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Official Hacking/Cyberware/PAN Discussion

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UmaroVI

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« Reply #30 on: <03-18-13/2023:40> »
Wh
My smart gun is connected to my smart link and image link goggles, not a commlink.

Which means I have a far, far, far easier hack if I want to get at any of that.

Yes, but since they are not online and are instead skinlinked, you can't hack them without touching them, so their theoretical vulnerability to hacking is not very meaningful.

RHat

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« Reply #31 on: <03-18-13/2038:38> »
Wh
My smart gun is connected to my smart link and image link goggles, not a commlink.

Which means I have a far, far, far easier hack if I want to get at any of that.

Yes, but since they are not online and are instead skinlinked, you can't hack them without touching them, so their theoretical vulnerability to hacking is not very meaningful.

If they're skinlinked and aren't running any wireless, this is certainly true.  Given that he was talking about isolation and not wireless removal, however...  Your better off running them both through a skinlinked comm, so that you can get other benefits of AR.
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Novocrane

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« Reply #32 on: <03-18-13/2207:22> »
While we're on the topic;

Smartgun <> Cybersafety (mod) <> Cybersafety ('ware) <> Imagelink / Smartlink ('ware)

Quote
If the character also possesses a cyberware smartlink system, the safety links to it and the direct contact overrides any wireless smartlink input, essentially making the smartlink immune from hacking.

RHat

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« Reply #33 on: <03-18-13/2326:28> »
That'll do it.  Though, a question occurs to me: given that a cybersafety then has to get input from somewhere, does that mean the safety could, in theory, be hacked?
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UmaroVI

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« Reply #34 on: <03-19-13/1031:45> »
Wh
My smart gun is connected to my smart link and image link goggles, not a commlink.

Which means I have a far, far, far easier hack if I want to get at any of that.

Yes, but since they are not online and are instead skinlinked, you can't hack them without touching them, so their theoretical vulnerability to hacking is not very meaningful.

If they're skinlinked and aren't running any wireless, this is certainly true.  Given that he was talking about isolation and not wireless removal, however...  Your better off running them both through a skinlinked comm, so that you can get other benefits of AR.

I don't see why you would want to. If your commlink is offline, you aren't getting AR. If it's online, you have made yourself vulnerable to hacking again and thus defeated the point.

Mithlas

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« Reply #35 on: <03-19-13/1227:13> »
You're not going through their brain - you're piggybacking on whatever establishes the DNI. DNI isn't your brain, it's an interface between your brain and various devices. Hence why the DNI must be established by some particular piece of hardware.
I think that taking a step back and looking at the definitions might be helpful here: DNI = Direct Neural Interface. Cyberlimbs are an extension of modern day prosthetics, their neural interface connects to the nerves that used to connect to the limb. Yes, there are other cyberware that's implanted and has DNI, with the vast majority of all cyberware having DNI, but that's a component of each implanted cyberware and not a centralized system. I think you're making an erroneous presumption that all cyberware is connected to each other - they're likely all connected to the PAN, but not likely to each other.

You do, however, require an implanted commlink, datajack, implanted sim module, or trodes to establish a DNI - see the definition on page 217, SR4A.  There's also some sections of Unwired that you should take a look at, such as page 102; it establishes that the DNI is a way for a hacker to gain access to cyberware.
Quote from: Unwired p102
The target character may be shut out of controlling his own
implants by deactivating DNI or altering the account privileges
(requiring a Hacking + Editing Test).
This is the closest thing that I can find to your mention of DNI being a way for a hacker to gain access to cyberware, and it's not. It's a hacker shutting off access to cyberware. DNI is normally a means to prevent a hacker from getting into your 'ware, and it stops this generally by removing the wireless, not adding a new means of an outside hacker communicating with your implants. Unless you're saying that the hacker slaps on some double-sided trodes and goes into grappling with the target, in which case he deserves to have his neck snapped for trying to hack while in melee with a sam.

I'm inclined to assume the implantation of your first DNI-enabled ware includes the implantation of the sim module.
I'm curious where the idea that DNI includes a Sim Module comes from. There's no need for special firmware conversions that facilitate VR when you're attaching a cyberhand that lets you resume use of a hand that you previously had, used conventional nerves to control, and then go back to using nerves to control. Cybered characters don't need to rig themselves just to use their 'ware.

just like how you can "click" and interact with AROs with image linked glasses alone.
Those glasses need to have wireless enabled in order to receive the AROs, and the book mentions devices like AR gloves or keyboards or such that are needed to control and interact with AR. I'm sure there's an eyeblink system that allows similar functionality, but it's not the standard presumed in SR4.

a device with both wireless and skinlinked functionality, but that's clearly a bad idea.  It sounds unlikely to me, but I'm mainly being cautious.
Devices with skinlink can be set to default to skinlink, in essence shutting off their wireless - this setting would then toggle back to 'wireless on' if your skinlink is ever broken, such as if you have a smartlinked gun and it's knocked from your hands.

I'm pretty sure you can actually have really short-range transmitter (like 10 cm range) in a glove
Signal rating 0 is roughly 3 meters. Either way, I think you're right that skinlink isn't perfect (though it probably wouldn't be disrupted by sweat - look up galvanic skin response, a technique in some psychology experiments to measure physiological state), and the military would likely have more of a reliance on tried-and-proven wired.

Your better off running them both through a skinlinked comm, so that you can get other benefits of AR.
If they're both linked to a skinlinked commlink, which is a wireless device, they're now (indirectly) connected to the outside wireless world. Unless you're talking about operating two commlinks at once, which is something I've done on several characters before, but you still need to have the image link connected to something wireless or you can't interact with AR.

Though, a question occurs to me: given that a cybersafety then has to get input from somewhere, does that mean the safety could, in theory, be hacked?
In theory yes, but the cybersafety in Shadowrun is based on a wireless security chip that exists NOW, and has a signal range of something like 5-10 centimeters. One's implanted in the gun and locks the gun's safety mechanism if it's not in range of the safety chip, which is usually in a wristband or such easily worn item (or an implanted chip in Augment).

cre100382

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« Reply #36 on: <03-19-13/1337:33> »
I always kept two commlinks, a public that had my fake SIN, licenses, etc. that had a set of Image-Linked glasses that was skinlinked.  My smartlinked gun was skinlinked to a second commlink in hidden mode with a pair of goggles that I could pull on in a fight.  The tricky part comes with multiple trode sets or data jacks for each commlink.

RiggerBob

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« Reply #37 on: <03-19-13/1359:07> »
[...] book mentions devices like AR gloves or keyboards or such that are needed to control and interact with AR. I'm sure there's an eyeblink system that allows similar functionality, but it's not the standard presumed in SR4.
Quote from: SR4A,p.220
Control and manipulation of the AR interface can be accomplished with a variety of means.
Input devices include vocal commands into a microphone, AR gloves, micro-laser eye trackers in glasses, or even mental commands through direct neural interface.
When all else fails, the rudimentary controls on the commlink itself can be used.
Things from the Core Rules seem pretty standard to me...  8)

Mithlas

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« Reply #38 on: <03-19-13/1519:53> »
Good catch. I forgot about the micro-laser one (probably a silly thing to forget given that we've been working on the concept since before the 60s and have semi-reliable models now).

firebug

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« Reply #39 on: <03-19-13/2331:05> »
Quote from: Mithlas
I'm curious where the idea that DNI includes a Sim Module comes from. There's no need for special firmware conversions that facilitate VR when you're attaching a cyberhand that lets you resume use of a hand that you previously had, used conventional nerves to control, and then go back to using nerves to control. Cybered characters don't need to rig themselves just to use their 'ware.

I think he's just picking the least-explicit example from the list on the definition of DNI in the core book:
Quote from: SR4A, Page 217
Direct  Neural  Interface  (DNI):  A  connection between the brain’s neural impulses and a computer system, allowing a user to mentally interact with and control that system. DNI is conveyed by an implanted commlink, an implanted sim module, a datajack, or worn trodes.

As it implies that you require one of those things in order to have a DNI.  This also is related to the assumption that cyberware is DNI-controlled, based off this excerpt from Augmentation.

Quote from: Augmentation, page 31
Most cyberware comes with an integral direct neural interface, allowing the user to mentally access and control the implant.  This is the primary means of control for most cybernetics and requires the implant have a built-in computer.  Obviously, not all   implants require such interfaces. Some,such as dermal plating and bone-lacing, are passive augmentations and don’t do much but make you tougher or stronger.  Implants that   don’t require any sort of mental control still come equipped with RFID sensor tags as a matter of course.
« Last Edit: <03-19-13/2336:38> by firebug »
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mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #40 on: <03-20-13/0002:11> »
So anyone that gets cyber implants is required to buy one of those other things, too?
Remember, you don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, just kill the guy driving it.

Medicineman

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« Reply #41 on: <03-20-13/0202:02> »
So anyone that gets cyber implants is required to buy one of those other things, too?
You mean DNI ?
Thats allready included in Cyberware (for Free) its part of the 'ware
So NO ,you don't need to buy that too

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RHat

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« Reply #42 on: <03-20-13/0258:18> »
So anyone that gets cyber implants is required to buy one of those other things, too?
You mean DNI ?
Thats allready included in Cyberware (for Free) its part of the 'ware
So NO ,you don't need to buy that too

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AKA, hooray inconsistency.  This one, though, is at least easily dealt with by assuming that the implantation of your first piece of DNI 'ware includes one of those things.  However, as the definition of DNI is written, one of those things is required - it is written as an exclusive list.

Mithlas, you missed that Unwired implies that the only time physical connection would be required to hack in is if there is neither wireless nor DNI.

Quote from: Unwired, page 102
Some internal implants (such as cortex bombs) have no wireless or DNI connections and so are isolated from other systems,

Implying that DNI devices without wireless are not, in fact, isolated from other systems.
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Novocrane

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« Reply #43 on: <03-20-13/0314:32> »
given that a cybersafety then has to get input from somewhere, does that mean the safety could, in theory, be hacked?
I don't have an answer that I'm satisfied with. By SR RAW, I wouldn't consider the CS a wireless device, and that would make the best way in through the user / smartlink end of the loop.

Medicineman

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« Reply #44 on: <03-20-13/0448:47> »
what inconsistency ,RHat ?
DNI is part of most of the Cyberware .its included and neccessary for 'ware to work that way
Its always been hat way (at least in SR2 & 3 )

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