[Rymdkejsaren]

Thanks for the (on topic) replies. I have a better idea of why guns are brickable now, and of how I'm going to treat it in my game.

If you want to discuss the use of hacking in combat, do please take it to another topic, thank you.

[Xenon]

Just wanted to add that all weapons, not just smartguns, fire caseless ammo and they are also filled with electronics and are wireless enabled by default.

They all display ammo levels and which ammo type you loaded directly to your brain. You can eject the clip with a mental thought (as a free action) rather than touching a physical button (as a simple action). You can also change between firing modes with a mental thought (as a free action) rather than touching the firing mode switch (as a simple action).

Also, if you have a bit of time to set up the attack you should probably look into the new Garbage In/Garbage Out Sleaze Action described in DT p. 178 (a good example given was to rewire  the firearm so that when the trigger is pulled either mechanically or via DNI the firearm will eject the magazine rather than firing a bullet).

[Hobbes]

The GM that gives a group of Runners 10 seconds of prep before a gunfight only does so once.

Flashbang and Chaotic World go off, immediately followed by a thermo-smoke grenade.  Invisible Flying Samurai running Ultrasound kills any NPCs that fail the surprise check with split attacks.  Npcs react by pulling guns that immediately eject clips when they pull the trigger.  PCs second actions take down the remaining NPCs.  Done, fight over in two actions.

On the other hand, it is one way to speed up Shadowrun Combat.  Just let the players win before initiative is rolled.   

[Beta]

The GM that gives a group of Runners 10 seconds of prep before a gunfight only does so once.

Flashbang and Chaotic World go off, immediately followed by a thermo-smoke grenade.  Invisible Flying Samurai running Ultrasound kills any NPCs that fail the surprise check with split attacks.  Npcs react by pulling guns that immediately eject clips when they pull the trigger.  PCs second actions take down the remaining NPCs.  Done, fight over in two actions.

On the other hand, it is one way to speed up Shadowrun Combat.  Just let the players win before initiative is rolled.   

Which is how 'runners are supposed to be doing things, when they get to play to their strengths

[Reaver]

The GM that gives a group of Runners 10 seconds of prep before a gunfight only does so once.

Flashbang and Chaotic World go off, immediately followed by a thermo-smoke grenade.  Invisible Flying Samurai running Ultrasound kills any NPCs that fail the surprise check with split attacks.  Npcs react by pulling guns that immediately eject clips when they pull the trigger.  PCs second actions take down the remaining NPCs.  Done, fight over in two actions.

On the other hand, it is one way to speed up Shadowrun Combat.  Just let the players win before initiative is rolled.   

Which is how 'runners are supposed to be doing things, when they get to play to their strengths

Agreed.

If my team actually gets to plan the combat, it's over after the 1/3 of the first pass. The other 2.75 seconds are for selfies with the Surprised, Suddenly Dead.  

[Marcus]

You gotta give'em a nice surprise round like that every now and then, simply so you can lull them into complacency for the real combats.

[SpellBinder]

Just wait until Murphy shows up.  Two or three of his laws take precedence here, one of which is (or should be) known by practically everyone.

And remember kids, what the players can do, so too can the bad guys.

[Rymdkejsaren]

So, after reading further in the equipment chapter, I'm less convinced again. Clearly, not all guns come smartgun ready, nor do they use electric firing systems (the ones that do specifically mention it). So I'm back to square one; it doesn't make sense that guns in general are brickable.

I'm struggling with how to deal with this, because either I'll have to go with my original plan (you can't brick guns that rely on mechanical workings to fire bullets), or I'll have to modify the equipment lists. I thought the smartgun system was something integrated into the gun, but as it turns out it's something you can mount externally. Frying that would have no effect on its capacity to fire bullets.

Does this not bother anyone else? Isn't it something your players ask? Because it makes no sense.

Please only post if you have something to say about the original topic, thank you.

[Streetsam_Crunch]

Hoi, Rymdkejsaren!

You're not alone in that line of thought, and have made that distinction myself. Funny enough, I never even thought to ask the question, and just rolled with the idea that if guns aren't modified for smartlink and/or or have electronic parts. That's just seemed common sense to me.

This is not to say guns don't have a matrix presence in general though. You can 'tag' standard weapons (since everything is apparently 'tagged' in some way for commercial or legal purposes- like that you have a gun, and *click* here's the license for you to carry it). Now *that* I have generally presumed unless players take steps to remove or alter those tags (which can be done easily and cheaply with a common tag-eraser).  It's also fairly safe to assume that black market purchased guns have either had their tags erased or altered in some way as well.

For example- Street punks and gutterscum are not likely to have smartlinks, and likely have the tags erased on their guns, which can make them dangerous due to their unpredictability in what they may be packing. Also, while yes, it's likely corporate security types will have smartlink systems they'll also, as others have suggested, be more savvy about their weapons getting hacked.

Conversely, I've personally considered a build for a streetsam that's loaded up all their weapons and cyberware with IC Agent programs that will attack intruders and alert the 'sam that someone's attempting to hack them. Why trust the Decker in your group alone to cover your 'ware, when you can give them friends to help watch over you, right?

Crunch~

[Michael Chandra]

If your gun is in the matrix, it can be bricked. If it is offline, it cannot. If you don't want to be hackable, use a wire and skip the wireless bonuses.

[Marcus]

If the gun works with the smartlink implant, ie (increased accuracy by 2, give +2 dice to attack with the gun, able to fire from mental commands, able to eject clips as mental command, see around corners, etc) the weapon must be electronically controlled. If you choose to mount the processor and required components on top of the gun instead of inside it, you just leave it more vulnerable to breakage. But ether way all internal components still have to have been converted in order system to functions and thus give the bonuses listed above. Systematically it's that simple.

[Rymdkejsaren]

If your gun is in the matrix, it can be bricked. If it is offline, it cannot. If you don't want to be hackable, use a wire and skip the wireless bonuses.

I know the rules, I was looking for an explanation of the rules that made sense. I didn't find one. While I'm willing to suspend my disbelief about a number of things about the Shadowrun universe, something so fundamentally illogical will break believability for me.

You're not alone in that line of thought, and have made that distinction myself. Funny enough, I never even thought to ask the question, and just rolled with the idea that if guns aren't modified for smartlink and/or or have electronic parts. That's just seemed common sense to me.

Yeah, I'd prefer a catch-all solution, but I can't see one that makes sense. I think I'll go with a case-by-case basis too, i.e. if it has a smartlink or an electric firing mechanism, you can brick it.

[Xenon]

Rymdkejsaren, you are overthinking this too much :-)

There was no way for people 50 years ago to even imagine stuff we take for granted (like the internet or a regular smartphone). Even vehicles of 2018 are stuffed with electronics, computers, wireless keys, ability to adjust the speed, keep in the lane and, park themselves and even drive themselves.

Also this game features magic. And dragons.


If it is wireless enabled then it can be bricked.
If it is not wireless enabled then it cannot be bricked.


You are eligible for many of your smartgun features (compensate for wind, fire around corners without exposing yourself and +2 accuracy by tracking ammunition, heat buildup and material stress) even if you disable wireless instead connect it with a wire directly to your smart goggles (or your datajack if you are using an internal smarlink).


You can brick any wireless enabled firearm (even if it isn't an internal smargun or if it is not using an electronic firing mechanism). The official fluff reason why it can't fire after it is bricked is because: "mechanical parts are fused or gummed up with melted internals".


SR5 p. 228 Bricking
If a device is bricked, it stops working: batteries are drained, mechanical parts are fused or gummed up with melted internals, and so on. That said, not all devices are completely useless when bricked. A vibrosword is still sharp, a roto-drone glides to the ground on auto-gyro, a lock stays locked. The firing pin on an assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just fine for stabbing smug hackers. And you can’t exactly brick a katana, ne? And don’t panic when your trickedout combat bike gets bricked; it will ride again … if you know a competent technician.



I would not be too worried about bricking if I were you. It is just a free action to turn wireless off and as many in this and the other thread already showcased it is often far more efficient to just bring up a pistol and shoot some bad guys rather than trying to eject a their clips or trying to brick their guns.


SR5 p. 421 Turning it off
Toggling an individual device’s wireless functionality off is a Free Action, as is toggling all of your wireless devices to “wireless off.” You lose wireless bonuses, but the items can no longer be wirelessly hacked.

[Reaver]

Hey  Rymdkejsaren, I too an some what of a gun nut, with a personal collection of over 80 firearms of all types. So, I know you pain :p

But, surprisingly, some of the tech that is shadowrun has been around for 30+ years in the Real firearms world. And there is some universal changes to weapons you should be aware of.

First off, take almost all of your prior knowledge of guns, and get ready to get rid of it

I can't put my finger on the exact in game date of the change, but electronic firing became the norm sometime around 2058 (that is when most of the guns, and supplements printed in 3e started mentioning electronic firing either in the stats blocks or the fluff write ups). Since then, ALL firearms are electronic firing, which means there is no mechanical hammer that is released with a press of the trigger: Instead a spark is created which ignites the round.

This is possible because all ammo in the 2070s is caseless ammo, meaning there is no brass and no firing cap. All there is a form factor abutment of propellant attached to the end of the bullet.
This also means there is no expended brass to trip over, or get down a shirt collar, or to run ejection mark matching.

None of this really is new tech as Heckler and Koch developed the G11 assault rifle in the 1970s which fired a 4.7mm caseless round through electronic firing (piezoelectric).


Aside from this, there is also the "balance of play" issue. This is the 5th edition of the rules, and the hacking of gear in such ways is new to the last 2 editions. this is implemented because of a huge problem that was found in the older editions of the rules; The decking mini game.

During the first 3 editions of the game, thanks to design elements, deckers really were a "solo" class unto themselves, with little other purpose then to hack doors and steal data. But in just hacking the average door required upwards of 30 minutes with dozens of rolls as the Decker hopped from node to node looking for the right file to hack..... which meant you hoped you played somewhere with a game console while the other 3 - 4 players waited 30 minutes for the decker to open the door.  And, thanks to the way character where built back then, a Decker really couldn't branch out to be effective anywhere other then the matrix.....

So, they looked at ways of increasing Decker usefulness outside of just being a passkey and a xerox machine.
Hacking of gear was a logical step, along with cleaning up the matrix and how its was hacked. (and those that think it is a mess now... how much you have forgotten - Or never knew!)

[Redwulfe]

Though Firearms may not be completely electronic when firing they like the cars of today have many electronic parts and even if they have a mechanical hammer and firing pin who is not to say that this mechanical gun of the future doesn't now use a trigger operated solenoid to release the hammer because the integrated circuit board replaced the release lever and fire selector located there 50 years ago. Paintball guns use solenoid firing mechanisms like this today, maybe this was adapted in the future. This means that even mechanical guns can be bricked by fusing the electronics which even if they didn't use a solenoid firing system would interfere with the hammer connecting to whatever, but hey you now can get readouts of your ammo counts and we can modify that board to integrate a smartgun system, eject magazines for faster loading times, or even switch the fire selector with but a thought.

another reason could come from over heating, you can warp a barrel with heat build up today, maybe this is another way to explain the malfunctioning of the gun when the electronic components heat up too much it could case the release lever to warp, or maybe its just the safety system and fire selector that is electronic and bricking the gun causes the safety to automatically engage as part of a safety procedure that triggers in case of electronic failure or heat build up next to bullets.

Yes solely mechanical firing is easier in the modern world but the combustion engine didn't truly need a computer either and look at where we are. Now we have more options than ever before with our cars and in 2077 you have more options ever with your firearms. Any of the above rationales can explain why a mechanical gun could malfunction when bricked.