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Wirless bonus

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martinchaen

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« Reply #30 on: <02-14-14/0913:13> »
My table has been playing SR5 for about 5 months now, and the wireless bonuses have not really come up all that much. Some of the players have them (some more than others, hydraulic jacks being one of them), others don't.

I'm not sure I agree with removing the wireless bonuses and functionality all together; what incentive does a character have to have anything wirelessly enabled if there's no potential gain? How do you handle things like Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers without the wireless bonus? How do you detonate wireless grenades?

orcmeat: my recommendation? Play with wireless bonuses as they are, and see how it works out. Worst case you can always discuss it with the group later to see how it turned out.

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #31 on: <02-14-14/0949:10> »
Having read through it finally, I like about half of them and hate half of them.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why I can't DNI to a snap-blade through my datajack and use it as a free action instead of connecting it to the matrix. Or jack into my guns and get the supposed wireless benefits without going online. Is the gun really having to feed the ammo count into the matrix that then feeds it to my image link? Are my commands really going through the matrix before they hit my gun. It just doesn't make logical sense to add a third system into it, and undermines the power of DNI that has been a staple of SR.

Some just don't make any sense at all to me. Why is a periscope's penalty reduced because it's online? Why does the silencer's alert program only work if it's online? Why can't it work jacked in?

I really feel like the wireless bonuses were designed just to make deckers more powerful without any thought to realism. SR 4 already made most of my players shake their heads at how unsecure most things were, and they hate SR 5's approach.




martinchaen

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« Reply #32 on: <02-14-14/1053:49> »
WellsIDidIt
I hear ya; but apparently, the new matrix protocols doesn't allow for that kind of connectivity and/or wireless technology is now somehow faster than wired technology, cause, you know, science!

[/BS]

I honestly have no idea why the wireless bonus implementation was done the way it was, and it makes absolutely no sense to me the way it's written, but we've been playing with it for a while now and it hasn't come up very often so we just run with it.

firebug

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« Reply #33 on: <02-14-14/1128:15> »
WellsIDidIt
I hear ya; but apparently, the new matrix protocols doesn't allow for that kind of connectivity and/or wireless technology is now somehow faster than wired technology, cause, you know, science!

[/BS]

I honestly have no idea why the wireless bonus implementation was done the way it was, and it makes absolutely no sense to me the way it's written, but we've been playing with it for a while now and it hasn't come up very often so we just run with it.

It's not quite as bullshit as you make it sound.  The idea is that when something is communicating wirelessly at all, it's doing it through the matrix, which is why there's no "wireless direct connection/handshake range" like there was in 4th--  Not that 4th edition is relevant, since it is stated in-universe that they practically rebuilt the matrix (again), which isn't an uncommon occurrence.

As for the "wireless is faster than wired" I was of the understanding it was because wireless devices essentially join the matrix cloud and have accessed to unused processing power in other devices.  It makes enough sense to me.

And one major thing...  It's not "because science".  It's "because science fiction".  I dunno if you noticed, but the real world doesn't have full sim-sense VR, global wireless internet, the ability to mentally link with machines to control them as natural extensions of your body with no training (and in fact in such a way that makes it easier, because of how control rigs work).  It's one thing to say "we have guns, and guns don't fire like that" for things like balance issues, but the real world has very little that is commercially available that you can compare to how the science fiction part of Shadowrun works.  And really, trying to is like saying you think mages are dumb because magic doesn't exist.
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Mithlas

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« Reply #34 on: <02-14-14/1209:57> »
I don't mind the existence of wireless bonuses, but I don't think every item should get them. If a silencer has a microphone to listen to people scattering from a miss then it should be able to operate whether or not you're hooked into Sony's authentication servers (even if you need to have your hacker friend make a Hardware test to flip that switch on). Others like the concealable holster that hide themselves better by broadcasting their existence to an ever-more-watched Matrix just make me scratch my head at what seems like an oxymoron.

The ones I have a big problem with are ones like the internal air tank cyberware, which must have a capacity sensor as part of its design (you wouldn't be able to safely fill it without any means of measuring its capacity) - or to work once you inexplicably want to wirelessly link it to Sony's authentication server. As far as DNI and speed of actions... my opinion is that DNI should always be at least as fast as routing things through the Matrix. It's just a matter of computer architecture - when sending a command, a shorter route will complete faster than a longer one. Ones like the Trauma Patch, on the other hand, which basically only stop people from bleeding out (presumably if they're able to link into the online physiology libraries) not only make sense but do not require (significant) sensors or hardware that "only" work in its wireless mode. In other words, wireless should've been a much more sparing bonus, which would've also aided the developers in giving good wireless bonuses to things that sensibly could/should have them.

At this point, that's houserule territory, so it doesn't make much difference. Although I do hope there are some optional rules that are presented in the matrix book.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #35 on: <02-14-14/1221:47> »
They're definitely going to be interesting to houserule. :)
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firebug

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« Reply #36 on: <02-14-14/1246:25> »
Yeah there's some really nonsensical ones.  That air tank one you mentioned, Mithlas, could be explained in that there's no way for you to view the amount otherwise...  At least, assuming the minimum amount of other gear.  I'm sure with a datajack or something you could have it go from the tank, through the jack, to a commlink or AR goggles without it being wireless.

But some of them do seem totally arbitrary--  Especially ones that offer just plain bonuses instead of additional (logical) functionality, which feels like they really just wanted as many things to have wireless bonuses as possible.  The ones that just make you do stuff faster though, like open your built-in smuggling compartment or set up your arm's gyromount, just don't make any sense because you've already got a built-in DNI...  Those are the ones that really confuse me.
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orcmeat

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« Reply #37 on: <02-14-14/1315:51> »
What would happen with a bricked air tank? could you make it explode? decompress?
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JackVII

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« Reply #38 on: <02-14-14/1338:05> »
In the spirit of not unduly screwing people, I'd just rule that it stops working. Granted, if you're underwater when that happens, ypu might be in trouble.
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #39 on: <02-15-14/1208:23> »
It's not quite as bullshit as you make it sound.  The idea is that when something is communicating wirelessly at all, it's doing it through the matrix, which is why there's no "wireless direct connection/handshake range" like there was in 4th--  Not that 4th edition is relevant, since it is stated in-universe that they practically rebuilt the matrix (again), which isn't an uncommon occurrence.

As for the "wireless is faster than wired" I was of the understanding it was because wireless devices essentially join the matrix cloud and have accessed to unused processing power in other devices.  It makes enough sense to me.

And one major thing...  It's not "because science".  It's "because science fiction".  I dunno if you noticed, but the real world doesn't have full sim-sense VR, global wireless internet, the ability to mentally link with machines to control them as natural extensions of your body with no training (and in fact in such a way that makes it easier, because of how control rigs work).  It's one thing to say "we have guns, and guns don't fire like that" for things like balance issues, but the real world has very little that is commercially available that you can compare to how the science fiction part of Shadowrun works.  And really, trying to is like saying you think mages are dumb because magic doesn't exist.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it is non-sensical. Think about it for a moment. Who built the new matrix? Megacorps had to have had a hand in it. There is no way the megacorps would design a system that forces all of their data transfers to be even more prone to hacking.

As for processing power. Again, we run into an issue where apparently most devices have had their processing abilities drop in the past four years. This is the opposite of how it should be. Technology improves. We get faster processors every year, not slower. Additionally, designing your software to have to make use of random other processors to work is sloppy design. No decent tech firm would do that.

Your last paragraph is flawed. It's not just science fiction, it's science fiction with twenty years of past history that we can look at and compare. Sure, we don't have real life DNI, VR, etc. We do have what we know about 2070, 2065, 2060, 2055, and 2050 DNI, VR, etc. to play with though. Comparing SR 5 DNI benefits to SR 4 benefits shows that DNI has been mutilated for no reason at all.

The only plausible reasoning for this is that, from a design point, they wanted hackers to have an easier time getting into things. They then built a hasty and flawed justification for it.

I liked the though of wireless bonuses when I first heard them, I just think most of their execution was flawed. Most of these bonuses should be possible without connecting to the internet.

Think about some of these wireless bonuses for a moment. I list two major offenders to common sense.

Silencers for example. Let me get this straight, my accessory that is either A.) Illegal or B.) part of a black op needs to be on a ridiculously low security wifi connection for full functionality? Seriously, who would design it to work this way? No one. No logical person would ever design this device to work in this manner. I makes no sense.

Now, let's look at Airburst Link. These exist today. They program the grenade just before it fires with the distance it explodes at. Why does the tech sixty years in the future have to rely on a less secure system? Again, it makes no logical sense.

As a programmer, there is just no way any group would rebuild a less secure system unless the intent was to make hacking easier and harder to manage.

martinchaen

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« Reply #40 on: <02-15-14/1816:34> »
Firebug
I was not being serious. I should have ended the quote with [/sarcasm] instead...

I do find a lot of the "progressions" that happened in SR5 to be totally counterproductive if one considers the intent behind said changes, however.

firebug

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« Reply #41 on: <02-15-14/2202:27> »
Firebug
I was not being serious. I should have ended the quote with [/sarcasm] instead...

I do find a lot of the "progressions" that happened in SR5 to be totally counterproductive if one considers the intent behind said changes, however.

I wasn't taking offense, I just felt it'd be a good opportunity to put in my opinion on the changes.
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Geewaagh

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« Reply #42 on: <02-16-14/0839:55> »
Another point of view on this subject: We can talk about how secure the wireless matrix is (or is not), and everything being accessible to hackers, but I would like to make a counter point. The crappiest deck, the Erika MCD-1 cost 49,500 ¥!  You can purchase nice cars for that price, and its only purpose is illegal activity.  That is a ton of nuyen to blow on hacking.  This is a very high end piece of tech.  Economics alone state that the matrix is pretty dang secure. If I were a wage slave (and I am), I would not be able to hack your devices because I can afford it.  Neither can my neighbor, or my neighbor’s brothers cousin.  Gangbangers don’t have decks.  If I wanted to brick your commlink, it would be cheaper for me to fly to your city, buy a motorbike, gun, and ammo (maybe a nice outfit just for the occasion), drive to your house, shoot you, and step on your commlink with my new combat boots. 

Deckers might be common in the shadows, but they are not that common!

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #43 on: <02-16-14/0851:27> »
It would also be cheaper to buy the gun and ammo and break into a corp and jack one from the security decker or hijack the next shipment to the under-construction corp HQ. Just because we buy things at CC doesn't mean they are always bought in game. Back when I got to play, we would often set up entire runs ourselves just to snag hire avail./cost goods.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #44 on: <02-16-14/1340:40> »
Perhaps, but your still dealing with a very high end piece of gear that not every joe blow would use. Like not everyone has celluer glove things or retina copiers.

However, throw my hat in the 'doesn't make RP sense' ring. I understand it as game mechanics, but in the world not so much. With the silencer I could see maybe it has a pilot program that hacks into nearby commlinks or something without bringing GOD down on it or something.


IN Ghost in the Shell, the sniper has an eye thing that uses a connection to a satellite to line up his shots better. That makes sense as a wireless bonus, but like Wells says it doesn't make sense that the spurs can only act fast wirelessly and not with a DNI. It shouldn't be accessing a server to do its thing.

Could you imagine if wolverine had to do that?

"Oh hold on guys.. Sabertooth can you wait a moment, I got to find a wifi single.."
« Last Edit: <02-16-14/1352:45> by Triskavanski »