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Optional rule inquiry - streamlining armor & soak rolls

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voydangel

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« on: <11-19-10/0001:02> »
Quote from: SR4A pg.75 "Optional Rules Block"
To cut down on dice rolling during combat, you could drop Damage
Resistance Tests entirely, reducing combat to a single Opposed Test. In this
case, Armor would deduct directly from the attack’s DV.

Has anyone used this under the current rules set? How has it affected your game? I really like the concept, but it seems to me that with the amount of armor that can be stacked under current RAW you would have a very large amount of shots that just harmlessly bounce off of people. Does anyone have any other house rules that are similar to this that they find actually work well? And finally, does anyone else find it annoying/unbalancing that a starting standard PC can easily net about 14/10 (plus or minus 3 to 5 for body rating) armor? How do you streamline the excessive dice rolling (20+ dice on a soak roll)? Do you house rule armor stacking?

All comments welcome.

And yes, this topic is inspired by a few other threads, I just didn't want to threadjack. ;)
« Last Edit: <11-19-10/0002:43> by voydangel »
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Chaemera

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« Reply #1 on: <11-19-10/0022:24> »
Yeah. . . before I used that option, I'd have to implement a couple house rules (HR) along these lines:

1. No armor is considered cumulative except the "Outfit Components" (within a single clothing line), helmets and shields.
2. The SecureTech PPP System is considered a "Component Outfit" (PPP segments are cumulative with one another).

Note that due to HR1, PPP wouldn't stack with, say, an armor jacket, only with other PPP, per HR2.

I don't even know if that would resolve the issue better than just buying hits.

My theory, if a DP>16, buy the hits.
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Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #2 on: <11-19-10/0755:20> »
So the streamlined version would be:
To-hit=Agi+Weapon skill vs Rea (+dodge for full defense)
DV=Base DV+net hits above-AP-armor?
That makes armor VERY powerful, three to four times as powerful.

Under normal circumstances, armor 15-16 is good for -5DV rolling and -4DV buying. Add 2 each for Reaction and Body and you've pretty much sucked up the base damage from a burst as-is (call it -9DV). Change that from -9 to -20 and combat is going to get VERY long against weapons while remaining painfully short against spells. In fact, this would put spellcasting off by a large enough margin to make it unbalancing, even if Counterspelling is treated like armor. Remember that after the base DV is accounted for, something like 10% of the initial shooty dice pool will translate to increased damage.

On the other hand, if one or both sides want to buy successes, that's great by me.
I'd even be ok with something like this: (normal dice pool modifiers on both sides apply and either or both sides may elect to buy hits)
Single opposed test of Attribute+ability+modifiers vs Rea+Armor+Body. Damage=DV +/- net hits.

You could abbreviate it even farther if you really wanted to:
Simple test Attribute+Ability-(Rea+Armor+body). If the number is positive, the attacker rolls and Damage=DV+net hits. If the number is negative, the defender rolls and damage=DV-net hits.

The second one penalizes the use of Edge, since dice are just plain cancelled so use the more normal combat  rules or option 1 when Edge is spent.

Chaemera

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« Reply #3 on: <11-19-10/0901:38> »
So the streamlined version would be:
To-hit=Agi+Weapon skill vs Rea (+dodge for full defense)
DV=Base DV+net hits above-AP-armor?
That makes armor VERY powerful, three to four times as powerful.

Under normal circumstances, armor 15-16 is good for -5DV rolling and -4DV buying. Add 2 each for Reaction and Body and you've pretty much sucked up the base damage from a burst as-is (call it -9DV). Change that from -9 to -20 and combat is going to get VERY long against weapons while remaining painfully short against spells. In fact, this would put spellcasting off by a large enough margin to make it unbalancing, even if Counterspelling is treated like armor. Remember that after the base DV is accounted for, something like 10% of the initial shooty dice pool will translate to increased damage.

This is why I said I would only even consider the optional rule IF you add in the other house rules I mentioned. Namely, get rid of all instances where armor adds up except for helmets and shields. Heck, turn shields into what they really are, a modifier to your Reaction roll, shields help avoid, not absorb, hits.

Now, the best armor in the game gives you 18/16, yeah, it's still massive, but it's Availability 20F, 30kĄ armor, it should be beast to take him down. APDS in a Barrett Model 121 will still reduce that 18 to 10 and with DV 9P + Net hits, the punk in the armor will be hurting in the morning.

That being said, buying hits is still the more consistent, more elegant solution, though I'm starting to think "armor subtracts directly from damage" seems a bit more realistic, if not mechanics-friendly. After all, a guy in military grade heavy armor should safely ignore anything short of anti-vehicle and high armor-penetration. DV - (Modified Armor Rating) reflects that better than DV - Hits.(Modified Armor Rating + Body). Does definitely make it a less lethal game, though.
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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #4 on: <11-19-10/0905:42> »
There are still a ton of options, many inexpensive, that either cut armor in half or negate it altogether.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Kot

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« Reply #5 on: <11-19-10/0934:24> »
Use flashbangs+stun+smoke grenades to approach and slice them in meelee. Let your mage go Astral, and slaughter them with mana spells. Drive them over with an armored or remotely controled car. Have a sniper take them out with called shots to unarmored areas...
Tinkering with the armor system would be a bit tricky, since it's connected with other core mechanic rules. If you change soak rules, you also need to change change resistance rules of all kind. And matrix rules, magic rules, structure damage rules. Too much work, if the problem is just 'PC/NPC unkillable'. There are no immortal enemies. Only ineffective ways of dealing with them. Even an armored, cybered troll juggernaut can be easily dropped by hacking his cyberware, or by casting one spell on him...
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Chaemera

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« Reply #6 on: <11-19-10/1149:39> »
Let your mage go Astral, and slaughter them with mana spells.

You can't target them with mana spells from the astral unless they're astrally present. An aura isn't a target.

Quote from:  SR4A, pg. 183, Step 3: Choosing the Targets
A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted).

If it's a honking Troll adept with mystic armor 5 in Heavy Military Armor with a Military Helmet, you need to go through that 24/22 armor somehow (including the use of direct spells cast in the meat).

If he's a mage using astral perception or astral projection, then he's dual-natured, and you can go to town. But, short of that, no metahuman (ghouls are critters  :P) is dual-natured.

All that aside, the rest of your advice is spot on.
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Kot

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« Reply #7 on: <11-19-10/1206:27> »
Chaemera: Can't you use a Manaball by pinpointing auras, or something like that. What about tricky indirect spells, like telekinetically smashing his head with a lamppost from astral?
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Medicineman

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« Reply #8 on: <11-19-10/1218:23> »
Chaemera: Can't you use a Manaball by pinpointing auras, or something like that. What about tricky indirect spells, like telekinetically smashing his head with a lamppost from astral?
Its still the Same The Aura alone is no valid Target for LOS ,not from the Astral Space !!
(Plane Separation is like Vegas: what is said in Vegas ,stays in Vegas: what is cast in the Astral stays in the Astral !! )

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Kot

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« Reply #9 on: <11-19-10/1235:35> »
I need to re-read the rules. Too much WoD to GM of late.
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Chaemera

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« Reply #10 on: <11-19-10/1303:50> »
What about tricky indirect spells, like telekinetically smashing his head with a lamppost from astral?

Quote from:  Street Magic, pg. 162, Combat Spells
Indirect Combat spells must always be physical, as they create a damaging physical effect to use against the target.
Quote from:  Street Magic, pg. 164, Manipulation Spells
Physical Manipulation Spells afect specific physical forms, and so must all be physical spells.
Quote from:  SR4A, pg. 203, Type
Only mana spells can affect astral forms.
Quote from:  SR4A, pg. 203, Type
mana spells cannot affect non-living targets.

Cool concept, but doesn't work. If it's an indirect combat spell knocking over the lamp post, it's a physical spell and has to be cast in the meat. If it's a manipulation spell, to affect a non-living object it has to be a physical manipulation spell (and thus a physical spell) and has to be cast in teh meat. If it's a mana spell, it can be cast on the astral, but it can't affect non-living targets (which are heavily implied as not having astral forms, if not out-right stated as not having them) and it can only affect astral forms, as previously mentioned.

EDITED
For cleaning of random mis-typing.
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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #11 on: <11-19-10/1440:49> »
As someone pointed out, magic acid works to destroy armor.  Also, nanites are a royal pain to deal with (just the armor eating kind are nasty).  And a sniper shot with the MP guass rifle is really unpleasant (half armor THEN -4 AP).

Not to mention the sonic rifle completely ignores armor.  The range is pretty close, though.  Send a drone in with one.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #12 on: <11-19-10/1639:28> »
Yes, armor can be broken through even if it directly subtracts hits. Any armor can be with enough power. Its a big change in gasmeplay, though, to go from an average of -6 DV for a given armor to -18. The first thing it does is give Direct spells a huge boost since they ignore armor. So now not only can your Mage cat all day, he's your biggest gun. Second, it means that only combat monsters have a real chance of inflicting damage. Your pistol wielding Face, with burst and Smartgun, might get a point through an armored coat now and then. That actually makes combat take longer because the smaller damage means more IP's before someone falls over. . . unless you have mages or chemical weapons, who can still end someone every IP.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #13 on: <11-19-10/1740:48> »
I don't like the idea of SR combat lasting longer.  Not only does it take away a lot of flavor, it takes away from some of the fun of the game if you drag out combat too long.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #14 on: <11-19-10/1858:13> »
The origin of the thread was streamlining combat. Unfortunately, armor=hits reduces rolling without actually shortening combat. I remember back in the 2050's when damage that got through armor seemed to be 1-2P (Light) or 25+ (Power 8-10 Deadly+5). So the heavies were dropping one guy per action and everyone else might as well have been spectators.

Then again we didn't have no Stick'n'shock, either and our vehicles ran on tires full of air, AIR I tell ya.