[Moonshine Fox]

This might be a bit controversial for a first post.

But what people here write how 6th world play will surely look like reminds me a lot of the discussions on 5e D&D on other boards, where people said this would surely be the downfall of everything that was good in 3.5 and 4e.

I'm skeptical too, when it comes to soaking and e.g. knowledge skills.
It's way too early imho, to deduce how the new edition will play out, based solely on the few things we know and learned from streamers who have a version of the CRB.

5th edition was the first edition of Shadowrun I got to actually play, so it is very dear to my heart.
But inferring a less realistic playstyle from what we know about the new edition is a bit much.

Anyhow: Happy to be on board for the ride until we get the new edition!

Hit the nail on the head from my perspective. 5th ed d&d seemed like a step back from the variety of 3rd at first, then I played it and realized that some of the “oversimplified” rules instead seemlessly integrated with countless more aspects of gameplay giving me a who lot more robust versatility in both what I wanted to do and in creating my own content! I suspect 6th World will work out similar once the full rules come out and dice hit the table.

[David Chart]

I think a lot of the concern is because the new Edge system sounds a lot like Fate points or similar narrative-based, meta-game mechanics. Shadowrun has not, historically, been that sort of game, and it's a very different play style from SR1-5, so I can understand the worry. But until we can see the whole system, it's impossible to tell. Unifying the modifiers of previous editions into a single mechanic might well make things smoother and easier to understand, but introducing a narrative-based mechanic would be a bigger change than Technomancers, in my opinion. Not necessarily bad (I quite like Technomancers), but definitely big.

Still, one should be cautious about initial reactions. When the fourth edition of Ars Magica came out, the initial complaints were that the wizards had been nerfed. Within a year or so, there was general agreement that the rules changes actually made them overpowered.

[Michael Chandra]

The biggest Edge change is that you can reroll your enemy's dice! O_O

[David Chart]

The biggest Edge change is that you can reroll your enemy's dice! O_O

Yes...

"Realism" is not really a useful term for a game with technomancer elves, but I think there are genuine concerns at work. Most of these ideas float around in game design circles, but I'm making up my own labels for them.

Games can be "immersive" or "narrativist" (let's say). An immersive game is one in which the player and the character make decisions for essentially the same reasons. The character dives behind cover for protection from bullets; the player has them dive behind cover to get the bonus to armour. Essentially the same reason. A narrativist game is one in which the player makes decisions for completely different reasons from the character. The character loses his temper because the ork insulted his mother. The player has the character lose his temper to get a Fate point that she can use later.

Shadowrun has been immersive so far, but the new Edge system sounds like it might be narrativist. It might not be; hiding behind cover because you get Edge is not that different from doing it to get an armour bonus.

A separate distinction is that games can be "simulationist" or "gamist". In a simulationist game, bonuses and penalties all have sensible origins within the fiction. You get a bonus to armour because you are hiding behind a concrete wall, for example. In a gamist game, the bonuses and penalties come from the game mechanics, and might have no foundation in the fiction. You get a bonus to armour because you spent the Fate point you earned by having the character lose his temper.

Shadowrun has been broadly simulationist so far, but the new Edge system sounds rather gamist. "I successfully hacked this system because I hid behind a wall earlier." The implementation details really matter here, though, and I, at least, don't know those yet.

Then there is "realism", which means that the game mechanics model the way the fiction is supposed to work. (We had a great deal of trouble in Ars Magica trying to create realistic magic resistance, which in one sense is absurd, but in another makes perfect sense — the mechanics should reflect the way the fiction describes it.) The concerns about the Knowledge skills and Armor are about realism in this sense; the concern that the mechanics won't reflect the fiction.

If Sixth World makes Shadowrun narrativist and gamist, I think it will alienate a lot of existing players, but I don't think it is at all clear that it does. If nothing else, the Edge mechanic does not sound as though it dominates everything, and the attributes and skills are still immersive-simulationist.

[Singularity]

But what people here write how 6th world play will surely look like reminds me a lot of the discussions on 5e D&D on other boards, where people said this would surely be the downfall of everything that was good in 3.5 and 4e.

Actually that is pretty much the reaction with any RPG that has a decent sized player-base and switches to a new edition, in my experience.

[Moonshine Fox]

The biggest Edge change is that you can reroll your enemy's dice! O_O

"I successfully hacked this system because I hid behind a wall earlier."

Or frame it like “I successfully hacked this system because I put my meat behind a good wall so I didn’t stress about stray rounds as much and had better focus.”

If Sixth World makes Shadowrun narrativist and gamist, I think it will alienate a lot of existing players, but I don't think it is at all clear that it does. If nothing else, the Edge mechanic does not sound as though it dominates everything, and the attributes and skills are still immersive-simulationist.

The new Edge seems to have the purpose of clearing out the 69 (dudes) different tables with dozens of modifiers each for every situation they could think of, and replacing it with a simple system that can then flex and bend to match any situation needed, including the hundreds that the makers of the original tables didn’t thing of. And with it being simper, it’s easier to expand on later without unintentionally breaking other things.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The biggest Edge change is that you can reroll your enemy's dice! O_O

"I successfully hacked this system because I hid behind a wall earlier."

Or frame it like “I successfully hacked this system because I put my meat behind a good wall so I didn’t stress about stray rounds as much and had better focus.”

If Sixth World makes Shadowrun narrativist and gamist, I think it will alienate a lot of existing players, but I don't think it is at all clear that it does. If nothing else, the Edge mechanic does not sound as though it dominates everything, and the attributes and skills are still immersive-simulationist.

The new Edge seems to have the purpose of clearing out the 69 (dudes) different tables with dozens of modifiers each for every situation they could think of, and replacing it with a simple system that can then flex and bend to match any situation needed, including the hundreds that the makers of the original tables didn’t thing of. And with it being simper, it’s easier to expand on later without unintentionally breaking other things.

The internet is where you post unsolicited anecdotes, right?  Here's one!

I've played 5e nearly every week (had to cancel games occasionally) for oh almost 2 years now. And in all that time, know how many times the range chart has been referenced? A bunch. Actually, that's not the point.  The point is how many times out of THOSE has a die penalty actually been assessed?  Once.  How many times have players scoured their character sheets until they found enough gear to cancel out pending penalties?  All the other times.  And boy at least a day of my life has probably been spent just haggling over bonuses to cancel out penalties.  For a net product of one measly -1 die penalty to one gunshot.

Penalties for shooting at range can absolutely go without breaking verisimilitude.  IMO the odds that you're taking a long range shot but not using scopes, night vision, etc are so low you can absolutely just assume they're in place and roll with the edge system for ease and speed of play, granting edge as appropriate to one side or the other if they're NOT in play.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Where as we use modifiers all the time. We pretty much never reference charts though. And no one is constantly scouring their gear for ways to cancel the penalties. They just roll with losing a few dice or know off hand a way they cancel some of it.

But hey magic land where dude who picks up a gun for the first time can routinely hit with a pistol at 100 meters in high winds in poor lighting but hey the enemy got 1 edge so they can heal a wound they took a combat turn earlier.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Where as we use modifiers all the time. We pretty much never reference charts though. And no one is constantly scouring their gear for ways to cancel the penalties. They just roll with losing a few dice or know off hand a way they cancel some of it.

Fair.  And that's why anecdotal arguments are less than ideal.

But hey magic land where dude who picks up a gun for the first time can routinely hit with a pistol at 100 meters in high winds in poor lighting but hey the enemy got 1 edge so they can heal a wound they took a combat turn earlier.

This seems like a non sequitur.  Shadowrun has never been a sandboxy, simulationist game.  It's a game with a very narrow focus: you not only play Shadowrunners and nothing other than Shadowrunners, you play experienced Shadowrunners right out of chargen.  Some dude who's never picked up a gun before is not a situation that's reasonably within the presumption of the game.  At least for PCs.

[Moonshine Fox]

Where as we use modifiers all the time. We pretty much never reference charts though. And no one is constantly scouring their gear for ways to cancel the penalties. They just roll with losing a few dice or know off hand a way they cancel some of it.

Fair.  And that's why anecdotal arguments are less than ideal.

But hey magic land where dude who picks up a gun for the first time can routinely hit with a pistol at 100 meters in high winds in poor lighting but hey the enemy got 1 edge so they can heal a wound they took a combat turn earlier.

This seems like a non sequitur.  Shadowrun has never been a sandboxy, simulationist game.  It's a game with a very narrow focus: you not only play Shadowrunners and nothing other than Shadowrunners, you play experienced Shadowrunners right out of chargen.  Some dude who's never picked up a gun before is not a situation that's reasonably within the presumption of the game.  At least for PCs.

I actually had a street level game like that. We were all gangers and the best combat skill was I thing a 4 with knives. We sucked at what we did but it was fun!

[Moonshine Fox]

Where as we use modifiers all the time. We pretty much never reference charts though. And no one is constantly scouring their gear for ways to cancel the penalties. They just roll with losing a few dice or know off hand a way they cancel some of it.

That sounds nice. Granted a lot of gear comes automaticly with penalty cancels, but few things are as annoying then a play who spends literal days scouring the gear tables for every single solitary bonus die they can get.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Would you prefer just has a 1 in pistols.  Though again I’ve had tables where people fired a gun untrained and with pretty crap base agility.  Things like deckers with nothing to hack, mages in absurd background counts. It’s just an illustration that edge isn’t doing what it is supposed to be doing when replacing modifiers. Modifiers are supposed to reflect and show a task is more difficult due to circumstances. Edge does not do that. The task is just as difficult as one without any challenges.

Take a non resisted task, you are walking across a ledge. Let’s say that’s gymnastics test threshold 1. If we detailed it’s chicago it’s the middle of winter and currently there is a big storm going on you might have modifiers to that and say the threshold is now 3. For unknown reasons when the test is opposed the task no longer is any more difficult. So if it was a living ledge actively opposing me with 3 dice. Now my task is just as easy in a bright and sunny day as in the storm the ledge just got a edge or two which it may or may not use against me. Now clumsy people can routinely cross the ledge in the storm because it’s highly variable on whether or not the living ledge has the edge right then or wants to use it in that fashion. Maybe it’s saving it to defend against someone else’s attack or heal some damage it took.

That makes no damn sense. As a supplement or add to modifiers it sounds great. Removing them entirely it sounds like a mess.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Where as we use modifiers all the time. We pretty much never reference charts though. And no one is constantly scouring their gear for ways to cancel the penalties. They just roll with losing a few dice or know off hand a way they cancel some of it.

That sounds nice. Granted a lot of gear comes automaticly with penalty cancels, but few things are as annoying then a play who spends literal days scouring the gear tables for every single solitary bonus die they can get.

I don’t think I’ve ever played with people like that. If it was literally this or die I’ve seen people scramble for something but it usually was massive uses of edge/karma.

[Moonshine Fox]

Would you prefer just has a 1 in pistols.  Though again I’ve had tables where people fired a gun untrained and with pretty crap base agility.  Things like deckers with nothing to hack, mages in absurd background counts. It’s just an illustration that edge isn’t doing what it is supposed to be doing when replacing modifiers. Modifiers are supposed to reflect and show a task is more difficult due to circumstances. Edge does not do that. The task is just as difficult as one without any challenges.

Where as we use modifiers all the time. We pretty much never reference charts though. And no one is constantly scouring their gear for ways to cancel the penalties. They just roll with losing a few dice or know off hand a way they cancel some of it.

That sounds nice. Granted a lot of gear comes automaticly with penalty cancels, but few things are as annoying then a play who spends literal days scouring the gear tables for every single solitary bonus die they can get.

I don’t think I’ve ever played with people like that. If it was literally this or die I’ve seen people scramble for something but it usually was massive uses of edge/karma.

Take a non resisted task, you are walking across a ledge. Let’s say that’s gymnastics test threshold 1. If we detailed it’s chicago it’s the middle of winter and currently there is a big storm going on you might have modifiers to that and say the threshold is now 3. For unknown reasons when the test is opposed the task no longer is any more difficult. So if it was a living ledge actively opposing me with 3 dice. Now my task is just as easy in a bright and sunny day as in the storm the ledge just got a edge or two which it may or may not use against me. Now clumsy people can routinely cross the ledge in the storm because it’s highly variable on whether or not the living ledge has the edge right then or wants to use it in that fashion. Maybe it’s saving it to defend against someone else’s attack or heal some damage it took.

That makes no damn sense. As a supplement or add to modifiers it sounds great. Removing them entirely it sounds like a mess.

Who said there aren’t still some modifiers? Just that the large many page filling amount of them trying to account for every single solitary situation has been removed and replaced with something a lot more versatile. And a opposed task can still have a threshold, that’s never been not a thing.

Where as we use modifiers all the time. We pretty much never reference charts though. And no one is constantly scouring their gear for ways to cancel the penalties. They just roll with losing a few dice or know off hand a way they cancel some of it.

That sounds nice. Granted a lot of gear comes automaticly with penalty cancels, but few things are as annoying then a play who spends literal days scouring the gear tables for every single solitary bonus die they can get.

I don’t think I’ve ever played with people like that. If it was literally this or die I’ve seen people scramble for something but it usually was massive uses of edge/karma.

I’ve had to deal with two. Thankfully they were a very rare minority.

[Crimsondude]

I have had no hand in 5E or 6E rules construction. Mainly because I don't have time to deal with that. Fluff is easy compared to rules. That all said, I love the new Edge rules compared to 4E and 5E and this is coming from someone who thinks that 3E just needed some tweaks.