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Dongles on Internal commlinks?

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Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #30 on: <03-14-16/2118:05> »
Lemme ask you guys this... what do you call for to repair bricked Wired Reflexes? They're a cyberware implant buried deep beneath the skin, wired into the nerves and muscles throughout your body. They obviously took a lengthy and involved cybersurgery to install, and there's no real word in the book as to what "bricking" entails and whether than means some single tiny component needs mended or whether it means every relay at every nerve cluster, basically every pressure point, will need repaired.

Do you think it's just a Hardware check without any worry of getting to the implant first? Or is there going to be something more involved?

Now back to the Commlink / Cyberdeck, buried deep inside your grey matter, or at least very near to it. It comes with DNI out of the package, which means its circuitry is interlaces with all the important bits of your noodle. And explain to me why you think this one should be any easier to get to? Other than "Well, Data Trails gave us new toys to fuck up hacking and Matrix rules in general, and we want that to be extra easy to implement."

The repair rules that call for a simple Hardware check, are pretty obviously talking about a device lying on the workbench. Not one buried inside somebody. And certainly not one buried inside yourself.
« Last Edit: <03-14-16/2356:02> by Marcus Gideon »
The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work…when you go to church…when you pay your taxes.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #31 on: <03-14-16/2347:05> »
So basically you're saying you MUST use the Cybertechnology skill because that's the general rule and the implanted Comlink and Cyberdeck say nothing specific to break that.

Meanwhile we're saying you use the Hardware skill because the general rule is repairing Comlinks and Cyberdecks uses that skill, and the Implanted versions say nothing specific to break that.
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Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #32 on: <03-15-16/0005:19> »
So basically you're saying you MUST use the Cybertechnology skill because that's the general rule and the implanted Comlink and Cyberdeck say nothing specific to break that.

Meanwhile we're saying you use the Hardware skill because the general rule is repairing Comlinks and Cyberdecks uses that skill, and the Implanted versions say nothing specific to break that.

Purely "by the book" you would use Cybertech.

Core pg 145, Medicine.
Quote
Medicine is used to perform advanced medical procedures such as surgeries. It includes long-term medical support for disease and illness, and the skill can be used to diagnose a character’s medical condition. This skill is used to implant or remove cybernetics and bioware but cannot be used to repair or maintain implanted devices.

Core pg 144, Cybertechnology
Quote
Cybertechnology is the ability to create, maintain, and repair cybernetic parts. A character with the proper tools and parts may repair or even build new cybernetics.

Now you could test twice... once to gain access to the implanted Comm/Deck, and once to repair it.
Or you could average the scores and test once, reflecting your overall skill at performing the complex task of accessing and repairing.

Nothing in the rules suggests that implanted Comms and Decks are so easily accessible as others in this thread have suggested. Mainly b/c nothing in the rules covers implanted Comms and Decks specifically in any regard. But it's pretty damned Munchkin to point at the lack of very case specific rulings and come back saying "Well, the rules don't say that I can't wield an Apache helicopter in each hand!!!"
The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work…when you go to church…when you pay your taxes.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #33 on: <03-15-16/0013:47> »
Nothing in the rules suggests that implanted Comms and Decks are so easily accessible as others in this thread have suggested. Mainly b/c nothing in the rules covers implanted Comms and Decks specifically in any regard. But it's pretty damned Munchkin to point at the lack of very case specific rulings and come back saying "Well, the rules don't say that I can't wield an Apache helicopter in each hand!!!"

Just as nothing in the rules suggests that implanted Comms and Decks are any harder to repair than regular ones.

Also, piss off with straw man munchkin arguments. I'm not arguing anything of the sort, I just find it unreasonable that for something a regular as repairing Matrix damage to a Cyberdeck you basically need a cyberware clinic to take the thing out, THEn use Hardware skill to repair THEN basically needing a clinic to put it back in again.
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Nightmare

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« Reply #34 on: <03-15-16/0022:07> »
Can we all keep this civil? This is a subject that affects one of my PCs, so getting some type of answer to this all is more prefered to locking the thread. Just saying...keep it civil and all.

Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #35 on: <03-15-16/0032:03> »
Nothing in the rules suggests that implanted Comms and Decks are so easily accessible as others in this thread have suggested. Mainly b/c nothing in the rules covers implanted Comms and Decks specifically in any regard. But it's pretty damned Munchkin to point at the lack of very case specific rulings and come back saying "Well, the rules don't say that I can't wield an Apache helicopter in each hand!!!"

Just as nothing in the rules suggests that implanted Comms and Decks are any harder to repair than regular ones.

Also, piss off with straw man munchkin arguments. I'm not arguing anything of the sort, I just find it unreasonable that for something a regular as repairing Matrix damage to a Cyberdeck you basically need a cyberware clinic to take the thing out, THEn use Hardware skill to repair THEN basically needing a clinic to put it back in again.

You are absolutely arguing precisely that situation. Everyone in this thread is saying that in the absence of very case specific rulings, they're going to opt for the more convenient interpretation which benefits them the most in every way possible.

You're saying that it's just as easy for you to change the battery or SIM card on your cell phone lying on the desk... as it is for someone to remove an implanted Commlink buried inside their head by a cybersurgeon, so they can do the same thing.

Are the two devices comparable once they're both laid out on the table? Of course they are, they're both Commlinks.

Are they equally accessible at any given moment of the day or night? Absolutely not!

If it took a Cybersurgeon to get it in there, it's not just going to come out spring loaded at the push of a button. And if it did, it would take away any benefit to having it inside your head to begin with. Nothing in the book says anything about a DNI-only accessible eject button (which someone suggested earlier as a security precaution against forced removal). And even if there were such a feature, we're talking about repairing a device after it's been bricked... when it ceases to acknowledge DNI or any other form of interface. So there needs to be an external means of removing it if anyone is going to start making repairs. And if there is an external means, then it's only a Google search away for someone to find out how to take it out. You can,after all, look up all sorts of things like how to Root your smartphone, or how to factory default a router and what the default user name and passwords will be afterwards.

If someone kidnaps you and discovers you have a Comm inside your head, they're going to do a quick Matrix search to see what the manual says about how to extract it (tweak their nose up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right...) and they're going to take it away. Unless you treat it like a real implant, which would require surgery to access and remove. Convenient access is going to be convenient for you and for the guy taking it away from you. Complex access is going to make it safer, but also harder to modify later on. That's the trade-off.
The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work…when you go to church…when you pay your taxes.

Rooks

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« Reply #36 on: <03-15-16/0225:30> »
Lemme ask you guys this... what do you call for to repair bricked Wired Reflexes?
Stupid for turning wireless on when there was a decker near by

Seriously is there even rules for removing cyberware or repairing it?
« Last Edit: <03-15-16/0232:15> by Rooks »

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #37 on: <03-15-16/0235:53> »
Right so somehow thinking that needing a cyberclinic te repair something as common as Matrix damage to a Cyberdeck is perhaps unreasonable suddenly becomes me wanting to dual wield attack helicopters "because the book says I can't"

And the MAIN thing I've been saying is the argument is fruitless since both sides can claim "general rue with no superseding specific rule."

You need Hardware skill to repair Matrix Damage to a Comlink/Cyberdeck.

You need Cybertechnology to repair Cybernetics.

The issue IS that Implanted Comlink/Cyberdeck falls squarely into both categories with nothing to say which supersedes what.
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Leevizer

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« Reply #38 on: <03-15-16/0805:35> »
I wrote a lenghty explanation and a few examples but then I just realized it's all for naught.

In my opinion, and it might be wrong, you need cybertech to remove/install a modification, such as that commlink. Then, with the commlink removed, you need to use hardware skill to fix it.

So in short, you need both, IMO.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #39 on: <03-15-16/0823:33> »
Yet another topic where the rules need interpretation. So the answer to this question is, as with so many others: ask your GM.

Adamo1618

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« Reply #40 on: <03-15-16/0838:57> »
Seriously is there even rules for removing cyberware or repairing it?

Sort of.

Quote from: Chrome Flesh, page 165, Complementary Genetics
The downside of these augmentations is that the cyber or bioware associated with the complimentary genetics becomes more integral to the body systems, and thus harder to remove or replace. Doing so costs ten percent of the initial cost of the cyber or bioware.

This only implies other rules though, clarification would be much appreciated.

Hobbes

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« Reply #41 on: <03-15-16/0952:34> »
Lemme ask you guys this... what do you call for to repair bricked Wired Reflexes?

I use RAW a Hardware test per the rules on repairing Matrix damage.

If it's Missions Play I don't even do that.  It just fixes itself during downtime, no skill checks or costs required.

At no point in time have the developers ever stated you need anything more than a Hardware test.  There is nothing that states you need surgery or recovery time to plug in a dongle or a mod or repair Matrix damage.  You can house rule however you want, but RAW is very simple.  And given the even simpler rules for Missions play, I'd think developer intent is pretty clear.


Hobbes

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« Reply #42 on: <03-15-16/1004:00> »

Seriously is there even rules for removing cyberware or repairing it?

Not really.  There are some general removal rules but nothing specifically for repairing installed Cyberware.  The only damage Cyberware is expected to take is Matrix damage and that is fixed with a Hardware test.  There are no rules covering repair of damaged Cyberware.  Because their are no rules for Cyberware taking Physical Damage.  And Matrix Damage is covered by a Hardware test. 

Again, everyone here is free to houserule however you want.  But RAW is real simple, Hardware test to fix Matrix Damage.  Done.

Physical Damage and Matrix Damage are two different things.  Objects have different Physical and Matrix tracks, damaging and repairing those tracks are covered by completely different mechanics. 

Rooks

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« Reply #43 on: <03-15-16/1114:53> »
Guess it makes sense, just like how you use first aid regardless if you get shot in the throat or somewhere else that you need major surgery to extract the bullet just a simple first aid test

Nightmare

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« Reply #44 on: <03-15-16/1327:54> »
On a related note,
what are your opinions on weapon commlinks and dongles?

From what I've read, dongles should be able to be attached to weapon commlinks with little to know problem because the weapon acts as an external commlink. I mean, you can hook into the weapon via a datajack so I see no reason for you not being able to attach a dongle to it.