[Linkdeath]

"Can a device that is slaved to a PAN use the Device Rating of it's master to determine Noise modifiers and whether or not Wireless functionality is temporarily lost?"

Yes of course it can, it connects to that and then the matrix. This is exactly how we play it, anything else is silly and any peon with a rating 6  jammer shuts down everything, including military vehicles, what about planes ?

No, of course it can't. Think of it this way as well: the jamming signal is saturating the air all around you. You can't feel it, but your smartlinked gun can. Now, your gun may be slaved to your commlink, and your commlink is a rating 6, let's say. However, that smartlink is still a rating 2. If the noise level is 3 due to jamming, or whatever, you lose the wireless bonus because your smartlink can no longer communicate with the Matrix on its own. "But what about through the commlink?" I hear you ask. Well, the smartlink also can't communicate with your commlink for the very same reason. The noise from the jammer is preventing the smartlinked weapon to get any signal out. Maybe it can receive data, but it can't send out requests for data, because its rating is too low and is blocked by the jamming noise.

Note, I don't think I'm really adding anything to this discussion, other than another way of explaining it. Sometimes it helps to explain one thing a number of ways in order to clarify for different people. Hopefully this is helpful to someone.

[Michael Chandra]

Well, the smartlink also can't communicate with your commlink for the very same reason. The noise from the jammer is preventing the smartlinked weapon to get any signal out.

Not exactly, since you can wire the smartlink to the commlink. However, the device itself isn't set up to work its full functionality through a wire, wireless bonuses only work if the devices themselves can access the Matrix without intermediate.

[martinchaen]

Man, I can't wait for the errata on this. It makes absolutely no sense that a wired connection from a smartgun to a commlink wouldn't allow the smartgun access to the Matrix through the commlink so it could utilize it's wireless bonus...

Personally, I think the issue lies in the wording of "Wireless Bonus", when by all rights it should be "Matrix Connectivity Bonus" or some such. However it has access to the Matrix, the bonus should apply; a device inside a faraday cage can't receive wireless signals, but it sure as hell can receive signals sent down and optical wire and, depending on the length of said wire, latency won't be affected at all.

Fortunately, cyberware runs on neural interfaces and so are not excessively affected by this mess, but I know for sure how I would run the game seeing as I don't think the rules as written convey the rules as intended, nor reflect how SigInt works in the setting to my mind. If the RAW actually applied, why wouldn't everyone and their mothers just carry jammers, seeing as how a relatively cheap piece of equipment can so easily negate some pretty expensive tech...

[Elektrycerze3]

Man, I can't wait for the errata on this. It makes absolutely no sense that a wired connection from a smartgun to a commlink wouldn't allow the smartgun access to the Matrix through the commlink so it could utilize it's wireless bonus...

It makes perfect sense as a game balance thing.

Moreover, there is no strangeness or ambiguity involved: the thing is called wireless bonus and that means that there is a bonus you get for going wireless, as in without any wires. As Bull has coined in the SRM FAQ (the thing was said about the one-attack-per-phase thing, but the wording applies here quite well): don’t get cute and try to play word games.

I am convinced that nigh everyone who tries to circumvent the rule just doesn't like it. That might not be the case, but it sure looks so. But it is a rule, it is RAW, it has been supported by Aaron (see the FAQ topic), so we can assume it is RAW - deal with it. You can always homerule the thing, you know.

As for everyone using jammers, re-read the SR5 fluff. Everyone assumes the Matrix is safe and well-protected. Yes, every shadowrunner should carry a jammer, maybe some corpsecs should, but not every citizen: they have no need for them.

[martinchaen]

I don't buy into the game balance argument. In the same FAQ you reference, it was stated that "skinlink is not available, yet". This seemingly implies that skinlink is likely to make a comeback, especially given that "wires are cool"...

I think it's more than a little ironic that the FAQ states "don't get cute", when it then turns around and does the exact same thing (see above, wires are cool, folks!). And the fact that it's called a Wireless Bonus is exactly what I think is wrong with this rule, as I just stated; to me it should be a matrix connectivity bonus, not specifically wireless. Unlike some people, I just don't accept that an optical wire and a wireless signal do not have the same bandwidth, nor do I subscribe to the notion that somehow, because "I/O Protocols", a wireless signal is somehow "faster" (or has less latency, more correctly), than a hardwired system.

And I make no attempt at hiding the fact that I don't like this particular rule, rather quite the opposite.

As for your last argument, re-read the SR5 fluff, particularly the parts about security measures... Plenty of null areas in the zero-zones, and I'd be VERY surprised if the corps didn't make extensive use of wireless jamming technology, seeing as how it would easily hinder some of the pesky runner types who keep breaking into their compounds and stealing their shit. But that's neither here nor there.

Like I said; I can't wait for errata. And I have every intention of houseruling this particular bit of "game balancing" mechanic.

[Elektrycerze3]

OK, let's wait for it.
*prepares his "told you so" sign"*

[Emil_Barr]

(wires are cool, folks!)

Its ironic that wires are specifically pointed out as being in fashion again, given that we are punished for using them.

[Noble Drake]

(wires are cool, folks!)

Its ironic that wires are specifically pointed out as being in fashion again, given that we are punished for using them.

You either don't know the meaning of the word "ironic" or of "punished," but I can't decide which it is.

Wires make you noise and hacking proof - that's not a punishment, that's a benefit.

[JackVII]

(wires are cool, folks!)

Its ironic that wires are specifically pointed out as being in fashion again, given that we are punished for using them.

I actually think that was supposed to be a joke by Bull anyway. Either in this FAQ or some other official publication they note that you can wire your stuff if you want but will look like a friggin' dinosaur, a decidedly uncool term in context.

[martinchaen]

Heh, Noble Drake and JackVII, thanks for proving my point.

Bull did the exact same thing that a lot of players are doing with the whole issue of the wording of "attack action" have been doing, namely playing word games. To me, that's pretty cute...

Noble Drake; and just how, excatly, is being noise proof a benefit, when all noise does is cause you to lose wireless bonuses? In essence, running wires between gear = turning off wireless functionality, which means that "Noise Proof" = affected by Noise Rating greater than Device Rating. I fail to see how this is a benefit, somehow. As for being hacking proof; how, exactly, does that work from a game mechanics point of view? I certainly can't find any rules for how wires work.

[JackVII]

Bull did the exact same thing that a lot of players are doing with the whole issue of the wording of "attack action" have been doing, namely playing word games. To me, that's pretty cute...

Well, unlike the rest of us, Bull is acting in a quasi-official capacity as the Missions Guy. In his case, "word games" become "rule clarifications/interpretations that one may not like"

[Emil_Barr]

You either don't know the meaning of the word "ironic" or of "punished," but I can't decide which it is.

Wires make you noise and hacking proof - that's not a punishment, that's a benefit.

I dont consider it a benefit when I have to keep my equipment in a half functional state just to lower the possibility of some nerd making them totally non functional. I consider it doing half his job for him. But I suppose thats just me.

Its supposedly difficult to actually hack equipment in game anyway. If this is the case, then theres even less of a reason to go wired at all. Only reason I can ever see to is in a high noise zone where youd lose half your equipments usefulness anyway.

[Michael Chandra]

Half-functional is an exaggeration. Especially since the wireless bonuses mostly exist only to be hackable mechanisms. Now some (including me) may not like them, but they are meant to be vulnerable bonuses, and the gear still works quite fine without.

[martinchaen]

Bull did the exact same thing that a lot of players are doing with the whole issue of the wording of "attack action" have been doing, namely playing word games. To me, that's pretty cute...

Well, unlike the rest of us, Bull is acting in a quasi-official capacity as the Missions Guy. In his case, "word games" become "rule clarifications/interpretations that one may not like"

Except in this case, there was less clarification and more confusion. A cute comment lead to more, not less, questions about how wireless can interact with wires.

And I do agree with Michael on this one; I too am not a fan of these rules, but while wireless does provide bonuses it's not like the limb/gear completely shuts down if hacked/affected by noise. Smartguns still provide +2 accuracy, hydraulic jacks still provide +6 physical limit, and your datajack still lets you shoot around corners. They're not as good as they could be, but they're not terrible either. And this is coming from the guy who's spent over 400k nuyen on a starting character's 'ware...

Am I miffed that an 800 nuyen piece of hardware can negate some very potent bonuses? Yes, absolutely, because it does cheapen the value of those investments to me, just like a 10 nuyen dose of cram is as effective as a 95k nuyen piece of bioware in certain situations.

[Emil_Barr]

Half-functional is an exaggeration. Especially since the wireless bonuses mostly exist only to be hackable mechanisms. Now some (including me) may not like them, but they are meant to be vulnerable bonuses, and the gear still works quite fine without.

I will concede that that you can look at the wireless bonus as just that: bonus functionality. I dont understand that thought processes however. In SR5, wireless functionality is ubiquitous. Designers and manifacturers  create products with the assumption that the wireless will always be on. Wireless on is every items natural state.

No matter how you slice it, a gimped item is a gimped item. Since we as players get gear for the bonuses they provide, I would disagree that they work quite fine when not functioning at full capacity. Would someone with 1 rank in pistols say their predator is working just fine if they have to turn its wireless off? No, theyd wonder why didnt buy a Colt 2055. They still wouldnt be able to hit shit, but its 100¥ cheaper

If the goal was to get people to go wireless, mission accomplished. Theres no real benefit to wires, thanks to the ease of defending your wireless. Slaved to a rtg 6 comlink, its going to take 2 or 3 rounds to hack your equipment, and even if they get close, you can just turn it off/on anyway.