Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Ravennus on <07-16-13/0259:18>
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First off.... great job on SR5! I'm still reading it whenever I have the chance, but it definitely seems to have a certain something that SR4 lacked for me.
That said, I want to comment on something that I noticed regarding cyberlimbs.
This was actually a pet peeve of mine regarding previous editions as well, and I was surprised that with all the changes this ended up staying.
Basically it's this:
Cyberlimb Unarmed DV = STR
Titanium Bone Lacing DV= STR + 3
Bone Density Bioware Lv. 4 DV= STR + 3
"Knucks" DV= STR + 1
Here's what I've never understood.
You can take a flesh and blood (meta)human...... lace his bones with plastic, aluminum or titanium.... and his punches will hit harder and for more damage than a fully replaced cyberlimb.
You can also take that same guy, and instead use bioware to "naturally" toughen up his bones.... and he still hits harder than someone with a fully artificial limb.
Hell, you can strap some reinforced gloves on a guy and he'll do more physical damage than someone with a cyberlimb.
I'm just not sure of the reasoning.
Whether a cyberlimb is made of various plastics, or indeed incorporates stronger titanium (or other metal) into it's structure.... it should always punch or kick harder than someone with just some metal laced bones or bioware bones. It's said many times that modern 2075 cyberlimb's can naturally withstand more stress than a normal flesh-and-blood limb. So I'm confused why it would be at a disadvantage here?
I've heard it argued before that the extra damage from Bone Lacing or Bone Density is due to the ENTIRE body being modified to withstand the stress of a harder punch and reinforce it, whereas the cyberlimb is limited by the natural flesh it's attached to. If this is true, why do brass knuckles or hardliner gloves still do more damage?
Ideally I would like to see cyberlimbs do at least as much damage as titanium bone lacing. But if that is too much, might I suggest a very low capacity mod that essentially "toughens up" the cyberlimb for unarmed combat and thus increases the unarmed DV? I could even see it scaling.... like +1 DV per level (max +3, or maybe even +4 to give it some advantage over bone lacing and bone density augs). It would perhaps cost 1 capacity per level. *shrug* That's the only compromise I can think of.
Anywho, discuss. Maybe I'm crazy!
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You can also enhance your cyberlimb strength to STR + 3. Not much of an answer when the alternative is muscle augs for +4 & the +3DV, but eh. You have more condition boxes and capacity.
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yeah its a balance thing. but honestly just put spurs in yr arm and you get yr extra +3 as well as superhigh cyberlimb enhanced str and agi
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yeah its a balance thing. but honestly just put spurs in yr arm and you get yr extra +3 as well as superhigh cyberlimb enhanced str and agi
So how is this a balance thing? Honestly curious as to the reason this would imbalance anything.
IMHO, cyberlimbs have been underpowered for a while now.
Also, cyberlimb str and agi mods max out at +3 now... which is also less than muscle augs.
So even with a maxed out cyberlimb, you will do less damage than someone with laced bones and replaced muscles.
As for the spurs, I don't want to attack people with a blade. *shrug* Not really the same thing.
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IMHO, cyberlimbs have been underpowered for a while now.
:o
Granted that it's your opinion, but you and I must have very different definitions of "underpowered".
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IMHO, cyberlimbs have been underpowered for a while now.
:o
Granted that it's your opinion, but you and I must have very different definitions of "underpowered".
In some cases they were, like the unarmed damage the OP is discussing. The armor was fine. The only problem with them was the cheese that came from the ones that would leave Agi at 1 and max out the attribute with a single limb expecting to be allowed to only use that limb for firing their pistol.
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IMHO, cyberlimbs have been underpowered for a while now.
:o
Granted that it's your opinion, but you and I must have very different definitions of "underpowered".
In some cases they were, like the unarmed damage the OP is discussing. The armor was fine. The only problem with them was the cheese that came from the ones that would leave Agi at 1 and max out the attribute with a single limb expecting to be allowed to only use that limb for firing their pistol.
Exactly. Sorry for making the blanket "underpowered" statement.
Yes, there were hedge cases and rules abuse scenarios where cyberlimbs exceled.
But unfortunately, most of the time they simply aren't as efficient as other augmention options.
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re balance reasons: a cyberarm for 1 essence gets you 3 armour, 9 str and 9 agility if not higher if yr ork etc, for very little nuyen. plus other capacity for other cool stuff, including grapple guns, sensors and smuggling compartments. plus 1 extra box of condition monitor i think. that is a lot of win. for balance reasons, then, you do not also get +3 melee dmg like bone lacing. that would make limbs even more OP and lacing/spurs etc largely redundant.
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yeah its a balance thing. but honestly just put spurs in yr arm and you get yr extra +3 as well as superhigh cyberlimb enhanced str and agi
So how is this a balance thing? Honestly curious as to the reason this would imbalance anything.
IMHO, cyberlimbs have been underpowered for a while now.
Also, cyberlimb str and agi mods max out at +3 now... which is also less than muscle augs.
So even with a maxed out cyberlimb, you will do less damage than someone with laced bones and replaced muscles.
As for the spurs, I don't want to attack people with a blade. *shrug* Not really the same thing.
Is it something to do with unarmed strikes not just being powered solely from the limb and muscle augs / bone augs affect the entire body, whereas cyber limbs affect just that limb.
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yeah its a balance thing. but honestly just put spurs in yr arm and you get yr extra +3 as well as superhigh cyberlimb enhanced str and agi
So how is this a balance thing? Honestly curious as to the reason this would imbalance anything.
IMHO, cyberlimbs have been underpowered for a while now.
Also, cyberlimb str and agi mods max out at +3 now... which is also less than muscle augs.
So even with a maxed out cyberlimb, you will do less damage than someone with laced bones and replaced muscles.
As for the spurs, I don't want to attack people with a blade. *shrug* Not really the same thing.
Is it something to do with unarmed strikes not just being powered solely from the limb and muscle augs / bone augs affect the entire body, whereas cyber limbs affect just that limb.
That is part of what I would guess. I would also guess that bone density and bone lacing also cause less give, as the
cyberlimbs are designed to mimic human function. Note that the Cyberlimb is STILL doing Physical damage, not stun,
like a normal unarmed attack, so it is faster to beat someone to death with a cyberarm then a normal arm. However, I
think, for the most part, it has to do with limits in the cyberlimbs attachment to the body that prevent it from bringing as
much force to bear as when one can put their whole body into the punch.
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You'll notice I addressed this concern in my original post.
It doesn't hold water because you can buy "knucks" which allow anyone to do STR+1 Physical damage with a punch.
A cyberlimb at least encompasses the entire arm/shoulder while hardliner gloves would only provide some reinforced materials over the knuckles.
So the whole "cyberlimbs are weaker because they don't reinforce the entire body" argument makes no sense in this context.
Besides, what about situations where I get a Cyber-torso? If you go full body with 4 limbs and a torso it still doesn't make a difference to your unarmed damage.
I don't know, this is just one of those "legacy" rules which never made sense.
To be fair, it's always been difficult to go "full metal" in Shadowrun. In fact, it's highly discouraged. Other than a cyberlimb being a veritable swiss-army limb, there have almost always been better options.
I suppose they didn't want all the street sams to end up like Robocop, or maybe some developer in the past hated the idea of full-conversion cyborgs and didn't want the game to end up like CP2020 or Rifts. *shrug*
I also don't think it's "easy" to get cyberlimbs with 9 STR and 9 AGI in Chargen.
For one, to get that with only one limb is still expensive.... but it's only good for actions specifically (and only) involving that limb.
To get 9 STR and 9 AGI to apply to most of your actions, you'll need all 4 limbs replaced. Since this also costs a hell of a lot of essence, you'll likely want at least Alphaware which increases the costs further (especially now that there is a rule that all mods to 'ware MUST be the same grade as the original 'ware).
Even if you can afford that, the potential is still less than other cyberware or bioware.
A human could get 9 Str and 9 Agility with cyberlimbs, but max out at 10 STR and 10 AGI with muscle augs. They will also hit +3 harder with bone augs, and soak just as much damage when you combine things like bone density and orthoskin.
I guess my bias is showing through though. It's always been a fantasy of mine to play a full conversion cyborg in Shadowrun, but it's never really worked. The whole unarmed damage issue is just one of the reasons. *shrug*
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It doesn't hold water because you can buy "knucks" which allow anyone to do STR+1 Physical damage with a punch.
If the cyber arm still has the give in the hand like a normal hand, then Knucks would work like brass-knuckles or a
roll of nickels: It stops the give, forcing the kinetic energy of the punch to all transfer to the target, instead of some
of it transferring to your hand.
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Alternately, you could take cyber melee implants. All current melee cyber works off Unarmed Combat.
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It doesn't hold water because you can buy "knucks" which allow anyone to do STR+1 Physical damage with a punch.
If the cyber arm still has the give in the hand like a normal hand, then Knucks would work like brass-knuckles or a
roll of nickels: It stops the give, forcing the kinetic energy of the punch to all transfer to the target, instead of some
of it transferring to your hand.
Sorry, I don't buy it. In no way would any decent cyberlimb have the same "give" as a normal flesh and blood hand.
This sort of sounds like you are stretching to prove a point, or explain why the designers would have a metal and plastic cyberlimb do less damage than a pair of reinforced gloves.
Unfortunately there is no explaining it from a "lore" perspective. But from a purely game mechanics perspective? "Balance"? Sure (even though I don't agree). A dev from multiple editions ago hated cyberlimbs? Ok.
But there isn't a logical reason why someone with brass knuckles would hit harder than someone with a super customized mechanical limb.
Alternately, you could take cyber melee implants. All current melee cyber works off Unarmed Combat.
Still kinda missing the point. I don't want to claw at someone with razors or gut them with spurs. Just a good 'ol fashion cybernetic punch to the face! It just sucks that everyone else can do it better.
That's not exactly how I would have pictured cyberlimbs.
Anyway, sorry to carry on about this. This is clearly one of those Shadowrun quirks that will never change. Dragons, magic and laser guns are ok in Shadowrun... but for some reason capable full-body cyborgs are frowned on.
Every edition I hope for an improvement, but end up disappointed.
In SR4 there were the first full body cyborgs that used special brain cases and rigger vehicle rules. It was interesting at first, but proved far too unwieldy and unattainable for PC use.
SR3 had Cyber-zombies.... but they were similarly unwieldy and out of reach of most players. Even if you were made into a Cyberzombie and accepted the extensive drawbacks, you were still far better off NOT going for cyberlimbs.
Either option wasn't really helpful, except in a couple rare cases for interesting NPC encounters.
I still love my cyberware, and would love to create my own version of Adam Jensen for example.... but with the current rules, a ganger with muscle augs and brass knuckles would punch through a wall far more easily than Shadowrun Adam Jensen and his cyberlimbs. Oh well
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They have the same Strength and mister Jensen can grab some brass knuckles too. Plus he gets the other benefits of cyberlimbs. And the thing is cheaper.
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Huh, thought I was missing something. I would imagine at least some sort of modification that takes up capacity to harden a cyberlimb for unarmed.
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And why can't you wear knucks on your cyberarm?
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And why can't you wear knucks on your cyberarm?
Why should I?
It's a futuristic bionic arm. I can put guns and swords and such in it, a gyroscope, all sorts of things. But I can't mess with its hardness?
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Yeah. That's the limit of functionality you get with a bog-standard cyberlimb. Perhaps they'll add more to that in whatever augmentation book eventually comes out. If you're not playing in Missions, ask your GM fluff the current batch of cyber implants as bashing weapons, rather than cutting weapons.
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Doesn't the Street Samurai archetype have 11-Strength, 9-Agility cyberarms with retractable cyber spurs in one of them? Sure, they cost about a hundred thousand (15k for the arm itself, an extra 40k to customize them to 8/6, hitting an Ork's natural maximum for both Strength and Agility, and another 39k to enhance them to 11/9, plus 5k if you want the spurs), and his entire build is about 200k over the nuyen limit since they increased the pricing later on, but the point is you can have a character with X Strength and a natural maximum of 8 Strength, who has 11 Strength for the sake of punching, and who can deal either 11S (I assume cyberarm punches are still Stun damage?), or 14P/-2, with that arm. Plus if you drop the Agility Enhancement by 1 level, you can pack all that in a synthetic instead of an obvious cyberarm for 1.5k less.
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(I assume cyberarm punches are still Stun damage?)
Neg. It is Physical. That is why I do not see a problem with it being (STR)P damage. The hand is still not as solid as
a fist-loaded hand, or a rigid bludgeon over the hand, but it is more solid then the unaugmented hand, hence why it
does P damage instead of S.
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Ah, right, missed that bit on page 456. Thanks.
In that case, I really don't see the problem - with cyberware, you can deal [Natural Strength + 7]P, while with a cyberlimb, you can deal [Natural Maximum Strength + 3]P, and with spurs, that becomes [Natural Maximum Strength + 6]P. So unless you hardcap your Strength, cyberlimbs are on par or better when it comes to maximum damage output, plus make your damage output independent of your actual Strength - well, unless a cyberlimb's Strength doesn't affect your physical Limit when solely using said cyberlimb for an action, I guess?
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if you want higher dmg cyberarm just take spurs and "refluff" them as hardening or something. imo no reasonable GM is going to argue with you, esp if you also forgoe the 1 point reach bonus.
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I'm not following your math, Ze. How are you getting Str+7/Str+6/etc.?
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Natural (Maximum) Strength. With augmentations you can go up 4 above your current Natural Strength, with cyberlimbs you can go at most 3 above the maximum of natural strength as raw stat, and at most 4 above your Natural Strength as effective stat. On top of that comes the weapon/ware damage. If I have 6 strength, +4 Strength from ware and Lacing for (Str+3)P damage, I end up at natural strength + 7 damage (+4+3). With 5 Strength, a 9-Strength cyberlimb with spurs will be at 12 (so Str+7) damage, it just means I can't hit that 13P but with my attribute 1 lower (or not, really) I can still settle for 12P.
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Oh... I would've included the Str boost from whatever in the (STR+) part of the formula. I do see why you would keep it separate now. Sorry for being a bit slow, I've been slogging a bit as I work my way through the book. It's a bit more of an adjustment than I expected.
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I'm not following - isn't the cyberlimb stat max equal to your racial max (i.e. Human 6 strength) before a potential +3 from Enhancements?
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Yes, so your max is 6+3, +3 from the spurs = 12P damage. But you still face the fact your Augmented Maximum is Natural Attribute + 4, so if you're below 5 Strength, that 6+3 would get capped.
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Yes, so your max is 6+3, +3 from the spurs = 12P damage. But you still face the fact your Augmented Maximum is Natural Attribute + 4, so if you're below 5 Strength, that 6+3 would get capped.
So why does the Street Sam archetype have a pair of Str11 cyberarms?
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*shrugs* He has 670k in gear to begin with, and the Augmented Maximum rule is very hidden.
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Because cyber limbs have their own stats and don't gear about the characters augmented max.
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Yes, so your max is 6+3, +3 from the spurs = 12P damage. But you still face the fact your Augmented Maximum is Natural Attribute + 4, so if you're below 5 Strength, that 6+3 would get capped.
So why does the Street Sam archetype have a pair of Str11 cyberarms?
bec hes an ork
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He only has a natural Strength of 5, so his augmented maximum is 9, not 11.
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I'm with Mäx on this one - cyberlimbs have their own attributes, they don't augment your personal attributes, so I don't think the +4 limit applies here. Theoretically, I think a 1-Strength character could have a 6+3 = 9-Strength cyberarm, and a 5-strength Troll with Exceptional Attribute could have an 11+3 = 14-Strength cyberarm (provided their GM doesn't beat them unconscious when they suggest it).
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Because he's an ork with a natural max Str of 8, so +3 puts him at 11?
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Because he's an ork with a natural max Str of 8, so +3 puts him at 11?
Augmented max is current attribute + 4 now.
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Psikerlord, Baron: DWC meant "If, like you say, the +4 limit to augmented attributes also applies to your Cyberlimb Strength (compared to your natural Strength), then why would the Street Samurai Archetype, who has 5 natural Strength, bother with 11-Strength cyberarms, which would get capped to 9-Strength by the Augmented limit"?
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Psikerlord, Baron: DWC meant "If, like you say, the +4 limit to augmented attributes also applies to your Cyberlimb Strength (compared to your natural Strength), then why would the Street Samurai Archetype, who has 5 natural Strength, bother with 11-Strength cyberarms, which would get capped to 9-Strength by the Augmented limit"?
A mistake just like the mistake that resulted in him having almost 700 thousand nuyen worth of gear and implants.
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Is a cyberlimb's Str capped by your natural Str? If so, I'd guess the sample char was made by someone that didn't know it or the rule wasn't in place when he was designed.
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Is a cyberlimb's Str capped by your natural Str? If so, I'd guess the sample char was made by someone that didn't know it or the rule wasn't in place when he was designed.
This is a case that's best to assume it is until proven otherwise, IMO. But then I hate with a fiery burning passion the whole "Cyber Arm of Awesome" crap that got pulled by some people on the boards in the prior edition.
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Psikerlord, Baron: DWC meant "If, like you say, the +4 limit to augmented attributes also applies to your Cyberlimb Strength (compared to your natural Strength), then why would the Street Samurai Archetype, who has 5 natural Strength, bother with 11-Strength cyberarms, which would get capped to 9-Strength by the Augmented limit"?
A mistake just like the mistake that resulted in him having almost 700 thousand nuyen worth of gear and implants.
So it's a "they changed the rules afterwards" mistake, like with augmentation pricing and Critical Strike and Enhanced Accuracy levels?
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Aaron atleast stated that cyberlimbs dont follow augmentantion bonus limit, he stated exactly what i said in my last post when the augmented max came up in one of the pre realease conversations.
And having seen all the rules that logic holds water, no matter how much i personally dont like it(this is the one and only place where the aug max being tied to current natural attribute would have been a positive change)
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A fist of flesh does the same damage as a fist of steel. Except it doesn't, the cyber limb does physical damage, not stun. Also knucks cause more damage because physics. Smaller contact points. Higher force on point of impact. Buy knucks, put them on cyber limb. Better yet, build them in for 15 bucks or something. It would not take capacity to add knuckle studs.
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It takes capacity to add individual fingertip compartments; I doubt knuckle studs would be exempt, if they were statted.
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The imba thing about cyberlimbs is the extra armor that stack. 2 hands. 2 feet. 1 Essence. +12 (!?!) Armor.
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I myself consider buying arms on the growth a nice thing, but yes that rule needs more clarification.
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A fist of flesh does the same damage as a fist of steel. Except it doesn't, the cyber limb does physical damage, not stun. Also knucks cause more damage because physics. Smaller contact points. Higher force on point of impact. Buy knucks, put them on cyber limb. Better yet, build them in for 15 bucks or something. It would not take capacity to add knuckle studs.
A fist of flesh can actually do Str+3 DV Physical (if that flesh is modified with Bone Density Bioware)
Knucks cause less damage than both cyberware and bioware bone augmentations. So much for physics and your smaller contact points. ;)
I still think it's strange that a pair of brass knuckles do more physical damage than a metal cyberlimb, and yet less than a modified bone structure. But to each their own.
It's easy enough to houserule. I've done it in the past but I prefer not to use house rules as much as possible. *shrug*
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A fist of flesh does the same damage as a fist of steel. Except it doesn't, the cyber limb does physical damage, not stun. Also knucks cause more damage because physics. Smaller contact points. Higher force on point of impact. Buy knucks, put them on cyber limb. Better yet, build them in for 15 bucks or something. It would not take capacity to add knuckle studs.
A fist of flesh can actually do Str+3 DV Physical (if that flesh is modified with Bone Density Bioware)
Knucks cause less damage than both cyberware and bioware bone augmentations. So much for physics and your smaller contact points. ;)
I still think it's strange that a pair of brass knuckles do more physical damage than a metal cyberlimb, and yet less than a modified bone structure. But to each their own.
It's easy enough to houserule. I've done it in the past but I prefer not to use house rules as much as possible. *shrug*
I said they do more damage because of physics. A fist augmented with fantasy bone modifications that would have no real life effects will obviously do more damage that something based on physics in a game. Furthermore, an augmented fist isn't exactly a fist of flesh. My intent invalidates your arguement. You compared something entirely seperate than I did. Try to keep it apples to apples when you attempt to refute a statement.
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A fist of flesh does the same damage as a fist of steel. Except it doesn't, the cyber limb does physical damage, not stun. Also knucks cause more damage because physics. Smaller contact points. Higher force on point of impact. Buy knucks, put them on cyber limb. Better yet, build them in for 15 bucks or something. It would not take capacity to add knuckle studs.
A fist of flesh can actually do Str+3 DV Physical (if that flesh is modified with Bone Density Bioware)
Knucks cause less damage than both cyberware and bioware bone augmentations. So much for physics and your smaller contact points. ;)
I still think it's strange that a pair of brass knuckles do more physical damage than a metal cyberlimb, and yet less than a modified bone structure. But to each their own.
It's easy enough to houserule. I've done it in the past but I prefer not to use house rules as much as possible. *shrug*
I said they do more damage because of physics. A fist augmented with fantasy bone modifications that would have no real life effects will obviously do more damage that something based on physics in a game. Furthermore, an augmented fist isn't exactly a fist of flesh. My intent invalidates your arguement. You compared something entirely seperate than I did. Try to keep it apples to apples when you attempt to refute a statement.
You're cute. What was your "intent"?
You say Brass Knuckles should do more damage than a cyberlimb "because of physics".
I point to augmentations in the game that simply strengthen your bones (even still keeping them "fleshy") and allow you to do a lot more damage than those same Brass Knuckles according to the actual game mechanics..
Where is your real world physics now? How does that translate to the game of Shadowrun? You know, the fantasy sci-fi cyberpunk roleplaying game we are talking about, and not real life.
Oh wait, you just essentially told me that "fantasy bone augmentations" do more damage, obviously. Yeah, ok.
So you quote physics to me, then handwave those same physics away right after.
If you are going to get all smart ass on me at least have the decency to be consistent.
Don't go "physics, natch!".... then change to "fantasy, nyaaa!"
Especially don't propose both arguments in the same post. My god.
Well, I can play at that game too. I think a full replacement cyberlimb with futuristic durable metal alloys and myomers would do more damage with a punch than plastic laced bones or brass knuckles.
Because Physics. And Fantasy. :P
Unless you have something to say that's actually constructive, see ya elsewhere in the grid chummer.
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(havn't read all the other posts so I may cover the same ground, if I do, sorry)
The big issue is that we don't fully know how a cyber limb is made, how it's internal components are assembled, or where the load bearing stress factors are.
For example: is the outer shell of the cyberarm (reguardless of 'skin') the load stress factor? Or is there an internal component similar to natural bones that bares the stress? (this is important!)
If it is the outside shells that is the load stress, then the internal parts of the cyber limb is all wires, servos, motors, pumps and hydrolics. When you go to punch someone with this cyberarm, part of the kenetic force of the punch is directed into a small area of the shell (and possibly denting it... Like a ball thrown at the side panel of your car) the rest is transferred to the internal workings of the arm and absorbed. (look at your hand, make a fist... Where your knuckles are, would be small moving servos... And they COULD be broken by the impact;) another issue is that it is possible that the arm won't allow you to hit 'as hard' as it is capable to stop damage to the arm.
If there is an internal stress load for the arm, then chances are the outer shell (regardless of 'skin') is there for safety and cosmetic purposes and thus made up of kinetic absorbing materials to prevent denting and other unsightly damage through everyday contact. IF this is the case, then that outer shell is working directly against your punch by absorbing some of the impact into itself by design!
Lastly, make a fist again and look at it. A good thrown punch will hit with the knuckles of the index and middle finger first as these are the only 2 fingers/knuckles with ridged structure (your last 2 fingers/bottom part of hand have many small bones and cartaledge... Good shock absorption to a point) next look at the skin over your first two knuckles... It's not very thick is it? (unless you are obese). This means there is very little padding in the way of the bones so there is little abdorbtion by your skin from your punch...
Now add in your bone density or lacing, making those bones supper dense (and limiting the bones natural shock abdorbtion) or armoring them. Both will allow you to exert way more force than an unaugmented (and possibly a cyber limb) would be able to do and not suffer injury.
Sadly however, until we understand how the limb is made, we can't really answer your question, and have to trust that the Devs took the cyber limb construction into account when they determined the damage code.