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Typhus

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« on: <10-06-21/0122:14> »
Someone used a "their" instead of a "they're" somewhere too.  Haven't gone back to look at where i found it though.

Overall, I'm finding it a mixed bag so far.  Noticing a fair amount of places where concept > execution.  The Motor Pool Quality is a standout example of something I personally advocated for around here, but the way it was executed is really under-powered for what I'd want from it as a GM or player.  Saw the title and got excited, then I read the text.  Boo. 
   A couple other Qualities were really sketchy in terms of usefulness, like Affinity for Transit and Silver Lining.  A couple of the Negative Qualities can derail your entire game session (ex. Bermuda Gremlins and Fuzz Magnet) if you don't save them for a dramatically appropriate occasion.  They are funny ideas, but oof.  Driving mishaps derailed several of my games years ago even before Qualities were even a thing.  (My SR2 years would make the CLUE Files blush.)

Some of the thresholds look prohibitively high on certain things, like you'd need a 12+ dice pool for some things, or else spend Edge, but without that kind of build these options are not really for you.  Foot chases stand out as an Adept/Samurai/Troll only thing.  Your skinny mage and Decker won't be having these anytime soon, unless the people chasing you are equally low on dice.  Be careful throwing in foot chases.  Gang of mooks?  Sure.  Security forces?  Mmmmaaaaybe not for every group.  Just check the dice pools in advance, is all I'm saying to GMs.

Chase combat is another mixed bag.  The Step One and Step Two sections are clear enough, but then they restate all the same chase combat rules in a disjointed, non-procedural (rule by rule) way right after.  It's not clear where the Step Two section ends and the recap/rewrite part begins.  That actually make this section more confusing.  Especially since the second write up is not as easy to follow the wording on.  The Positional Advantage section is particularly vague (who is supposed to be the "you"?  Presumably the players?).  This section needed another run through an editor's hand for better clarity. 

Passenger actions during Chases felt like an afterthought.  Could have put in some fun specific Edge actions for them too, for both the GM and the players to draw inspiration from.  Really this is just "tell me what you are rolling to grant Edge to the driver".  Mechanically uninspiring sitting next to  all the Chase Edge Actions.

Upsides so far: Some fun and funny Negative Qualities (probably the best thing I've run across so far).  Looks like there will be some interesting vehicles available, though why we need stats for a container ship or battleships I do not know. Well, they are there if you want them I guess.  I haven't delved into the vehicles much yet.

I like that there are a number of things that are included that aren't just for riggers (and not even for vehicle combat at in some cases).  There's also a few fixes for weaker rules from the CRB scattered around.  I think we're up to 2002 uses for Edge now. 

Some odd stuff: Some drones have higher Accel and Speed Intervals than their top speeds.  I guess this is because you can mod the top speeds, etc?

One major knock I have to give this book is that is has very few pictures of the vehicles themselves.  Like maybe six of each for land, sea, and air.  Haven't recounted but it's very small.  Some of the more exotic vehicles would really benefit from pictures, as would the product overall.  Art adds flavor and this is largely devoid of a sense of that from the low amount of art.  I will say, if you ever thought the Hornet helo was undergunned, the absurdly improbable amount of firepower it is depicted with is worth a look.  That's a flying war crime right there. 

So far it's a 2.5 out of 5 from me.  The now-standard low quality of Catalyst's SR products remains unchanged, but there are some solid things to salvage from this one.  Some inspirational material, but as with all things 6e, adjustment and tinkering will be required.  I may change my thoughts after I take a look at the vehicle concepts, but as an old school players I recognize a lot of returning options converted to 6e.  I'd imagine this would let you resurrect riggers from prior editions successfully now.     
   Chase rules are just okay, could be clearer and made into more player and GM friendly products.  As it is, the GM would have to make their own Chase Combat player aids, tokens etc.  Still no rules for using drones for fire support in foot combat, but I think if you default to Accel as their base "walk" rate and maybe 2x that for a "run" rate, that would be close enough.  The CRB actually doesn't say what the action cost is for piloting or for drones moving on their own, so that's a rules gap still needing closure.  We can infer it's a major action to pilot things (I think this book may make that explicit), but it's not stated that I can find in any printing of the CRB I've seen.  All that is to say that drone combat feels overlooked in this book in a way so far. 

To wrap up my thoughts on a more positive note, I will say however, if anyone ends up doing a jetpack chase scene through downtown anywhere, I either want in or I want a link to the video of how that goes.  Done right, that would be epic madness.

Banshee

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« Reply #1 on: <10-06-21/0939:53> »
Still no rules for using drones for fire support in foot combat, but I think if you default to Accel as their base "walk" rate and maybe 2x that for a "run" rate, that would be close enough.  The CRB actually doesn't say what the action cost is for piloting or for drones moving on their own, so that's a rules gap still needing closure.  We can infer it's a major action to pilot things (I think this book may make that explicit), but it's not stated that I can find in any printing of the CRB I've seen.  All that is to say that drone combat feels overlooked in this book in a way so far. 

Ok, 1st off not replying to target you at all but was just having a conversation concerning this very topic with one of my playtesters about seeing the same complaint on Reddit, and it bugs me that people are seeing it this way.

Vehicle is movement (speed) is listed in metters per combat turn so they use the same movement scale as characters. We did that on purpose. A vehicle uses the same action economy as a character... so just moving is a minor Move Action. Only the distance moved is different. Piloting varies ... just "driving from Point A to Point B doesn't require a skill check so it's a move Action. Trying to do a 180 bootleg at 50mph ... well that a skill check obviously... so it uses the Use Skill major Action.

So in summary... we didn't make new rules for vehicles engaging in combat with characters because they are not needed. They use the same rules as already present.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Finstersang

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« Reply #2 on: <10-06-21/1016:00> »
One thing I just noticed: I couldnīt find any new rules or clarification for autonomous Drones earning Edge.

So, can Drones earn and use Edge?

  • On one hand, a Drone obviously doesnīt have an Edge Attribute, so one could argue that they also canīt earn and use Edge.
  • On the other hand, this would make a lot of stats useless for playing or interacting with drones, because they would be cut off from the core mechanic that governs them. An autonomous Steel lynx suddenly couldnīt profit from its high Defense Rating. Same for high Attack ratings, sensor enhancements and other perks and quirks. Not to mention all the important Edge Actions. It would obviously be the worst possible solution.
  • On a third, grossly disfigured cronenbergian mutant hand emerging from my lower abdomen, the authors of this book also came up with Attribute Mastery, so the argument that itīs the "worst possible solution" might actually be an argument that this is, in fact, absolutely RAI.   ;D

Can somebody please deny or confirm that conspicion? Maybe I just overlooked something    ::)
« Last Edit: <10-06-21/1017:40> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Banshee

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« Reply #3 on: <10-06-21/1033:16> »
One thing I just noticed: I couldnīt find any new rules or clarification for autonomous Drones earning Edge.

So, can Drones earn and use Edge?

  • On one hand, a Drone obviously doesnīt have an Edge Attribute, so one could argue that they also canīt earn and use Edge.
  • On the other hand, this would make a lot of stats useless for playing or interacting with drones, because they would be cut off from the core mechanic that governs them. An autonomous Steel lynx suddenly couldnīt profit from its high Defense Rating. Same for high Attack ratings, sensor enhancements and other perks and quirks. Not to mention all the important Edge Actions. It would obviously be the worst possible solution.
  • On a third, grossly disfigured cronenbergian mutant hand emerging from my lower abdomen, the authors of this book also came up with Attribute Mastery, so the argument that itīs the "worst possible solution" might actually be an argument that this is, in fact, absolutely RAI.   ;D

Can somebody please deny or confirm that conspicion? Maybe I just overlooked something    ::)

Ok, so 1st ... Attribute Mastery (and that entire chapter was a different author than any of the drone rules in any of the books so please don't confer any correlation. 😉

As for drones earning edge, Hjal and I have been discussing that lately (to address in a hopefully official FAQ) and while it is inferred but never explicitly said the intent is that they can earn edge but since they don't have an edge Attribute they can't bank it beyond the active scene.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Aria

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« Reply #4 on: <10-06-21/1058:26> »
There are summary tables for aircraft but none for ground craft, boats and drones that I can find?!?  Any chance they are lurking somewhere and could be released in pdf format?!
Excel Cha Generators <<CG5.26>> & <CG6.xx> v23

Finstersang

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« Reply #5 on: <10-06-21/1102:13> »
One thing I just noticed: I couldnīt find any new rules or clarification for autonomous Drones earning Edge.

So, can Drones earn and use Edge?

  • On one hand, a Drone obviously doesnīt have an Edge Attribute, so one could argue that they also canīt earn and use Edge.
  • On the other hand, this would make a lot of stats useless for playing or interacting with drones, because they would be cut off from the core mechanic that governs them. An autonomous Steel lynx suddenly couldnīt profit from its high Defense Rating. Same for high Attack ratings, sensor enhancements and other perks and quirks. Not to mention all the important Edge Actions. It would obviously be the worst possible solution.
  • On a third, grossly disfigured cronenbergian mutant hand emerging from my lower abdomen, the authors of this book also came up with Attribute Mastery, so the argument that itīs the "worst possible solution" might actually be an argument that this is, in fact, absolutely RAI.   ;D

Can somebody please deny or confirm that conspicion? Maybe I just overlooked something    ::)

Ok, so 1st ... Attribute Mastery (and that entire chapter was a different author than any of the drone rules in any of the books so please don't confer any correlation. 😉

Iīm aware of that, but should have made that more clearly ;)
TBH, even that stinker just one issue that can be easily ignored and forgotten.

But hell, even rest of that chapter is pretty neat. The Quality that fills up you Edge Attribute on a critical glitch seems a bit exploitable with lower dice pools, but then again, you also have to endure the effect of the glitch. Cheesable, but I doubt that players will really play that way. The Signature Moves are also very interesting and flavorfull.

As for drones earning edge, Hjal and I have been discussing that lately (to address in a hopefully official FAQ) and while it is inferred but never explicitly said the intent is that they can earn edge but since they don't have an edge Attribute they can't bank it beyond the active scene.

Now thatīs a relief  ;)

Thatīs pretty much how I houseruled it, but with a little twist: Unless they are slaved to an RCC, droneīs canīt bank Edge at all and always have to use it right away when they earn it. However, if they are slaved to an RCC, they can also deposit the Edge in a shared pool for all the drones in the network; pretty much like tacnets Mtocs or the new chase pool.

Goes a little bit beyond the scope of Errata/Clarification, but maybe itīs worth considering. Itīs a bit easier to track just one pool.

"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Typhus

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« Reply #6 on: <10-06-21/1112:01> »
Quote
Vehicle is movement (speed) is listed in metters per combat turn so they use the same movement scale as characters. We did that on purpose. A vehicle uses the same action economy as a character... so just moving is a minor Move Action. Only the distance moved is different. Piloting varies ... just "driving from Point A to Point B doesn't require a skill check so it's a move Action. Trying to do a 180 bootleg at 50mph ... well that a skill check obviously... so it uses the Use Skill major Action.

So in summary... we didn't make new rules for vehicles engaging in combat with characters because they are not needed. They use the same rules as already present.

I totally don't take it personally, I am trying to understand the rule.

I understand the idea that the vehicle move in m/ct.  That's obvious.  However here's the question I need answered:

"When I spend the minor action to move my drone, how far can it move?  What number in the stat array am I looking at to tell me that?"

That's what the rules don't make clear.   

(Edit: Assuming I start from speed 0 that is)


« Last Edit: <10-06-21/1122:32> by Typhus »

Banshee

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« Reply #7 on: <10-06-21/1136:18> »
Quote
Vehicle is movement (speed) is listed in metters per combat turn so they use the same movement scale as characters. We did that on purpose. A vehicle uses the same action economy as a character... so just moving is a minor Move Action. Only the distance moved is different. Piloting varies ... just "driving from Point A to Point B doesn't require a skill check so it's a move Action. Trying to do a 180 bootleg at 50mph ... well that a skill check obviously... so it uses the Use Skill major Action.

So in summary... we didn't make new rules for vehicles engaging in combat with characters because they are not needed. They use the same rules as already present.

I totally don't take it personally, I am trying to understand the rule.

I understand the idea that the vehicle move in m/ct.  That's obvious.  However here's the question I need answered:

"When I spend the minor action to move my drone, how far can it move?  What number in the stat array am I looking at to tell me that?"

That's what the rules don't make clear.   

(Edit: Assuming I start from speed 0 that is)

In increments of its Accel up to its max movement at its Top Speed.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: <10-06-21/1312:12> »
I broke this line of discussion out into its own thread.  Carry on :)  (and I lack the full phenomenal cosmic powers to move to general discussion... FastJack should be helping us out with that soon!)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #9 on: <10-06-21/1356:45> »
I haven't come up with some mock numbers to run a chase yet, but my gut feeling is that there are so many ways for players to put their finger on the scale that vehicle chases pose no challenge when you have a rigger.  Like, over in 3 rounds and the outcome was never in question.
Anyone kick the tires on this yet?

Typhus

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« Reply #10 on: <10-06-21/1424:56> »
Quote
In increments of its Accel up to its max movement at its Top Speed.

So sorry.  I'm really trying here.

So, since I can only do one Movement action per turn, if I start the drone at Speed 0, and spend 1 Minor action, are you saying it can move up to it's Accel rate in meters (not to exceed it's Top Speed if A>TS)? 

Banshee

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« Reply #11 on: <10-06-21/1433:54> »
Quote
In increments of its Accel up to its max movement at its Top Speed.

So sorry.  I'm really trying here.

So, since I can only do one Movement action per turn, if I start the drone at Speed 0, and spend 1 Minor action, are you saying it can move up to it's Accel rate in meters (not to exceed it's Top Speed if A>TS)?

Yes...
Example Ford Americar has Accel of 9... starting from 0 it can move 9 the first turn, then assuming it keeps moving 18 on its second, 27 on its third... etc until it gets to it's top speed.

Honestly it such a cludgy fun hog that I don't even bother to track it, often times a vehicles movement so outpaces a characters movement that they can quickly cover any distance with a character scale environment that I don't even track it unless it's a vehicle vs vehicle situation.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Typhus

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« Reply #12 on: <10-06-21/1501:16> »
Actually the rule in the book says the vehicle travels half the Accel distance, which makes for even more math.

p.199: "Distance traveled in a combat round = Speed at beginning of turn - 1/2 acceleration
rate (if any)."

So, meaning no disrespect to you as one of the authors, what's in the book is not aligned with what you are saying here (kinda like the Hacking situation).  As usual, I like your take on the rules better of course. 

However, you also seem to have just proved my main point that a better set of rules is needed for this case.  Even you don't want to use them.  So, how else would people take this situation other than the way I am taking it?  "Just ignore the rules" seems to be the consistent take I get on this forum to this topic.  Why not write a more usable rule?

I mean, fixes are possible and simple to make without major rewrites: "Treat the Drone's Accel rating as it's walking movement if it is moving more tactically.  Drones cannot take the Sprint action." two sentences to squeeze in somewhere.   My point was only ever that the vehicle rules as written do not work reasonably for drone support combat, and DC was the opportunity to address this issue.  It wasn't taken.

Not blaming you for that choice, I wouldn't know who made the call.  It's a disappointing choice is all. 

Banshee

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« Reply #13 on: <10-06-21/1521:10> »
Ok, yeah I missed the x1/2 when reviewing but that only cones into pkayvwhen accelerating or decelerating. Current speed is the meters per turn. Which actually reinforces my point..  when intermingling vehicle movement rates with character movement the vehicle moves going to far outpace the characters to the point where they either need to slow down to the characters approximate movement or quickly take themselves out of range. The whole math Olympics is only worth doing when it involves multiple vehicles... therefore I suggest just hand waving the math and have fun with the encounter by just treating the vehicles like characters (other than calculating variable distance per movement action they are the same anyway).
Its not that the rules aren't usable... it's just too much detail that doesn't add to the story at that level.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Typhus

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« Reply #14 on: <10-06-21/1534:34> »
So, just to clarify, I'm not talking about passenger vehicles moving at travel speeds vs character speeds.  That situation speaks for itself, as you point out. 

I'm talking specifically about one use case which is drone use at character speeds, which it seems you have again just said the rules don't support well/at all and should be disregarded (which the RAW do not have a statement about doing, or suggestions on what to do instead).  Thus the rules as provided to players are not functional for this use case. In my mind, that's a pretty essential use case to just shrug off.