Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: welldressedgent on <07-16-15/1523:45>
-
No pun intended, but why? They're detectable. They're common. You'd think every rent a cop would know by now search the thumb for a monowhip and the wrist for a cyberspur.
-wdg
-
They do, doesn't make them any less useful on the streets.
-
Are they?
And, are they?
How many people in the world have a cyber-limb? How many of those would put a weapon in one?
Don't confuse a shadowrunner's SOP for that of everyone. The vast majority of police call outs are for the same crap as today, 98% are people acting badly, and 2% are violence related.
Of that 2% I doubt that cyber weaponry makes up a large percentage.
As for why?
It's a concealed weapon that is not easily found, nor easily disarmed, meaning you have a better chance of getting it past security then a light pistol (or the assault rifles many builds like).
-
No pun intended, but why? They're detectable. They're common. You'd think every rent a cop would know by now search the thumb for a monowhip and the wrist for a cyberspur.
How do you detect them even if they are present? Search every finger of every person that comes into a building? Not likely and not really feasible. You run them thru a (MAD) scanner and then the SR rules apply for detection.
-
-10 Concealability for Smuggling compartments and Fingertips. I don't recall the number for Cyberweapons but I presume it's similar. Basically, you're not going to find it. Maybe a full body strip search gets you an outside chance.
So either a MAD or a Cyberscanner. A monowhip should coast on past an MAD, as well as a few other specific weapons. Remember kids, insist on Titanium claws! : ) Even then a weapon implanted inside a cyberlimb should be nearly MAD proof as "Yes, officer, my arm is metal." Unless the MAD gets a pile of hits and is sensitive enough to detect specific metal outlines *inside* a metal container.
Cyberscanners are really the only thing that is likely to spot an implanted weapon, and they need enough hits to detect the Cyberware and in some cases more to I.D. the sub-systems. "Again, yes, my Arm is Cybernetic, thank you officer, is there anything else?"
Chemsniffers can spot the ammo, but if the ammo is sealed in, it's unlikely, but its about the best chance.
RAW a Deltaware Fingertip compartment is going to get you and your monowhip pretty much anywhere. Ditto a Deltaware limb and a Smuggling compartment/implanted weapon. Best scanner is rating 8 with 3 extra dice from modifiers so 11 dice. Any Delta ware needs 5 hits just to spot, and potentially a sixth to get info on the sub systems. Very unlikely. For around 50k you can have a Monowhip and SMG pretty much anywhere. Delta Fingertip Monowhip, Delta Lower Leg and Smuggling compartment, throw in a MAD proof H&K Combat SMG. 'gratz! You're about as lethal as the Adept or Mage that don't need silly guns or knives.
-
Ohhh man... Deltaware Arm with a cyber-modified Streetline Special.. yaknow, that holdout designed to get past MAD scanners?
Sure they don't do much, but load them EX-Explosive, ADPS or some inventive Capsule rounds and they can sill be pretty dangerous in a situation no one is expecting someone to have a gun.
-
Yes but standard grade implant weapons are still detectable which brings me to the question: How COMMON are cyberscanners and mad
-
Yes but standard grade implant weapons are still detectable which brings me to the question: How COMMON are cyberscanners and mad
As common as the GM needs them to be.
-
I talked about this topic a while ago on these forums and someone told me that I was doing it wrong if not every school had at least MAD scanners, every stuffer shack, every everything outside of the barrens of whatever metroplex you are in has like at least mad scanners. Is that a good interpretation or is that a bit too much what I got told back then
-
Given the prevalence of 'ware and weapons I'd have to agree.
-
Which would put us back to avarage implanted weapons, especially at the beginning of a campaign, being terrible
-
Depends on the area, too.
For example, the Barrens? Law enforcement almost never goes there and, when they do, it's in big loud screaming trucks with dozens of guys. The rest of the time, you fend for yourself, and having a pop-out set of deathblades in your arm's only a positive. Bop around teh scuzzier sections of teh normal city, keep 'em hidden unless you *need* 'em, and you'll be fine.
Once you move up to middle class areas or downtown, you'll start running into places where being teh baddest man on the street will stop you from going in, and teh fancy places,like private schools, will have scanners set up. The litle mom-n-pop run by a Dwarven couple wants you to buy or get out "This isn't a library, punk!" but they're not going to shell out for a scanner, so you can always go get you a little fruity soyda when you're down.
-
I talked about this topic a while ago on these forums and someone told me that I was doing it wrong if not every school had at least MAD scanners, every stuffer shack, every everything outside of the barrens of whatever metroplex you are in has like at least mad scanners. Is that a good interpretation or is that a bit too much what I got told back then
Definitely seems like a bit much. If you have a little shop with a MAD scanner, every time it goes off, which could be very often, you would have to check their licenses to see if what they have is legal and/or you need to get people to check all weaponry at the door since many people would carry weapons legally, and then you would STILL have a problem with anyone that had a cyberlimb (which is completely legal). Way too much hassle for the average shop.
-
A lot of it is going to come down to game style.. a Pink Mohawk game isn't going to bother much about this unless it's for the added challenge of the crew being limited to what they can smuggle in.
For a deep shadows mirrored shades game on the other hand, yeah, you can probably expect that sort of thing being a lot more prevalent.
There really isn't a be-all-to-end-all answer to this kind of thing.
-
Ohhh man... Deltaware Arm with a cyber-modified Streetline Special.. yaknow, that holdout designed to get past MAD scanners?
Sure they don't do much, but load them EX-Explosive, ADPS or some inventive Capsule rounds and they can sill be pretty dangerous in a situation no one is expecting someone to have a gun.
HK Urban Combat SMG immune to MAD (Run and Gun p. 36) and a Large Smuggling compartment, conveniently will fit in a partial leg. Or just build the SMG into an Arm with the new Cyberweapon rules from Chrome Flesh. Carry a Monowhip and SMG, just about anywhere, for around 50k, 3 or 4 runs in, give or take. The Deltaware is easy, the SMG is actually the toughest to get.
The Ammo is more likely to give you away to chem sniffers than the cyber or gun.
-
Page 458
For extra concealment, cyberguns are built from
mostly non-metallic compounds, and any metallic
parts are incorporated into the (cyber) arm’s structure.
All cyberguns have internal magazines (m) and can be
equipped with a hidden external ammo port. However,
once you attach a clip to the side of your forearm or
the back of your elbow, the cybergun becomes kind of
obvious. Laser sights and silencers/sound suppressors
are also available; other weapon accessories can’t be
installed in cyberguns. All cyberguns are pre-equipped
with smartgun systems
You get spotted on cyberware scanner not on a MAD but might pick up regular ammo and a olifactory scanner would pick up the chemicals in regular ammo maybe not so much capsule rounds/gel rounds not much of a stretch you can have clips made out of plastic or some other kevelar/non metalic material never understood the ammo port could you have internal mag while hidden mode but when you need to reload have the ammo port pop out and load in the clip dont see much of a point of a laser gun when you have a smart gun for 2k you can get upgrade range finder laser and ignore a range penalty
-
Rooks.
An olfactory scanner picks up the propellant of the round.
Don't matter what round it is, (APDS, GEL, EX, FL) it still uses a chemicial propellant. The only way you are getting around that is a railgun, which you are not fitting in an arm.
-
Rooks.
An olfactory scanner picks up the propellant of the round.
Don't matter what round it is, (APDS, GEL, EX, FL) it still uses a chemicial propellant. The only way you are getting around that is a railgun, which you are not fitting in an arm.
*couch*dartpistol*cough*
-
The only way you are getting around that is a railgun, which you are not fitting in an arm.
Someday (http://legacy.shadowlordinc.com/media/G/Nick_Arm_into_Railgun.htm) though, someday.....
-
Ohhh man... Deltaware Arm with a cyber-modified Streetline Special.. yaknow, that holdout designed to get past MAD scanners?
Sure they don't do much, but load them EX-Explosive, ADPS or some inventive Capsule rounds and they can sill be pretty dangerous in a situation no one is expecting someone to have a gun.
HK Urban Combat SMG immune to MAD (Run and Gun p. 36) and a Large Smuggling compartment, conveniently will fit in a partial leg. Or just build the SMG into an Arm with the new Cyberweapon rules from Chrome Flesh. Carry a Monowhip and SMG, just about anywhere, for around 50k, 3 or 4 runs in, give or take. The Deltaware is easy, the SMG is actually the toughest to get.
The Ammo is more likely to give you away to chem sniffers than the cyber or gun.
Finding the Deltaware Clinic is actually be the hardest part... have no idea why they dropped the Advanced Medical Rules from 4th edition. But there are only 3 Clinics in Seattle that can even handle Betaware... 2 legit clinics & 1 Shadowrunner clinic. They also dropped the surgery costs as well as the Availability/definition of what each kind of medical facility can do. Though they retained some of it in the Fluff, like it takes a Betaware clinic to do Nanoware. All Deltaware Clinics are run by AAA & AA Corps... if your GM just gives you free access, Congrats! But that is not supported by the Lore in any way... just getting access to a Deltaware Clinic should be a big deal & you'd still need to pay for what you get.
-
Rooks.
An olfactory scanner picks up the propellant of the round.
Don't matter what round it is, (APDS, GEL, EX, FL) it still uses a chemicial propellant. The only way you are getting around that is a railgun, which you are not fitting in an arm.
airsoft guns included?
-
HK Urban Combat SMG immune to MAD (Run and Gun p. 36) and a Large Smuggling compartment, conveniently will fit in a partial leg. Or just build the SMG into an Arm with the new Cyberweapon rules from Chrome Flesh.
What's the point of having a MAD invisible weapon inside a cyberarm or smuggling compartment that will register as metal?
-
In previous editions the HK Urban Combat had also the feature of sealed ammunition so olfactory scanners couldn't pick up the ammo before you broke the seal on the magazine.
-
The only way you are getting around that is a railgun, which you are not fitting in an arm.
Someday (http://legacy.shadowlordinc.com/media/G/Nick_Arm_into_Railgun.htm) though, someday.....
Doesn't look like a railgun
-
You are just used to seeing the twin guide method.
Other rail system used rings around the projectile 'barrel' to provide the momentum.
Though I do agree there should be a lot more rings along the barrel in the pic, but artistic license I guess. :o
-
In previous editions the HK Urban Combat had also the feature of sealed ammunition so olfactory scanners couldn't pick up the ammo before you broke the seal on the magazine.
What he said. Same goes for the sadly absent HK Urban Fighter.
Also from previous edition, Morrissey Elan: 1 bullet less and can't use flechettes, but trades that -2 for COMPLETE UNDETECTABILITY! And if you're playing previous edition, it has better rate of fire.
Other beneficiaries of MAD stealth are SA Puzzler and it's bigger brother, WW Infiltrator, though only the former appears in 5E.
Finally, 4E has rules for modifying ANY gun with (rather expensieve and HIGHLY illegal) ceramic/plasteel components. Level 1 gives -2 for detection, level 2 provides -4 and level 3 - complete undetectability.
And don't forget - ammo might show up of MAD. That's why 4E had similiarly undetectable (at the cost of lower damage and greater recoil) Hi-C Plastic rounds, for when you didn't feel like using capsules or gel.
HK Urban series weapons are the only ones benefiting from sealed magazines though. Unless of course you have appropriate skills and a bit of time.
P.S. 4E Runner's Companion p.35 has quite a few toys for bypassing such pesky things as MAD scanners, including MDS Subdermal Sheath, which helps conceal smuggling compartments (or other components that you would like to hide, like say, retractable spur).
-
HK Urban Combat SMG immune to MAD (Run and Gun p. 36) and a Large Smuggling compartment, conveniently will fit in a partial leg. Or just build the SMG into an Arm with the new Cyberweapon rules from Chrome Flesh.
What's the point of having a MAD invisible weapon inside a cyberarm or smuggling compartment that will register as metal?
Cyberlimb is legal. MADs aren't image scanners, they're fairly simple. If there is metal they go *ping*. The Cyberware scanners are more refined image scanners and the rules specifically call out how the Cyberware scanners spot the sub-systems (more hits). The MAD scanners just detect metal, in real life, and in game description. So unless the sub-systems get spotted by the Cyber scanner, or the by a regular search test ( at -10 concealability) the legal, metal cyberlimb is fine.
Kinda like drug mules, or similar.
-
Cyberlimb is legal. MADs aren't image scanners, they're fairly simple. If there is metal they go *ping*.
For an illegal, metal weapon inside a metal cyberlimb, they go ... ? ::)
After pinging a MAD scanner, if you're subjected to a physical or visual search (ie; being patted down, or showing your cyber limb), then the non-metal materials don't matter. If they put you through a cyberware scanner, then the non-metal materials don't matter.
-
HK Urban Combat SMG immune to MAD (Run and Gun p. 36) and a Large Smuggling compartment, conveniently will fit in a partial leg. Or just build the SMG into an Arm with the new Cyberweapon rules from Chrome Flesh.
What's the point of having a MAD invisible weapon inside a cyberarm or smuggling compartment that will register as metal?
Page 458
For extra concealment, cyberguns are built from
mostly non-metallic compounds, and any metallic
parts are incorporated into the (cyber) arm’s structure.
All cyberguns have internal magazines (m) and can be
equipped with a hidden external ammo port. However,
once you attach a clip to the side of your forearm or
the back of your elbow, the cybergun becomes kind of
obvious. Laser sights and silencers/sound suppressors
are also available; other weapon accessories can’t be
installed in cyberguns. All cyberguns are pre-equipped
with smartgun systems
So it seems you have a cyberarm "yes" its a cyberweapon get him! kinda like the failed fake sin paradox if only time the system asks for further information is when the sin id scanner ties with a fake sin id then by the very fact of the system asking for more information the sin is a fake
-
No, if a SIN scanner is asking for more info, it couldn't verify the SIN, that is not the same as a "rejected" response. A rejected response your SIN is blown. More info means litterally more info is required....
-
No, if a SIN scanner is asking for more info, it couldn't verify the SIN, that is not the same as a "rejected" response. A rejected response your SIN is blown. More info means litterally more info is required....
I was using it as an example cause if a shadowrunner is a SINer going through a security check point the asking for more information isnt going to matter mechanics wise cause thats the persons legal SIN
-
Wait, does that mean that you bring your LEGAL SIN to the run?
-
Cyberlimb is legal. MADs aren't image scanners, they're fairly simple. If there is metal they go *ping*.
For an illegal, metal weapon inside a metal cyberlimb, they go ... ? ::)
After pinging a MAD scanner, if you're subjected to a physical or visual search (ie; being patted down, or showing your cyber limb), then the non-metal materials don't matter. If they put you through a cyberware scanner, then the non-metal materials don't matter.
Ping, or a quiet beep, or an AR pop-up. Whatever. You're not going to have sirens going off every time someone with a Data Jack, or forgets to take off a belt and walks through a check point. TSA doesn't scramble a SWAT team each time something pings at an airport, it's an incredibly dull, routine activity. Handled quietly (most of the time), and they are literally running down an internal check list. "Did you completely empty your pockets?" "Are you wearing a belt?" blah, blah, blah.
And yes, possibly your cyberlimb will be subject to a pat down. *shrug* If they're able to spot a -10 concealment with a perception test, you were likely screwed anyway. But you should have a considerable dice pool advantage on this check.
-
Ya I suspect going into a satellite corp run office is going to be easier than going through the TSA even border crossing they dont ask you to step out of the car and walk through a MAD or Cyberware scanner
-
Cyberlimb is legal. MADs aren't image scanners, they're fairly simple. If there is metal they go *ping*.
For an illegal, metal weapon inside a metal cyberlimb, they go ... ? ::)
After pinging a MAD scanner, if you're subjected to a physical or visual search (ie; being patted down, or showing your cyber limb), then the non-metal materials don't matter. If they put you through a cyberware scanner, then the non-metal materials don't matter.
Ping, or a quiet beep, or an AR pop-up. Whatever. You're not going to have sirens going off every time someone with a Data Jack, or forgets to take off a belt and walks through a check point. TSA doesn't scramble a SWAT team each time something pings at an airport, it's an incredibly dull, routine activity. Handled quietly (most of the time), and they are literally running down an internal check list. "Did you completely empty your pockets?" "Are you wearing a belt?" blah, blah, blah.
And yes, possibly your cyberlimb will be subject to a pat down. *shrug* If they're able to spot a -10 concealment with a perception test, you were likely screwed anyway. But you should have a considerable dice pool advantage on this check.
MAD scanner? The cyberlimb metal registers. 0:1
Physical or visual check? The cybergun is internal. 0:2
Cyberware scanning? Completely ignores the lack of metal. 0:3
If a MAD scan positive result leads to a pat down, then you take an urban combat or an internal weapon. When do you want an internal urban combat? Seems like never. That can't be right, can it?
-
Because its cool. Duh.
But I can see your point, the anit-MAD properties of weapons concealed in a Cyberlimb are mostly a marketing hook.
-
Except you can just declare that you have a cyberhand so when it shows up on the cyberscanner they arent all wtf is dis? same with cyberware scanner I suspect middle to low lifesyle wage slaves still have cyber replacements