[firebug]

You do, however, require an implanted commlink, datajack, implanted sim module, or trodes to establish a DNI - see the definition on page 217, SR4A.  There's also some sections of Unwired that you should take a look at, such as page 102; it establishes that the DNI is a way for a hacker to gain access to cyberware.

This blows my mind.  So you can't have any cybernetics then without one of those things?  Or is it just that you've got datajacks that all your 'ware is hooked up to?  Seriously, that...  What?  If not, then how do you -control- your limbs without a DNI?  Because not every character with cybernetics has one of those things...  I need to go look at some sample NPCs.

[RHat]

I'm inclined to assume the implantation of your first DNI-enabled ware includes the implantation of the sim module.  It's not to specific on the point of where the cyberware DNI comes from, but is on what getting that DNI requires.

There's an alternate approach, but it's a hell of a lot stricter.

[firebug]

Hmm...  Well, thanks for all the information you've given me.  I guess the next thing would be, how you interpret the page you referenced, specifically this section:

Most external implants (like cyberlimbs) only have wired connections, requiring the hacker to physically jack in to
access the device. A datajack provides immediate access to all cyber-implants with a direct neural interface. Many internal implants have wireless links to aid medical staff in running diagnostics (like wired reflexes) or to link to other devices (like a smartlink).

This might mean that a DNI isn't required, since they are just controlled via "wired connection".  Their example of Wired Reflexes sounds like the kind you could disable without losing any actual function.  The smartlink is of course vulnerable, as we both agree on.  But then they also specify datajacks providing immediate access to DNI implants...  But now I'm not sure what exactly those -are-.

I'm quickly becoming lost; I appreciate your input in the discussion but it's falling out of my hands.  XD

[RHat]

Reflexes still needs the DNI or wireless to be able to activate and deactivate it.  That particular section you're quoting, though, is problematic as all hell because it completely neglects the fact that direct connection to a device is not a direct requirement.

I'm getting towards filing this under "matrix rules are vague", however, here's a summary of the facts as I understand them at this stage.

- Control of cyberware is done through wireless or DNI connections.
- As a corollary to the above, DNI is not necessarily a wireless connection; the method of reaching the DNI could be.
- As the DNI is a central point of connection, it can be used to bridge over between DNI connected devices; this is what a datajack is basically doing.
- As a DNI can be a wired connection, a device being wired only does not preclude that connection being a DNI.
- Establishing a DNI requires one of the listed pieces of equipment.

This leaves some unanswered questions, however.

[Medicineman]

You do, however, require an implanted commlink, datajack, implanted sim module, or trodes to establish a DNI - see the definition on page 217, SR4A.

only to use DNI on external gadgets like an external Comlink or external Smartlink.
every Cyberware comes included with DNI so you can control it with Your Brain.
Since 2065 (SR4) Cyberware comes ALSO (additionally) with Wifi for Ease of use (I guess)
WiFi is an Add-on nothing more,nothing less It can be used but its NOT (!!) neccessary

HokaHey
Medicineman

[RHat]

You do, however, require an implanted commlink, datajack, implanted sim module, or trodes to establish a DNI - see the definition on page 217, SR4A.

only to use DNI on external gadgets like an external Comlink or external Smartlink.
every Cyberware comes included with DNI so you can control it with Your Brain.
Since 2065 (SR4) Cyberware comes ALSO (additionally) with Wifi for Ease of use (I guess)
WiFi is an Add-on nothing more,nothing less It can be used but its NOT (!!) neccessary

HokaHey
Medicineman

See, I've been looking for something to actually state that cyberware offers its DNI in some way other than the aforementioned methods.  I've found nothing.

[UmaroVI]

One thing in particular that bothered me was someone who said wireless was badly designed, because the best way to protect yourself against it was to not use it at all.  This, to me, is like saying "Combat rules were a mistake!  The best way to avoid dieing is to not fight in the first place, what's up with that?" as if that means the system isn't thought out.

This is not a very good argument because it relies on a false analogy. If you could only shoot other people who have drawn guns, that would be a valid point. You cannot "opt out" of combat, because other people can force you to fight, but you can (and most characters actually should) "opt out" of the hacking minigame because there is no reason to have things like your cyberware be hackable in the first place.

[firebug]

It was an exaggeration and a parody, UmaroVI.  I disagree about not being able to opt out of combat (that's what social skills and stealth are for), and on your comment about opting out of hacking, the idea is that we're trying to discuss why cyberware has to open to the wireless matrix, or why it doesn't.  Remember that no mechanic should be 100%, I don't think any way of avoiding something should always work.

I don't mean to sound rude, but I'm a little concerned that subject (how to avoid combat) is a bit too far off topic of the thread, and the statement was intended as just an opener.  Sorry if I offended you.

[UmaroVI]

I'll take your word on the parody.

My point is not really about how to avoid combat, but rather that most characters can and should opt out of hacking. Having reviewed what you've written, I think where you are going wrong is this step:

One more thing to mention is skinlinks and the good old datajack+cable combination.  They are both examples of non-wireless ways to send data.  It's worth pointing out though, that they are still vulnerable.  This is where I believe people became confused about what DNI means.  A skinlink/fiberoptic cable can't be intercepted, and you can't send wireless commands to something that operates using those alone.  However, this is where hacking someone's PAN -does- grant you access.  A skinlinked smartgun and skinlinked Cybereyes might be impossible to intercept, stopping you from directly altering what a smartlink tells them, but it doesn't prevent you from using their commlink to issue commands to the gun (which it is important to specify here, is something that can be done with a commlink, unlike controlling a cyberlimb). 

Here's the issue: why are you using an online commlink to control your offline skinlinked gun and eyes? Nothing stops you from connecting them to an offline, Skinlinked commlink that's completely separate from and not connected to the online commlink you use to update your NeoFaceBook and make calls.

To be clear, I am not saying that this is or isn't good game design, just that it is how things work.

[firebug]

I actually think I was completely wrong about that section; you don't actually need to connect the skinlinked smartgun or cybereyes/smartlink glasses to a commlink at all, since you can command them entirely with your eyes, just like how you can "click" and interact with AROs with image linked glasses alone.  So, using those both skinlinked would make it an entirely separate system that isn't connected to the matrix.

That's one of the ways to get something completely sectioned off.  Unfortunately, it's not always doable with everything.

Also, and I'm mostly curious about Rhat's opinion on this, it might be vulnerable via the confusion that is hacking a DNI then using that to transmit skinlinked information, or it might just be vulnerable if you had, for some reason, a device with both wireless and skinlinked functionality, but that's clearly a bad idea.  It sounds unlikely to me, but I'm mainly being cautious.

[RHat]

Your smartinked gear is already connected to the commlink for purposes of its image link anyways.  You're more secure if it's slaved to the commlink and to the same with the smartgun.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

My smart gun is connected to my smart link and image link goggles, not a commlink.

[RHat]

Wh

My smart gun is connected to my smart link and image link goggles, not a commlink.

Which means I have a far, far, far easier hack if I want to get at any of that.

[nmap]

Even though the rules don't mention it, I'm pretty sure you can actually have really short-range transmitter (like 10 cm range) in a glove and the gun grip, and cable running up your sleeve to your glasses or datajack, with wireless turned completely off on both the gun and the glasses. Unless the skinlink works really reliably even with mud, sand and sweat, military would want something like that. Or you could do that with skinlink on gun and glasses, and don't have skinlink on you commlink, so you run gun and glasses on completely separate circuit, again with wifi off.

Of course, not having commlink connected to glasses means you won't see any AR, and I'm not sure how necessary it is to live in Shadowrun. That depends on your GM mostly, but you can still turn off your normal commlink and use cheap disposable commlink as walkie-talkie without skinlink on the run, and be safe from most of the hacking.

No AR means no tacnet, sure, but if you're running tacnet, you probably have dedicated hacker (or "EW specialist") to take care of you.

[RHat]

Shortest range is 3 meters.  Not all that hard to get a higher signal drone in range.

And in SR4, based on the setting as presented, you're not gonna get by too well without AR - you even pay for things in AR.  Which is why image links are so cheap.