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hits or misses in Gun Heaven 2

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shinobix5

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« on: <06-01-12/1629:27> »
After purchasing Gun Heaven 2 i do have to say bravo on the recent additions to our weapons selection. What in your opinion are some hits or misses out of the book IE: what would you use or not use.

CanRay

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« Reply #1 on: <06-01-12/1742:32> »
The Krime guns are misses for me making a character.  But are beauties for me being a GM!  ;D
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Mirikon

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« Reply #2 on: <06-01-12/1944:43> »
Here's my views on the weapons, in order.

Izom Aphrodite - A nice little SMG. The addition of a grenade launcher makes for the perfect 'oh frag' cover in close quarters combat. Plus, I like the ammo capacity of the 40 round clip.

Izom SS-374 - A decent shotgun. My only problem with it is the low ammo capacity common to most shotguns. I'd personally go for a shotgun that had a clip with more ammo. Less reloading in combat, and quicker reloading time.

Izom CSM-419 - This baby I like. Five passes of SA before you have to reload is a far sight better than what you see with some other shotguns. Comes with Smartgun included. Toss in 100 nuyen for Personalized Grip, and you don't have to worry about recoil at all.

Izom PHP-131 - A decent heavy pistol. Personally, I prefer the Predator, but this works well enough.

Izom RP-71 - It has a healthy supply of ammo, good for one round of suppressive fire. Other than that, I prefer the Fubuki for burst fire, or an actual SMG or larger for the BF/FA. Like most machine pistols, spraying lead is an OK way to work, but I prefer something harder hitting.

Izom HP-49B - About the same price and effectiveness of a Predator, but without the smartgun. A flashlight on a gun is like saying "Hey corpsec, please shoot here!", especially with the ease of getting vision mods. Though it would be interesting if they had a Lucifer Lamp version. Anyways, decent piece if you pick it up off an enemy, or need it to fit in with the locals. For personal use? Predator is still the standard.

Terracotta Arms Caravan - Like most sporting rifles, the one advantage this has over sniper rifles is the lower availability, and the fact that it is legal to own in most jurisdictions. A good choice for when you're outside the sprawl on a 'hunting trip' and need to maintain your cover. Cheap enough to be a nice throwaway for assassinations in the sprawl, as well.

Terracotta Arms Mordred - Toss on a gas vent 3, and you're good for two bursts in BF without worrying about recoil. Other than that, the safe target system makes it of little use if you steal it from one of the locals, but makes it worthless if someone tries to shoot you with your own gun.

Terracotta Arms Pup - Like most holdouts, worthless except as a truly last ditch defense, or where this is the absolute best gun you can get on short notice. Low price makes it a good throwaway, however, if you can get a wetwork target out of their armor.

Terracotta Arms AM-47 - The only sniper rifle to come close to the Barrett 121. If high-powered ammo required by this weapon is not factored into the weapon stats, then it exceeds the Barrett, for less cost. I don't like high-powered ammo, though, unless the GM decides that recoil compensation can help negate the -2 penalty.

Ultimax 47 - A fairly generic battle rifle. Decent enough if you pick one up, and the low availability makes it an easy 'in' to the battle rifle segment of the firearms population. I'd go with the Sig Saur 574 (Gun Heaven) over this one, though.

Ultimax 68 - A decent silenced assault rifle. Bare bones, but there are plenty of cheap upgrades that can reduce the recoil to a point that you don't have to worry about it in BF, and still not ruin the sound suppression capability like you'd get with a gas vent. A good choice if you need a quiet option.

Ultimax 83 - Decent, if you can't get your hands on any other assault rifle. If you can, however...

Nemesis Arms Spratley Stalwart - A gem of a SMG, and I like the look of it. Good ammo capacity, and ceramic construction means it is easier to get places it doesn't belong.

Nemesis Arms Praetorian - I love this little beauty. The fixed blade and melee hardening make it so that you can instantly go from ranged to melee without damaging the weapon, and can use it as a blade or a club depending on your skills. And it isn't much more expensive than the Predator.

Shiawase Arms Tsunami - A decent shotgun for people worried about hackers, as there are no electronics on it once you burn the RFID chip. Cheap and easy to get. Makes a good throwaway. Or it makes it easy to customize on the cheap. All those mods that invoke [Weapon Cost]? At 500 nuyen, those start looking better and better, don't they?

Shiawase Arms Type K2072 - Another holdout, another useless piece for any real work besides wetwork or last ditch defense. Reloading every third IP? The gecko grip is nice, however, for securing the gun in a hidden spot. Still, I could see this being someone's backup backup weapon, or the weapon they take to a showy function where real guns would be in 'bad taste'. Shiawase Arms also has some of the sweetest looking weapons in the catalog.

Shiawase Arms Copernicus - A solid "Meh." Honestly, I'd go with the Predator or Praetorian over this one any day. But if you pick one up off a formerly resisting opponent, you could do a lot worse.

Shiawase Arms Carp Hunter - Like the Caravan, the main advantages here are legality and the fact that a civilian weapon can play into your cover nicely. And it is cheap enough to toss once you've done some wetwork.

Shiawase Arms Riot Guard - This may be my new favorite shotgun. Toss on a smartgun system and some more RC, and you've got a solid weapon you can use as a club, or can fire in BF with no recoil, while still having a fair ammo capacity.

Shiawase Arms Hearth Protector - Decent backup weapon. Advanced Safety means it can't be used against you, but also means you can't pick it up off a fallen guard and use it yourself without hacking it. No real ammo capacity to speak of. However, it is legal to own, which can help you sell a cover. And if you use APDS, it becomes more effective.

Shiawase Arms Light Tactical - The only light pistol I'd seriously consider using over than the Fubuki as a primary weapon. Get a smartlink and silence it, and it makes an effective weapon for mages, hackers, and other non-samurai types.

Shiawase Arms Heavy Tactical - Again, there's my reservation with High Powered rounds. Doing more damage means jack if you can't hit anything.

Shiawase Arms Police Response - Fairly typical of the sniper rifles that aren't the Barrett. A good choice for framing local law enforcement for wetwork, however.

Shiawase Arms Tactical Model 71 - One of the better SMGs out there. Good ammo capacity, and all it needs is a gas vent to use in BF with no recoil. A good choice for close quarters work, especially if you throw on some EX or APDS ammo.

Shiawase Arms Tactical Model 69 - One of the few sniper rifles that can compare to the Barrett. Far more expensive, and I personally don't like weapons with the internal magazine, as they take too long to reload, but that is less an issue with snipers, where if you're reloading, you should probably already be bugging out. The weapon commlink feature is neat, and useful enough for encrypted comms while on an op, but not worth the price of the weapon, in my mind. If you 'find' one, however, it is a good way to reach out and touch someone.

Shiawase Arms Tactical Model 73 - Say it with me now, 100(c) ammo, standard. That alone makes this weapon worth a look in my book. Throw on some more RC, and you're good to go. A dream of an assault rifle.

Onotari Arms Deathdealer Ammunition Mk I - All right, the idea of bullets that correct themselves in flight is fairly awesome. Not worth the insanely high price or the certainty of S-K reprisal teams knocking on your door, however.

Onotari Arms Assault Laser - Like most laser weapons, very expensive, very high availability, but VERY effective, especially on high armor targets. Personally, I like these things for vehicle or drone weapons better than personal weapons. And if you have a mod slot on the vehicle/drone to put in the special machinery for a generator, then ammo capacity becomes academic.

Onotari Arms Room Sweeper - A decent assault rifle. Solid numbers, and good ammo capacity.

Onotari Arms Violator - Its OK, I guess, and since it only fires in SA, you can stretch that limited ammo capacity fairly far. The Predator and Praetorian are still better weapons, IMO.

Onotari Arms Steadfast - Only reason to pick this over the Praetorian or Predator is if the area you're working in or cover you're running under demands using S-K gear (or not using Ares or Shiawase gear) to blend in.

Onotari Arms Security Special - As a backup weapon, you could do far worse. If this is your primary, you better have spells or drones to do your real fighting for you.

Onotari Arms Sierra Libra - See all other comments about sporting rifles. I'd go with the Caravan or Carp Hunter over this, however. Still, the red dot sight is a nice throwback, and a good thing to remember if you have other weapons that can only take vintage upgrades.

Onotari Arms Rhino Hunter - As the shadowtalk says, a semi-legal assault cannon. High power chambering always makes me leery, however, unless the DM allows RC to compensate for it. This weapon makes for a good wetwork or vehicle hunting tool.

Onotari Arms Punisher - A decent assault rifle, and very sweet looking, but there are better out there.

Onotari Arms Kali - A beast of an assault rifle, that uses SMG ranges. But it is perfect for dirty, wet, or otherwise unpleasant environments where you would otherwise be looking for the rugged reliability of the AK-97. And the price makes it easy to modify, as well.

JP-K49 - A solid entry in the battle rifle segment. Though the lack of BF makes it more of a poor man's sniper rifle. However, at 5R availability and 3400 nuyen, it is cheaper and easier to get than most sniper rifles.

L-493 - Throw on a smartlink and some RC, and this becomes a very effective weapon for a troll street samurai.

Onotari Urban Hunter - This weapon gives me chills. If the DM allows RC to compensate for the -2 from high powered rounds, then it is a thing of horrible, horrible beauty. And the idea of high powered AV rounds makes me sweat.

Cavalier Arms Lancer - Don't like the internal magazine. Other than that, it is a solid weapon, and the presence of an underbarrel grenade launcher can be murder on foes (personally, I love the idea of just pointing the weapon around the corner and blindly shooting down the hall. Don't need accuracy when you have enclosed spaces and cover.

Cavalier Arms Sheriff - Don't like the high powered rounds. The idea of explosive high powered rounds does bad things for my digestion. Little ammo capacity and no RC make this a better club than a gun. Same price as a Ruger Super Warhawk with an integral smartgun added on, and the Warhawk has an extra cylinder. Plus, you can use APDS in the warhawk.

Cavalier Arms Dragoon - A solid backup weapon for trolls. Do not use it as your primary gun unless you are mainly a mage or melee type.

Browning Mega-Power - Would be good competition for the Predator if it wasn't for the tracking software included in the smartlink. Having a weapon that tattles on you is bad, folks.

Marlin M-58 - As always with sporting rifles, being able to legally carry this is the only thing that would make a shadowy type look at it over a sniper rifle. However, SS and 7(m) ammo put this below other entries in this category.

Charter Arms Curse - A solid assault cannon. If you could mod it to do SA and toss on a smartlink, that'd be even better. Availability is an issue, however, and both price and damage can't compare to the Ares Vigorous or the trusty Panther XXL. However, the increased ammo capacity would make it a dream choice for a drone-mounted weapon. Say, if it was stuck on an aerial drone?

Type 84B - Not a bad SMG. The ammo capacity is my only concern with this weapon, but it is cheap and easily available, so changing clips more often isn't too bad a tradeoff. Throw on a smartgun and some RC, and you're good to go. Just keep it off FA.

CZ-64 - A solid performer, and if it had a smartgun included it would be a reasonable competitor to the Predator. Even without the smartgun, it is a good weapon to pick up. Even better if Ares isn't popular in your area.

Krime Cannon - Internal magazine. Ugh. With the SA fire, you have to stop and reload every three passes. And if you're a troll carrying one of these things, long before then you're going to be the center of attention, in all the wrong ways.

Krime Stopper - 2(m) ammo capacity makes it complete drek as a standard carry weapon, but as a backup or last ditch defense I'll take this over a holdout any day.

Barrens Special - Dirt cheap, and deadly enough in a desperate man's hands. And in more capable hands, it makes the best throwaway ever. Also, I love the introduction of street manufacturing. We need more of this, IMO. More weapons that someone could make in a decently equipped machine shop.
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CanRay

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« Reply #3 on: <06-01-12/2030:59> »
Izom HP-49B - About the same price and effectiveness of a Predator, but without the smartgun. A flashlight on a gun is like saying "Hey corpsec, please shoot here!", especially with the ease of getting vision mods. Though it would be interesting if they had a Lucifer Lamp version. Anyways, decent piece if you pick it up off an enemy, or need it to fit in with the locals. For personal use? Predator is still the standard.
I think I'm going to use this as a standard for Low-Level SecGoons in dark office buildings myself.
Shiawase Arms Tactical Model 73 - Say it with me now, 100(c) ammo, standard. That alone makes this weapon worth a look in my book. Throw on some more RC, and you're good to go. A dream of an assault rifle.
Happiness is a lot of ammo and a target rich environment!  ;D
Onotari Arms Kali - A beast of an assault rifle, that uses SMG ranges. But it is perfect for dirty, wet, or otherwise unpleasant environments where you would otherwise be looking for the rugged reliability of the AK-97. And the price makes it easy to modify, as well.
And you're not going for the AK-97, why?  Those new Nanoforged Kalash's won't be supplanting supplies of '97s for quite some time yet.  And even then, there's a lot of good knock-off shops that make them.
Browning Mega-Power - Would be good competition for the Predator if it wasn't for the tracking software included in the smartlink. Having a weapon that tattles on you is bad, folks.
I'm happy to have another Browning on the map.  As for the tattling program, never trust software that came straight from the package.
Krime Stopper - 2(m) ammo capacity makes it complete drek as a standard carry weapon, but as a backup or last ditch defense I'll take this over a holdout any day.
I'm going to have this one be a storekeeper's choice for under the counter, at least until we get a decent double-barreled shotgun.  Despite the complaints in the Shadowtalk, I like the "Pump-Action Side Saddle" which allows for quicker reloading and not having to hunt for a box of shells in a firefight.
Barrens Special - Dirt cheap, and deadly enough in a desperate man's hands. And in more capable hands, it makes the best throwaway ever. Also, I love the introduction of street manufacturing. We need more of this, IMO. More weapons that someone could make in a decently equipped machine shop.
This.  Very much this.  Hells yes to this!

The Streetline Special is supposed to be a variety of examples of that, however, all given the same nickname.
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Falconer

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« Reply #4 on: <06-01-12/2306:17> »
The model 73 suffers from one critical flaw, a 5P damage code... 100rd mag is really nice.  It's little more than a SMG with an AR range.  Yeah it's got a bevy of features... bust most of them are just asking for a techno to screw you over... like safe target system (though used for suppressive fire it has it's uses... especially with a massive ammo capacity...suppress an area and don't need to worry about your team mates).

Also the base cost is a prohibitive at 2750, even if you get a lot of options for it.

The main advantage I see to it is to turn it into a drone mount weapon... dual feed, extended clip.  You got 250 rounds with two ammo types to choose from... but it'll cost you at 6000.  (compare to say a white knight on a simpe belted feed and using the 200rd's of ammo belt a weapon mount provides).


JustADude

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« Reply #5 on: <06-02-12/0124:39> »
The model 73 suffers from one critical flaw, a 5P damage code...

There's one thing you're forgetting. The Model 73 is also High-Velocity. With the Long Burst damage mod, base damage becomes 10P vs 11P, not 5P vs 6P, which makes it a much less significant problem... and if you're not firing Long Bursts with this thing, you're doing it wrong.

Also, get a Gyro Harness and a Strength 6 character can fire that thing fully compensated, while having it Sound Suppressed and Chameleon Coated. Slap it on an Ork wearing RPC-modded Heavy Military Armor, and you've got yourself one heck of a brownload-inducing "Ghost" setup.

Maybe a bit expensive for PCs, but spec-ops teams... especially Shiawase spec-ops teams... would love 'em. ;)
« Last Edit: <06-02-12/0131:50> by JustADude »
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Falconer

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« Reply #6 on: <06-02-12/0201:51> »
We'll just have to agree to disagree... I'd much rather a hyper-velocity modified ares alpha than that overpriced !#$!$#@.

I see what you mean... but you're sacrificing +1D-1AP before the armor threshhold merely for the privilege of spending more on less effective ammo!   I hope you have one hell of an ammo budget because you'll need it to make up for your costs!  (really at say 200 per 10 rounds for good ammo... 48 rounds in a combat phase... a street sam can easily blow through $1000 in ammo in a few seconds!).

Just like the alpha... the sucker has 2 points innate... and an extra 1 point from it's electric firing mod.

CanRay

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« Reply #7 on: <06-02-12/0303:49> »
Slap it on an Ork wearing RPC-modded Heavy Military Armor, and you've got yourself one heck of a brownload-inducing "Ghost" setup.
Or as a Drone/Vehicle-mounted weapon.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #8 on: <06-02-12/1216:52> »
What ammo are you buying that's 200 nuyen for ten shots? EXEX is half that, and SnS is even cheaper. 12S(e), -half AP, twice a round, since High velocity allows you to do two long bursts in a pass. Or you could do 17S(e) on a full burst. Or 9S(e) to four different people in the same pass! More to the point, grabbing an Ares Alpha, and making it High Velocity would bring the weapon's cost to 5100 nuyen, while the model 73 is 2750. The High Velocity mod is Weapon Cost x2 (Arsenal, pg 152, table pg 151). You get the extra +1 DV, -1 AP with regular ammo, but with SNS you actually lose out on the full burst benefits.

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« Reply #9 on: <06-02-12/1439:59> »
What ammo are you buying that's 200 nuyen for ten shots?
  Closest I can figure is Anti-Tank or Armor Piercing - 170 or 160 nuyen, respectively.

Falconer

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« Reply #10 on: <06-02-12/1531:09> »
Are you remembering to add in the street markup on rating 20F+ items?

We're lucky to get the good stuff for twice the base price most of the time....

Just my experience.

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« Reply #11 on: <06-02-12/1640:23> »
RAW, there isn't a specific markup based on availability.

Falconer

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« Reply #12 on: <06-02-12/1717:24> »
p312 BBB
Street values....  note the table to the left... and then the big  "The GM determines which variables affect the asking price, using the SUGGESTIONS on the street costs table (at left) as a GUIDELINE."


Now lets see.. with an availability of 16... and an absolutely illegal rating... just exactly how much of it is out there on your local market?  Exactly where are you going that APDS is just hanging off the racks for the taking at cost?


Your GM just hands you everything at base cost... doesn't apply any kind of a GM 'logic' filter to make a coherent game world... great.  Lucky you... in my case... we need to bargain and wheedle.  If it's not coming off the local kong-mart shelve or you don't have some in at say ares to slip you some marketing samples... then you gotta be willing to pay the games I've been in.

CanRay

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« Reply #13 on: <06-02-12/1738:07> »
Well, that's what happens when you deal with Archano-Capitalists.  ;D
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« Reply #14 on: <06-02-12/1811:39> »
p312 BBB
Street values....  note the table to the left... and then the big  "The GM determines which variables affect the asking price, using the SUGGESTIONS on the street costs table (at left) as a GUIDELINE."
  And none of those entries say anything about "stuff that has an availability over XXXX costs more".

  So, again, RAW ... there's no specific markup based on Availability.

Quote
Now lets see.. with an availability of 16... and an absolutely illegal rating... just exactly how much of it is out there on your local market?  Exactly where are you going that APDS is just hanging off the racks for the taking at cost?
  By the RAW?  The cost should be exactly the price listed in the book ... modified up or down based on an opposed Negotiation test.

  Mind you, I do think they should have retained Street Index for just such considerations: buying some things through the black market, should entail a markup.  But SR4A doesn't have it, so, the list price is the list price, end of story.  If the GM wants to decide that an APDS round is in especial short supply compared to normal on the local black market, those very guidelines suggest a +20% price increase.  That'd peg APDS at 84 nuyen per 10 rounds.  If it's in short supply and there's only one local source, there's another 20% increase, so those same bullets are now 98 nuyen per 10 (and not unreasonably, one might just round that 98 to 100).  We're still a damned sight short of 200-per-10, though.

  ...

  Where that availability of 16 comes into it, really, is that the player might volunteer to pay more, in order to get more dice on the Availability test, in order to find the ammunition sooner.  You could get to a price of 210-per-10, if you wanted to add +200% to the price ... gaining 8 dice on the Availability test (darned useful, versus that availability of 16).  But, that increased price is not at the discretion of the GM  It's at the discretion of the player.

Quote
Your GM just hands you everything at base cost... doesn't apply any kind of a GM 'logic' filter to make a coherent game world... great.  Lucky you... in my case... we need to bargain and wheedle.  If it's not coming off the local kong-mart shelve or you don't have some in at say ares to slip you some marketing samples... then you gotta be willing to pay the games I've been in.
  You do realise, I said there was no such specific modifier in the Rules As Written, right?

/facepalm