[CanRay]

So, we have Dr. House and Sherlock Holmes that aren't Mary Sues.  That it?  Well, Harry might not count, he doesn't like a lot of his allies, of course, that might be because they want to kill him or have plans to do so.

Ironically, Dr. House is Sherlock Holmes (kinda).

I can see that.

Er, the traditional definition of a "mary sue" is not merely that they always win the endgame. If that were the case then 90% of stories would be defined as starring them.

It's in their depiction. They typically are handsome and liked by everyone that matters. They often are good at whatever task they need to do, even if (and especially if) they have no reason to be skilled in that area. They don't seem to have any real flaws, or if they do the flaws are set up in such a way that they either aren't really a flaw or are even an advantage.

-k

Well, that helps put me at somewhat at ease with some of my characters.  Their flaws are HEAVY flaws that do affect things.  Hell, their advantages are flaws as well.

Still worry about it.

[The_Gun_Nut]

It also pretty much refutes the idea that Argent and the Wrecking Crew are Mary Sues.  Mostly due to the fact that it's only the Crew, as a whole, that has the skill set they need.  Even Ryan Mercury, supa-bad-@$$ that he is, is only exceptional in his specific role.  That of infiltration/CQB.  He isn't sniping folks from 1000 yards, he isn't fireballing them to death, and he isn't a multi-millionaire by virtue of his financial acumen (the big D gave him that stuff).

The team as a whole should be incredible.  They are highly trained professionals who each excel at their specific role.  Together, they make up an incredible, hard-hitting team.  That does not, however, mean that they are individual, over-the-top, unstoppable MS uber-characters.

[The_Gun_Nut]

My definition really doesn't require clarification, faux-politely-asked-for or not, because in part a MS is defined by the viewer.

<snip>

Real quick, if it is defined by the viewer, then I hearby declare YOU to be a Mary Sue and not worth reading.

See the problem there?  My first post WAS polite.  This one was not.  Don't get snippy because I disagreed with you.

[CanRay]

If you're going to argue with a Gun Nut, do it with the Canuck.  I'm less likely to be armed with firearms. 

[The Jake]

I felt Assets Inc out of the Dragonheart Trilogy was more the Mary/Marty Stu team. In particular the main character and his relationship with Nadja Daviar... it just screamed it.

- J.

[Black]

I felt Assets Inc out of the Dragonheart Trilogy was more the Mary/Marty Stu team. In particular the main character and his relationship with Nadja Daviar... it just screamed it.

- J.

I liked these books, 2XS and the Dragonheart trilogy.  So wether the heroes were too perfect or not (and I don't remember feeling that this was the case), I still enjoyed them and that is the only criteria I have when it comes to fiction.

[CanRay]

I think it's the nipples that get people.

EDIT:  On the flipside, it's probably where we get the name Pornomancer.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Having played in a high powered Shadowrun game (and run one), I didn't think the crew in the Dragonheart trilogy to be overpowered.

The game I ran for my old group was set in Denver.  It was a high powered game where the team had to solve the mystery of one of their members amnesia (BTW:  don't take amnesia as a flaw, it lets the GM do whatever he wants to you) which then spiraled into a plot to seize the nuclear football.

For those unfamiliar with the term, the football is the collection of codes that allows the President of the USA (or UCAS, in this case) to order the launch of nukes.  In this particular case, it was to use some of the older Star Wars satellites to drop ordanance down the gravity well to wherever.  Think Thor shot upgraded from low orbit to geosynchronus, and instead of mere thousands of pounds, think up to a few tons.  Impact speeds exceed mach 25.  Enough kinetic energy to create a blast similar to a tactical nuke (25 to 30 kilotons) but without contamination or fallout.

The final episode of the game had them facing off against an Aztechnology Jaguar unit, and a great feathered serpent.  They managed to defeat everyone (with a few bullet holes between them) and got on their escape T-bird, piloted by a friendly cyberzombie.

After that, the events in the Dragonheart trilogy seemed pretty much par for the course for the big players.