
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Agreed -- as a GM, "NPC gear" is useful to know too!
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Yeah, not everything in there is intended for PC use. MOST of it, yes. The majority, teh vast majority, heck, nigh-unto-the-entireity is for PCs, but there're a few "Hey GMs? Bet you could use this somewhere." bits in the mix as well.
Oh, and there's fluff. You definately want to read the fluff. :)
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If that happens, it'd be a dedicated E-book. The demand's just not there and the potential for abuse is *huge*. So, it'd be pretty far down on the list.
That said, I have a few ideas that I'll be pitching upstairs after Xmas.
I promise, if you build it, we will buy it.
Well, too be fair, I can't really speak for everyone else. But I can promise I will buy it, and it will definitely help push my group into repeated Shadowrun campaigns over the next few years.
There aren't a lot of game systems that provide that level of customization. Most avoid it, because its dangerous both for balance within the current game and for later content. However, it is also really, really helpful to GMs with an interest in unusual campaigns, and as a result really helps replayability. It means I can use the system to run "Shadowrun", "Street-level Shadowrun", "Shadowrun: Desert Wars", "Shadowrun: Space Age", "ShadowMechRun", "Shadowrun: COPS", "Shadowrun: MARS", "ShadowStarcraft", "ShadowTerminator", *and* plenty of other silly but fun options.
Heck, if you make this, I'll buy it twice.
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I need to see if the guys upstairs want to run an official contest. Like, "Show us your Americar!" or something, to see how people mod 'em up. Not to say that other vehicles aren't worthy, but if everyone used the same, it'd give some interesting takes on things... some people are gonna want tanks, some want zports cars, some want sneaky blend-in types, while others don't care so long as they can jump over Snake RIver while firing off explosive arrows. (Yeeeee haw!)
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/shadowrun/images/b/bf/Flag_of_CAS_since_2072.JPG)
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Start with one of the panel vans. See what comes of that. Drone launcher, hide in place, tank, pure transport. Any team will, sooner to later, use a van during a run.
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Start with one of the panel vans. See what comes of that. Drone launcher, hide in place, tank, pure transport. Any team will, sooner to later, use a van during a run.
I agree. Stepfan is the way to go
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Cover art (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/135329466756/shadowrun-rigger-50-cover)!!!
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/b21fd56bad6b31ceb59c1423639ab296/tumblr_inline_nzgrq7rOSQ1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
Great to see Echo's work again!!! ;D
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STOP TEASING.
I WANT IT IN ME.
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STOP TEASING.
I WANT IT IN ME.
You know, I was just having this mental conversation with a sports car for a Future Product. Toss in 'garage' and a few Jackpointers and it just got all smutty and covered in grease.
But that's for down the road!
For now?
It's commin' up, it's commin' up, it's commin' up... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAOR6ib95kQ)
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Is that a Spitfire drone? Because you know a squadron of mini Spitfire drones would be totally awesome. 8)
Or to keep with the season a squadron of mini X-Wing drones! Just make sure that one has the call sign Red 5.
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Is that a Spitfire drone? Because you know a squadron of mini Spitfire drones would be totally awesome. 8)
Or to keep with the season a squadron of mini X-Wing drones! Just make sure that one has the call sign Red 5.
Win, simply win. But can't Gold, Green, and Grey Squadrons get any love? ;)
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Okay, got it (badly) uploaded. Here was my three-minute sktech-pitch for Rigger 5. I can't *imagine* why they went with Echo instead of me. :D
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/Wakshaani/Wakshaani008/Not_Rigger_Five_zpsfka95n3n.jpg)
Hot roddin' Rigger behind the wheel, paniced person in the passenger seat, police chase with one car being shot up by a pop-up turret, another hitting an oil slick and crashing, police truck, a chopper, a police helicopter with door gunner, news copter, lots of flying drones, a drone dog, a rich gal shopping and getting the "Lois Lane" effect from the cars going past so quickly, a drone 'butler' holding all of her shopping while craning around to see the action... it's got everything!
As drawn by, you know ... a kindergardener.
But hey!
Harumph.
Harumph I sez!
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Even if you're not in the market for a boat like that, having the stats would be handy for a variety of kidnapping jobs.
A boat like that, you ought to get a map, not stats.
Who am I kidding? It's Shadowrun. Of course you need stats.
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Even if you're not in the market for a boat like that, having the stats would be handy for a variety of kidnapping jobs.
A boat like that, you ought to get a map, not stats.
Who am I kidding? It's Shadowrun. Of course you need stats.
Just make sure it's not a Q-Boat trying to lure pirates in, only to pop a lot more firepower than you were expecting. ;)
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Even if you're not in the market for a boat like that, having the stats would be handy for a variety of kidnapping jobs.
A boat like that, you ought to get a map, not stats.
Who am I kidding? It's Shadowrun. Of course you need stats.
*looks at Destruction spells*
*looks at Spirits boosting Spellcasting*
*looks at regents*
*looks at Edge*
"So, you know ... *hypothetically* ... just how much Body would you say the ACHE has?"
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Even if you're not in the market for a boat like that, having the stats would be handy for a variety of kidnapping jobs.
A boat like that, you ought to get a map, not stats.
Who am I kidding? It's Shadowrun. Of course you need stats.
Just make sure it's not a Q-Boat trying to lure pirates in, only to pop a lot more firepower than you were expecting. ;)
We would never do that.
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Even if you're not in the market for a boat like that, having the stats would be handy for a variety of kidnapping jobs.
A boat like that, you ought to get a map, not stats.
Who am I kidding? It's Shadowrun. Of course you need stats.
Just make sure it's not a Q-Boat trying to lure pirates in, only to pop a lot more firepower than you were expecting. ;)
We would never do that.
... now that you've blabbed it out loud.
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I need to see if the guys upstairs want to run an official contest. Like, "Show us your Americar!" or something, to see how people mod 'em up. Not to say that other vehicles aren't worthy, but if everyone used the same, it'd give some interesting takes on things... some people are gonna want tanks, some want zports cars, some want sneaky blend-in types, while others don't care so long as they can jump over Snake RIver while firing off explosive arrows. (Yeeeee haw!)
Sounds like a fun idea to me.
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And...it's live!!!:
(http://www.drivethrurpg.com/images/2216/168944.jpg)
PREMIUM RUSH
Spin your wheels over slick sprawl streets while drifting away from hot pursuit. Fly through narrow canyons ahead of missiles twisting their way after you. Shrink down to insect size to get an eye on places outsiders aren’t supposed to see. These are just some of the ways riggers jack up their seemingly unending adrenaline rush, as they show that the hardest shadowrunners to hit are the ones that stay in motion.
Rigger 5.0 is the ultimate hot-rod, jet plane, speedboat, and more companion for Shadowrun. With dozens of new vehicles and drones, more detailed rules for vehicle chase and combat, and customization rules, this is a book that every rigger needs to get ahead of the competition and stay there. Get the feel of laying down hot rubber in the cold shadows of the Sixth World and a taste for speed, danger, and a good, clean getaway.
Rigger 5.0 is for use with Shadowrun, Fifth Edition
DriveThruRPG (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/168944/Shadowrun-Rigger-50) - Digital
BattleCorps (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=rigger+5&x=0&y=0) - Digital + Print + LE
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*downloads and starts reading*
Why does it say compatible with Sixth Edition?
Just kidding :D
*goes back to reading*
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It's comming up, it's comming up, it's comming up...
IT'S THERE.
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woot, bought it and reviewing now...
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:( no built in ToC for the PDF.
At least the *book* has a good ToC :)
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An actual Table of Contents, yup!
I never remember to think about PDF clickable stuff tho. I'm still an old-school print kinda guy.
But look! CHapter headings! And sub-categories! It's a real boy now!
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Slots are back, lots of options for mods, vehicle stat modifications.... yeah, I'm pretty happy with this.
Thanks!
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The Mod Points/Mod Slots are nice, though one small quibble is they do not really define how much cargo space there really is inside the vehicle.
We do have seating and there is a mod to increase this by 50% and of course there is the smuggling compartment mod, but considering it is supposed to be... well.. concealable it is safe to assume it does not take up all of your cargo space or it would be noticeable because then you would be missing the whole trunk or similar.
This is especially noticeable as several models mention in their descriptions having more or less cargo space, but nothing really reflected in the actual stats.
So it's down to GM interpretation, but should not be to hard to handwave it most of the time unless the runners get stupid about trying to load everything plus the kitchen sink. :P
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Just bought it and have been flipping through it.
Very good first impression! The ratio between fluff and crunch seems great. New electronic Warfare actions, lots of mods, new vehicles (maybe a little on the low side), tables with all released vehicles.
One thing I noted though ... Where are the Ares City- and Mobmaster security vehicles? They have been iconic for many years yet now they are gone ... They could have been given the Phaeton treatment (nice job btw), but no. So a few tears there
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Isn't the Citymaster in the core book?
But, yeah, some -master variants would be nice. *takes notes* Perhaps in a Future Product...
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The Roadmaster, the cilivian version of the master series is, but none of the security variants are.
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The Roadmaster, the cilivian version of the master series is, but none of the security variants are.
D'oh! You are correct sir!
*jots that down* Definately nee dto fix that at some point, oh yes.
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I've spent the last 4 or 5 hours with Rigger 5.0 and I have to give it a big thumbs up! Lots of things to like in here but I especially want to praise the artwork. These vehicles look awesome. I would almost buy a collection of cards or an artbook. Very nicely done! There's some enjoyable fiction in here that highlights the rules, the gear and how to use them. The new toys look like a lot of fun, especially some of the cars and trucks. I didn't do more than skim the rules on modification and vehicle combat so I can't say a lot about them, I have to save something for later, right? Overall, I think this will be a welcome addition to Shadowrun and I am excited as a GM about the new things I can throw at the runners, hey, they can't have all the fun!
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Thank you!
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I've spent the last 4 or 5 hours with Rigger 5.0 and I have to give it a big thumbs up! Lots of things to like in here but I especially want to praise the artwork. These vehicles look awesome. I would almost buy a collection of cards or an artbook. Very nicely done! There's some enjoyable fiction in here that highlights the rules, the gear and how to use them. The new toys look like a lot of fun, especially some of the cars and trucks. I didn't do more than skim the rules on modification and vehicle combat so I can't say a lot about them, I have to save something for later, right? Overall, I think this will be a welcome addition to Shadowrun and I am excited as a GM about the new things I can throw at the runners, hey, they can't have all the fun!
I'll agree with this. I've only done a rigger once and that was a vehicle rigger. This book really makes me want to try a drone rigger and a pirate rigger!
Also love the jokes. Robocop references were great
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Looks great on a skim read... Would have liked more of the lovely art, perhaps the missing vehicle images will make it in to a pdf or those gear cards?!?
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Ah, I'm so happy to see the mods back in! This really makes me wanna play my rigger TM again. It's well written, I love the fluff pieces (especially the 8 or so "what's it like to be a rigger" bits) and it has a huge amount of content. Thank you, Catalyst!
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From Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/135418520936/shadowrun-rigger-50-is-here), so more FANTASTIC art:
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/f13b4dd7a39e0b8919651369600dd309/tumblr_inline_nziuvar66z1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/97f729810135427a0b3af735ef35c46c/tumblr_inline_nziux3tbub1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/811f324b51357dcac8fa1a2c7ae60e33/tumblr_inline_nziuzuim9C1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/df39daa88d84a0a1441d612feb6263a9/tumblr_inline_nzivbleZCQ1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
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Since I can't find it anywhere in the book, how many Mod Points does the Mitsuhama Akiyama have?
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So I'm really impressed with the content of this book. Great work! My only disappointed is that there is nothing on Cyborgs. Really was hoping it would be here since they are essentially riggers.
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Cyborgs usually pop up around the Cybermancy rules. Sounds like a fine thing for a Future Product to me. (Probably a PDF-only.)
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I'm still wading through this but Rigger 5.0 does look like one of the better rulebooks Catalyst has released to date.
At first blush the ratio of crunch to fluff feels better and it would seem that the majority of rigger related stuff is in here (unlike the truncated Data Trails that did squat for Technomancers and seemed to have a half-finished Host section).
Having a working ToC is also a welcome return.
Perhaps Catalyst has turned the corner on their previous shovelware and fan-fic blenderising?
Here's hoping@!
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I downloaded my copy from Drive Thru RPG and skimming through it looks like it has a lot of content.
However, my PDF has no bookmarks. Anyone else get that?
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I downloaded my copy from Drive Thru RPG and skimming through it looks like it has a lot of content.
However, my PDF has no bookmarks. Anyone else get that?
Yeah, I mentioned it earlier. Hopefully the errata'd version will be updated.
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The ToC is clickable though, so if you go to the ToC pages you can click on them directly.
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a half-finished Host section).
How so? Can you expand on this or post to where you may have already posted your thoughts on what you feel is missing or incompleteness?
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Quick divergence from Rigger 5 to answer the above.
The hosts foundation section was really cool but without a visual aid (say a map) it was pretty hard to grok the relationship between the bits of the host foundation.
There was virtually no mention of how Spiders tie into a host's operation (nor are they mentioned much in Rigger 5.0 as far as I can tell in my first skim).
Nor did Data Trails give any more details on how hosts are used as part of a corp-sec installation's physical security.
Also I think the Hosts section (and the rest of the book in general) would have benefitted from a section devoted entirely to "how to".
There are tons of posts on this forum (many by me) asking such common place things (well for an illegal hacker in 2070 anyhow) such as:
how do you:
-trace a call
-fake a camera feed
-design a host for your team's decker to hack
-steal a car/ boat/ drone/ whatever
-find someone from their com-code
-how does a technomancer direct connect to a host
-suppress an alarm sent via the matrix
-take over an elevator
-hack all wireless cameras nearby (building, street, city etc) to search for a particular face, car or other unique item that may have recently passed in front of them
etc etc
I know the number of combinations are endless (hence the rules) but given the unintuitive nature of the matrix it would be very helpful to just have a whole chapter dedicated to "how to" examples for common illegal matrix activities that runners commonly attempt to perpetrate (see tiny list above).
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Ok. I tried floating a "how to matrix" ebook but it didn't get much traction. I agree it would be useful. Probably won't happen, sorry :(
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I can't seem to get my head around how mods work in Rigger 5. Do vehicles and drones have separate mod rule systems? I can't figure out why that is. The drone mod section seems to act like drones only use the mods listed there, but the vehicle mod section acts like vehicles or drones can use the mods it lists. So do drones just have [Body] slots for mods, or [Body] slots in each category like vehicles do?
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Just Mod Points. Drones are *much* smaller than vehicles (with a handful of exceptions) and, as such, can't be modded as easily.
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Rigger 5.0 is super solid. Count me in as a big fan of the work.
My only disappointment was the lack of a multi-person helicopter that you don't break the bank to get. 160-200k for a cheap, kinda flimsy chopper that's usually used for tourist flyovers and sometimes heavily modified for 'runner purposes was what I was looking for.
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Just Mod Points. Drones are *much* smaller than vehicles (with a handful of exceptions) and, as such, can't be modded as easily.
So can drones use the mods listed in the vehicle mod section, spending Mod Points equivalent to the mod slots? I'm not sure how this interacts with the drones in the sidebar on page 155 where it says things like the Roto Drone having "Three extra Weapon Modification Slots."
In truth, I mostly want to figure out how to make a high flying sniper/surveillance drone. The Condor is close, but not exactly what I want. I was hoping to give a Roto Drone the Improved Economy mod and maybe a Sun Cell, probably greatly lowering Speed and Handling to afford room.
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I've a reasonably good imagination, but I'd have loved to seen some art for the Horizon-Double Revolution. I've got a Troll Techno that I think would *love* one. Who do I have to pay to get some art for that?
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Just Mod Points. Drones are *much* smaller than vehicles (with a handful of exceptions) and, as such, can't be modded as easily.
So can drones use the mods listed in the vehicle mod section, spending Mod Points equivalent to the mod slots? I'm not sure how this interacts with the drones in the sidebar on page 155 where it says things like the Roto Drone having "Three extra Weapon Modification Slots."
In truth, I mostly want to figure out how to make a high flying sniper/surveillance drone. The Condor is close, but not exactly what I want. I was hoping to give a Roto Drone the Improved Economy mod and maybe a Sun Cell, probably greatly lowering Speed and Handling to afford room.
Talk to your GM as you do have options:
These rules provide detailed options for drones and can be used as an optional rules system for adding modifications to them.
Players who do not want to use a separate system can use the rules provided in the Building the Perfect Beast chapter (p. 150).
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Can a vehicle actually be modded to be a drone?
I mean, remove passenger space for more processing power and other things a drone might need.
Say, fuel and ammo.
Also, I'd like to take this post as a chance to say that unlike certain previous books, this one's damn good. Clickable Toc, good amount of crunch, decent length, all around solid.
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I agree on this book being a general improvement layout-wise. One last thing I'm unsure about: Is Pilot like an autosoft or more like physical hardware? This mostly is me asking "If I buy Roto Drone Pilot 6, is that good for outfitting just one drone or a million?"
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Well, it said (I think in the vehicle section) that it requires hardware replacements.
Not sure, really, I think you'll have to pay multiple times, but if you have the right skills, you might circumvent part of the availability of future purchaes,
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I agree on this book being a general improvement layout-wise. One last thing I'm unsure about: Is Pilot like an autosoft or more like physical hardware? This mostly is me asking "If I buy Roto Drone Pilot 6, is that good for outfitting just one drone or a million?"
Both. :) Much like a computer, you can upgrade the software to a point, but eventually you have to rip out motherboards and start doing huge physical work. For drones, this is the +1 Pilot won't cost any Mod Points, but +2 or more starts eatting them up.
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So, does that translate into buying a software and then playing copies onto many drones if it's only +1? I think that's not what you meant, but it can't be excluded at this point. ;)
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No such luck. :) You gotta pay for each one.
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@Wakshaani
A question on the new matrix actions: Are those meant exclusively for RCCs or can you use them with a deck or commlink, too?
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Quick heads up...looks like the PDF has been updated with bookmarks (I got my notice from BattleCorps).
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Haven't had a chance to pick up a copy yet (waiting on money hitting the back) but I'm wondering if the modding information covers, or can be translated to, drones outside the core book (I.E. Bumblebee or the Hard Targets drones)
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Haven't had a chance to pick up a copy yet (waiting on money hitting the back) but I'm wondering if the modding information covers, or can be translated to, drones outside the core book (I.E. Bumblebee or the Hard Targets drones)
Yes, yes they can... ;D
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Haven't had a chance to pick up a copy yet (waiting on money hitting the back) but I'm wondering if the modding information covers, or can be translated to, drones outside the core book (I.E. Bumblebee or the Hard Targets drones)
Yes, yes they can... ;D
Ohh my... Now i really want to see what could be done to a Bumblebee...
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Quick heads up...looks like the PDF has been updated with bookmarks (I got my notice from BattleCorps).
Same, got a notification from DriveThru today. PDF bookmarks for everyone!
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Just Mod Points. Drones are *much* smaller than vehicles (with a handful of exceptions) and, as such, can't be modded as easily.
So can drones use the mods listed in the vehicle mod section, spending Mod Points equivalent to the mod slots? I'm not sure how this interacts with the drones in the sidebar on page 155 where it says things like the Roto Drone having "Three extra Weapon Modification Slots."
In truth, I mostly want to figure out how to make a high flying sniper/surveillance drone. The Condor is close, but not exactly what I want. I was hoping to give a Roto Drone the Improved Economy mod and maybe a Sun Cell, probably greatly lowering Speed and Handling to afford room.
Talk to your GM as you do have options:
These rules provide detailed options for drones and can be used as an optional rules system for adding modifications to them.
Players who do not want to use a separate system can use the rules provided in the Building the Perfect Beast chapter (p. 150).
Hm, so if I want a drone to use Vehicle mods, do I simply treat Slots as the mod's MP cost?
Should I treat the Roto Drone as starting with 7 MP, as a port of the "Treat its Body as 3 higher than its actual Rating for determining how many weapon mounts or customizations it can integrate." line from SR5 Core?
I'm trying to figure out how best to make a flying drone that A) uses a long ranged rifle and B) can quickly switch ammo types. That would mean using the Ammo Skip System from Hard Targets, but that means finding a rifle with a drum or cylinder... Are the Ares Sigma-3 or the Krupp Arms Kriegfaust probably the closest I'm going to find?
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Depends on what is "long ranged".
The options you named seem to be Assault Rifles, so your best bet would probably be the Shiawase Arms Monsoon from Gun Heaven 3.
It's not that legal, but when you mount it on a drone I guess that concerns out the window already.
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I want something in the range of a sniper rifle, but that's out the window when looking for a drum or cylinder, so I'm just looking for the next best thing. Ideally I want to switch from using Stick N Shock to hitting a target with a RFID tracker round without having to switch clips on a drone.
Sorry for the derail of the conversation. Back on topic: Who did the art of the Dodge Golaith? It and a few other vehicles have a really nice style. It and the Dodge Rhino both look like they want to start a bar brawl. Kudos to all the artists who worked on this, really.
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Hard Targets has the reloading-arm-drone. Maybe if you team them up you don't need the drum. Also, you could add an articulated arm to the drone change magazines (although that would look really, really, reaaaaaallllly ridiculous).
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So, the Drone Arm is supposed to basically be a Cyberarm, but half the cost and the stats are based on Strength=Drone Body and Agility=Pilot and you can modify up to Body * 2 Strength and Pilot * 2 Agility. There's a couple of follow-ups on that for me:
- Can I use the Agility & Strength Enhancements in the arm for a further +3 apiece?
- Can I implant a gun inside the drone cyberarm?
- Can I implant a melee weapon inside the drone cyberarm?
- More generally, can I put anything that consumes capacity inside the drone cyberarm?
There is a note that +Armor on the drone arm does nothing for the armor of the drone, but no other special notes, which leads me to believe that I can add a Drone arm to a drone and implant it with a Mossberg AM-CMDT for all the fun.
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As a GM, I'd be very wary about using arms to get around the MP values for drone weapons. Cyberarm capacity is really permissive while drone capacity (eqv.) is fairly restrictive. Using the former to circumvent the latter gets pretty cheesy. A full-sized arm with a grenade launcher on a fly spy should be one of those "final arbitrator" moments.
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As a GM, I'd be very wary about using arms to get around the MP values for drone weapons. Cyberarm capacity is really permissive while drone capacity (eqv.) is fairly restrictive. Using the former to circumvent the latter gets pretty cheesy. A full-sized arm with a grenade launcher on a fly spy should be one of those "final arbitrator" moments.
Oh, yeah, definitely understand that part of it.
My actual build was going for a Drone Arm on an Aeroquip Dustoff, so I figure the Drone Arm on that would totally have the capacity to put some ... stuff in it. And a fairly large arm on a Dustoff just makes sense so you can touch down, grab a body and shove it inside you, never to be seen again.
EDIT: That said, the main thing I was wondering about was Agility Enhancement. The implanted cyberweapons were just a bonus question after I started along the logical path. After all, if you just have a drone arm, you can totally pick up an SMG or a sword and start blazing or hacking.
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Important question here is if the upgrades to the arm are enhancements or customization, and I'm leaning towards the former.
A drone limb may have the base drone’s starting attributes
as much as doubled, no matter how many increases that
is. The limb attributes may not go higher. (This means a
Body 5 drone could have a strength increased from 5 to
10, ignoring the usual cap of +4 to an attribute, but may
not go higher.)
I think this is pretty clear.
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A drone limb may have the base drone’s starting attributes
as much as doubled, no matter how many increases that
is. The limb attributes may not go higher. (This means a
Body 5 drone could have a strength increased from 5 to
10, ignoring the usual cap of +4 to an attribute, but may
not go higher.)
I think this is pretty clear.
Dur. That is pretty clear.
Important question here is if the upgrades to the arm are enhancements or customization, and I'm leaning towards the former.
Oddly, I'm leaning towards the latter, because you automatically get a Body STR/Pilot AGI limb and for metahumans, out of the box is a 3/3 limb, which is more like "the average" with customizations taking it where you want. It's a pretty big nuyen-availability difference though. Customization is cheaper and easier to find. Enhancements are already more expensive and harder to find.
EDIT: At this point, I'm thinking customizations for increased and drone arms have a capacity of 0 is the intent. But I could be swayed by WoW.
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Well, if they had a capacity of 0, that raises the question of what
(Upgrades for the arm are at full price, however.)
means.
They can definitely equip weapons, as Wakshaani more or less has confirmed that already by theorycrafting around what skill you'd use when jacked in. Whether they use drone slots for the weapon, I do not know.
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Even if you're not in the market for a boat like that, having the stats would be handy for a variety of kidnapping jobs.
A boat like that, you ought to get a map, not stats.
Who am I kidding? It's Shadowrun. Of course you need stats.
Just make sure it's not a Q-Boat trying to lure pirates in, only to pop a lot more firepower than you were expecting. ;)
And now I want to do a shadowrun game based on Clive Cussler's "The Oregon Files"
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Can anyone guess how much it will cost to load the Smoke Projektor with a little bit more interesting stuff ? ;)
i.e. Tear gas
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I'd say 5 doses (the crop duster drone is 10) for simplicity's sake.
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Really liking the contents of this one. Soooo much stuff, interesting that drone weaponry had been simultaneously expanded (higher range of mount sizes) and nerfed (seriously reduced ammo capacity)
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Extended clips from Hard Targets don't cost MP ;)
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Extended clips from Hard Targets don't cost MP ;)
Hmmm, a Rating 2 Extended Clip + an extra ammo slot would give you around 3 magazine's worth of ammo... enough for most firefights.
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Hmmm, so the F-B Bumblebee isn't directly listed... but I guess it can be assumed it has: Three Extra Weapon Modification Slots, Heavy Weapon Mount, Stoner Arms M202 MMG, 100 round belt feed... leaves only 1 point left for modifications.
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Can I just add that it's a crying shame that the Revolution is 2 Body short of a General Grievous style Monobike/Walker hybrid?
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Sure. Regarding the Bumblebee, you can still increase all it's stats by 1 without going into the modpoints. Having just one of these with a handling/acceleration/pilot increase would make a rotodrone swarm quite dangerous. The swarm is really the only way to make weak drones worthwhile, otherwies I wouldn't use any for combat unless they had 12+ armour. I wonder which weapon you'd use if they have multiple.
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For which weapon stats to use for a Swarm, I'd go with Rigger's choice (or Pilot's choice), with all other drones cooperating to provide the bonus to the "main" weapon. And you can change which one is used each turn as the swarm intelligently re-configures itself to use the best weapon for the job. It's the hive mind version of teamwork.
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OK talking about swarms... what if you had a mix of mostly melee weapons and then a couple of choice range weapons. Swarm tactics would be most of them attacking at melee (small fast flyers with knives) to keep someone off balance while the swarm leader (something bigger like a Roto Drone) lines up a shot. Would the Swarm be able to handle mixed unit tactics like this? Also would it be enough to impose "Defender in Melee Against Ranged Attack" penalty?
And as was noted in the Errata thread... absolutely NO love for RCCs? At all? No special modifications? No alternate models? No attachments? NOTHING?!
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Despite all the options it added, the drone situation didn't really improve by much. Well just have to deal with it.
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And as was noted in the Errata thread... absolutely NO love for RCCs? At all? No special modifications? No alternate models? No attachments? NOTHING?!
nothing for security spiders and car theft too.
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Alright so here's a question.. is it possible to fit a Silenced/Suppressed weapon inside a Pop-Up drone mount?
Hmm, also perhaps something interesting... Hard Targets has a lot of mods to change the size of a weapon.
Would a Long Barrel make the weapon go up a Category?
Could you cram a weapon into a smaller mount by removing the stock and using a short/sawnoff barrel?
Needless to say I think that Trigger Removal and Electronic Firing are going to become standard modifications for drone mounted weapons.
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I have a complaint that can be remedied I think relatively easily. I need Rigger 5.1 The Vehicle Artwork please. All vehicles artistically rendered to help out a bit. Honestly, this is one of the minor issues that I have noticed. While we are in the fifth edition of Shadowrun a lot of the players today may not have played or owned any of the previous editions. I just think dedicating a book to artwork would be really awesome too. You may not even need to leave it to Rigger. I am sure there are some weapons from run & gun, some items in Street Grimoire, cyberdecks and other gizmos from Data Trails (and the core), and Chrome Flesh artwork to give a clearer picture of what the world of Shadowrun looks like today. Mind you I will still love the classic Second Edition and Third Edition core rulebook artwork. To me those really capture Shadowrun's essence. Another complaint I have and this might be the elitist Rigger in me is the fact that a lot of folks still don't get rigging. I wish I had the words to describe how deeply I got into being a rigger from 3rd edition.
I will try though...
Rigging shouldn't be about the greatest vehicle or drone in your arsenal or how much firepower you bring to bear in a situation. Riggers became riggers because it was daring and dangerous. So many people are almost as intuitively attuned to vehicles as technomancers or deckers are to the matrix. For them it is the sensation of the wind on their metal flesh as they race through the streets on a drone or motorbike. The thrum of an autocannon in time with a heartbeat or the utter freedom one feels by being one with the machine. Each drone is not merely a machine but like mages' spirits they embody the vision of a rigger. In third edition I had lots of drones and could do massive amounts of damage to my enemies. However, for me the most enjoyable experience was during a chase sequence between Seattle and Denver that occurred with my T-bird. Yes, it was combat and yes I did annihilate my pursuers but I like to think it was because I was thinking like a rigger not a pilot or driver. Also the fact that due to my descriptions not dice rolling because we only did rolls for attacks did I gain the advantage.
If you are going to be a Rigger understand that the machines you use are as much a part of you as you are to them.
Okay thoughts concluded must be because of the holiday that I feel so whimsical.
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I am just glad they left out Modular Drone Combine Option otherwise a certain pixie rigger would get 4 buddies all with their own Anthroform Drones to go play Voltron with in downtown Seattle. ;)
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Sooo... assuming the stat line of the Horizon Niozquito is correct, and that the Speaker and LED systems don't take up the 1 point of body... seems to me mounting tasers to those things would make the most horrifically annoying swarms in existence.
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I think that is not wrong.
Those drones are awesome.
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Sooo... assuming the stat line of the Horizon Niozquito is correct, and that the Speaker and LED systems don't take up the 1 point of body... seems to me mounting tasers to those things would make the most horrifically annoying swarms in existence.
Exactly what I thought :)
A swam of 6 Noizquitos with tasers ist much cheaper than a steel lynx and much more powerfull.
Swarm gives them +5 to Attack and a pilot of RCCs device rating (5 in my case = 10 avoidance dices).
When you activate their LEDs its nearly impossible to hit them:
-6 visual distraction (i assume this is the maximum modificator according to the envoirment modificator table)
-3 because of their size
-3 because they are moving at normal their speed of 3 (i guess it would be -6 when they are "running"?)
- other modificators due to distance, wind, sight modificators
Your enemys need at least 6 hits to get them down - except someone throws a grenade - but this would kill any other drone instantly too.
Even when you dont use them for fighting - they are insane, when you have equipped your other drone with ultrasound-sensors, so they aren't affected by the flashing lights.
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Given that Pilot programs are limited to running Autosofts at a Rating equal to or less than their own rating, is there a similar limitation on RCCs?
I.e. do you need a DR or DP or some other attribute at 6 in order to run a Rating 6 autosoft and share it with slaved drones, or can even the scratch-built junk run such a program?
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do you need a DR or DP or some other attribute at 6 in order to run a Rating 6 autosoft and share it with slaved drones, or can even the scratch-built junk run such a program?
I haven't seen it written, so I'd say not.
-6 visual distraction (i assume this is the maximum modificator according to the envoirment modificator table)
Noizquitos don't use the environmental modifier table. They use their own custom penalties; -2 speakers, -2 strobes - cumulative in such a way that three Nqs add up to -12.
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-6 visual distraction (i assume this is the maximum modificator according to the envoirment modificator table)
Noizquitos don't use the environmental modifier table. They use their own custom penalties; -2 speakers, -2 strobes - cumulative in such a way that three Nqs add up to -12.
;D you are right
By strictly following the RAW like a drones dog brain, this may be true. You can even take it a step further: There is not written that -12 is the limit, it's just the example of what 3 nqs can do. (or is there a general rule stating that a single modificator cant add up to more than 6?)
But I doubt that I will ever find an GM who is seeing it that way.
So im very happy about -6. Which is more than you get by fixing a flashpack onto your drone with duct tape :-)
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::)
Every dog brain has their day.
Flashpaks also use their own custom modifier, not Environmental Modifiers.
In any case, -10 is the maximum EM, as two penalties of the same rank raise the penalty to the next rank. It's one of the things I like about EMs - they're detailed, but applying them is simple. I just wish the writers would use them.
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Given that Pilot programs are limited to running Autosofts at a Rating equal to or less than their own rating, is there a similar limitation on RCCs?
I.e. do you need a DR or DP or some other attribute at 6 in order to run a Rating 6 autosoft and share it with slaved drones, or can even the scratch-built junk run such a program?
The RCC can run Autosofts up to its ... gah. Gonna blank. Processor rating? I do this withouta book handy, grf.
REGARDLESS, yes, there's a cap of its "processor" rating on Autosofts. That's a broad umbrella rule that you'll see refernced more in the future. (Much like a SKillwire 3 system makes a sad face at your Pistols 5 SKillsoft, so to does an RCC with a rating of 3 frown at your Maneuver 5 Autosoft.)
Unless something specificly calls it out otherwise, that umbrella rule is always in effect. (The RCC allows a drone to break that rule, so a rating 4 Autosoft run by your RCC *does* work for a Pilot 2 Drone, as teh RCC handles the execution of it.) ... software can never be rated higher than the computer running it.
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Given that Pilot programs are limited to running Autosofts at a Rating equal to or less than their own rating, is there a similar limitation on RCCs?
I.e. do you need a DR or DP or some other attribute at 6 in order to run a Rating 6 autosoft and share it with slaved drones, or can even the scratch-built junk run such a program?
The RCC can run Autosofts up to its ... gah. Gonna blank. Processor rating? I do this withouta book handy, grf.
Data Processing?
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The RCC noise reduction and sharing cannot be higher then the RCC device rating.
I.E.
DR 6 RCC can share 6 autosofts with no noise reduction or share 4 autosofts and have 2 noise reduction.
DR 1 RCC can share 1 program or have 1 noise reduction but not both.
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Wakshaani
That's kind of an important detail that isn't mentioned in any of the books so far. Device Rating cannot be modified, Data Processing can.
Unfortunately, this is yet another limitation on riggers that seems odd, since hackers and decks suffer no such restriction. Of course, hackers don't really have any programs that are affected by the Rating system to begin with...
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But I doubt that I will ever find an GM who is seeing it that way.
So im very happy about -6. Which is more than you get by fixing a flashpack onto your drone with duct tape :-)
Well, the book specifically mentions -12 for 3 drones, and to all actions. I mean, I'd be content with less as well, but that's whats there.
Personally I'd have preferred drones after the first only granting -1.
Btw, if it's a swarm, how does that work?
Oh, btw, you can also use a hardware mod to turn those into flying grenades. Kinda expensive grenades, though.
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Btw, if it's a swarm, how does that work?
Oh, btw, you can also use a hardware mod to turn those into flying grenades. Kinda expensive grenades, though.
As swarm has no effect on the leds and speakers, it's the same like having multiple single drones.
You can add mini weapon mount into body1 drones, this can mount an single shot grenade. (Rigger5.0 p, 124 - and of course it's not described more exactly). I would say that you could drop or even launch this grenade with this weapon mount. This would convert the drone into a very cheap bomber.
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Given that Pilot programs are limited to running Autosofts at a Rating equal to or less than their own rating, is there a similar limitation on RCCs?
I.e. do you need a DR or DP or some other attribute at 6 in order to run a Rating 6 autosoft and share it with slaved drones, or can even the scratch-built junk run such a program?
The RCC can run Autosofts up to its ... gah. Gonna blank. Processor rating? I do this withouta book handy, grf.
REGARDLESS, yes, there's a cap of its "processor" rating on Autosofts. That's a broad umbrella rule that you'll see refernced more in the future. (Much like a SKillwire 3 system makes a sad face at your Pistols 5 SKillsoft, so to does an RCC with a rating of 3 frown at your Maneuver 5 Autosoft.)
Unless something specificly calls it out otherwise, that umbrella rule is always in effect. (The RCC allows a drone to break that rule, so a rating 4 Autosoft run by your RCC *does* work for a Pilot 2 Drone, as teh RCC handles the execution of it.) ... software can never be rated higher than the computer running it.
Where is any of that published.
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The RCC can run Autosofts up to its ... gah. Gonna blank. Processor rating? I do this withouta book handy, grf.
REGARDLESS, yes, there's a cap of its "processor" rating on Autosofts. That's a broad umbrella rule that you'll see refernced more in the future. (Much like a SKillwire 3 system makes a sad face at your Pistols 5 SKillsoft, so to does an RCC with a rating of 3 frown at your Maneuver 5 Autosoft.)
Unless something specificly calls it out otherwise, that umbrella rule is always in effect. (The RCC allows a drone to break that rule, so a rating 4 Autosoft run by your RCC *does* work for a Pilot 2 Drone, as teh RCC handles the execution of it.) ... software can never be rated higher than the computer running it.
Where is any of that published.
[/quote]
Different places. Chrome Flesh for SKillsofts, Rigger 5 for Autosofts.
The general umbrella rule isn't laid out in print, I don't think, but is a design consideration and, as a general guideline, you should hold it in place for other situations. Computer hardware acts as a cap on software.
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Gaaah.
The problem with that, Wakshaani, is that such an umbrella rule isn't printed anywhere, or we wouldn't be here asking about it.
Until Rigger 5.0 we didn't have confirmation that Autosofts were restricted by the Pilot rating. And Rigger 5.0 itself makes no mention of the fact that an RCC has a similar limitation, which we still don't know if is Device Rating or Data Processing. I hope you understand how critical the lack of such an umbrealla rule in the core rulebook, not to mention Rigger 5.0 is, as without it people who don't read this forum and this thread in particular, have no idea such a rule even exists!
This is why rulebooks can't be written in a vacuum, and why I think Catalyst seriously needs to work on their consistency. Without that, any aspiring GM has to come up with their own interpretation of an already complex ruleset whose main rulebook is almost 500 pages and that has 6 core rule supplements already...
/rant
Chalk this up for something that desperately needs to be in the FAQ/Errata document for this book.
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Also just realized there was nothing to fix the GLARING weakness of Riggers unable to get effective Sleeze ranking for Run Silent still.
Seriously did you guys just fucking FORGET RCCs even existed or something?
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On the significant risk of sounding like a troll?
What's with all the butthurt?
Now, as for something constructive, what book would such a rule actually go into?
SR5 CRB?
Rigger 5?
Data Trails? *Violent cough*
And can't we slave an RCC to a commlink with a sleaze dongle? (Yes, that poses it's own problems, I know)
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When software is restricted to DR of the hardware:
What's about pilot software? Until now I thought the upgrade was just installing a new software. When you upgrade the pilot of a drone, will it need you to install a new processor, too?
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Well, yes, Rigger 5 more or less says as much.
Though that might only be if you increase it by more than one.
Which also raises the question if you can instal it on multiple drones.
And also if that rating is then the new "base" when it comes to calculating things like agility.
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Wakshaani confirmed in another thread that each purchase of a pilot upgrade is specific to a single drone. No buying a [drone] Pilot X and applying to all drones in your stable.
The modified Pilot rating does become the new Agility attribute and maximum autosoft rating, for example.
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The RCC can run Autosofts up to its ... gah. Gonna blank. Processor rating? I do this withouta book handy, grf.
REGARDLESS, yes, there's a cap of its "processor" rating on Autosofts. That's a broad umbrella rule that you'll see refernced more in the future. (Much like a SKillwire 3 system makes a sad face at your Pistols 5 SKillsoft, so to does an RCC with a rating of 3 frown at your Maneuver 5 Autosoft.)
Unless something specificly calls it out otherwise, that umbrella rule is always in effect. (The RCC allows a drone to break that rule, so a rating 4 Autosoft run by your RCC *does* work for a Pilot 2 Drone, as teh RCC handles the execution of it.) ... software can never be rated higher than the computer running it.
Where is any of that published.
Different places. Chrome Flesh for SKillsofts, Rigger 5 for Autosofts.
The general umbrella rule isn't laid out in print, I don't think, but is a design consideration and, as a general guideline, you should hold it in place for other situations. Computer hardware acts as a cap on software.
[/quote]
If it is not in a book, it is not a rule dude.
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Finn
Just in case you didn't know, Wakshaani is one of the writers of Rigger 5.0.
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Does Metahuman Adjustment (for gear or vehicles) mean anything in light of SR5's metahuman lifestyle costs?
I know there are penalties for using incorrectly adjusted items, but aren't the items you purchase adjusted to whatever you choose automatically?
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I'm just boggled that the Deckers aren't revolting, as this effectively means you have to have a Fairlight Paladin or Excalibur in order to run a rating 6 agent.
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Does Metahuman Adjustment (for gear or vehicles) mean anything in light of SR5's metahuman lifestyle costs?
I know there are penalties for using incorrectly adjusted items, but aren't the items you purchase adjusted to whatever you choose automatically?
Assuming you buy the thing, sure. Not everyone are quite that discerning ;)
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I get that the Harley-Davidson Scorpion with Metahuman Adjustment (Troll) is going to be tough to ride for non-trolls, but take something like the Echo Motors Zip, which comes with Metahuman Adjustment as a standard feature.
What purpose does non-specific Metahuman Adjustment serve beyond being fluff to double down on saying you can get gear customised to metatype?
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I think "Fluff" is a fine reason.
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So how long until the physical copy comes out? I'm thinking about getting the PDF but if the print copy will be out soon then I'll just wait
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So how long until the physical copy comes out? I'm thinking about getting the PDF but if the print copy will be out soon then I'll just wait
Don't hold your breath... still no word on a street date for the book before this yet.
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Why no tanks Rigger 5.0? Whyyy? :'(
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Tanks are for MilSpecTech or it's 5th Edition equivalent.
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Catalyst should spend less money filling their rules books with fluff and spend more money on making sure their rules work correctly.
Save the fluff for campaign setting books.
Sadly this will be ignored and Catalyst will go on with what they have been doing without any consideration for the playerbase whatsoever.
Witness the lack of errata after what, two years?
Witness their horrible/ lack of customer service.
Gaaah.
The problem with that, Wakshaani, is that such an umbrella rule isn't printed anywhere, or we wouldn't be here asking about it.
Until Rigger 5.0 we didn't have confirmation that Autosofts were restricted by the Pilot rating. And Rigger 5.0 itself makes no mention of the fact that an RCC has a similar limitation, which we still don't know if is Device Rating or Data Processing. I hope you understand how critical the lack of such an umbrealla rule in the core rulebook, not to mention Rigger 5.0 is, as without it people who don't read this forum and this thread in particular, have no idea such a rule even exists!
This is why rulebooks can't be written in a vacuum, and why I think Catalyst seriously needs to work on their consistency. Without that, any aspiring GM has to come up with their own interpretation of an already complex ruleset whose main rulebook is almost 500 pages and that has 6 core rule supplements already...
/rant
Chalk this up for something that desperately needs to be in the FAQ/Errata document for this book.
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So how long until the physical copy comes out? I'm thinking about getting the PDF but if the print copy will be out soon then I'll just wait
Don't hold your breath... still no word on a street date for the book before this yet.
I though so,. have they even released a date for Chromed Flesh yet?
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Tanks are for MilSpecTech or it's 5th Edition equivalent.
I'll take that. They just need to make it. Hell, I'll volunteer to do some freelance writing and editing if that's what it takes.
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Tanks are for MilSpecTech or it's 5th Edition equivalent.
I'll take that. They just need to make it. Hell, I'll volunteer to do some freelance writing and editing if that's what it takes.
With some work, you could just cross reference vehicles found in both 4th Edition and 5th Edition, then apply that knowledge to converting MilSpecTech 1 and 2 to 5th Edition rules. Heck, Pegasus (the guys who do the German version) might already have done it.
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So how long until the physical copy comes out? I'm thinking about getting the PDF but if the print copy will be out soon then I'll just wait
Don't hold your breath... still no word on a street date for the book before this yet.
I though so,. have they even released a date for Chromed Flesh yet?
Chrome flesh is out and has been Missions Legal for some time.
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Chrome flesh is out and has been Missions Legal for some time.
I cuddle it most nights!
Druuuuuugs. Druuuuuuuuuuugs. Pharmaceutical-grade druuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugs.
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With some work, you could just cross reference vehicles found in both 4th Edition and 5th Edition, then apply that knowledge to converting MilSpecTech 1 and 2 to 5th Edition rules. Heck, Pegasus (the guys who do the German version) might already have done it.
That works to some extent. Weapon damages for the any weapons larger than character-scale (i.e. cannons for MBTs, mortars, satellite weapons, etc) get really weird when compared to 5E's newer armor system, especially in comparison to hardened military armor. And speed, handling, and acceleration don't translate well at all on vehicle conversions.
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So how long until the physical copy comes out? I'm thinking about getting the PDF but if the print copy will be out soon then I'll just wait
Don't hold your breath... still no word on a street date for the book before this yet.
I though so,. have they even released a date for Chromed Flesh yet?
Chrome flesh is out and has been Missions Legal for some time.
The print copy? how long did it take to go from PDF to dead tree version?
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So how long until the physical copy comes out? I'm thinking about getting the PDF but if the print copy will be out soon then I'll just wait
Don't hold your breath... still no word on a street date for the book before this yet.
I though so,. have they even released a date for Chromed Flesh yet?
Chrome flesh is out and has been Missions Legal for some time.
The print copy? how long did it take to go from PDF to dead tree version?
Don't recall the release date, but rumour has it that the Limited Edition version of Chrome Flesh will have pages made from the same material they make the Dermal sheathing out of to keep with the Chrome Flesh motif. :)
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So how long until the physical copy comes out? I'm thinking about getting the PDF but if the print copy will be out soon then I'll just wait
Don't hold your breath... still no word on a street date for the book before this yet.
I though so,. have they even released a date for Chromed Flesh yet?
Chrome flesh is out and has been Missions Legal for some time.
The print copy? how long did it take to go from PDF to dead tree version?
Don't recall the release date, but rumour has it that the Limited Edition version of Chrome Flesh will have pages made from the same material they make the Dermal sheathing out of to keep with the Chrome Flesh motif. :)
So the print edition isn't actually out yet? damn the PDF came out in june ,if we still don't have a print copy yet then its going to be a real long wait for Rigger 5.
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Chrome Flesh available in print. Rigger 5.0 came out (digital format) mid-December.
@Fabe - not sure what you question is...???
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Chrome Flesh available in print. Rigger 5.0 came out (digital format) mid-December.
@Fabe - not sure what you question is...???
OH OK ,I miss understood what Sendaz was saying
Don't recall the release date, but rumour has it that the Limited Edition version of Chrome Flesh will have pages made from the same material they make the Dermal sheathing out of to keep with the Chrome Flesh motif.
The 'will have' bit to me sounder like Chromed flesh wasn't out yet.
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OH OK ,I miss understood what Sendaz was saying
Don't recall the release date, but rumour has it that the Limited Edition version of Chrome Flesh will have pages made from the same material they make the Dermal sheathing out of to keep with the Chrome Flesh motif.
The 'will have' bit to me sounder like Chromed flesh wasn't out yet.
Sendaz, I think you need to start using a [SARCASM] tag ;)
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OH OK ,I miss understood what Sendaz was saying
Don't recall the release date, but rumour has it that the Limited Edition version of Chrome Flesh will have pages made from the same material they make the Dermal sheathing out of to keep with the Chrome Flesh motif.
The 'will have' bit to me sounder like Chromed flesh wasn't out yet.
Sendaz, I think you need to start using a [SARCASM] tag ;)
I try to always include "rumour has it" for anything that may or may not be true, keeps the cubs on their toes. :P
Plus it would be pretty wicked if the LE version did come out with silvered reflective pages. ;)
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Why no tanks Rigger 5.0? Whyyy? :'(
There are tanks! They're just drone tanks. And teensy.
And *adorable*.
(http://allantk.free.fr/Sites/img/Dominion/Bonaparte.gif)
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And suddenly, the current state of drones became painfully obvious...
/sarcasm :D
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My main disappointments are the continued lack of comprehensive creation rules and that I wish you guys would negotiate a license to use the following drone.
(http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/anime/7/5799.jpg)
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There are tanks! They're just drone tanks. And teensy.
And *adorable*.
(http://allantk.free.fr/Sites/img/Dominion/Bonaparte.gif)
I thoroughly approve of these tanks -- but look forward to seeing some larger ones as well. ...Honestly, with the new mod system, and existing vehicles (cough cough Ares Roadmaster and SK Konstructor cough cough), we aren't really in need of new tanks so much as new tank-class antivehicle weaponry to deploy on them.
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we aren't really in need of new tanks so much as new tank-class antivehicle weaponry to deploy on them.
Indeed. Anti-armor is always finding new and exciting ways to kill tankers.
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Why stop at anti-armor, when you can use anti-matter?
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Why stop at anti-armor, when you can use anti-matter?
Expense mostly.
Love the AM, but the AM and containment units typically costs more than the target you are going to be shooting it at.
Which is fine if you are on someone else's account, but not so good coming out of your own pocket.
Oh, and critical glitches, nuff said.
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My main disappointments are the continued lack of comprehensive creation rules and that I wish you guys would negotiate a license to use the following drone.
(http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/anime/7/5799.jpg)
Tachikoma for the win :D
Funny thing, Production I.G., the animation studio that did the various Ghost in the Shell movies et TV series, created some artworks for the Japanese edition of Shadowrun (the one done by Groupe SNE in the 90s). Their work can be seen in the (non-canon) Tôkyô Sourcebook (http://fondationdraco.fr/shadowrun-au-japon-partie-3/).
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Finn
Just in case you didn't know, Wakshaani is one of the writers of Rigger 5.0.
I know he is. I don't mean to sound like a dick. I'm just frustrated that I have to go online, dig through pages of forum posts and learn directly from one of the writers what the hell is actually intended with a lot of these rules. I would still like to know what attributes are used for VR rigging and AR rigging. No where in the books is that basic thing laid out for me, in addition to a lot of rules being intuitive instead of simply listed out with coherent examples. This system is hard enough for me to run as it is. :-\
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Finn
Just in case you didn't know, Wakshaani is one of the writers of Rigger 5.0.
I know he is. I don't mean to sound like a dick. I'm just frustrated that I have to go online, dig through pages of forum posts and learn directly from one of the writers what the hell is actually intended with a lot of these rules. I would still like to know what attributes are used for VR rigging and AR rigging. No where in the books is that basic thing laid out for me. In addition to a lot of rules being intuitive instead of simply listed out with coherent examples. This system is hard enough for me to run as it is. :-\
Well for AR you use Pilot+reaction since you're not jumped into the vehicle,you're just getting assistance from a AR heads-up display. As for fully jumped into a vehicle using a control rig there is some debate over that. Some say you use logic+pilot because you're considered to be in VR. I say you use reaction+pilot since the whole point of a control rig is to be able to control a vehicle as if it were your flesh and blood body.
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Finn
Just in case you didn't know, Wakshaani is one of the writers of Rigger 5.0.
I know he is. I don't mean to sound like a dick. I'm just frustrated that I have to go online, dig through pages of forum posts and learn directly from one of the writers what the hell is actually intended with a lot of these rules. I would still like to know what attributes are used for VR rigging and AR rigging. No where in the books is that basic thing laid out for me. In addition to a lot of rules being intuitive instead of simply listed out with coherent examples. This system is hard enough for me to run as it is. :-\
Well for AR you use Pilot+reaction since you're not jumped into the vehicle,you're just getting assistance from a AR heads-up display. As for fully jumped into a vehicle using a control rig there is some debate over that. Some say you use logic+pilot because you're considered to be in VR. I say you use reaction+pilot since the whole point of a control rig is to be able to control a vehicle as if it were your flesh and blood body.
Exactly. No one knows and that is a basic element of a core Archetype. :o
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Finn
Just in case you didn't know, Wakshaani is one of the writers of Rigger 5.0.
I know he is. I don't mean to sound like a dick. I'm just frustrated that I have to go online, dig through pages of forum posts and learn directly from one of the writers what the hell is actually intended with a lot of these rules. I would still like to know what attributes are used for VR rigging and AR rigging. No where in the books is that basic thing laid out for me. In addition to a lot of rules being intuitive instead of simply listed out with coherent examples. This system is hard enough for me to run as it is. :-\
Well for AR you use Pilot+reaction since you're not jumped into the vehicle,you're just getting assistance from a AR heads-up display. As for fully jumped into a vehicle using a control rig there is some debate over that. Some say you use logic+pilot because you're considered to be in VR. I say you use reaction+pilot since the whole point of a control rig is to be able to control a vehicle as if it were your flesh and blood body.
Exactly. No one knows and that is a basic element of a core Archetype. :o
yea it would be nice if they told us if its logic+pilot or reactions+pilot while jumped in. by the way for others reading this where does it say you uses logic in place of other attributes while in VR? I took a look over the matrix section of the book but didn't find anything.
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yea it would be nice if they told us if its logic+pilot or reactions+pilot while jumped in. by the way for others reading this where does it say you uses logic in place of other attributes while in VR? I took a look over the matrix section of the book but didn't find anything.
This has been covered. It's Reaction. Aaron is Word of God on this. (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg238706#msg238706)
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yea it would be nice if they told us if its logic+pilot or reactions+pilot while jumped in. by the way for others reading this where does it say you uses logic in place of other attributes while in VR? I took a look over the matrix section of the book but didn't find anything.
This has been covered. It's Reaction. Aaron is Word of God on this. (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg238706#msg238706)
Excellent! Thanks falar. Glad to know I was right.. So is non-jumped in piloting is logic?
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Excellent! Thanks falar. Glad to know I was right.. So is non-jumped in piloting is logic?
Control Device piloting? That would still be Reaction + Pilot (What Have You).
Pilot is one of the very few skills that are the same across all modes due to the special powers of the control rig. The only thing that changes is your limit. Manual control is straight Handling or Speed (whichever is correct). With AR help (or Control Device in AR) it's Handling/Speed + 1. In VR, it's Handling/Speed + 2.
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Excellent! Thanks falar. Glad to know I was right.. So is non-jumped in piloting is logic?
Control Device piloting? That would still be Reaction + Pilot (What Have You).
Pilot is one of the very few skills that are the same across all modes due to the special powers of the control rig. The only thing that changes is your limit. Manual control is straight Handling or Speed (whichever is correct). With AR help (or Control Device in AR) it's Handling/Speed + 1. In VR, it's Handling/Speed + 2.
What about with no control rig at all? do characters piloting in VR still use reactions or is now logic?
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Pilot: X rolls for vehicle tests are never not Reaction, unless explicitly stated as such.
That doesn't mean a GM cannot call for a Logic based roll.
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Pilot: X rolls for vehicle tests are never not Reaction, unless explicitly stated as such.
That doesn't mean a GM cannot call for a Logic based roll.
OK its just that I've seen people here argue that all physical based tests/rolls become logic based while in full VR including piloting rolls
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While the knee jerk Reaction is to say it should change to Logic, SR Logic says it stays as Reaction unless situation demands otherwise. :P
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Very punny, Sendaz :)
Fabe
Sendaz is right; people, like myself, who argue for using mental stats when in VR do so from a purely house rule perspective.
The book is somewhat clear on which attributes to use, I just don't think it makes any sense.
When jumped in, Pilot is always reaction, but stealth uses intuition, and gunnery may or may not use logic depending on how you interpret "remote operation". In other words, there are some discrepancies, which is why I personally use the astral attribute substitution table for VR rigging and use whatever the base skill is linked to but substited for mental attribute.
Make no mistake, though; this is 100% a house rule.
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Pilot: X rolls for vehicle tests are never not Reaction, unless explicitly stated as such.
That doesn't mean a GM cannot call for a Logic based roll.
OK its just that I've seen people here argue that all physical based tests/rolls become logic based while in full VR including piloting rolls
More than likely they're trying to to shoehorn it that way all the time because Gunnery is a Logic skill.
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As a Rigger, your key attributes are Intuition, Logic and Reaction (in just about that order) with Willpower trailing for Biofeedback Damage. The justifications are thusly:
- Intuition - one of the key roles of a Drone Rigger is recon. Intuition is linked to Perception checks, so you need a good Intuition. This is also good for Navigation checks and Matrix Initiative. One of your most important attributes.
- Logic - for a combat rigger, this is important for Gunnery. If you want to also splash into technical skills like Mechanics, Armory, Hardware and Demolitions, Logic is key to all of those. It's probably one of the two lower stats.
- Reaction - for all riggers, this is important because of two reasons - Pilot X is always a Reaction roll, so any time you're maneuvering, it's always Reaction. Secondly, when jumped in, this is part of your defense test. One reason that you could dump this a little is that the Control Rig/Control Rig Boosters/Optimization help on all the tests you'd need it for - except for defense.
- Willpower - only for a long stun track and soaking biofeedback damage. It's as important as Body is in meatspace. Possibly more so because meatspace has Armor values, which are trivially easy to get to 14 or so. In the Matrix, you have Firewall, which almost impossible to get to 10.
This leads me to generally recommend that Riggers experiment with a Psyche (+1 Intuition/+1 Logic) and Cram (+1 Reaction, +1d6 Initiative) speedball most of the time. If you get it with Narco, that's +2 to most of the important attributes, which means that Reaction Enhancers II, Cerebral Boosters II, Cerebellum Boosters II and the drugs is all you need to get the maximum +4 Augmented Attribute.
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Very punny, Sendaz :)
Fabe
Sendaz is right; people, like myself, who argue for using mental stats when in VR do so from a purely house rule perspective.
The book is somewhat clear on which attributes to use, I just don't think it makes any sense.
When jumped in, Pilot is always reaction, but stealth uses intuition, and gunnery may or may not use logic depending on how you interpret "remote operation". In other words, there are some discrepancies, which is why I personally use the astral attribute substitution table for VR rigging and use whatever the base skill is linked to but substited for mental attribute.
Make no mistake, though; this is 100% a house rule.
Well that clears things up. Personally I'm going to go by rules as written when there is no contradiction . And so far the only contradiction is with gunnery .
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- Willpower - only for a long stun track and soaking biofeedback damage. It's as important as Body is in meatspace. Possibly more so because meatspace has Armor values, which are trivially easy to get to 14 or so. In the Matrix, you have Firewall, which almost impossible to get to 10.
This leads me to generally recommend that Riggers experiment with a Psyche (+1 Intuition/+1 Logic) and Cram (+1 Reaction, +1d6 Initiative) speedball most of the time. If you get it with Narco, that's +2 to most of the important attributes, which means that Reaction Enhancers II, Cerebral Boosters II, Cerebellum Boosters II and the drugs is all you need to get the maximum +4 Augmented Attribute.
Don't forget you get the programs encryption, biofeedback filter and shell to help against biofeedback damage too.
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Drive Thru has the pdf updated. Anyone know what changed?
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Drive Thru has the pdf updated. Anyone know what changed?
Check the price for Drone Weapon Mounts. That'd be the first thing I'd do. Can't get it myself yet.
Then check the line after Pilot upgrades for Drones and see if it now lists that they can run a number of autosofts equal to their rating.
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quick question. did any of the core book drones get any standard upgrades added to them? I'm working on 3d modeling some drones and just want to know there is any new features I should be putting on them.
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Yes, there is a table on p. 155.
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Yes, there is a table on p. 155.
I actually don't have rigger 5 yet. Did the weapon mount on the doberman get upgraded to a 360 arc?
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No, it's described as flexible meaning it can move in a 90 degree cone
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Might anyone know if, with the new Black Book, we are going to get monowheel bikes again?
I am seriously missing my Horizon-Doble Revolution right now.... :-(
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The Revolution is in Rigger 5.0; page 42 and 43.
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The Revolution is in Rigger 5.0; page 42 and 43.
YES!
*points at the old battered Dodge Scoot* Soon, my arch-enemy... soon, you will be headed for the scrap heap!
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The Revolution is in Rigger 5.0; page 42 and 43.
YES!
*points at the old battered Dodge Scoot* Soon, my arch-enemy... soon, you will be headed for the scrap heap!
Wait, you showed up for meetings with Mr. Johnson on a Dodge Scoot? :o
Wouldn't it have saved face if you took the bus instead? ;D
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The Revolution is in Rigger 5.0; page 42 and 43.
YES!
*points at the old battered Dodge Scoot* Soon, my arch-enemy... soon, you will be headed for the scrap heap!
Wait, you showed up for meetings with Mr. Johnson on a Dodge Scoot? :o
Wouldn't it have saved face if you took the bus instead? ;D
Probably would have been awkward given his Johnson came and left on the bus. :P
Example 31 from "Signs that this might not be a good Run"
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Does standard equipment listed on the vehicles count as used modification slots?
Why do the rules on vehicle modification for armor tell us that the maximum you can add would be equal to BOD when you need at least Rating*2 in modslots?
So technically while being allowed to increase vehicle armor by the value of its BOD, the technical maximum is BOD/2 for standard armor. Which makes most vehicles worse in soaking damage than mil-spec armor.
Why has personal armor become more efficient than vehicle armor?
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Does standard equipment listed on the vehicles count as used modification slots?
Why do the rules on vehicle modification for armor tell us that the maximum you can add would be equal to BOD when you need at least Rating*2 in modslots?
So technically while being allowed to increase vehicle armor by the value of its BOD, the technical maximum is BOD/2 for standard armor. Which makes most vehicles worse in soaking damage than mil-spec armor.
Why has personal armor become more efficient than vehicle armor?
because; catalyst
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This is just my understanding, so take it with a grain of salt.
Does standard equipment listed on the vehicles count as used modification slots?
From my analysis of drones and vehicles that start with standard equipment, standard equipment is already included, and the mod slots available are the slots that remain *after* standard equipment (which occasionally means that some vehicles and drones may have started with extra slots). This is why many drones and vehicles start with fewer slots than their body would normally suggest.
Why do the rules on vehicle modification for armor tell us that the maximum you can add would be equal to BOD when you need at least Rating*2 in modslots?
So technically while being allowed to increase vehicle armor by the value of its BOD, the technical maximum is BOD/2 for standard armor. Which makes most vehicles worse in soaking damage than mil-spec armor.
Why has personal armor become more efficient than vehicle armor?
The maximum is actually (Vehicle's base armor) + (Bod / 2). Vehicle mods are aftermarket add-ons, and modify the existing vehicle, so any vehicle armor you add is in addition to what comes standard on there. This typically means that vehicles can have very high armor ratings -- like the Dodge Rhino, with its base 14 armor and 24 body, can theoretically be modified to carry a whopping 36 armor.
And the phrasing of "The most armor any vehicle can add is equal to vehicle Body" means that if for whatever reason you managed to get a vehicle with a lot of extra mod slots, you could not add more additional armor to the vehicle than equal to the vehicle's body (so a Bod 3 vehicle with +3 additional mod slots could still only have +3 armor added to it). It sounds unlikely, but this ruling covers their bases in case someone adds a very mod-able vehicle later on that could theoretically break this rule.
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The maximum is actually (Vehicle's base armor) + (Bod / 2). Vehicle mods are aftermarket add-ons, and modify the existing vehicle, so any vehicle armor you add is in addition to what comes standard on there. This typically means that vehicles can have very high armor ratings -- like the Dodge Rhino, with its base 14 armor and 24 body, can theoretically be modified to carry a whopping 36 armor.
Sorry, it's only 26 armor (14+12), where Heavy Milspec gets to a Hardened 23. Getting into the latter is more safe.
But at least vehicles give more protection than walls because of adding their armor to the passengers armor when getting attacked.
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This is just my understanding, so take it with a grain of salt.
Does standard equipment listed on the vehicles count as used modification slots?
From my analysis of drones and vehicles that start with standard equipment, standard equipment is already included, and the mod slots available are the slots that remain *after* standard equipment (which occasionally means that some vehicles and drones may have started with extra slots). This is why many drones and vehicles start with fewer slots than their body would normally suggest.
Why do the rules on vehicle modification for armor tell us that the maximum you can add would be equal to BOD when you need at least Rating*2 in modslots?
So technically while being allowed to increase vehicle armor by the value of its BOD, the technical maximum is BOD/2 for standard armor. Which makes most vehicles worse in soaking damage than mil-spec armor.
Why has personal armor become more efficient than vehicle armor?
The maximum is actually (Vehicle's base armor) + (Bod / 2). Vehicle mods are aftermarket add-ons, and modify the existing vehicle, so any vehicle armor you add is in addition to what comes standard on there. This typically means that vehicles can have very high armor ratings -- like the Dodge Rhino, with its base 14 armor and 24 body, can theoretically be modified to carry a whopping 36 armor.
And the phrasing of "The most armor any vehicle can add is equal to vehicle Body" means that if for whatever reason you managed to get a vehicle with a lot of extra mod slots, you could not add more additional armor to the vehicle than equal to the vehicle's body (so a Bod 3 vehicle with +3 additional mod slots could still only have +3 armor added to it). It sounds unlikely, but this ruling covers their bases in case someone adds a very mod-able vehicle later on that could theoretically break this rule.
Wakashaani confirmed that the table is correct at the end of the book and the rhino section in the mil/sec section is wrong. It has lower body and armor than the RoadMaster.
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So it's 18+9 = 27 armor for heaviest possible armor on a truck then (Roadmaster, body 18 armor 18 base).
I'm still not able to construct a single realistic case where the "additional armor capped by body" rule is of any consequence with armor using rating x2 modification slots... ???
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Sorry, it's only 26 armor (14+12), where Heavy Milspec gets to a Hardened 23. Getting into the latter is more safe.
But at least vehicles give more protection than walls because of adding their armor to the passengers armor when getting attacked.
You're correct, I can't math.
However, there's a line in Vehicle Damage on p205 of the 5th Edition Core Rulebook that states "If the attack’s modified DV is less than the vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied." This is essentially exactly the same as Hardened Armor, and therefore any Vehicle with armor (including total armor after mods) of 23 or higher is equivalent or better than milspec armor.
So it's 18+9 = 27 armor for heaviest possible armor on a truck then (Roadmaster, body 18 armor 18 base).
I'm still not able to construct a single realistic case where the "additional armor capped by body" rule is of any consequence with armor using rating x2 modification slots... ???
Like I said, if there are more mod slots than there is body (which is possible with low-body vehicles... but really, I think this is more of a 'just in case' rule), armor is still capped at the vehicle's body. So a body 1 vehicle with +3 slots would be capped at +1 armor rather than a theoretical maximum of +2.
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However, there's a line in Vehicle Damage on p205 of the 5th Edition Core Rulebook that states "If the attack’s modified DV is less than the vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied." This is essentially exactly the same as Hardened Armor, and therefore any Vehicle with armor (including total armor after mods) of 23 or higher is equivalent or better than milspec armor.
No, it's exactly the same as the old Hardened Armor from 4th edition. In 5th Hardened Armor (the critter power referencend in the mil-spec armor) gives auto soaking hits for damage high enough in addition to ignoring low damage attacks.
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No, it's exactly the same as the old Hardened Armor from 4th edition. In 5th Hardened Armor (the critter power referencend in the mil-spec armor) gives auto soaking hits for damage high enough in addition to ignoring low damage attacks.
True, it does miss out on the half-armor auto soaking hits. I don't consider that a crippling difference (27 Vehicle Armor doesn't reduce all damage by as much as 23 Hardened Armor from a milspec suit would, but it does completely block more available weapons (as 28 damage is reasonably hard to reach)), but you're right, vehicle armor is less effective than milspec armor.
Maybe a solution would be a houserule for vehicles (or maybe just milspec vehicles?) that gives them the official Hardened Armor rule.
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It depends. With armor values near or above 20 Hardened Armor would have a huge impact on the effectiveness. Balance could become nigh impossible.
I think treating Mil-Spec armor as vehicle armor could be a better approach.
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To show this impact, let's do a demonstrative example ;D
An upgraded Ares Roadmaster (body 18, armor 27) getting hit by a 28 DV attack soaks on average (18+27) / 3 and takes 13 boxes of damage.
A normal metahuman (body 3) in heavy mil-spec battle-armor (+helmet) (armor 23) soaks 23 / 2 (hardened armor auto hits) + (3+23) / 3 and takes ~ 7 boxes of damage.
Of course these numbers are absurdly high anyway, so the impact on actual play is limited.
The damage to the roadmaster doesn't seem out of line (other than the usual problem we know from 4th edition: damage vs. hardened armor is miss-or-kill most of the time. something that the new hardened armor auto-hit rule in 5th edition should compensate for).
(Same roadmaster given the hardened armor rule would soak 28.5 damage on average btw...)
It's the mil-spec armor (giving an average metahuman more than 7 times his body in armor) that's completely ridiculous. ;D
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I think at most I would look at using mod slots to convert X Armor points to Hardened Armor. This would give a choise of either increasing the ammount of armor, or improving the effectiveness if the armor.
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To show this impact, let's do a demonstrative example ;D
An upgraded Ares Roadmaster (body 18, armor 27) getting hit by a 28 DV attack soaks on average (18+27) / 3 and takes 13 boxes of damage.
A normal metahuman (body 3) in heavy mil-spec battle-armor (+helmet) (armor 23) soaks 23 / 2 (hardened armor auto hits) + (3+23) / 3 and takes ~ 7 boxes of damage.
Of course these numbers are absurdly high anyway, so the impact on actual play is limited.
Honestly, that's what I've been thinking. A 28 DV hit is actually fairly hard to come by (save by rockets, LMGs and HMGs, and other things that it would make sense would damage vehicles); as is milspec armor in general. The upgraded Roadmaster is not (Roadmasters are easy to get), but honestly finding ways to handle a heavily armored Roadmaster should be a decent challenge anyway.
The fact that a standard metahuman in heavy milspec armor is less injured by that than an equivalent vehicle may be a bit much. I could see equal (given that this is the heaviest of milspec armor, and is practically power armor for most purposes), but not better.
I agree with you and Lucean, the easiest fix would be to treat milspec armor like vehicle armor and remove the bonus successes that Hardened Armor provides.
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One should note, however, that the standard metahuman in the heavy Milspec armor is practically the same size as a troll. Also note that we haven't seen actual milspec vehicles come out yet. You're comparing elite military gear to upgraded civilian/corpsec gear. Wait until we see main battle tanks and the like before crying foul.
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One should note, however, that the standard metahuman in the heavy Milspec armor is practically the same size as a troll. Also note that we haven't seen actual milspec vehicles come out yet. You're comparing elite military gear to upgraded civilian/corpsec gear. Wait until we see main battle tanks and the like before crying foul.
Ok, let's see them then! :)
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One should note, however, that the standard metahuman in the heavy Milspec armor is practically the same size as a troll. Also note that we haven't seen actual milspec vehicles come out yet. You're comparing elite military gear to upgraded civilian/corpsec gear. Wait until we see main battle tanks and the like before crying foul.
Ok, let's see them then! :)
All in good time...
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Note that we haven't seen actual milspec vehicles come out yet. You're comparing elite military gear to upgraded civilian/corpsec gear. Wait until we see main battle tanks and the like before crying foul.
Well... we have multi-million ¥, availabilty 24+F thunderbirds. That shouldn't be so far from mil-spec...
The Gryphon is described as "one of the most lethal combat aircraft in recent years" and with a maximum of additional armor (body 24, armor 36) it still takes (slightly) more boxes of damage on average from a shot able to penetrate it's armor (37DV+) than a body 3 metahuman in heavy armor. :o
The 5th edition version of Hardened Armor is a nice idea to counteract the "either miss or insta-kill" situations most of us know from fighting medium to high force spirits in 4th. But while it's a perfectly working system for lower armor ratings the ability to shrug off an anti-vehicle missile to the head is just too ridiculous, no matter what kind of power creep we see in future vehicles/weapons ;D
Btw... an average human in heavy mil-spec armor has the ability to soak damage comparable to a dragon. When was the last time you really used stats for a dragon instead of just using it as a plot device? ;)
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Aircraft are ALWAYS going to be more vulnerable than other vehicles, RiggerBob. Armor increases mass, and increased mass means it takes more energy to move. That doesn't mean much on the ground or at sea, since big, heavy engines are fine there, but in the air, where you have to keep going a certain speed or you (literally) fall out of the sky, mass is very much an issue. So combat aircraft are never going to match a main battle tank for shrugging off hits. Their primary defense isn't armor, but the fact that a target moving at Mach speeds is damn near impossible to hit without expensive guidance systems on your missiles or going that fast yourself.
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But with Heavy Mil-Spec locking in at merely 35,000 ¥ it suggests to be quite inexpensive, considering the fact that each armor has to be custom fit for ist wearer and can't be mass produced.
So with that price tag it's hard to explain that such tech isn't already in use for security vehicles.
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Yeah, Mil-Spec armor seems way too cheap considering a Pi-Tac systems, even after errata, are FAR more expensive for a piece of tech that improves communication vs a piece of tech that literally stops bullets.
Mil-Spec armor in general has some serious issues, most of which has already been mentioned. The only real drawback is that if you wear it in any kind of civilized area, the GM should by all rights be throwing everything and the kitchen sink at you.
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But with Heavy Mil-Spec locking in at merely 35,000 ¥ it suggests to be quite inexpensive, considering the fact that each armor has to be custom fit for ist wearer and can't be mass produced.
So with that price tag it's hard to explain that such tech isn't already in use for security vehicles.
Of course, vehicular armor is also a bit more "boom or bust" than the more ablative personal armor.
For instance, Hardened Armor with an AV of 15 vs a vehicle of Armor 15, giving both the armor's wearer and the vehicle a Body of 12, you'll find that the vehicular armor is generally better, as anything with a damage code of 15 or less pings off with no rolls required, while the Hardened Armor wearer can still be hurt by heavy pistols. Not *easily* mind you, but a damage code of 9 with -2 AP (A reasonable Predator with better ammo) can tink away. A stronger attack, such as a DV 12 with -3 AP, still dinks off the vehicle but is now starting to deal some damage to the armored guy.
The difference comes when you have something that can HURT the vehicle, like a DV 20 hit. Once you get past the vehicle's armor, you're doing enough that it probably flatlines.
(Which is why the older version of Hardened Armor for critters went away. It made big critters immune to everything, right up until something splattered them utterly. No nickle and dime shots there!)
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Hardened Armor is strictly better than Vehicular Armor. Hardened Armor has both the ping off if you don't beat the armor factor and the half-of-the-armor in automatic hits factor. So, literally, a pistol facing Vehicular Armor v. Hardened Armor behaves exactly the same, except the Hardened Armor gets automatic hits if the pistol manages to beat the armor threshold.
Vehicular Armor 15 vs 20 DV = 20 - (15 dice, so about 5) = 15P damage
Hardened Armor 15 vs 20 DV = 20 - 7 - (15 dice, so about 5) = 8P damage
Always choose Hardened Armor over Vehicular Armor of the same value. It's twice as good.
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Wakshaani, Hardened Armor also doesn't roll when the adjusted DV is too low.
So with a heavy pistol you need a good amount of net hits to force the roll.
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I'll have to double check, but I'm *failry* certain that Hardened doesn't have the 'ping' factor of vehicular armor. It did in 4th, but I know that was a big bugaboo for 5th. I think the auto-hits was put in place of that effect.
Now you have me doubting my own head. Curse you! :)
Where's my copy of Run n Gun...
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Waakshani
Lucean and falar are right; Mil-Spec armor uses the Hardened Armor critter power rules.
Hardened mil-spec battle armor is fully enclosed and may thus take modifications that require this. It is treated as having the Hardened Armor critter power. No additional armor may be worn with military-grade battle armor (unless paid for by Essence) aside from the helmet listed below.
Hardened Armor
There’s Armor, and then there’s Armor. This is the latter. This power provides its rating in Armor, and functions just like the Armor power. It differs from the Armor power as follows.
If the modified Damage Value of an attack is less than the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), the attack does no damage. Don’t make a Damage Resistance test for the critter; it might not even notice the attack was made in the first place.
If the modified Damage Value of an attack is greater than the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), then perform a Damage Resistance test for the critter as normal. Additionally, half of the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP, rounded up) counts as automatic extra hits on this test.
The latter bolded part is what makes Mil-Spec armor so powerful, in-line with spirits. This is also why drones and other vehicles are comparatively weaker when it comes to similar Armor Values; characters in Mil-Spec armor and Spirits get half AV as auto-hits AND roll a normal damage resistance, vehicles just roll damage resistance normally. The higher body values of vehicles (not drones) are not enough to offset this except in extremely high body situations (none come to mind except tanks, which haven't been released yet).
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And had to check, and sure enough, it's done the old way (ping) plus the auto half-hits.
Bugger.
I could have *sworn* that was changed.
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If it had changed, that would make high-Force spirits MUCH less of an issue to deal with. Which I'd be fine with. Once a spirit hits about Force 6, they become nigh on impossible to touch for a mundane without some serious firepower. Force 7 or 8? Run like flint.
This isn't the first time I've seen this misconception. Most recently, I saw it in someone's comprehensive set of house rules for drones.
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If the intent was to remove the rule that ignores DV less than AV, what was the alternative?
If modified DV does not exceed modified AV roll damage resistance AND add half modified AV auto hits, and if modified DV does exceed modified AV just roll damage resistance as normal?
Or roll damage resistance AND add half modified AV regardless of whether or not DV exceeds AV?
This isn't the first time I've seen this misconception. Most recently, I saw it in someone's comprehensive set of house rules for drones.
Hehe, guilty as charged! I've happily houseruled the ignore DV less than AV away for my games, as we've been playing it like that since SR5 came out. Ignoring DV less than AV just makes spirits far too damage resistant as far as I'm concerned.
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If modified DV does not exceed modified AV roll damage resistance AND add half modified AV auto hits, and if modified DV does exceed modified AV just roll damage resistance as normal?
Or roll damage resistance AND add half modified AV regardless of whether or not DV exceeds AV?
Just to clarify the difference between these is:
Option 1:
10 DV vs 12 Armor = 10 - 6 - (12 + Body dice)
15 DV vs 12 Armor = 15 - (12 + Body dice)
Option 2:
10 DV vs 12 Armor = 10 - 6 - (12 + Body dice)
15 DV vs 12 Armor = 15 - 6 - (12 + Body dice)
It's kind of moot since it didn't make it into the game, but it's an interesting thing to have around as a house rule.
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Option 2 should be:
10 DV vs 12 Armor = 10 - 6 - (12 + Body dice)
15 DV vs 12 Armor = 15 - 6 - (12 + Body dice)
;)
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What I thought was that you didn't have the 'ping', but half-hits were in the mix.
Thus, a Body 12, Hardened Armor 12 type could take damage from anything (in theory), but would roll 24 dice (-AP) to resist, and have 6 (modified by AP) auto-reductions in there.
It isn't *quite* "Half vehicular armor" but close-ish.
Light pistols would be useless (that 6 auto-hits wipes the core damage out entirely), while heavy pistols would need some good luck to do more than cause a bruise. Rifles and the like would start being a real threat, but you'd still have to wear it down.
I know Patrick had a big issue with the old 'ping' and how critters tended to be immune or splat, and came up with the new Hardened Armor to deal with it, but... huh.
Man.
Gotta adjust my brain now!
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So here's the interesting thing; the rule about ignoring modified DV less than modified AV is almost entirely useless when the rule regarding half AV counting as success is in play. This is because mathematically, using half AV as automatic success will almost always result in less than 0 DV remaining when averaging results. Obviously, there is going to be variance when using actual dice, but you are statistically likely to just get a DV ignored result regardless of whether or not you ignore the DV because it's less than AV in the first place.
A couple of examples where modified DV is less than modified AV, but we don't ignore DV and soak it using automatic success instead:
Force 4 Spirit of Man vs Holdout pistol (7DV + 1 net hit, 0 AP); 8DV would normally not exceed AV, and would be ignored.
Resistance roll: Round Up Half AV 8 + ((Body 5 + (AV8))/3) = 4 + (13/3) = 4 + 4.33=8.33 DV resisted
Force 5 Spirit of Man vs Heavy Pistol (8DV + 1 net hit, -1 AP); 9DV would normally not exceed AV(10-1) and would be ignored.
Resistance roll: Round Up Half AV9 + ((Body 6 + (AV9))/3) = 5 + (15/3) = 5 + 5 = 10 DV resisted
Force 6 Spirit of Man vs Heavy Pistol w/Explosive Rounds (9DV + 1 hit, -2 AP); 10DV would normally not exceed AV(12-2) and would be ignored.
Resistance roll: Round Up Half AV10 + ((Body 7 + (AV10))/3) = 5 + (17/3) = 5 + 5.67 = 10.67 DV resisted
Force 9 Spirit of Man vs Assault Rifle w/APDS (11DV + 1 net hit, -6 AP); 12DV would normally not exceed AV(18-6) and would be ignored.
Resistance roll: Round Up Half AV 12 + ((Body 10 + (AV12))/3) = 6 + (22/3) = 6 + 7.33 = 13.33 DV resisted
So really, the only difference between ignoring DV less than AV would be when a critter with Hardened Armor rolled less than average, which becomes more likely the higher the dice pool through sheer probability at an actual table. Statistically it's the same, but we all know that dice rolls do not exactly follow statistics.
I stand by my house rule to give hardened armor to vehicles and simply removing the auto-ignore DV less than AV. Statistically this change makes no difference, but realistically a poor damage resistance roll can now mean that a vehicle, critter with Hardened Armor, or person in Mil-Spec armor might actually take at least some damage from low-DV weapons instead of being completely immune at all times.
Simultaneously, this change gives a boost to the durability of drones specifically given their low armor values in general without making them death machines capable of out-tanking a street samurai.
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One should note, however, that the standard metahuman in the heavy Milspec armor is practically the same size as a troll. Also note that we haven't seen actual milspec vehicles come out yet. You're comparing elite military gear to upgraded civilian/corpsec gear. Wait until we see main battle tanks and the like before crying foul.
Ok, let's see them then! :)
All in good time...
Is that a promise?
...I know it isn't, but I can dream, can't I?
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It's funny but our team ran up against a force 9 shadow spirit last weekend and their dude with a weapon focus happened to be awol so they had to try and take it down with Assault rifles firing APDS.
After a few rounds of bouncing bursts off it's hardened armor they switched to attempting Bulls-Eye double-tap APDS shots which worked out a bit better (care to expound on the math Herr?)
But in the end they had to get the fark out because the nasty git kept Fearing the shooters then attacking the supporting team members before the feared folks could get back into the fight.
So TL:DR yes hardened armor is a bitch but that's cool, sometimes you gotta find other ways around a problem besides just shooting it in the face.
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It's funny but our team ran up against a force 9 shadow spirit last weekend and their dude with a weapon focus happened to be awol so they had to try and take it down with Assault rifles firing APDS.
After a few rounds of bouncing bursts off it's hardened armor they switched to attempting Bulls-Eye double-tap APDS shots which worked out a bit better (care to expound on the math Herr?)
But in the end they had to get the fark out because the nasty git kept Fearing the shooters then attacking the supporting team members before the feared folks could get back into the fight.
So TL:DR yes hardened armor is a bitch but that's cool, sometimes you gotta find other ways around a problem besides just shooting it in the face.
It's their fault for bringing assault rifles to a shotgun fight. Yup. 8)
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After a few rounds of bouncing bursts off it's hardened armor they switched to attempting Bulls-Eye double-tap APDS shots which worked out a bit better (care to expound on the math Herr?)
Sure. I'm assuming average resistance rolls of Body 9 + AV/3 to cut down on the variables. Obviously, better or worse rolls means more or less hits are needed to damage the spirit.
Force 9 Spirit (Body 9, modified AV16) vs Assault Rifle with regular rounds (DV11, AP-2); needs 6 net hits to both exceed AV and deal any damage at all (0.33 unresisted DV on average)
Force 9 Spirit (Body 9, modified AV12) vs Assault Rifle with APDS rounds (DV11, AP-6); needs 2 net hits to exceed AV and 3 net hits to reliably deal any damage (0.67 unresisted DV on average)
Force 9 Spirit (Body 9, modified AV8) vs Assault Rifle with APDS rounds and Bulls-Eye Burst (DV11, AP-10); only needs 1 net hit to both exceed AV and deal damage (2 unresisted DV on average)
And just for kicks...
Force 9 Spirit (Body 9, modified AV11) vs EBR with APDS rounds (DV12, AP-7); only needs 1 net hits to both AV and 2 net hits to reliably deal damage (1 unresisted DV on average)
Force 9 Spirit (Body 9, modified AV5) vs EBR with APDS rounds and Bulls-Eye Burst (DV12, AP-13); only needs 1 net hit to both exceed AV and reliably deal damage (5 unresisted DV on average)
As you can tell, using APDS rounds with the Bulls-Eye Burst called shot you only need a single net hit to start damaging the spirit if he rolls completely average. Compare this to the 5 net hits you'd need using just APDS to do similar damage.
Statistically, it's worth pointing out that the -4 dice will on average only result in 1.33 net hits, so you're by far better off taking the lower dice pool over hoping to score significantly more hits without the called shot. Granted, this is all in a math-hammer exercise in a vacuum where the damage resistance roll is constant, but at least it gives you a rough guideline of what to expect based on probabilities.
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So the math would look like:
Force 9 Spirit (Body 9, modified AV8) vs Assault Rifle with APDS rounds and Bulls-Eye Burst (DV11, AP-10) = 17 dice soak pool >average 17/3=6 net hits> + 4 auto hits (50% of remaining AV of 8 ) = 10 hits on average soak roll.
The team's problem was that the spirits dodge pool was 18 dice (reaction 9 + intuition 9) so taking 4 dice off their attack pool meant it was pretty farking hard to get a hit in.
Ah spirits.
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Yeah, that 18 dice dodge pool is nasty. But a bevy of small drones can help out with that. They'll die ... probably.
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Yeah, that's where volume of fire and/or Noizequitos come in. Get a bunch of Fly-Spy drones with taser mounts and harrass the spirit with -1 cumulative modifiers until it caves.
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Or Dragonflies, if you want something off the rack that can attack.
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Dragonflies have a melee attack, though. A Force 9 spirit could Engulf them all and obliterate them in a single use of it's power, or they would be destroyed when trying to attack if the spirit had an Energy Aura (Force x 2 DV, -Force AP, ouch!).
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Yup, Herr math is correct. As is adzling's. And as he and others have said. The whole defense pool (dodge is something else) is 18 dice, so multiple attacks (via runners and multiple) a pass and long full auto bursts.
The thing is, while SWAT/CRB full body armors are restricted (therefore usable under the right setting/fack license. Mil-Spec harden armor should always be F rating. So while it might be easy to come by, it means the Corp/Cops/opposition pulls out EBRs or Barretts with adps, high force spirits, heavy mil/corp spec vehicles (with multiple heavy weapons), and blows the runners to shreds!
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But with Heavy Mil-Spec locking in at merely 35,000 ¥ it suggests to be quite inexpensive, considering the fact that each armor has to be custom fit for ist wearer and can't be mass produced.
So with that price tag it's hard to explain that such tech isn't already in use for security vehicles.
There's a few reasons.
1) Size/Mass. Armoring a person takes a lot less material than armoring a vehicle, and the weapons that are used against people are generally smaller than those used against vehicles, anyways. So armor for vehicles will cost more.
2) Numbers. There are FAR more military soldiers than there are military vehicles. Even so, the availability on milspec armor is very high.
3) Security. Simply put, while one person, or even a unit, in milspec armor is a definite problem, that unit supported by a milspec APC is deadly dangerous.
4) Restrictions. No one wants milspec armored vehicles to be out in the shadows. Absolutely nothing good comes from this equation for any of the people who have said vehicles.
5) Purpose. Milspec vehicles are purpose built machines. A milspec APC is not going to have an upgrade to make its armor hardened, it will have the hardened armor to begin with, if it can. This is the difference between a main battle tank and a Bulldog that someone slapped a crap-ton of armor plates on. They simply don't make hardened armor upgrades. You want that, you need a full build in a factory where you can bet there are at least twenty spies and informants from at least ten different organizations, making sure they know damn well who is getting ready for war.
Of course, the biggest reason we haven't seen anything like that so far is because of the type of game Shadowrun is. While there will eventually be a military/mercenary book, continuing the tradition from War! all the way back to Fields of Fire, the focus of Shadowrun is not full scale military engagements. In fact, if runners are ever going head to head against the full weight of a national military, they should have run a LONG time ago.
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Aircraft are ALWAYS going to be more vulnerable than other vehicles, RiggerBob. Armor increases mass, and increased mass means it takes more energy to move. That doesn't mean much on the ground or at sea, since big, heavy engines are fine there, but in the air, where you have to keep going a certain speed or you (literally) fall out of the sky, mass is very much an issue. So combat aircraft are never going to match a main battle tank for shrugging off hits. Their primary defense isn't armor, but the fact that a target moving at Mach speeds is damn near impossible to hit without expensive guidance systems on your missiles or going that fast yourself.
That's perfectly true in real-life of course.
And is quiet irrelevant in shadowrun (being part of the cyberpunk genre after all^^) were t-birds (vector-thrust LAVs) never were conventional aircrafts but "Hardwired"-inspired futuristic hover tanks with the heaviest armor (see "CAS/GD Stonewall Main Battle Tank" in 4th edition's Mil-Spec Tech for example). 8)
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You do know there's a difference between a t-bird and a main battle tank, right? The Stonewall is more accurately a hovercraft rather than an aircraft. It doesn't get more than a few feet off the ground. T-birds, on the other hand, are aircraft. They may be able to take a hit better than a Cessna, but they are blockade running smuggler aircraft, not military tanks that barely get off the ground. You can also see that, compared to the Banshee (an actual T-bird), the Stonewall has less than half the acceleration and speed than the Banshee, and handles worse, while the Banshee has Body 20 and Armor 18, compared to the Stonewall's Body 36 and Armor 28. Comparing them is like comparing the New York Yankees to the New York Jets. Sure, they're both sports teams in New York, but past that...
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No, i don't.
I know the difference between fast light-armored designated scouts (GMC Banshee, GMC Harpy, Saeder-Krupp Sleipnir, Aztech Lobo etc.) and slower heavy-armored tanks (CAS/GD Stonewall, Ruhrmetall Behemoth etc.).
Though all the years of shadowrun (if i remember correctly the Behemoth was last seen in 2nd for example) all these were commonly labeled thunderbirds (at least "fast armored vector-thrust LAV" is what i've always known as the definition of a thunderbird. 5th edition only mentions t-birds by name and rarely describes any terminology we already know from previous editions). And they are all flying bricks powered more by vector-thrust rule-of-cool than actual aerodynamics :D
They all were mil-spec tech too, with some of the lighter ones sometimes used for heavy (mega-)corp security too...
If you want to believe the GMC Gryphon is just "upgraded civilian/corpsec gear" (as you put it) with real mil-spec vehicles yet to come, that's ok. I don't (especially when the text mentions it's developmental relation to the GMC Harpy, a vehicle designated as mil-spec in 2nd/3rd and covered in "Mil-Spec Tech" in 4th).
So let's just agree to disagree here...
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Just because something is military does not make it a battle tank, RiggerBob. A humvee is a military vehicle, after all. A PT boat and a destroyer are both military naval vessels, but if you try to compare the two in front of a Navy man, you're likely going to be kissing the deck. The Harpy Scout is a LAV (an actual air vehicle), with similar stats to the Banshee. It is a little slower on the top end, but chalk that up to the added mass of sensor arrays and signature masking. NOW you're making valid comparisons. The Harpy Scout is a stealth-focused scout vehicle, while the Banshee is a speed-focused blockade runner. Neither one is a main battle tank. Even in the 5E book, it says that the Banshee is a recon/courier craft when it sees military action. The Gryphon is a V/STOL equivalent of an Apache attack helicopter. Full of things that will make your enemy's life miserable, but someone hits you with a missile, and you're in trouble. The Gryphon is a military vehicle, yes. But you haven't seen any of the heavy armor yet, because they haven't published them yet.
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See, that's exactly what i've been talking about...
Sure, we haven't seen the real heavy armor yet, but we have mil-spec tech thunderbirds. Some of them we know from (multiple) earlier editions already. And we can extrapolate from there...
So let's take a look:
The GMC Banshee had an armor rating of 18 in 2nd edition, the heaviest armor tank had 24... that's a 33% increase.
Same Banshee had an armor rating of 18 in 4th edition, the CAS/GD Stonewall Main Battle Tank ("primary armored vehicle of the CAS's tank devisions") had 28... 55% increase here.
So, what should i expect from heavy tanks yet to come?
Even if i calculate with a generous 100% increase in armor based on 5th edition's Banshee (again 18 armor), that 36 armor still soak less boxes of damage than a suit of personal armor.
And no matter how legally forbidden, military spec state of the art that suit is, that's completely ridiculous and over the the top.
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You seem to be forgetting the fact that vehicle Body ties into damage soak. A Troll with maxed Body (10) and heavy milspec armor is going to soak on average 23 points of damage (10 Body + 23 armor = 33 dice, so 11 hits, +12 autohits). Even if the Stonewall's Body (36) and Armor (28) are unchanged from 4th, that would come out to about 21 points of soak. As we both agree that the Stonewall will likely have more armor this edition, let's say it goes up by 10, as a low end estimate. At this point, we're already over the soak a Troll with maxed Body can manage with hardened milspec armor.
And all of this assumes that hardened armor won't be a vehicle upgrade option that appears in whatever the 5e version of milspec tech is.
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I sincerely doubt, and hope, that milspec armor (read: tanks) don't go too overboard with AV increases. AV rockets already have issues dealing with the very objects they are designed for use against. Further power creep just means tanks are going to be nigh invulnerable to anything but dedicated anti-tank vehicle weaponry.
At least in previous editions, you still had a chance against armor with hand held weaponry. If they make hardned armor an option for already high body and AV vehicles I have trouble seeing what kind of weapons short of Thor shots and dragons stand a chance damaging them.
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Herr, the only real option for anti-tanks are either tanks or anti-tank weapons. The an it vehicle missiles in the CRB I will agree are not very impressive, but (hopefully) are not actual Mil-Spec anti-armored vehicle rockets/missiles.
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Rift_0f_Bladz
I have a hard time seeing how an anti-vehicle missile is anything but milspec tech, personally. Most civilians don't exactly go deer hunting with a rocket launcher...
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I sincerely doubt, and hope, that milspec armor (read: tanks) don't go too overboard with AV increases. AV rockets already have issues dealing with the very objects they are designed for use against. Further power creep just means tanks are going to be nigh invulnerable to anything but dedicated anti-tank vehicle weaponry.
Well... I mean, that is probably appropriate. Modern tanks are designed to be difficult-as-hell to destroy with man-portable AV weaponry. Typically it takes a hit to a known weakspot on an older model tank, or several repeated shots on newer tanks (with no guarantee of success). There aren't very many man-portable AV weapons that are effective against a third-generation tank.
AV rockets are most effective against more typical Shadowrunner targets -- civilian, police, and transport vehicles -- and less effective against armored military vehicles. This means that tanks are still a threat that your Shadowrunners (or insurgents, or mercs, depending on what the campaign is focused on) will have to either evade or gain special equipment in order to defeat ("jury-rigged anti-tank mine" or "collapsing building" both count as special equipment in this case).
Now, if you want a T-Bird designed to take out tanks, you'll probably need a little more firepower than what mounting a few man-portable RPGs in turrets will give you. And that's really where Mil-spec tech will have to come in.
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Well... I mean, that is probably appropriate. Modern tanks are designed to be difficult-as-hell to destroy with man-portable AV weaponry. Typically it takes a hit to a known weakspot on an older model tank, or several repeated shots on newer tanks (with no guarantee of success). There aren't very many man-portable AV weapons that are effective against a third-generation tank.
One word: Javelin.
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Yeah but doesn't the Javelin hit the weaker top armor?
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That is a good point - all of the weapons we've seen thus far are man portable weapons jury-rigged onto more or less standard vehicles/drones. Some may come from the factory with the weapons pre-attached, but they are still equivalent to man portable weapons. The main gun on a tank, or the guns on a battleship will be significantly more powerful. And there will likely be things that are more akin to Vulcan guns and more destructive AV rockets (like the Javelin already mentioned) that are more appropriate to taking out mil-tech vehicles.
So, armor creep for military vehicles is not likely to be a huge problem. And really, other than tanks and specific heavy armor vehicles, most military vehicles will probably be susceptible to the weapons we currently have available. Like was mentioned earlier, Humvees and aircraft are not anywhere as heavily armored as a tank - tanks are almost a special case when it comes to sheer indestructibility. If it weren't for the fact that a navy vessel has boat-loads (literally) of anti-missile defenses and can see you coming a mile away (again, literally), they'd probably be perfectly susceptible to the explosives and weaponry currently available as well. I expect a lot of military grade vehicles/drones to be the same - not significantly less destructable than civilian equivalents, but backed up with EW and sensors and other battlefield dominance technologies that make them significantly more of a threat.
Point being, mil-spec is a whole different ball of wax. We've seen the infantry armor (though, granted, the rank and file don't wear anything quite that good), and it puts every other armor to shame. I expect the other toys to do the same - if it isn't amazing armor, it is fantastically destructive weaponry or sensors and EW capabilities that would make your sneaksuit and Fairlight Caliban look like Fischer-Price preschool toys. And, I wouldn't be surprised if the armor we have seen is actually last year's top-of-the-line - there are probably actual powered armor suits that will be even more drool-worthy.
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I'll retract my previous statement; tanks and other mil-spec gear is not the kind of thing your average shadowrunner is going to go up against, so it doesn't quite make sense to compare civilian equipment with military gear.
And you don't bring civilian gear to a war zone, so if you're going up against tanks chances are you're prepared for it.
The power creep is only problematic if you pit civilians against military operatives, and at that point it should be unbalanced. An M72 is not an FGM-148, and I'd liken the Aztechnology Striker more to the former than the latter.
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Well said, Herr B. This is why all the real heavy military stuff usually is grouped in books just for milspec stuff. Because while it would be awesome to have the stats for a nuclear carrier, we all know that no runner (except maybe Kane) is ever going to have one.
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Because while it would be awesome to have the stats for a nuclear carrier, we all know that no runner (except maybe Kane) is ever going to have one.
Kane should never be allowed in the same sentence as the word nuclear! NEVER! >:(
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That's just because he'd nuke aztlan if he had the chance
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That's just because he'd nuke aztlan if he had the chance
You say that like it might be a bad thing. ;)
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That's just because he'd nuke aztlan if he had the chance
You say that like it might be a bad thing. ;)
Nukes tend to kill thinsg dead.
In teh 6th world tho, sometimes they wake things up...
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That's just because he'd nuke aztlan if he had the chance
You say that like it might be a bad thing. ;)
Nukes tend to kill thinsg dead.
In teh 6th world tho, sometimes they wake things up...
And given what little we know (and what more we suspect) about Aztlan, we probably don't want to wake those things up.
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Rift_0f_Bladz
I have a hard time seeing how an anti-vehicle missile is anything but milspec tech, personally. Most civilians don't exactly go deer hunting with a rocket launcher...
And most people don't deal with an awakened world where carrying an equivalent to a Ruger .500 is just the cost of walking to the grocery store. The Javalin was designed to counter modern tank armor by targeting the weak armor on top since the front, side, and rear armor is now so heavy (plus all the new countermeasures to antitank weapons and explosives). So yeah, the antivehicle missile is (to me) more like a RPG-7 or other light man powered antivehicle weapons used in modern warfare. The Javalin is specifically designed for antitank or other hardened vehicles but usually the soldiers call in close air support to remove tanks because most man powered weapons don't even hurt it.
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You must have missed my follow-up post (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22482.msg432728#msg432728), Rift ;)
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No, I saw it, just was replying to your comment, along with everyone else's and got slightly confused, I blam the lack of alcohol or maybe to much, not sure been a while since I posted that.
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A quick search did nit turn this up, so I'll ask here.
The description for Gecko Grips for drones says
This allows it to climb vertical, or even hang upside
down, as long as the surface has a Barrier Rating at
least equal to the drone’s Body x 3.
But Barriers have 2 ratings, Structure and Armor, which do we use? Or do we add both together?
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Structure, would be my guess.
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Both added together is the barrier rating/the pool you roll to resist damage.
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Structure's the right number, by the by.
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Nice coverage for this title at ICv2.com (http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/33768/new-vehicle-handbook-shadowrun) today. Good to see CGL making sure that the industry knows these books are coming.
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There is also an interview and small preview of it in GTM for March it is pretty good description of what they were doing. The interviewee? Jason Hardy!
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There is also an interview and small preview of it in GTM for March it is pretty good description of what they were doing. The interviewee? Jason Hardy!
Nice find! Link here (http://www.gametrademagazine.com/Home/1/1/58/581); article below:
GTM #193 - Shadowrun, Fifth Edition: Rigger 5.0
by Jason M. Hardy
(http://www.gametrademagazine.com/news_images/174985_850062_1.jpg)
When the Shadowrun development team first started designing Shadowrun, Fifth Edition, we talked about some of the things we definitely wanted the game to contain. Several ideas came up, including this one: We wanted riggers back. The previous edition had made tremendous strides in terms of simplifying and streamlining game play — one of our tasks would be to retain (and improve) simplicity while also making sure distinctive elements that make Shadowrun such a compelling setting are in place.
Riggers are just such an element. Ace drivers and pilots who are capable of not just steering a vehicle but being the vehicle, riggers are a prime embodiment of the combination of man and machine that is part of the core of the Sixth World. And fans, we found, are eager to play them. In the big summer conventions of 2015, I talked to several people who asked the same question: “When do we get a rigger book?” For many players, the ability to customize and modify a vehicle to make it exactly what they want it to be is as important as designing the perfect weapons loadout or learning the right combination of spells. Shadowrunners love to tell their stories of their heavily armored RV with hidden gun turrets, or their fleet of camouflaged ground and air drones that can see everything without being noticed. They wanted a resource that could detail all the vehicles their characters might be able to use — or steal. We, of course, were eager to give it to them.
(http://www.gametrademagazine.com/news_images/174985_850068_7.jpg)
The core of any rigger book is the new cars, trucks, boats, planes, drones, and more that it contains, but that’s not the only thing a book needs to really communicate the whole rigger experience. Since we cannot, unfortunately, give people the real experience of inserting their consciousness into a vehicle and fully becoming the machine, we are left to do the next best thing: Help them imagine it. Some of the art and writing of a rigger book needs to convey the exhilaration of melding your consciousness with a fast, powerful machine, describing the odd peace that comes from deftly maneuvering through chaos. One of the illustrations from the book captures this perfectly. The left side of the image shows a city intersection in chaos, explosions and smoke clogging the street, drones and vehicles adding bullets to the fray. On the right side of the image, an orange-striped sports car with glowing blue rims speeds away. Its tires are slightly above the ground in the moment captured in the illustration, so it looks like it is taking flight. It is driving smooth and clean away from the chaos behind it. It’s a great depiction of the rigger’s peace in speeding through chaos.
Once the mood is set and people are aching to get behind the wheel/helm/control stick/whatever, we need an alluring fleet of vehicles and drones to keep them involved. “Alluring” can mean many things in a rigger book. Most obviously, it describes the vehicles that players will read about and want to take out for a spin. But it can also mean vehicles whose price range takes it outside of what most runners can ever spend, those luxury vehicles that they might see as signifiers as wealth, or that they might try to steal to send a message to a particular target (while also giving them the chance for some high-price fun). Finally, a vehicle might be alluring because it suggests a story; simply reading about it offers plotlines and opens up stories that can become exciting parts of a role-playing campaign.
(http://www.gametrademagazine.com/news_images/174985_850067_6.jpg)
Here are some of my favorite examples of each type. First, there’s the Mack Hellhound. A burly truck bristling with muscle and guns, one look at the illustration would be enough to make plenty of players want to add it to their fleet. The facts that it is loaded with drone racks and has a standard rigger-friendly features only serve to make it more of a rigger’s dream, and while it’s not cheap, riggers will do the scrimping and saving they need to be able to drive this truck into heat and show everyone around just who is in charge.
(http://www.gametrademagazine.com/news_images/174985_850066_5.jpg)
While the Hellhound may not be cheap, it’s an absolute bargain compared to the Lurssen Mobius. This yacht’s price tag is so high, a whole team of runners could likely retire with the amount of money it would take to buy one. This is not something runners will buy — not only is it heinously expensive, but runners do not often have the need for what is described as a “140-meter mansion on water.” It’s a little ostentatious and attention-grabbing for people who usually like to stay out of sight. The people who will use this boat, though, are the ones runners often target, the rich and powerful of the Sixth World. The description of the watercraft gives gamemasters the information they need to give players the chance to encounter one of these behemoths and, if they play their cards right, maybe slip behind the helm for a few minutes piloting a ship that represents the pinnacle of Sixth World luxury.
(http://www.gametrademagazine.com/news_images/174985_850065_4.jpg)
To explore the allure of plot hooks tied to a vehicle, let’s look at the Dassault Sea Sprite. A tilt-rotor search-and-rescue craft, the plane is also described as occasionally being equipped with guns, which might be used to take out an engine so that the plane can drop toward water level, deploy some rafts, and engage suspicious watercraft. On top of that, the book reports that some smugglers are buying Sea Sprites through the black market, since their distinctive profile and use in search-and-rescue operations tend to keep them from appearing suspicious. This means, then, that gamemasters can generate plot twists simply by flying a Sea Sprite overhead if the runners are making a trip over water. Once they notice it, runners will have to decide if it’s actually on a search-and-rescue mission, if it’s intending to intercept them and make their day worse, or if it’s a fellow shadowrunner — and possible competitor — bringing complications with them. The appearance of a Sea Sprite gives a gamemaster options, while heightening the paranoia of the runners. Which is always good in a Shadowrun game.
(http://www.gametrademagazine.com/news_images/174985_850064_3.jpg)
The whole point of a core rulebook is to give players and gamemasters more options and make them excited to use them. With Rigger 5.0, we’re glad riggers have their time in the spotlight!
(http://www.gametrademagazine.com/news_images/174985_851350_8.jpg)
Click Here (http://www.gametrademagazine.com/downloads/ShadowrunRiggerSamplePages.pdf) to view interior pages in PDF format.
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This would have all been much more interesting if they had'n't totally screwed the pooch on editing the thing.
Considering the poor quality this interview just seems sad.
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The sad and scary thing is, the editing is still better than what was in Street Grimiore or from what I heard about with Data Trails.
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It's getting better! And we keep hammering away at it to try and get better each time.
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This would have all been much more interesting if they had'n't totally screwed the pooch on editing the thing.
Considering the poor quality this interview just seems sad.
Perhaps you should take another step back adzling. Understand your frustration, but these kinds of comments don't do anything to help the situation. This post has been flagged and will be reviewed shortly.
SR Mod
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There was nothing inflammatory, just stating facts without any personal attacks.
If you now consider that off limits then we have now turned the corner on what the mods on this forum see as acceptable.
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There was nothing inflammatory, just stating facts without any personal attacks.
If you now consider that off limits then we have now turned the corner on what the mods on this forum see as acceptable.
Your post was reported by other members of the forum; that is what is prompting the review.
Comments like "screwed the pooch" and "poor quality" are opinions, not facts, from my perspective. We may need to agree that we disagree on that.
If you'd like to discuss this further, let's take it to PM. Fell free to copy in FastJack if you would like another perspective.
SR Mod
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I thjnk the poor quality of catalysts srun 5e editing and rules is pretty clearly established and accepted by the community.
Perhaps I should have just omitted the colorful phraseology and just left it at that.
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Adzling, you have been warned. Keep it up and another banning will be forthcoming.
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I'd like to ask: do I now have to accept the fact that Catalyst has apparently given up on publishing errata and instead simulate excitement for very poorly edited rules that force me to spend countless hours on these forums trying to figure out how to use the rules that I spent hundreds of dollars on?
I really want to know.
thanks
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I'd like to ask: do I now have to accept the fact that Catalyst has apparently given up on publishing errata and instead simulate excitement for very poorly edited rules that force me to spend countless hours on these forums trying to figure out how to use the rules that I spent hundreds of dollars on?
I really want to know.
thanks
That's par for the course for anything in this hobby. Ever play Netrunner?
Anyway, rules in RPGs are a bit more like guidelines.
I personally feel Rigger 5 is actually one of their better books. It gives me the content I actually want, and a rule framework to do it. Its way more clear then say, the weapon modding rules in Run & Gun or the overall lack of rules found in Data Trails. The only thing that I'd have really loved to see in Rigger 5 would be rules to rig a building, but it's not insanely difficult to house rule rules for that while staying consistent with the current game systems.
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Yeah, I hope that we get to do a follow-up with more stuff on RCCs and security spiders, at the very least.
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I'd like to ask: do I now have to accept the fact that Catalyst has apparently given up on publishing errata and instead simulate excitement for very poorly edited rules that force me to spend countless hours on these forums trying to figure out how to use the rules that I spent hundreds of dollars on?
I really want to know.
thanks
ImO....
Yes
Life Sucks
get used to it
with a depressive Dance
Medicineman
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Got used to it but the kicks still hurt
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Yes, Rigger 5 is one of the better (if not the best) books so far. And thank you Wakshaani for all the work and devotion you show us...
But:
I start reading the book and can find the first glaring error after two sentences (but hey, we all had fun with Fancy Derek, didn't we?^^).
There are missing rules.
There are rules contradicting each other.
There are missing stats.
There are wrong stats.
There are (again) wrongly aligned tables (something you can find by just flipping through the book without knowing anything about the system btw...)
There are inconsistencies between rules and fluff text, inconsistancies between rule texts and rule charts, inconsistencies between different chapters etc.
There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...
There's a single freelancer who works hard to explain reasoning and thoughts behind some things in the book (as far as he's allowed to), confirming errors and collecting more errors for future corrections etc...
And (based on this thread and the rigger 5 errata thread) that same person has on occasion:
- commented on errors he already corrected in his submissions before
- talked about rules that should be there but were miraculous cut from the book (how many autosofts can a drone run again?^^)
- refered to core rules that are not in the core book (program ratings are generally limited by device rating? Is there a document including this rule, because it's not in my core book? Is such a document with the complete/corrected rules available for persons working at new books only or could this possibly be worth printing an errata, so people who paid for books could get working rules?)
Again... Rigger 5 is still a far better book than... well... most other sourcebook printed in the last years. (Some of them are waiting for errata for how long again?^^)
There are dozens over dozens of rules and fluff questions in this forum and nearly all of them have one thing in common: Players, who already spend their money on books, spend time to explain rules based on previous editions and consensus reached through forum discussions. Because there's nearly never an official answer. And in the rare cases there is one, it either contradicts itself, the setting, other rules or brings a couple of new questions/inconsistencies.
And now officials here tell us, speaking about "poor quality" is a matter of "personal opinion"?
I don't even know what would make me more sad. You really believing that or being forced to say it because this is an official forum...
Either way, it's insulting.
Insulting to every single person (freelancers included of course) here on the forums, spending days, weeks or even months of their lifetime trying to make a working system out of the mess that gets printed for 5th edition. Just because they love this game...
TL;DR:
Yes, 5th edition is a mess (some books more than others) and unplayable without extensive corrections.
@Players: Get over it... Make your own changes and enjoy your game. There a tons of people here eager to share their insight regarding rules and background. Just don't wait for something official.
@"Officials": Get over it... I really stopped caring if you give us errata'd rules, try to improve future work or just tell us you don't care... But - please, please, pretty please - don't lie to us. After years of 5th ed. we're used to it. But nobody's stupid enough to believe everything's fine and works as intended anymore...
-
Yes, Rigger 5 is one of the better (if not the best) books so far. And thank you Wakshaani for all the work and devotion you show us...
But:
I start reading the book and can find the first glaring error after two sentences (but hey, we all had fun with Fancy Derek, didn't we?^^).
There are missing rules.
There are rules contradicting each other.
There are missing stats.
There are wrong stats.
There are (again) wrongly aligned tables (something you can find by just flipping through the book without knowing anything about the system btw...)
There are inconsistencies between rules and fluff text, inconsistancies between rule texts and rule charts, inconsistencies between different chapters etc.
There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...
There's a single freelancer who works hard to explain reasoning and thoughts behind some things in the book (as far as he's allowed to), confirming errors and collecting more errors for future corrections etc...
And (based on this thread and the rigger 5 errata thread) that same person has on occasion:
- commented on errors he already corrected in his submissions before
- talked about rules that should be there but were miraculous cut from the book (how many autosofts can a drone run again?^^)
- refered to core rules that are not in the core book (program ratings are generally limited by device rating? Is there a document including this rule, because it's not in my core book? Is such a document with the complete/corrected rules available for persons working at new books only or could this possibly be worth printing an errata, so people who paid for books could get working rules?)
Again... Rigger 5 is still a far better book than... well... most other sourcebook printed in the last years. (Some of them are waiting for errata for how long again?^^)
There are dozens over dozens of rules and fluff questions in this forum and nearly all of them have one thing in common: Players, who already spend their money on books, spend time to explain rules based on previous editions and consensus reached through forum discussions. Because there's nearly never an official answer. And in the rare cases there is one, it either contradicts itself, the setting, other rules or brings a couple of new questions/inconsistencies.
And now officials here tell us, speaking about "poor quality" is a matter of "personal opinion"?
I don't even know what would make me more sad. You really believing that or being forced to say it because this is an official forum...
Either way, it's insulting.
Insulting to every single person (freelancers included of course) here on the forums, spending days, weeks or even months of their lifetime trying to make a working system out of the mess that gets printed for 5th edition. Just because they love this game...
TL;DR:
Yes, 5th edition is a mess (some books more than others) and unplayable without extensive corrections.
@Players: Get over it... Make your own changes and enjoy your game. There a tons of people here eager to share their insight regarding rules and background. Just don't wait for something official.
@"Officials": Get over it... I really stopped caring if you give us errata'd rules, try to improve future work or just tell us you don't care... But - please, please, pretty please - don't lie to us. After years of 5th ed. we're used to it. But nobody's stupid enough to believe everything's fine and works as intended anymore...
If you have questions or issues with the moderation, please feel free to contact myself or FastJack.
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You said it very eloquently, thank you for this.
Yes, Rigger 5 is one of the better (if not the best) books so far. And thank you Wakshaani for all the work and devotion you show us...
But:
I start reading the book and can find the first glaring error after two sentences (but hey, we all had fun with Fancy Derek, didn't we?^^).
There are missing rules.
There are rules contradicting each other.
There are missing stats.
There are wrong stats.
There are (again) wrongly aligned tables (something you can find by just flipping through the book without knowing anything about the system btw...)
There are inconsistencies between rules and fluff text, inconsistancies between rule texts and rule charts, inconsistencies between different chapters etc.
There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...
There's a single freelancer who works hard to explain reasoning and thoughts behind some things in the book (as far as he's allowed to), confirming errors and collecting more errors for future corrections etc...
And (based on this thread and the rigger 5 errata thread) that same person has on occasion:
- commented on errors he already corrected in his submissions before
- talked about rules that should be there but were miraculous cut from the book (how many autosofts can a drone run again?^^)
- refered to core rules that are not in the core book (program ratings are generally limited by device rating? Is there a document including this rule, because it's not in my core book? Is such a document with the complete/corrected rules available for persons working at new books only or could this possibly be worth printing an errata, so people who paid for books could get working rules?)
Again... Rigger 5 is still a far better book than... well... most other sourcebook printed in the last years. (Some of them are waiting for errata for how long again?^^)
There are dozens over dozens of rules and fluff questions in this forum and nearly all of them have one thing in common: Players, who already spend their money on books, spend time to explain rules based on previous editions and consensus reached through forum discussions. Because there's nearly never an official answer. And in the rare cases there is one, it either contradicts itself, the setting, other rules or brings a couple of new questions/inconsistencies.
And now officials here tell us, speaking about "poor quality" is a matter of "personal opinion"?
I don't even know what would make me more sad. You really believing that or being forced to say it because this is an official forum...
Either way, it's insulting.
Insulting to every single person (freelancers included of course) here on the forums, spending days, weeks or even months of their lifetime trying to make a working system out of the mess that gets printed for 5th edition. Just because they love this game...
TL;DR:
Yes, 5th edition is a mess (some books more than others) and unplayable without extensive corrections.
@Players: Get over it... Make your own changes and enjoy your game. There a tons of people here eager to share their insight regarding rules and background. Just don't wait for something official.
@"Officials": Get over it... I really stopped caring if you give us errata'd rules, try to improve future work or just tell us you don't care... But - please, please, pretty please - don't lie to us. After years of 5th ed. we're used to it. But nobody's stupid enough to believe everything's fine and works as intended anymore...
-
There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...
Try since Street Grimorie was erratad.
-
Yes, Rigger 5 is one of the better (if not the best) books so far. And thank you Wakshaani for all the work and devotion you show us...
But:
I start reading the book and can find the first glaring error after two sentences (but hey, we all had fun with Fancy Derek, didn't we?^^).
There are missing rules.
There are rules contradicting each other.
There are missing stats.
There are wrong stats.
There are (again) wrongly aligned tables (something you can find by just flipping through the book without knowing anything about the system btw...)
There are inconsistencies between rules and fluff text, inconsistancies between rule texts and rule charts, inconsistencies between different chapters etc.
There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...
There's a single freelancer who works hard to explain reasoning and thoughts behind some things in the book (as far as he's allowed to), confirming errors and collecting more errors for future corrections etc...
And (based on this thread and the rigger 5 errata thread) that same person has on occasion:
- commented on errors he already corrected in his submissions before
- talked about rules that should be there but were miraculous cut from the book (how many autosofts can a drone run again?^^)
- refered to core rules that are not in the core book (program ratings are generally limited by device rating? Is there a document including this rule, because it's not in my core book? Is such a document with the complete/corrected rules available for persons working at new books only or could this possibly be worth printing an errata, so people who paid for books could get working rules?)
Again... Rigger 5 is still a far better book than... well... most other sourcebook printed in the last years. (Some of them are waiting for errata for how long again?^^)
There are dozens over dozens of rules and fluff questions in this forum and nearly all of them have one thing in common: Players, who already spend their money on books, spend time to explain rules based on previous editions and consensus reached through forum discussions. Because there's nearly never an official answer. And in the rare cases there is one, it either contradicts itself, the setting, other rules or brings a couple of new questions/inconsistencies.
And now officials here tell us, speaking about "poor quality" is a matter of "personal opinion"?
I don't even know what would make me more sad. You really believing that or being forced to say it because this is an official forum...
Either way, it's insulting.
Insulting to every single person (freelancers included of course) here on the forums, spending days, weeks or even months of their lifetime trying to make a working system out of the mess that gets printed for 5th edition. Just because they love this game...
TL;DR:
Yes, 5th edition is a mess (some books more than others) and unplayable without extensive corrections.
@Players: Get over it... Make your own changes and enjoy your game. There a tons of people here eager to share their insight regarding rules and background. Just don't wait for something official.
@"Officials": Get over it... I really stopped caring if you give us errata'd rules, try to improve future work or just tell us you don't care... But - please, please, pretty please - don't lie to us. After years of 5th ed. we're used to it. But nobody's stupid enough to believe everything's fine and works as intended anymore...
As the main moderator, it's not my job to police how you feel about the products being discussed. However, when you attack individuals working on the product, then I will step in. I honestly don't care if you like or hate 5th Edition rules, or what you think of production qualities. There are ways (as you've just shown) of getting your point across without verbally assaulting other forum members and Catalyst employees and freelancers. Keep it polite and civil, and no moderation is needed.
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Now that we have drone upgrading rules, I need to ask.
Can a Smart Firing Platform (CRB p. 433) be upgraded, if so, what are it's base stats? The only stat we are given is a Pilot of 3, it even mentions using clearsight as a common autosoft, but we don't know the platform's sensor rating.
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Any know if a street date has been announced yet?
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Nothing confirmed yet, AFAIK.
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Now that we have drone upgrading rules, I need to ask.
Can a Smart Firing Platform (CRB p. 433) be upgraded, if so, what are it's base stats? The only stat we are given is a Pilot of 3, it even mentions using clearsight as a common autosoft, but we don't know the platform's sensor rating.
That's a very good question! I'll see if anyone upstairs has anything official in mind, and if not, I'll whip something up.
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That's a very good question! I'll see if anyone upstairs has anything official in mind, and if not, I'll whip something up.
On that note, is there any reason why you can't stick a Smart Firing Platform on a weapon in a weapon mount?
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You could, but A) the Pilot can already fire it and B) it'd take up more space. Probably +2 to how much space is used. Still, it'd be handy if your vehicle only had a Pilot of 1 or 2, so that you could have a dedicated auto-shooting mount doing its own thing.
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You could, but A) the Pilot can already fire it and B) it'd take up more space. Probably +2 to how much space is used. Still, it'd be handy if your vehicle only had a Pilot of 1 or 2, so that you could have a dedicated auto-shooting mount doing its own thing.
It would certainly help vehicles with multiple weapons, and that increase in space is a pretty fair trade for what's effectively a cheap-but-restrictive Ares Sentry V knockoff. Thanks!
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There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...
Try since Street Grimorie was erratad.
Partially, they still didn't cover everything that needed to be addressed, if memory serves me correctly.
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There's no word on any errata after nearly 3 months...
Try since Street Grimorie was erratad.
Partially, they still didn't cover everything that needed to be addressed, if memory serves me correctly.
My point was that was the last anyone heard of official errata... after that release it's just been a Cone of Silence.
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True, very true.
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Heavy handed moderation normal on the shadowrun boards?
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No, but there's a respect rule that does come up now and then. The core concept is "You can attack teh work, but don't attack the creator" more or less.
Some of us have a thicker skin than others, mind you, but politeness is always appreciated. We're a community of gamers, after all, and we like to be welcoming of people, not dismissive. It's ... hrm. It's like teh XKCD post about today's luck 10,000.
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ten_thousand.png)
Introducing people to this hobby, teaching them new things, opening new creative windows, be it in mechanical game design, encouraging artists, or just teaching someone who's heard of roleplaying but never seen it before how to throw some dice and get into character. I'll have a love affair with this hobby until I die, and probably for quite a while after that (Seeing as how I've died twice already, long story, look me up at a con sometime and I'll share 'em),
So when someone comes in here with passion, believe me, I get it, I totally do, but rather than go "You're stupid, you don't know what you're doing, I can't believe you'd blah blah blah", if you go in with a plan, laying out where problems are and asking why, rather than tossing insults, you'll get a LOT more responses and a lot more respect. (You in teh general here, obviously, not singling anyone out.)
Everyone makes mistakes; lord knows I do, but the goal is to not repeat them and to always, always, always strive to improve.
Hope this helps!
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Seems uncharacteristically intolerant of people's views/opinions for a forum...even a company forum.
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Seems uncharacteristically intolerant of people's views/opinions for a forum...even a company forum.
Dude he literally just said you can criticize the work as much as you want, indeed doing so constructively is highly encouraged! Just lay off the personal insults on the people involved.
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Seems uncharacteristically intolerant of people's views/opinions for a forum...even a company forum.
How so? You're allowed to express your opinions quite freely here. All they are asking in return is that posters follow Wheaton's Law: "Don't be a dick." That's one of the things you agreed to when you made an account here. If you look back at the previous page (page 24), Riggerbob laid out a very good post on some of the problems he's found. More importantly, he wasn't being an ass about it: He gave a well thought out list, without personally attacking a writer.
Now compare that with some of the posts that have been complaing, but instead of doing what Riggerbob did, they have attacked writers personally. Things along the lines of "You should quite this job" and worse have been said. Nevermind the fact that it's been stated repeatedly that a lot of the issues are occuring when the product goes from the writers to the higher ups, and that they (Catalyst's management) are aware of the issues, and yet some are still making personal attacks against the writers.
TLDR: You are allowed to express views and opinions all you want, even if they are negative towards SR5; you're not allowed to be a dick about it and attack someone personally.
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@ Wakshaani
I'm totally on your side :) we are very much alike ( well I didn't (yet ) nearly died in a Car Crash but I remember that story of yours
when the Rigger 4 PDF was introduced , and I'm still a Fan of the Hoverboard ;) )
Also
If I read about bad Rules , the next Copy & Paste Mistake or Fluffstories that don't match with the Rules (like in Market Panic)
I REALLY don't want to know who wrote those Stories or rules, or who did or did not check for Contigency.
It's hard enough for me that the Rules or the Fluff are faulty.
If I would know who did thid than (conciously or subconsciously) I'd be angry at this person
and this won't help me at all (it just makes me angry )
( I'm a bit disapointed at you because I asked you personally a Question that you never answered....
But since I don't remember the Question or where I posted it its not important anymore (there Is just this residue of Sadness)
As we say in Germany : Schwamm drüber ( I think :no hard feelings is the translation) )
He who dances with a Sponge
Medicineman
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I missed one? Nuts! I try to stay on top of them all, but sometimes I miss one. (I *still* have to lay out some cyberlimb examples from Chrome Flkesh! Finding time is harder than you'd think.)
If you can find it, let me know and I'll take a swing at it!
My apologies.
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Hey Wakshaani, any chance of getting the German rule for cyberlimbs affecting inherent limits if you've got four limbs added to or at least considered for the English errata?
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Hey Wakshaani, any chance of getting the German rule for cyberlimbs affecting inherent limits if you've got four limbs added to or at least considered for the English errata?
Possibly. If not that, then something else similar. I've got some ideas. :)
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I missed one? Nuts! I try to stay on top of them all, but sometimes I miss one. (I *still* have to lay out some cyberlimb examples from Chrome Flkesh! Finding time is harder than you'd think.)
If you can find it, let me know and I'll take a swing at it!
My apologies.
No Sweat. :)
If I happen to stumble upon it I'll let you know, but I won't search for it activelly .
with a slightly offtopic but necessary Dance
Medicineman
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Hey Wakshaani, any chance of getting the German rule for cyberlimbs affecting inherent limits if you've got four limbs added to or at least considered for the English errata?
Possibly. If not that, then something else similar. I've got some ideas. :)
Hnnnng. Please don't make something that differs from the German edition; I'd honestly you rather just left it alone; there are enough discrepancies between the two already, and I really think that actively adding more is a really Bad Idea (TM).
Ideally, at least in my opinion, the German edition should only be a translation (with or without Errata), not it's own ruleset with unique twists and turns.
Besides, the German rule for cyberlimbs works; if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? :D
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Yes and no, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I agree that the rules should be just a translation, but, in truth, they're doing some top-notch clean-up work and improving things in several areas, so I'm not inclined to mess with their work at all. So, more power to 'em. Makes me wish that I knew German enough to grab the books myself!
*jealous jealous*
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Well, I can help you with that:
p.91 Bodyshop (German Chromeflesh)
"REGELN ZU CYBERGLIEDMASSEN
Cyberschädel und -Torsos
Cyberschädel und -Torsos werden zwar auch als "Cybergliedmaßen" klassifiziert, sind aber tatsächlich eher Hüllen als echter Cyberersatz (oder tatsächliche Gliedmaßen). Das heißt, sie haben keine eigene Geschicklichkeits- und Stärkestufe (und benötigen deswegen auch keine entsprechenden Maßanfertigungen bzw. Cybergliedverstärkungen).
Optionale Regel: Körperliches Limit
Falls ein Character alle vier Gliedmaßen durch Cybergliedmaßen ersetzt hat, werden die relevanten Körperlichen Attribute der Cybergliedmaßen (bzw. der jeweilige Durchschnitt, falls ein Attribut bei unterschiedlichen Cybergliedmaßen unterschiedliche Werte hat) zur Berechnung des Körperlichen Limits herangezogen.
Translation:
RULES FOR CYBERLIMBS
Cyber skull and torsos are also called "cyber limbs", but are actually rather hulls than a real cyber replacement (or real limbs). That means, they have no agility or strength rating of their own (and therefore don't need corresponding enhancements or cyber limb augmentation)
Optional rule: Physical Limit
If a character replaces all four limbs with cyber limbs the relevant physical attributes of the cyberlimbs are taken for the calculation of the Physical Limit (or respectively, the corresponding average if one attribute of the different cyber limbs has differing scores)
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^^^ And now Cyberlimbs are worth while, sweet!
Actually, I already new German version of Chrome Flesh had this in there. Can they just translate he German version and we use that? Might make life easier.
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^^^ And now Cyberlimbs are worth while, sweet!
Actually, I already new German version of Chrome Flesh had this in there. Can they just translate he German version and we use that? Might make life easier.
This was brought up not too long ago, and if I remember the word was pretty much "no." Something about having to pay for translation work.
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I'm not shocked, actually. Only just hoping.
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Yeah, I hope that we get to do a follow-up with more stuff on RCCs and security spiders, at the very least.
Like - dunno - Spider 5.0? :P
As much as I´d loved to see stuff like this in Rigger 5.0 (maybe instead of the ungodly piles off fluff text?),
this sounds like a VERY good idea! Please try and push that!
Could also be used to address some Matrix / Host Security issues and fill the gaps that the Core Rules and Data Trails left open:
- Ways to hide Drones in the Matrix (specialized "passive" stealth dongles for RCC)?
- Can a Host share Autosofts?
- Can a Host run silent?
- Is there such a thing as a "Local Host"/Intranet? (If yes, how does it work? If no, why the hell are spiders and sysops not going nuts about that?!?)
- The "slavin´ slaves"-Problem
- More ´bout ownership
Also, more about security measures and the tools to go around them (basically also making it a C.O. Sourcebook)?
It would also be the perfect place (right after Core and Rigger 5.0, that is ...) to add more insight and better rules for Sensors.
As a primary GM, I´d buy the drek outta that, even given the fact that I´ve already houseruled the more urgent stuff.
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Note to self: Look up that dang Sensor thread. Keeps getting mentioned but never seen it flagged.
As for the 'unGodly' level of fluff, that's always been the standard and, AFAIK, will continue to be. Fluff to crunch is never lower than 80-20, and usually more than that. A book of statlines is around 8 pages. Nobody wants that.
As for bullet points?
Currently, if your drone's wireless, it's on the Matrix. You can cut the wireless off, but then you're going to have some trickier command issues and no remote operation. Part of the give n take of "everything has a price" ... if they can be online, Rigged live, *and* undetectable, where's the downside to balance that?
A good question about hosts and Autosofts. My gut feeling is no ... a host could issue orders, but not remote-operate unless it's connected to some kind of RCC. Chalk it up to code language. (Why are you on Android when everything else is on Windows! Stupid machines!) ... Keep in mind, I could be completely wrong about this. I'll try to see if Aaron will pop by ... he's the Matrix expert.
A Host can't run silent. It has things to do!
There currently isn't a "Local net" around, and every Matrix security team is *screaming* about this, but the CEO wants to play Krill Krush on his commlink while looking through R&D's progress. He's a douche and he'll get this corporation ruined. Maybe this whole 'Monad" thing will get the board to finally listen to the IT guys! (Or more likely they'll ask how much it'll cost, ask about profit, and decide that teh risk is worth more than the upgrade's value.)
Slavin' Slaves is on my list, along with some work on Agents. A finite limit's kind of important.
Ownership's an Aaron thing again. Can't help you there.
And, yeah, there's certainly a need for a detailed look at security foo. The Corporate Security Handbook's, what, 23 years old at this point? Yikes.
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80-20% (4:1) is actually really good. Rigger 5.0 (faults and all) is actually one of my favorite books. Almost perfect amount of crunch to fluff. Chrome Flesh, not so much (way to much fluff). And kill the CDF please. Can't wait until this Metaplot is done. Always been more of a astral threat person than AI/nano AI person. Partially due to lack of interest in Deckers and the Matrix. Riggers though, they are cool. That said, when I want High Fantasy I play Pathfinder, which in some ways has much better rules layout, but less fluff for world (do to the way PF and D&D games are done) which is at time sad.
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Switching topics for a minute, ouching on Chrome Flesh. You mention toomuch fluff. I'm just going to assume, based on teh rest of the statement, that you'd have ripped out the CFD part. WOuld you say, minus that, that it was an acceptable ratio, or is there more that you'd yoink? (I have a pretty good idea of what people wnate dto add, mind you.)
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As for the 'unGodly' level of fluff, that's always been the standard and, AFAIK, will continue to be. Fluff to crunch is never lower than 80-20, and usually more than that. A book of statlines is around 8 pages. Nobody wants that.
For what it is worth, I still have my copy of the 1st edition "ShadowTech" book. It had one piece of gear/ware per page, with a (usually pretty bad) picture, some fluff, and a stat line -- and of course some commentary. I still have it after close to 25 years and a bunch of moves because I liked it. I'm sure it had less overall items than Chrome flesh, but it was easy to read, and the fluff was associated with the crunch. Chrome Flesh starts the crunch on page 54. Given page sizes, I'm guessing that this would be a word count on par with page 100 of a novel? Imagine that you picked up a book touted as a brilliant near future science fiction book, but the plot didn't start until you'd gone through a hundred pages of word building?
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A Host can't run silent. It has things to do!
This is just plain incorrect, Wak. Both published source books and adventures indicate or flat out state that hosts are capable of running silent.
For all intents and purposes, there is no “physical” distance to any host in the Matrix. You can always spot a host from anywhere on the planet without a test, assuming the host isn’t running silent.
[spoiler]
The Data Host is also the more obvious of the two, as the entire Security Host is running silent. To spot it, a character must succeed a Matrix Perception test versus its dice pool of 14. However, the Security Host (and all IC on it) receive a –2 dice pool penalty to all actions due to running silent.
[/spoiler]
Switching topics for a minute, ouching on Chrome Flesh. You mention toomuch fluff. I'm just going to assume, based on teh rest of the statement, that you'd have ripped out the CFD part. WOuld you say, minus that, that it was an acceptable ratio, or is there more that you'd yoink? (I have a pretty good idea of what people wnate dto add, mind you.)
Chrome Flesh suffered mostly from lack of good editing, in my opinion. Where Rigger 5.0 did this well, Chrome Flesh did it wrong. Just a single-page ToC instead of a proper, bookmarked index; no clear separation between fiction and rules (coupled with the former); rules and tables being way too separated making flipping back and forth required for pretty much everything; the entire custom drug chapter (though this is also content, not just editing).
As far as content goes, I always felt the fiction should be in the fiction section, and the rules in the rules section. With the above comments about editing, Chrome Flesh is a good example of how poor layout exacerbates an issue some have with mixing fiction and rules. Fiction is great, but when it comes to describing what a piece of gear actually does I personally want more mechanics and less fluff so that I can actually know what it does without having to guess or extrapolate.
I also wish there had been more substance to Chrome Flesh instead of yet more pages on CFD. We've already got Lockdown, and Stolen Souls, and Data Trails with heaps and loads of source material on CFD; I would have preferred even more advanced medtech rules beyond what Bullets & Bandages and Chrome Flesh already dealt with (like diseases and pathogens, biodrones, cybermancy, and full-on cyborgs, actual honest-to-Spirit rules on upgrading cyberware (!), and so on and so forth).
Not for nothing, but I've kept my 4th Edition books close at hand because for every book that's released for 5th a bunch of equivalent content that in my opinion should have been included in the 5th Edition releases keep getting cut. Then again, the same happened from 3rd to 4th, so I'm not hugely surprised. I just find it harder and harder to justify spending money on books when they contain less substance, if you'll excuse my bluntness. Fiction is nice and good and all that, but there should be a distinct difference between a core rulebook, which in my opinion should be decidedly heavy on the rules, and a setting book, which should be heavy on the fiction.
As it stands, Chrome Flesh at 242 pages doesn't stand up well to Augmentation at 178 pages, when the former has 85 pages of (mostly) hard rules (I say mostly because there's a ton of fluff in between the actual game mechanics, and I don't count the 16 pages of repeated tables at the end) or just around 35% actual rules, while the latter has 83 pages of actual hard rules (again, not counting the 11 pages of repeated tables) for more than 46% actual game mechanics.
Yes, I counted. The point needed to be made, if nothing else ;)
Misunderstand me correctly, though; setting aside the editing, which is just frustrating, the content that is there is good. I just want more of it from a book that retails for $25; I get that fiction may not sell as well, but as someone who's bought every book Catalyst (and FanPro before them, and FASA before them again) ever released for Shadowrun, I'm sure you can see my point of view as well.
Again, fiction is all nice and good, but when I buy a rulebook I expect rules, and hope that they are clear and concise. Simple as that.
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This: "Again, fiction is all nice and good, but when I buy a rulebook I expect rules, and hope that they are clear and concise. Simple as that."
I simply do not understand the thought process that produces a rule/ crunch book like Chrome Flesh that gets filled up with fiction and fluff.
I also agree that the original Street Sam Sourcebook and 1st edition shadowtech were WAY better than the current offerings because you could actually use them to quickly find a piece of hardware that had clearly written rules with the minor amount of fluff right next to to the crunch.
The current methodology of pumping the crunch book full of fluff and fiction makes them bloated, uneasy to access and use at the table.
Which is kind of the point of a crunch book.
I mean it's like someone took the cap off the firehose and just pumped these crunch books full of mostly irrelevant fiction and fluff, and all it does is reduce the utility of the crunch and confuse what the author's intent actually was.
It's a loss all around imho.
I just don't get it.
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setting aside the editing, which is just frustrating, the content that is there is good.
Quoted for emphasis. I do want to point out that, my frustrations aside, there is a lot of good in Chrome Flesh, and I don't regret buying it. It is possible that I would have found it less frustrating in dead trees rather than pdf, but I was impatient (and cheap). I do think it did to much 'telling' and not enough 'showing', but that seems to be a general editorial decision in SR5 that I should probably just stop whingeing about.
And back to Rigger 5 -- I don't at all regret buying it in hard copy. I don't love every vehicle in there, or fully agree with how some of the customization rules are set out, but that is only to be expected -- and on the flip side I found a number of vehicles quite inspiring and we'll be making use of the modification rules with only minor tweaks, and overall it is a book that I'll be picking up again and again. AND I didn't find the fluff in there aggravating at all. I'm not sure if it is a ratio thing, an editing thing, a paper vs pdf thing, some of all of the above ...
One thing that I found curious, there was a racing bike in there, which in the fluff was described as the newest and fastest thing out there. And which has the exact same game stats as the Mirage racing bike in the core rules. That sort of mis-match of fluff and editing could use a bit of work. Simply having some Jackpoint poster coming in to say something like "Unless you are timing the bikes on a track, it is unlikely you'll be able to tell the difference between this and a Mirage--except for the higher price tag" would have softened the fluff/stat dissonance.
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I think that that's one of the ones that got changed in the last round of editing. There were a few tweaks, some larger than others. A lot of vehicles had their armor reduced, for instance, as it would have taken milspec heavy weapons to scratch 'em. Some got faster or slower, some had seating changes ... lots of lil' stuff. Not my chapter tho, so I couldn't begin to lay out the exacts. I think that one bike was an accidental casualty.
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Note to self: Disable sarcasm module when suggesting stuff, so people don´t get defensive. ;D
Regarding the fluff/crunch ratio: I think for the 4th Ed. Supplements (not the sourcebooks) the ratio was a little bit crunchier than 20/80. I wouldn´t want the supplements to make my gums bleed, but given the fact that there are also many sourcebooks that are 100% Fluff, I wouldn´t aim for 20/80 and more for a 40/60 ratio. Also there´s the crunchy fluff (cruff? flunch?) like usefull tipps and information backing up the rules and more fluffy fluff (floof? fluff2?) that looks suspicious like it´s just there to boost the page count, like some of the chat logs. But that´s just my opinion. If you guys´n gals stretch content that was very compressed in the 4th supplements over multiple sourcebooks, that´s totally acceptable. I don´t mind a fluffier approach, as long as vital chrunch is not ommited or delayed into oblivion - which is the main reason why people are acting up about Rigger 5.0, teh friggen Errata and the missing TM Supplement.
Regarding the bullet points: Although I really appreciate your quick answers, for once, these weren´t meant to be answered right away.
Please, see these as suggestions for stuff that could be adressed in a Security/Spiders/C.O.-Sourcebook :)
Just one thing about these: I wasn´t talking about a way to make Drones completely undetectable, just a way to help them evade Matrix perception for a little longer - i.e. a way to get a Stealth Attribute, be it via RCC or an individual modification. Of course they run in wireless mode when being wirelessly controlled, but they can still run silent, just like every other device. Currently, they would only defend with the Rigger´s Logic against Matrix Detection. That´s why some people are concerned with the RCCs (in)ability to have stealth plugin: For a sneaky recon Rigger, having a Stealth Attribute is quite important. And these 1-2 points you can get by modifying the RCC aren´t that much.
Note to self: Look up that dang Sensor thread. Keeps getting mentioned but never seen it flagged.
As for the 'unGodly' level of fluff, that's always been the standard and, AFAIK, will continue to be. Fluff to crunch is never lower than 80-20, and usually more than that. A book of statlines is around 8 pages. Nobody wants that.
As for bullet points?
Currently, if your drone's wireless, it's on the Matrix. You can cut the wireless off, but then you're going to have some trickier command issues and no remote operation. Part of the give n take of "everything has a price" ... if they can be online, Rigged live, *and* undetectable, where's the downside to balance that?
A good question about hosts and Autosofts. My gut feeling is no ... a host could issue orders, but not remote-operate unless it's connected to some kind of RCC. Chalk it up to code language. (Why are you on Android when everything else is on Windows! Stupid machines!) ... Keep in mind, I could be completely wrong about this. I'll try to see if Aaron will pop by ... he's the Matrix expert.
A Host can't run silent. It has things to do!
There currently isn't a "Local net" around, and every Matrix security team is *screaming* about this, but the CEO wants to play Krill Krush on his commlink while looking through R&D's progress. He's a douche and he'll get this corporation ruined. Maybe this whole 'Monad" thing will get the board to finally listen to the IT guys! (Or more likely they'll ask how much it'll cost, ask about profit, and decide that teh risk is worth more than the upgrade's value.)
Slavin' Slaves is on my list, along with some work on Agents. A finite limit's kind of important.
Ownership's an Aaron thing again. Can't help you there.
And, yeah, there's certainly a need for a detailed look at security foo. The Corporate Security Handbook's, what, 23 years old at this point? Yikes.
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Switching topics for a minute, ouching on Chrome Flesh. You mention toomuch fluff. I'm just going to assume, based on teh rest of the statement, that you'd have ripped out the CFD part. WOuld you say, minus that, that it was an acceptable ratio, or is there more that you'd yoink? (I have a pretty good idea of what people wnate dto add, mind you.)
Sorry it has taken me a bit to get back to you. But yeah, it would be a lot closer minus the CDF stuff, maybe more with on healing, true cyborgs, and some cybermancy as well for kicks. I'm am personally looking forward to CDF being done with. Been my least favorite Metaplot of all of them I have read about, so far.
On topic, I have issues with the RoadMaster being the toughest ground vehicle, even when compared to the mil-spec/Security vehicles like the Rhino, which is fluffwise super tough, but weaker than the RoadMaster overall, even if the Rhino comes with some nice pre-installed mods.
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Seems that this has hit the streets (at least the online ones):
CoolStuffInc (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/main_search.php?pa=searchOnName&page=1&resultsPerPage=25&q=rigger+5)
Miniature Market (http://www.miniaturemarket.com/ssearch?q=rigger+5)
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Thank you for the heads-up. Ordered!
Hopeful I'll get it before my next session.
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I just saw a copy at my local game store. So it should be on the streets too.
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Seriously, this is the 2nd book in a row to hit the streets without any form of announcement about the date... someone needs a kick i the pants to get back to work.
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It does seems like simple enough PR, indeed. More generally, there is lack of update on the official website about releasing product. You can find stuff, generally on tumblr if you dig a bit, this should be fixed. It's not to much to ask (as customer) to be able to google "shadowrun", go to the official website, and get all the relevant information.
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Seems that this has hit the streets (at least the online ones):
CoolStuffInc (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/main_search.php?pa=searchOnName&page=1&resultsPerPage=25&q=rigger+5)
Miniature Market (http://www.miniaturemarket.com/ssearch?q=rigger+5)
Cool,so that means it should be in my local store in about a month or so if I'm lucky.
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Cool,so that means it should be in my local store in about a month or so if I'm lucky.
Just did a quick search at Lion Rampant Imports (one of the main Canadian distributors)...appears that it (along with the LE version) is now available.
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I could buy it in a shop in Berlin (Germany, Europe) last week - and this shop (while quite good) is not famous for being the most "on time" on their delivery, so honestly you should find it in Canada !
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Cool,so that means it should be in my local store in about a month or so if I'm lucky.
Just did a quick search at Lion Rampant Imports (one of the main Canadian distributors)...appears that it (along with the LE version) is now available.
eh with my luck it will still be a month before I get a copy.
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I walked into my FLGS I Ottawa on March 12 and they had the book on display. I don't know how long they'd had it, but it has certainly been in some stores on this side of the border for a good while.
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It feels like all PR money and effort is used on Battletech or game-streaming
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I walked into my FLGS I Ottawa on March 12 and they had the book on display. I don't know how long they'd had it, but it has certainly been in some stores on this side of the border for a good while.
Talk to the owner of my FLGS and it looks like I might be getting a copy in on Friday but I still not holding my breath
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And my copy was in today. now to figure out what my rigger can afford and still make next months rent.
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And my copy was in today. now to figure out what my rigger can afford and still make next months rent.
A van with a pallet and portable stove in the back so you don't need to pay rent? ;D
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And my copy was in today. now to figure out what my rigger can afford and still make next months rent.
A van with a pallet and portable stove in the back so you don't need to pay rent? ;D
Spoken like a true rigger!
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And my copy was in today. now to figure out what my rigger can afford and still make next months rent.
A van with a pallet and portable stove in the back so you don't need to pay rent? ;D
So would buying a vehicle that has a built in lifestyle be the same as permanently buying that lifestyle?
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I'd call it a street lifestyle which is free. Anything you want (breakfast, lunch, dinner, shower) has to be paid for. The point of lifestyle is so that we don't have to count dollars spent on regular meals, and roleplay paying for electricity, water, sewer, etc. Lifestyle isn't just rent, but also represents money you spend on clothes, food, rolls of duct tape at the store etc.
When you park it to go to sleep, you have to worry about security, cops writing citations for camping in a non designated area (people do this now and its called stealth camping).
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I believe the traveler lifestyle covers that
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Traveler's lifestyle goes cover food, gas, etc.
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Question for you, Wakshaani: what do Smart Tires do?
A few vehicles, the Thundercloud Mustang being one of them, are listed as having them as standard equipment, but their function is not listed anywhere. The SR4 description doesn't quite translate over easily, and it'd be nice to have a response to this for Missions where handling tests are actually required (and I'm assuming here that tires relate to handling somehow).
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Not sure! It's not from my work. It's on teh FAQ that went upstairs, tho.
My *guess* would be "Reduces maneuver penalties by (an amount)" but I don't knwo for certain.
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Ah, no worries. By FAQ do you mean Errata, or is there a FAQ document intend for public consumption in the works, or something else entirely?
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Me gathering up questions, errata notes, and more, from, like, five different locations, compiling them all, then sending them upstairs. I don't know when corrections will come down from on high, but, I tried to push everythig I could find up there for resolution.
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Me gathering up questions, errata notes, and more, from, like, five different locations, compiling them all, then sending them upstairs. I don't know when corrections will come down from on high, but, I tried to push everythig I could find up there for resolution.
Hey, Wak. I want to say thanks for all your work trying to make SR not only by writing the fiction and rules, but actually coming here putting up with this communities crap and trying to help fix what is broken. I know I am one, among many, who has bitched about lack of errata and official responses, but again thank you for all your hard work and putting up with our crap.
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It's my pleasure! I'm a fan first, and I want the game to be the best it can be. That means fixing it when we mess up and it means owning it when I screw up.
You're allowed to make mistakes... you just gotta learn from it and do better next time.
Still a long way to go, but we're gettin' there.
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I'd also like to say thanks Wak, your efforts are very much appreciated.
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I'd like to echo the comments made by Rift and adzling, Wakshaani, and thank you for all your hard work. Your engagement with the community is very much appreciated!
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Here is a sort of crunch vs fluff question that Wakshaani might be able to answer. How many actual seats is the bulldog suppose to have. the crunch stat lines says it have 6 seats but some of the fluff seems to indicate that it doesn't have any passenger seating at all any other then the driver have to sit on the floor in the back.
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Fabe, you mean you've never seen someone yank out all the seats in their van to have extra cargo space?
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Fabe, you mean you've never seen someone yank out all the seats in their van to have extra cargo space?
Well its just this bit from the description of the ford econovan
While most riggers tent to go with the bulldog or governor ,the econovan has something important they do not: seats
So that just got me thinking,does the bulldog lack passenger seating or is this just more fluff that clashes with the rules?
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I, personally, use the seats given as general metahuman sizes space to shove runners into. Sorry Trolls (and their ilk), you take double the "seats", unless it was built for them in which case us normal size folk only take up half a "seat".
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I didn't do ground vehicles, so I can't give you the intent there.
Before we were doing RIgger 5, I was working on vehicle stuff for myself, and seating was one I kept kicking around. My version was probably too fiddly, and I was using the classic "Body is your mods" way, which is different than the actual designer went with. I had:
Bench Seat
Bucket Seat (Standard)
Bucket Seat (Large)
Bucket Seat (Troll)
Bucket Seat (Dwarf)
Rigger Cocoon
There should be one or two more in that, but this is off the top of my head. Bench seats let you squeeze another person in (as long as you were friendly), but the middle position didn't have a seat belt and being cramped wasn't fun. Buckets were normal in the front, and you could replace one bench with two normal buckets, or upgrade a normal bucket to a Large at a smallhit to your mods (1) ... Troll-sized seats required you to remove a seat entirely (Either the passenger seat for smaller cars or to convert the back bench to a single bucket on the passenger side) Dwarf seating took up a little *less* space, unless it was for the driver, since additional gear would be needed to convert it to one that they could drive.
Again, a tad fiddly.
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I might just be a reference to the Evonovan having 10 seats compared to the Bulldogs 6 seats
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Remember also that "Seats" is an abstraction of both passenger and cargo capacity.
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Eh,I'm just going to say the my riggers bulldog has some bench seats big enough to fit the rest of the team. The rule are vague enough in this case I think it woun't be that big of a deal
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I noticed this only because of Hero Labs, but shouldn't the drones with arms and legs in Lost Souls have been updated to include drone arms and legs automagically?
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Not necessarily. Anthromorphic drones are their own subcategory of walkers. The Dueslist isn't an Anthro, for example, despite being humanoid-ish.
...
I'm gonna have to work on Rigger 5.1 I think.
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The Duelist isn't an anthroform? Whut?
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It's a Walker, but not an Anthroform. Right now, there are only the six from Rigger 5 that are officially Anthroform.
I wanted to reclassify it, but, with such a low price, and the lack of hands (those blades are built in!), I had to rebuild it to fit it in with the rest. But, the rebuild of pre-existing drones, as I've mentioned before, didn't get dropped in. So ... bleah.
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I know you didn't work on Hard Targets (and I don't know if you have read it yet), but the Mitsuhama Akyama as well as the Sparring Drone are described explicitly as anthroform and humanoid.
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They caught me offguard, as I got to see that published right as I was finishing up my stuff. I *think* I put both in ... no, no, I didn't. I'd gone through and checked every drone published up to that point, but those got past the list.
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On the subject of drone classifications is the Aztech Crawler still a walker drone as listed in the core book or is it now a tracked/ground drone?
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I changed the entire statline, so that it was back to what it was for four editions, but that didn't go through (along with the rest of the earlier-printed drones) ... so, until (unless!) it gets errata, it's still a dirt-cheap walker with a Pilot 4.
(The modified statlines should be floating around here someplace. If not, I can dig 'em out and repost 'em if needed.)
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(The modified statlines should be floating around here someplace. If not, I can dig 'em out and repost 'em if needed.)
You mentioned that earlier in the errata thread (and the lack of any faq or meaningful errata made me put notes to any relevant forum posts into my pdfs *sigh*)
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22807.msg420702#msg420702 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22807.msg420702#msg420702)
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I tried searching for modified statlines and could only find this thread. :(
Wakshaani could you please repost them.
Thanks
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ShadowMaster
Your search-fu is weak. Allow me to show you the way.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22807.msg420702#msg420702
(PS: Search for "Body" in posts made by Wakshaani.)
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ShadowMaster
Your search-fu is weak. Allow me to show you the way.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22807.msg420702#msg420702
(PS: Search for "Body" in posts made by Wakshaani.)
Thanks, and darn the ones I really wanted to see are the ones from Stolen Soles, and I don't see those listed.
The modified versions of drones break the customization rules and wanted to see what they should look like.
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For those interested in collecting the limited editions, Miniature Market is having a sale (celebrating launch of new website) on this one:
Shadowrun 5th Edition RPG: Rigger 5.0 - Limited Edition (Hardcover) (Launch Sale) (http://www.miniaturemarket.com/cat27007le.html)
50% off, 11 in stock. ;)