Shadowrun
Off-topic => Off-off-topic => Topic started by: Major Doom on <03-08-11/0942:38>
-
Well folks, if anyone cares to read this properly WITHOUT clicking on the "Report to moderator" link and giving me negative reputation (what does that do anyway?), I have a concern. In my recent post Helps with some stealth, infiltration, and other rules for a new GM (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3102.0). It seems many (actually I don't really know how many) find my entertaining reply offensive. Nevertheless, I am hoping to learn what is the general reasoning behind targeting an individual post, focusing on one little part and claiming the post is wrong, bad, offensive, hurtful, or whatever negative connotations that seems to imply, that I as a member, find it difficult to post a reply without garnering some negative backlash from the community?
Also, has anyone else felt similar or does no one question anything, get in line, and put on a smile pretend nothing is wrong?
-
Some felt that your post in that thread was offensive and reported it to the mods. We discussed it and went with a public warning to steer other posters away from making a similar mistake (offensive language and personal invectives against a third party) in order to keep the atmosphere 'poster-friendly'. We're targeting the language and tone used, not the content of the message.
If you have further questions regarding moderation of the boards, PM me or any of the other mods and we'll be more than happy to answer them. As for this thread, I'll leave it open for now, but we'll (the mods) will be sure to monitor it to make sure it doesn't turn into a place to bad-mouth mods and their responsibilities.
-
I honestly saw nothing wrong with your post, it made me lol and I applauded you for it. Rereading it I can see how some would think you are bashing someone with the "you have a rules lawyer player" bit, but the rest of the post is so over the top silly it's hard for me to take it as anything but a joke.
My prognosis not enough cowbell (smilies).
-
There's never enough Cowbell. Or Dakka. Or Rum.
I want to drink rum while playing a cowbell and mowing down people with Moar Dakka in Shadowrun.
-
Don't feel bad about everyone else. I use to play with a group where 6 out of 10 players were rules lawyers (3 engineers, lawyer, 2 sales peeps) and everything became an embattled debate. I use to aggravate the hell outta me especially when they would get so upset that it turned to personal attacks... Unfortunately the internet doesn't offer all the nuances that physical life offers, yet, otherwise conversations could be clarified an amended a lot sooner, for those that aren't perpetually offended. That group ended up being rebalanced with the addition of a few more players (I had to find better counter balances to the personalities I had around).
I haven't read your other thread yet so this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, nor do I intend to imply that it is.
-
We need Sneak Plissken here... 8)
-
I heard he was dead. And taller.
-
Yes, he died from smoking American spirit...
-
Also, has anyone else felt similar or does no one question anything, get in line, and put on a smile pretend nothing is wrong?
I'd neatly counter most of this with "Why are you so serious?" This isn't some overwhelming, authoritarian, fascist regime that's strapping on jackboots and stomping all over your individuality. You got a warning on an internet message board; nothing more, nothing less. It's not the end of the world, 1984, horrible oppression, or something. Spouting melodrama about never questioning anything, pretending nothing is wrong, etc, is pretty heavy-handed and unnecessary.
In the end, the simple truth is the moderators are going to err on the side of caution and comfort. If folks report a post, it's a sign that there is something wrong with that post; intentionally or otherwise, if it got reported it means you did say something that offended someone. Fastjack didn't swoop out of nowhere and peck your eyes out, or something -- he got called in, because someone didn't like something you had to say. It's the job of a forum moderator to keep as many people coming back to the forum as possible, and in this instance the way to keep most people happy was to politely ask one person to tone it down a little.
Forum +/- reputation scores are meaningless. A simple warning from a moderator is meaningless. You didn't get banned, you didn't lose posting privs for a week, you got informed that some folks took your comments wrong, and were asked to ease up in the future.
I mean, you did start your (admittedly amusing, don't get me wrong!) little rant by calling Stalos' player a "rules whore." How would you feel if you were Stalos' player, you made a forum account to ask a few rules questions or get more into Shadowrun since you like the new campaign...and you find that post?
Before this guy even gets to show his face in a new forum and introduce himself, he's gonna find out that folks are calling him names behind his back, and the moderators are allowing it. Right now you're upset because you posted an in-depth response to someone's question, tried to add some humor to it, and you feel like the community's being super critical of you for doing so. Wouldn't it suck even more to feel like the community was being super critical of you (like by calling you a rules whore) before you even showed up?
In the end, the mods are doing their job by trying to make the place as user-friendly as possible, to as many users as possible at once. The fact you got reported means you liked your post, but at least a few others didn't; majority rules, when in doubt. Maybe you should just take the warning for what it is, acknowledge that sometimes humor gets absolutely lost through the internet, and roll on?
I'm not trying to bust your balls, here, but I've gotten my fair share of infractions, warnings, suspensions, post edits, and even a few bannings, during my years on the internet (and on RPG message boards in particular). You called someone a rules whore, you got asked not to do it again...and that's that. Nothing good (to your reputation, to the moderator's opinions of you, or to the forum as a whole) comes from stirring it up anything past that.
-
Although, we could get out the face cage and the starving Devil Rats... :P
-
Some felt that your post in that thread was offensive and reported it to the mods.
That just confirms that a single word or sentence is focused on, while the entire post is ignored. For example, if I were to post "Player A's character, is quite gay and happy", I'm sure someone will immediately hammer the "Report to moderator" button, claim I just used an offensive and derogatory word as "gay", when in context (and by definition) the word "gay" means "cheerful".
As for this thread, I'll leave it open for now, but we'll (the mods) will be sure to monitor it to make sure it doesn't turn into a place to bad-mouth mods and their responsibilities.
I find it embarrassingly revealing that the mods have absolute zero confidence in its members, in this case me, that it's assumed the mods will be "bad-mouthed".
Spouting melodrama about never questioning anything, pretending nothing is wrong, etc, is pretty heavy-handed and unnecessary
Ironically, that's what just happened. Melodramatic individual(s) took my post, focused on a single word, and reported me. I call that unnecessary.
If folks report a post, it's a sign that there is something wrong with that post; intentionally or otherwise, if it got reported it means you did say something that offended someone.
This brings up a good point. I feel offended for being reported. I feel offended that my amusing, entertaining, and insightful post was misinterpreted, intentionally or otherwise, and garnered negative attention and response.
Before this guy even gets to show his face in a new forum and introduce himself, he's gonna find out that folks are calling him names behind his back, and the moderators are allowing it. Right now you're upset because you posted an in-depth response to someone's question, tried to add some humor to it, and you feel like the community's being super critical of you for doing so. Wouldn't it suck even more to feel like the community was being super critical of you (like by calling you a rules whore) before you even showed up?
That's why I have a concern, (some or many) members are being critical of my post, repeatedly pounding on the "Report to moderator" button. My post was taken out of context, one word or sentence was focused on, and I'm the bad guy. I haven't seen similar incidences to other members, and I have read a few near boiling point arguments.
Also there was a post concerning me on this forum, by a player I know in person. I am actually mature enough to take criticism and learn from it. I took no offense, but I'm just not that serious and sensitive as a few or many members are over advice on an RPG game.
-
Sometimes only one word or phrase is enough. If I were to take the time to type out another multi-paragraph response trying to logically explain to you why the moderators did what they did, but I ended it with some blistering insult about your mother's honor and a Shetland pony, I would -- rightfully -- be in some trouble, wouldn't I? You called someone a rules whore, man. Not even just a rules lawyer, but a rules whore.
You don't see how it's possible for other users to maybe, just maybe, genuinely find that offensive? You don't see how it's pretty much the job of the moderators to, then, politely ask you to not use the term again?
Seriously, dude. It's only a big deal because you're making it one. Complaining about it in public isn't the way to endear yourself to the mods and show them you've learned that you accidentally crossed the line you didn't realize was there. Complaining about it in public isn't the way to get back into the community-at-large's good graces, to drag your reputation score (since it seems to matter to you) out of the gutter. Complaining about it in public and blaming everyone but you isn't the way to get over it and move on. Complaining about it in public and insulting people (with your hyperbolic cries of Orwellian oppression) isn't the way to make friends, influence people, and enjoy the forum.
You didn't get a ban, a time-out, or even an official PM'ed warning from the moderators. You didn't even get your post edited, to remove the offensive part. All that happened was you were politely asked to tone it down in the future -- I'd wager "rules lawyer" is fine, "rules whore" was what made it offensive -- and now you're blowing up about it like it's the end of the world, all while decrying other people for taking the internet too seriously.
Really, man. Just move on. This is you, shooting yourself in the foot right now. You are Charlie-Sheen winning the longer you drag this out and draw attention to it. I'm not a mod, and I'm not pretending to be one; I'm not telling you what to do, I'm asking you, and giving advice. You are not helping your case with this. I'm not here to argue, I'm just here to let you know you're not doing yourself any favors right now. I'm not trying to yell at you, just explain that I'm afraid you're blowing this all out of proportion and letting it wreck your fun here. Have a good day, and hopefully you'll just drop this and get back to enjoying yourself on the forum.
-
As for this thread, I'll leave it open for now, but we'll (the mods) will be sure to monitor it to make sure it doesn't turn into a place to bad-mouth mods and their responsibilities.
I find it embarrassingly revealing that the mods have absolute zero confidence in its members, in this case me, that it's assumed the mods will be "bad-mouthed".
Critias did a great job explaining what's going on, but I wanted to point out this quote. The reason we discussed it, made a public warning and left the post unedited is because this is a new forum. We're barely 6 months out of the gate and are still finding out where the line is, much less putting a procedure into place for when it gets crossed.
We're NOT saying we have zero confidence in our posters (hell, man, I was one of you until they tapped me three months ago to mod). We have the utmost confidence in the community here to keep it clean and keep it fun here. But, there are new members coming on board every day. It's good to have "examples" to show them what not to do on the boards, to post a sign that says "There's the boundary. This post comes close to the boundary, but doesn't exactly cross it. Use it as a reference for your future posts."
And I agree with Critias. You're complaining about your negative rep, about the heavy-handedness of the mods, but you've only yourself to blame. The Rep score is set by your peers and (so far) we haven't banned anyone from posting here (except spammers, but they're lower than insect spirits, so they don't count). Regarding the rep, ou have to establish yourself with your peers to generate the positives (and outweigh the negatives). This is done by bringing something more to the conversations than personal opinions. And with regards to us mods, remember that you're still around, so you haven't dug your grave yet.
-
Well I think what should really help people to find out the "line" should be the necesity to comment the "smite" or linking the reputation/fame gains to concrete posts, so an author may see, which one of his opinions had been praised and which ones were found hardly acceptable. I find it quite confusing to see that I`m smitted and I don`t know what for...
Im used to this from my "home comunity" forums (www.nyx.cz) and it works well. If you see that your opinion was not accepted, you may ask why...and it should be "educative" sometimes...well flamewars do happen but at least you know what do other people disagree...
IMHO This may be more effective, if you want some long term impact on the behavior of the community...
-
We also have to remember that this is the official company-sponsored message board.
It's going to have a level of required decorum and politeness you might not see on someone's private forum. That's just inevitable.
And my personal opinion is that complaining about getting reported is at least 35.4 times more melodramatic and overblown than the actual report. My math may be a bit off, it's 1 inna morning and I'm sleepy.
-k
-
official company-sponsored message board.
It's going to have a level of required decorum and politeness you might not see on someone's private forum. That's just inevitable.
That being said we can still have fun with out being offensive, hell look at half my post i'm just talking out of my butt
-
Sometimes only one word or phrase is enough. If I were to take the time to type out another multi-paragraph response trying to logically explain to you why the moderators did what they did, but I ended it with some blistering insult about your mother's honor and a Shetland pony, I would -- rightfully -- be in some trouble, wouldn't I? You called someone a rules whore, man. Not even just a rules lawyer, but a rules whore.
You don't see how it's possible for other users to maybe, just maybe, genuinely find that offensive? You don't see how it's pretty much the job of the moderators to, then, politely ask you to not use the term again?
Within the questioned thread, I did state I meant no offense. It's on page 2 or 3 of that thread. But using the said term, I did not feel it was derogatory/insulting, hence why I posted it within a humorous context. I did not think it would be over-exaggerated into something that would be considered demeaning.
Seriously, dude. It's only a big deal because you're making it one. Complaining about it in public isn't the way to endear yourself to the mods and show them you've learned that you accidentally crossed the line you didn't realize was there. Complaining about it in public isn't the way to get back into the community-at-large's good graces, to drag your reputation score (since it seems to matter to you) out of the gutter. Complaining about it in public and blaming everyone but you isn't the way to get over it and move on. Complaining about it in public and insulting people (with your hyperbolic cries of Orwellian oppression) isn't the way to make friends, influence people, and enjoy the forum.
First, could you relax a bit? I posted this discussion on the "Off-topic" section so it doesn't interfere with other threads since it is off-topic. Besides I didn't know exactly where to state my concern. I understand that posting a question/issue/concern may seem a melodramatic cry of complaints, but it's actually not. Seeing your quoted response comes off as "anyone that has concerns/issues/complaints can keep their mouth shut, 'cause we're not here to coddle melodramatic cry-babies". That's not a very inviting statement. Aside from my initial post on the concern from my Reputation, which has been confirmed that it is meaningless, I really have no care about it. Also, what's this "blaming everyone but you" bit? And the emphasis in italics? And you call me melodramatic? The only person(s) I am blaming is/are the "Report to moderator" button masher(s) that took my post, blew out of proportion, and now because I have a concern about the warning I received because I find it unnecessary and biased, I'm receiving flak for it. What am I just supposed to keep my mouth shut over a legitimate concern I have? No!
Regarding the rep, ou have to establish yourself with your peers to generate the positives (and outweigh the negatives). This is done by bringing something more to the conversations than personal opinions.
Eh, what? The entire approach, the entire basis of a community forum/message board is about its members' opinions. It's a culmination of theories, ideas, thought-processes, beliefs, and reasoning that outputs some meaningful and digestible result. What do you think, I as a member, doing here? Loitering about, starting fights? I've asked questions, I've gave advice, I cracked some jokes, while looking for support on a product I purchased (ie: Shadowrun material), and I'm supposed to go above and beyond in appeasing members' view of me, all because I have a legitimate concern over why I received a public warning? I'm gobsmacked by the absurdity.
Really, man. Just move on. This is you, shooting yourself in the foot right now.
And I agree with Critias. You're complaining about your negative rep, about the heavy-handedness of the mods, but you've only yourself to blame. The Rep score is set by your peers and (so far) we haven't banned anyone from posting here (except spammers, but they're lower than insect spirits, so they don't count). Regarding the rep, ou have to establish yourself with your peers to generate the positives (and outweigh the negatives).
And my personal opinion is that complaining about getting reported is at least 35.4 times more melodramatic and overblown than the actual report.
You guys are doing a great job in validating my theory that anyone that has a concern, needs to keep it locked away, not complain, and just continue to smile like nothing is wrong. Just sweep it under the rug, right?
Since any Tom, Dick, and Harry, can just slam that "Report to moderator" button like a contestant on Jeopardy, and just doll out judgement/warning without the receiving party having a say in it? So there's nothing wrong with how one-sided, one-dimensional, and one-way the process is? Also, mind you, with a public warning from a mod/admin, you just created a perfect tool for branding a social stigma on any member (in this particular case me) resulting in other members psychologically disqualifying the accused member's validity. Basically, by allowing overly-sensitive reaction to a post meant in jest and good-will, I'm the bad guy with no say. And as it seems by this thread, even if I do say something, I need to move on 'cause I'm close to digging my grave.
Are you guys serious? I did not curse anyone out, I did not cause a flame war, I do not intentionally insult anyone. I offered advice in a humorous way. I even said I meant no offense! And I'm supposed to sweep it underneath the rug, move on, 'cause if I rock the boat, I'll be digging my grave? That's real stellar support there.
You are Charlie-Sheen winning the longer you drag this out and draw attention to it.
By the way, I believe Charlie Sheen is badass, and deserves respect. The dude going through a divorce, is going to lose his kids, and is coping with it by doing crazy stuff like drugs, sexfests, and sticking to his guns with his viewpoints and strong opinions, is alright with me. As long as he doesn't do something stupid like go on a killing spree, he can continue winning.
-
It's pretty clear to me that you're either choosing to misunderstand and misrepresent every single word everyone is saying to you, or you're simply incapable of understanding the words in the spirit with which they're being said, either because we're saying them poorly or there's just a point-of-view disconnect here.
So I'm bowing out. I haven't been out to bust your balls or dogpile you through all this, but that seems to be how you're taking it, so I'm done. I sincerely hope that you'll cool down about this some time, go back to posting to any thread but this one (you haven't, since all this fuss started, which isn't a very good sign), and will go back to being a constructive and entertaining member of the community, like you were only just a few days ago before a molehill got turned into a mountain.
-
Some excerpts from the TOS, to which you have agreed else you'd not be posting.
2. Watch the profanity
This is Shadowrun. We know there will be occasional cursing. We simply ask that you keep in under control, and if the Moderators decide you’re overdoing it, you could catch a Warning. If you don't like being subject to moderator review with regards to what goes too far and what doesn't, then play it safe and don’t risk it.
Note that discriminatory language, including racial slurs, and words that are derogatory of a particular ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation are always out of bounds.
1. Play nice
When making a post on this message board, conduct yourself properly. Proper conduct includes treating each other with respect. Confront an opinion, rather than a person; personal attacks of any kind are not tolerated. The posting of messages or materials that are obscene, violent, abusive, discriminatory or threatening in nature, or designed to harass or intimidate another person are not tolerated.
We encourage lively debate about a number of topics, however when you object to a certain post to the point where you intend to attack the poster, contact the Moderators instead. The post may also be objectionable to us, in which case a heated response will just get you in trouble as well.
Some folks found your language offensive and they reported the post instead of starting a hub-bub with you over it. They went to the mods, exactly as the TOS advises them to do. While I can understand your wanting to understand what went into the decision to warn you, throwing hyperbole about Orwellian oppression around makes you look to be throwing a temper tantrum over a loss of freedoms you never had. You post on their boards, you play by their rules, don't like it, start your own board. It not like a TOS is a new concept to forums.
-
Dude, you keep saying "Why is everyone making such a big deal?" when you're the only one who is making a deal out of it.
We're just responding to your post. Ask for opinions, you're likely to get them.
Or did you really just come here to vent, not really seeking opinions but instead looking for people to agree with you?
-k
-
Careful with these kind of comments. I realize that Major Doom hasn't been endearing himself to many, but we can't have personal attacks against him because of his posts. He has a right to express his opinions and we can disagree with them, but don't attack him personally.
-
Congrats OP on the -21 Rep so quickly, that takes a special kind of talent
I don't think this sort of comment is helping. ;)
-
I was just impressed that's all in the WOW! sort of way
I am relay sorry for not helping the situation
however with the title of this thread I am dispirited that there have been no Joker references
@Fastjack warning received comment removed
-
Within the questioned thread, I did state I meant no offense. It's on page 2 or 3 of that thread. But using the said term, I did not feel it was derogatory/insulting, hence why I posted it within a humorous context. I did not think it would be over-exaggerated into something that would be considered demeaning.
The problem with this, and I have seen it a lot on the internet but its also starting to become more common in RL, is that people sometimes think they can say whatever they want - and add a "I meant no offense" or "it was a joke" and then its all fine, well its not, insulting people is still insulting, whether you meant no offense or said it as a joke.
It reminds me of saying "its nothing personal, but you are an idiot", IT IS PERSONAL, just like insulting people and saying "no offense" or "meant as a joke" is still an insult.
Not everyone shares the same humour, think the same jokes are funny, or has the same view on what isn't personal or isn't an offense.
This is why its important to self-moderate when posting on the internet, and/or engaging in social activities in Real-life, you can't just assume people will understand it as you wrote it, especially as the world is getting closer together, and one message board can have people from 54 different nations, 120 religious beliefs and 4890834 political opinions all reading/writing.
Some won't find the word you used (not going to repeat it) offensive, others WILL, solution - just don't use it and similar words, just because its not upsetting or offending to you, then it doesn't mean this holds true for people with a different background, race, religion, geographical location, political ideals.
It shows a lack of consideration and/or respect if people don't take that into account when they post.
-
And now I think it's fitting to include a discussion on how things work on the web (http://redvsblue.com/archive/?id=57&v=more&s=2)...
-
I like to look at it this way. Are you typing a post on an internet forum? Cool- now, re-read what you said before hitting 'post'. If you were at a meeting with your boss, or meeting the girlfriend's parents, or something like that, would you talk like this in front of those people?
Skip the smarmy 'I have a cool boss' and 'I'm single, so screw it' answers- seriously, if you were in a situation like those, would you talk the way you do in your post? If your post doesn't have anything that you wouldn't use in polite company, post away. You're an adult, you've got a working brain, you know if something is okay to post or not- you did, after all, agree to the rules here- so you read them, right?
It's not the end of the world, a warning got handed down, remember it and use what you learned to keep it from happening again. Freaking out publicly about it really doesn't do a whole lot for you, though- we're happy to discuss a warning with you, but in the future it might be better to talk it over with us in private rather than airing dirty laundry for all to see.
-
Uhh. Is there any possibility to switch off this thread from my "Show new replies to your posts" I would find it really useful in oportunities like this one...
-
There's never enough Cowbell. Or Dakka. Or Rum.
I want to drink rum while playing a cowbell and mowing down people with Moar Dakka in Shadowrun.
Dakka Dakka Dakka!!!