Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Elseabea on <09-05-10/1048:38>
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As I am trying to figure this before I run a game....
The main rules state that computer actions use (Program + Skill) to resolve. The skill rules do tie the computer skills to a stat (Logic, I believe), on the other hand.
1) Do computer actions use stats as well? Or not?
1a) If not, then why does a hacker need a high Logic? Stats are useless then.
I am trying to figure this out so little help goes a long way.
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Yes - Programs replace Attributes in the Matrix, a hacker doesn't need high LOG for the hacking actions but he needs it if he wants to programming something like a patch...
All a hacker need is skill and money for his equipment and programs. ;)
The Alternative is to tweak the rules, but this brings other difficulties...
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1a) If not, then why does a hacker need a high Logic? Stats are useless then.
The hacker is usually expected to do a lot of other technical, non-Matrix actions, like hacking the hardware or programming, which do require Logic. On the other hand, you can have a Matrix specialist who can also keep up with the rest of the team when it comes to meatspace running.
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Ya know I just had a thought......(OW!)
As Aaron just said have a matrix person who more or less just hacks logic then becomes no big deal.
SO.....
why not take this a step further no one in the group builds a hacker.
Instead have your players split up the different skills of Computer, Data Search, Hardware, Software, Hacking, Electronic Warfare, Cybercombat.
I would say one takes Hacking & Cybercombat.
One takes Computer& Data Search.
One takes Hardware, Software & Electronic Warfare.
If you have more people I guess you could break it down more but I think with this you can do what needs to be done. Upside is you don't need someone playing the full time hacker which might lead to that person being able to do more for the team at times.
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For some of the rich kids out there, buying the wizzer programs and hardware is all you need to Hack into the system. But if you trust only your nuyen when it comes to your skills, then you get what you pay for. But if you're like me, and only trust that which you built yourself, then all the nuyen in the world won't help you, omae. For that, you need to know how comms are built, how software is written and be able to do for yourself.
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Or if you haven't built it yourself, at least be able to parse through the code of that shiny new rating 7 Exploit program you bought and see what it really does. "Hrm, writes a backdoor into every system that runs it, you say?"
While you technically "can" build a hacker that doesn't have the proper attributes for the job, you're handing a lot of potential to be messed with to your GM^^
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"Wow, this new MCT Analyze program is top drek!"
- last words of this newb decker I knew back in '62.
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Ya know I just had a thought......(OW!)
As Aaron just said have a matrix person who more or less just hacks logic then becomes no big deal.
SO.....
why not take this a step further no one in the group builds a hacker.
Instead have your players split up the different skills of Computer, Data Search, Hardware, Software, Hacking, Electronic Warfare, Cybercombat.
I would say one takes Hacking & Cybercombat.
One takes Computer& Data Search.
One takes Hardware, Software & Electronic Warfare.
If you have more people I guess you could break it down more but I think with this you can do what needs to be done. Upside is you don't need someone playing the full time hacker which might lead to that person being able to do more for the team at times.
Yes, I just broke into the system. What I can't understand anything, this must be encrypted. Bob bought that package, I get him to decrypt the node. Oh wait, the contact said this system was loaded with ICE, so when Bob can understand everything he won't be able to defend himself and he will flatline.
This could happen if you try to spread out the software too much. Its not a bad idea, but not one I see working out for the long run. Replicating matrix skills across the team v. with one runner isn't the best idea IMNSHO.
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yes splitting essential job defining skills up amongst the team members sounds like a great idea. hmmm covert ops: one to sneak quietly. one to climb the rope, and one to fire the gun ..........yup works perfectly. As a Gm I recommend this method to all my players. Muahahahahahaha
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Hey it's a thought an nothing says you need to break it up the way I listed.
Have 2 players play twins who are so tight you'd swear they were attached together one could do the all matrix stuff one for the rest.
Hacking as it is written is just hacking skill and a program no call or need for software, hardware skills and maybe no need for computer or data search skills as well.
That means #1 gets Hacking, Cybercombet, & Electronic Warfare.
#2 gets the rest software, hardware, computer, & data search.
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Hey it's a thought an nothing says you need to break it up the way I listed.
Have 2 players play twins who are so tight you'd swear they were attached together one could do the all matrix stuff one for the rest.
Hacking as it is written is just hacking skill and a program no call or need for software, hardware skills and maybe no need for computer or data search skills as well.
That means #1 gets Hacking, Cybercombet, & Electronic Warfare.
#2 gets the rest software, hardware, computer, & data search.
Kinda like The Prestige...
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I'm really liking technomancers for the hacking versatility. Regular hackers need to get every scrap of hardware and software they can, but the techno can fake it on the fly or whistle up a sprite to do it for him. They are much better for newbie players who wish to deal with hacking.
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Or just spend 9 BP for the Restricted gear quality and R6 Unrestricted Mook.
My advice for a new GM looking to understand the hacking rules is *don't*
Focus on developing the setting and the feel of life and death on the streets first.
Later, find out if your players are interested in hacking before you dig too deep into it.
Find a player who is willing to try and understand everything 'Trix-side and then, after they've tried, ask them if they're still keen on it.
Then go over the rules together.
A shared understanding is the best point from which a GM can start anything in game.
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Not that new of GM and I've run Shadowrun before. Grant you that 2nd Edition.....
More just a wondering thing as, in theory, being smarter (ie, having a higher Logic) should make you a better hacker. But it does nothing for you what so ever in term of the archtype's primary speciality.
I'm thinking I'm going to run the Matrix stuff as (Logic)+(Program)+(Skill) and see what happens. If the player (if there is one) is too powerful I can fix them in a couple of obvious ways:
1) The system is going to alert the first chance it gets.
2) Agents would use (rating + program + agent skill). Not sure if an agent's skill is the same as it's rating - need to check.
3) Spiders (security hackers) use the same rules. And some of them are better than the players.
Of course there is the option of just making things harder.
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the alt rules say (I think) Logic + Skill max hits limited to you program rateing.
you can ues that if your wanting them to stay inline with other toons useing skill + attribute.
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There is one thing I've been tossing around as a house rule, but have not yet implemented, that applies directly to this thread...
Use the rating of the programs as a limiter on the max hits you can get for a hacking roll. Much as the force of a spell limits the hits achievable on a magic + Spell casting roll.
Of course this would necessitate coming up with all new rolls (which attribute + skill) for each matrix action.
Alternatively, you could try making your intuition and/or logic be the limiting factor, and keep all the rolls intact in the RAW.
I haven't really ironed out the kinks yet, but it's an idea if you don't want hackers running around with low attributes. Since technically, as written, it's entirely possible and there's not much of a drawback for doing in built into the system. But as other above me in the thread have mentioned, it's up to the GM to make having those stats worth while ala writing your own code and making you own comms.
Hope this helps in some way.
Cheers
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Of course there is the option of just making things harder.
Well, hacking thresholds are already pretty high, some of the highest in the game really, so a few more dice aren't going to shatter worlds.
One thing I've done in the past is to make it Logic or Program with the non-dominant skill taking a Teamwork position. Teamwork in this case meaning, you roll the dice for that attribute and add hits to the Dice Pool of the test. That makes it an average 1/3rd bonus from the lesser stat.
So, the Skiddie lets the Program run on alt preset standard and might be able to help adjust it with his meager Logic.
Meanwhile the ghetto-savant works his garbage-ass Program his way, using his sublime Logic. Sometimes the program surprisingly does what it was supposed to do without his urging, but mostly, he is throwing the code where it needs to be.
And, finally, the supreme virtuoso whips his homebrewed supertools into a stunning display of cyber-supremacy, with the perfect machinations of the Program taking the forefront, but being continuously guided and conducted by the virtuoso's god-like mental faculties.
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Of course there is the option of just making things harder.
Well, hacking thresholds are already pretty high, some of the highest in the game really, so a few more dice aren't going to shatter worlds.
One thing I've done in the past is to make it Logic or Program with the non-dominant skill taking a Teamwork position. Teamwork in this case meaning, you roll the dice for that attribute and add hits to the Dice Pool of the test. That makes it an average 1/3rd bonus from the lesser stat.
So, the Skiddie lets the Program run on alt preset standard and might be able to help adjust it with his meager Logic.
Meanwhile the ghetto-savant works his garbage-ass Program his way, using his sublime Logic. Sometimes the program surprisingly does what it was supposed to do without his urging, but mostly, he is throwing the code where it needs to be.
And, finally, the supreme virtuoso whips his homebrewed supertools into a stunning display of cyber-supremacy, with the perfect machinations of the Program taking the forefront, but being continuously guided and conducted by the virtuoso's god-like mental faculties.
That's not a bad idea - do you adjust the thresholds to make the high logic + high program guy the standard, or do you have it just much easier than written?
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I adjust the thresholds a little, but I like Hacking on the Fly to be more than a desperate death sentence. :)
The reason I like doing a one or the other plus one third thing is that it doesn't generally get out of control, and, unlike using logic and capping hits to program rating, it doesn't make Technomancers useless. It really helps non-TMs stay in the cybergame.
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Yeah, to clarify, I was wondering how it worked out to make things a little easier for the true specialist. Hacking tends to be hard enough, it would be interesting to see some rules to let it run a little faster/safer.
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If you actually use the optional rules from Unwired, you can limit hits on Hacking rolls by Logic. Not net hits but total hits.
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If you actually use the optional rules from Unwired, you can limit hits on Hacking rolls by Logic. Not net hits but total hits.
Right, which turns out to be fairly brutal against anyone who doesn't have a sky-high Log score, and particularly against TMs.
I like the teamwork interaction between the two much better.
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There is one thing I've been tossing around as a house rule, but have not yet implemented, that applies directly to this thread...
Use the rating of the programs as a limiter on the max hits you can get for a hacking roll. Much as the force of a spell limits the hits achievable on a magic + Spell casting roll.
That would be the optional rules as writen in unwired. I think
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There is one thing I've been tossing around as a house rule, but have not yet implemented, that applies directly to this thread...
Use the rating of the programs as a limiter on the max hits you can get for a hacking roll. Much as the force of a spell limits the hits achievable on a magic + Spell casting roll.
That would be the optional rules as writen in unwired. I think
The prophecy says, you are correct sir.
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If you actually use the optional rules from Unwired, you can limit hits on Hacking rolls by Logic. Not net hits but total hits.
Right, which turns out to be fairly brutal against anyone who doesn't have a sky-high Log score, and particularly against TMs.
I like the teamwork interaction between the two much better.
Which I believe is another optional rule from Unwired as well. Or at least a rule discussed on DumpShock.
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Yeah I read so many rules I do sometimes have to think really hard where it was said book or website.
Gotta watch some of those houserules on Dumpshock they totaly go outside the rules as written or even as meant to be used.
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Yeah I read so many rules I do sometimes have to think really hard where it was said book or website.
Gotta watch some of those houserules on Dumpshock they totaly go outside the rules as written or even as meant to be used.
/shrug - my care for the intent of the writers extends only so far as my table enjoys it. The second a rule, either written or intended, impinges on that - out it goes^^
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And thus the quote in the book that goes something like this:
these rules are just a suggestion feel free to make changes.
or something like that
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I will say that I've been in a game where it was houseruled that you just assume you have max in all programs and that they're all running, so you just run logic + hacking to do anything.
Very trivial, very boring.
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I will say that I've been in a game where it was houseruled that you just assume you have max in all programs and that they're all running, so you just run logic + hacking to do anything.
Very trivial, very boring.
Sounds it. I can kinda understand the knowing the program at all levels, making it more like the spell system, but there's no "drain" involved, so of course you'd max it out.
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Or just spend 9 BP for the Restricted gear quality and R6 Unrestricted Mook.
And then discover that it's another 8 BP for another restricted gear quality and the R6 response upgrade, plus the R6 system.
The R6 Unrestricted Mook can't run on any of the stock commlinks.
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Two reasons to have all the hacking done by a single person:
1) Encephalon. (Ask your GM if rating two gives a total of +2 or +3 to cracking. It's badly worded.)
2) Enhanced Protein Exchange: PuSHeD. (another +1)
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A comlink with Response and System of 6 is its own reward. :)
How else are you going to run your Rating 12 Optomization 6 self-written programs? ;D
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Looks like I need to read Unwired again... isn't rating 6 kind of a natural barrier?
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Yes and no ..........It is unless you wish to take at the leaset I think is 6 months the max can be years to make the next nova hot program.
That out of game downtime you need to be able to focus on the task.
You can do it with a agent but that will add time.