Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Errata => Topic started by: BrysenBlue on <06-07-16/0816:27>
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I realize I am just 'one customer" but unless we are provided with a price guide for the animals in Howling Shadows within the next month, I will no longer support Shadowrun. It would take less than an hour to bang together a list and upload a PDF. There is no excuse. I purchased this book and I do not have costs or availability for any of the content.
I do not want to buy another book, I do not want to go to another edition. I want an actual price and availability guide for the material in the book that I paid for.
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For what it's worth, Wakshaani (one of the writers) made a comment on this on Reddit:
For the record, this price/availability's mentioned in every thread, everywhere. Which is kind of odd to me as it's only been seen once before, while all other critterbooks were, well, Monster Manuals. GM tools, so costs didn't matter.
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But by thunder, if people want to play critterhandlers, who am I to say otherwise?
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It'll obviously be listed for a FAQ, but I'll see if we can't churn something out sooner, if only in an unofficial way, ASAP.
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/4l4wdg/fixing_howling_shadows/
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Blue, join the screaming crowd right next to the rest of us bashing ourselves bloody against the ivory tower that's Catalyst HQ.
They
Don't
Care
About
Us
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Just curious, are people looking to have trained (para-, techno-) critters to bring with them on runs? Or is this just a matter of wanting cool pets, for colour?
(I'm just puzzled by the uproar, because out of the top ten things I wanted out of Howling Shadows, critter prices wouldn't have been on the list. Heck, if I'd stretched to fill a top twenty list I still don't think critter prices would have been on the list. Possibly because I've never seen a game that had pet prices unless they were a) the equivalent of vehicles and drones (horses to ride around on, guard dogs for your estate, etc), or the 'cost' was in rules currency not game-world currency, using side-kick rules (something that admittedly SR doesn't have -- and which might have been on my hypothetical top ten list).
That so many people feel that THIS is Catalyst's biggest fault has just left me confused. Was it somewhere promised that we'd be able to buy critters, and it wasn't delivered on, or something?
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For what it's worth, Wakshaani (one of the writers) made a comment on this on Reddit:
For the record, this price/availability's mentioned in every thread, everywhere. Which is kind of odd to me as it's only been seen once before, while all other critterbooks were, well, Monster Manuals. GM tools, so costs didn't matter.
.
But by thunder, if people want to play critterhandlers, who am I to say otherwise?
.
It'll obviously be listed for a FAQ, but I'll see if we can't churn something out sooner, if only in an unofficial way, ASAP.
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/4l4wdg/fixing_howling_shadows/
wait, So all other critter books with the exception of one had no prices? So in other words the lack of prices isn't some mistake or incompetence but pretty much par for the course for shadowrun animal guilds? In that case I think some people are now officially complaining just to complain.
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I think the outcry is more so due to there being information that modifies critter costs while there being no costs for the critters. There's an implied cost that seemly didn't find it's way in the book. Catalyst has done poorly with Shadowrun merchandise lately. This is just comes across as a big ball drop.
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Hmmm the Running Wild in SR4A HAD a Critter Price List
( in the German Wildwechsel ist at Page 43, seperated in Normal Animals and Paracritter )
So Wakshaani is wrong with that
I get the Feeling the good Guy is not as ....aware of the 4A rules and contents ( :) )
The complaint, I feel ,is aboutthe Answers of JMH in the Twitterlink.
because the Crunch in Howling Shadows clearly indicate a Critter Price/availiability List
and to say that there has never been any Intention to produce such a list is contrary to that.
>>> Just curious, are people looking to have trained (para-, techno-) critters to bring with them on runs? Or is this just a matter of wanting cool pets, for colour?
in my case both
riding on a Horse in a Wilderness Run or seeing through the Eyes of a Pet Falcon in the Sky or Fighting alongside to Armored Wolfes or just breeding Housecats or Hellhounds for some Money
are all possibiliies that some of my Chars don't want to miss
He who likes to Dance with Animals
Medicinemna
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Just curious, are people looking to have trained (para-, techno-) critters to bring with them on runs? Or is this just a matter of wanting cool pets, for colour?
(I'm just puzzled by the uproar, because out of the top ten things I wanted out of Howling Shadows, critter prices wouldn't have been on the list. Heck, if I'd stretched to fill a top twenty list I still don't think critter prices would have been on the list. Possibly because I've never seen a game that had pet prices unless they were a) the equivalent of vehicles and drones (horses to ride around on, guard dogs for your estate, etc), or the 'cost' was in rules currency not game-world currency, using side-kick rules (something that admittedly SR doesn't have -- and which might have been on my hypothetical top ten list).
That so many people feel that THIS is Catalyst's biggest fault has just left me confused. Was it somewhere promised that we'd be able to buy critters, and it wasn't delivered on, or something?
I would like trained animals. But I also want to steal animals from a zoo and sell them on the black market. My character currently lives in a W-Zone and has to hunt to live for his "Gone Native" lifestyle. So I figured for some extra nuyen I could catch and trap a few critters and sell them. Only, there are no prices listed and no availability so I have no way of addressing this.
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wait, So all other critter books with the exception of one had no prices? So in other words the lack of prices isn't some mistake or incompetence but pretty much par for the course for shadowrun animal guilds? In that case I think some people are now officially complaining just to complain.
Well, in my opinion his statement is a bit of an exaggeration. As far as I know there's only really been three dedicated critter books before Howling Shadows; Paranormal Animals of North America (1st Edition), Paranormal Animals of Europe (2nd Edition), and Running Wild (4th Edition). I'd have to check my shelves to be sure, but stating that "all" books before Running Wild didn't have cost tables is... well, a little off-putting, in my personal opinion.
And I for one don't think it's a non-issue; previous editions aside, if there's one thing I as a GM miss from 5th it's more concrete rules information. How much does it actually cost to install security cameras in a 4 story building? What kind of wages are normal for PR1 to PR6 NPCs? How much extra does a wage mage cost?
I think there is absolutely room for more nuanced rules that helps a GM along instead of, as I'm currently doing, just guesstimating a whole heck of a lot.
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For what it's worth we will be addressing this issue as part of the Mission's FAQ and we will be basing it on Running Wild, but it will be a few weeks at least if not July before it get's posted since we are off to Origins next week.
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My first character was a Skunk Shaman, I understood when they didn't put skunk stats in Howling, I will deal with that. But no base cost?
I honestly expected one of the freelancers to fix it up immediately, just to help out the community. I know its not a lot of work. It would take no time at all, but I don't want to do it for myself. I want it in an "official" capacity, so one particular player in our group won't bellyache and nitpick over it.
I don't intend to be a "loud outraged voice" as that gets nowhere, but in a month if at the very least I do not have a price for the stuff in the book I just purchased I will be upset. They have a few different references to modifying the base costs, but no base cost. Closest we have is the costs listed in Chrome Flesh. And it doesn't mention normal critters, just chimera and its a broad range. So far from satisfactory.
When all is said and done, if we do not have this addressed within a month I am just going to stop buying Shadowrun products. There are other games and we can continue to use the material we have already purchased. I'd understand if it was something obscure (like not having the skunk or rabbit, etc.) but there is just no excuse for this and no excuse for it not having been addressed yet.
Seriously, its as easy as making a list and then writing an availability number and a nuyen cost. Done.
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For what it's worth we will be addressing this issue as part of the Mission's FAQ and we will be basing it on Running Wild, but it will be a few weeks at least if not July before it get's posted since we are off to Origins next week.
Thanks for the response. Not trying to bust your balls here, but essentially the GM isnt going to let us use anything in this book without prices and availability to roll against. So I just dropped $30 on a book I can't use and I'm pretty annoyed.
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For what it's worth we will be addressing this issue as part of the Mission's FAQ and we will be basing it on Running Wild, but it will be a few weeks at least if not July before it get's posted since we are off to Origins next week.
Thanks for the response. Not trying to bust your balls here, but essentially the GM isnt going to let us use anything in this book without prices and availability to roll against. So I just dropped $30 on a book I can't use and I'm pretty annoyed.
your not busting anything of mine ;)
but please remember that while many people see the Missions FAQ as "gospel" the CDT and by extension the Missions FAQ is volunteer driven and therefore not truly official but we do what we can to provide a comprehensive game environment ... we are essentially just the GM by committee to a few thousand players
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I would also suggest not getting mad at the freelancers if they can't get one out, they might get in trouble for doing it if the higher ups aren't ok with it.
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I don't know how Catalyst works, but if they'd be upset about one of the freelancers that worked on the book giving us a table with essential gaming information on it, then I would call into question their leadership. It is not like I (we) are demanding a paragrpah or more content, just the prices that are referenced throughout the book and do not appear.
If that is too much to ask, this isn't a company I am comfortable lending my financial support to.
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I speak for myself alone here. My statements are not condoned by CGL. I don't think I'm going to say anything bad, but I want it clear that I own these statements and they're not, nor should they be construed to be, in any way the policy or beliefs of Catalyst Game Labs.
I honestly expected one of the freelancers to fix it up immediately, just to help out the community.
Working on it, actually, but you seem to think that writing for Shadowrun is all any of us do. This is not, in fact, the case.
I base this assertion on the following:
I know its not a lot of work. It would take no time at all, but I don't want to do it for myself.
See, here's where you're wrong on a number of levels. It's freaking time-consuming to put this thing together. The research alone to find appropriate costs for exotic animals in unbelievable, since they vary wildly. Then you have to figure out how the existing exotic critter compares to the paracritters in SR, and then make some adjustments. Occasionally, the odd Wild-Ass Guess is needed.
You'd be amazed at what mundane guard dogs in the real world can conceivably cost, as a for-instance. Pet-quality Doberman pup from a reputable breeder? Starting at $1,000. Show quality? North of $2K. And on and on.
Exotics...okay. A Bengal tiger cub will cost you north of $3K, depending on the dealer. You can expect to spend in the neighborhood of $60K in meat to feed one on an annual basis (assuming a price for beef of $3.87/lb, and an average 40 lbs daily consumption). That's according to one source; other sources put the cost of the cub closer to $10K. I still don't know if those are show-quality cats. Yes, there are Bengal tiger shows. I didn't know that either.
It's not as simple or as quick as you want it to be.
I want it in an "official" capacity, so one particular player in our group won't bellyache and nitpick over it.
That sounds like a quality-control issue at your table. It might not seem like the optimal solution to the current generation, but house-rules are as old as the hobby itself, and if your player needs everything in his games to be "official," then he might need to find another hobby.
Seriously, its as easy as making a list and then writing an availability number and a nuyen cost. Done.
*snrk* You clearly have not done anything like this and tried to get it right.
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For anyone interested, here is my quick'n dirty solution (made in 20 minutes)
| Animal | AVAIL | COST |
| Bear | 16F | 6,500„ |
| Chimpanzee | 8R | 25,000„ |
| Eagle | 12 | 5,000„ |
| Elephant | 12F | 55,000„ |
| Giraffe | 16R | 8,000„ |
| Snake | 10F | 3,500„ |
| Great Cat | 12R | 5,000„ |
| Wolf | 12R | 1000„ |
| Barracuda | 8R | 250„ |
| Dolphin | 12R | 10,000„ |
| Sea Lion | 12R | 6,000„ |
| Squid | 8R | 250„ |
| Killer Whale | 18F | 100,000„ |
| Horse | 4 | 2000„ |
| Dog | - | 100„ |
| Domestic Cat | - | 50„ |
| Cockroach | - | 1„ |
| Crow | - | 25„ |
| Ferret | - | 250„ |
| Raccoon | - | 25„ |
| Rat | - | 25„ |
| Spider | - | 100„ |
| ENHANCEMENT | AVAIL | COST |
| Cloned | +4 | x10 base cost |
| Cosmetic | +2 | 5,000„ |
| Flore-Pet | +2 | 800„ |
| Hypo-Allergenic | +2 | 1,200„ |
| Luci-Pet | +2 | 1,000„ |
| Munchkin | +1 | 500„ |
| Retro | +3 | 10,000„ |
For the prices of awakened critters, multiply the price of it's closes mundane relative with 10 times it's Aggro Index
For Availability add Aggro Index, rounded up to normal Availability, and increase - to R and R to F
Example: Bandit, Aggro Index 2.1 = 21*25=525„, AVA 3R
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only 100 for a dog? what breed of dog? just one price when there are literally hunders of breeds of dogs with prices that should range for 100 to a thousands seems like lazy rule writing to me.
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What part of "quick'n dirty" didn't you understand? ;)
Also most of those prices are taken from 4e
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....oO( and here I thought only Germans aren't happy when they can't complain...)
;)
with a musing Dance
Medicineman
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What part of "quick'n dirty" didn't you understand? ;)
Also most of those prices are taken from 4e
just trying to give you armchair developers a taste of your own medicine . if Catalysis put something like that out even as "Quick and dirty" there would half a dozen threads of complaints
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Thing is, you picked a very bad example to poke holes into, since this is actually taken from the 4e rules. ::)
The 100„ are the base price and you are of course at liberty to buy a pure bred with a documented lineage back to the 18th century for ten to one hundred times the price.
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For what it's worth we will be addressing this issue as part of the Mission's FAQ and we will be basing it on Running Wild, but it will be a few weeks at least if not July before it get's posted since we are off to Origins next week.
Not to dis on your contribution, but once upon a time Errata and Missions FAQ were two distinct things. Now there's only one and it's doing what little it can to act as the other.
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*snrk* You clearly have not done anything like this and tried to get it right.
Actually, I have. I know exactly how difficult it is. But I also know that you are over-thinking it. You don't need exact cost of these animals in real life. All you need to do is set a measuring bar, decide if a creature is more or less valuable than a Ford Americar and by how much. Then list availability accordingly. I understand there are additional costs and all this other stuff, but the beauty of the lifestyle system in Shadowrun is that you do not need to micromanage how many packs of Gum your troll eats in a month. Have creatures with a high body rating increase lifestyle cost and treat pets as a "life-style" purchase. It really is that simple.
For example, a Dog costs 0 modification points for your lifestyle. While Anything with a body of say... 8 or higher (I would need to check the stats but I think 7-8ish is around where it starts) costs 1 and requires a nuyen cost or a lifestyle of High+.
Jack has shown what he can do in 20 minutes, that is all it would have taken. If the prices were a bit off (like "Dog" costing 100 nuyen, what about purebreds, etc.) that doesn't matter. Chalk it up to how easily available or how rare that critter is in the far-flung future of 2075.
As for what you said about "the assumption that this is all the freelance writers do" well, no. Actually, hard to believe, but I too am a freelance writer. I have been going on about 10 or so years now. It is my primary source of income. Gaming is my hobby. What I assume (because its an expectation of myself) is a certain level of quality. This is clearly an issue and an easy one to rectify no less.
Again, I am not looking to be an asshole. I'm sorry for the "tough love" but in this line of work the quality and standard of your work is more important than your resume. Fortunately, you're not going to be panned for charging 3000 nuyen for a tiger when clearly it should be "15,000 nuyen" (said in his most pretentious voice) but you will cop criticism for something essential NOT being in the product.
Chrome Flesh needs to be the standard. The story content in it was better, the book was organized better and it was easy to navigate. I have not yet taken the time to check the crossover of the creative teams, but given the high quality of Chrome Flesh I was surprised when Howling Shadows had so many mistakes. I can overlook reprinting the same art asset a couple of times, but give us everything essential.
Blaming our anal retentive friend for wanting to "go by the book" isn't productive. He's not a bad dude.
In other news, I got this message:
Thanks for playing Shadowrun, and thanks for your passion for the game. I hope this response will be useful without being too long.
The first thing I need to say is that while I certainly would rather having people buy and play Shadowrun, I can't make changes simply because someone says they will stop buying products if I have a reason for doing what I did and keeping things the way they are. Which I do.
Before explaining that reason, I'll note that a small table with availability and costs of ten mundane critters has been inserted into the book; it should be put into an update for PDF users soon. It has a brief version of the more full explanation I'll offer here.
And that explanation is this: Including cost and availability for every critter goes against what I want a critter book to be. I do not think paranormal animals should be available for purchase. I realize there are people who disagree with me, but there it is. Look at it this way--how difficult is it, in our world, to get illegal guns? Or drugs? Neither is especially difficult, if you are willing to take a few risks. Now, how would you go about obtaining a lion? Are they commonly sold on street corners? Or anywhere?
Animals are much more of a nuisance than weapons when it comes to illegal deals. Animals need upkeep, leave messes, and are prone to attack when you don't expect it, all of which are things weapons don't do. Animals also tend to be larger than weapons and more difficult to transport. They are just plain way less marketable, even on the black market. Now take a hellhound, which is as sturdy as a lion, stronger, and breathes fire. If a lion is really hard to find--to the point of near-impossibility--then hellhounds and their ilk aren't going to be commonly sold.
But beyond that, there's the question of what I want the book to be. I want it to be a massive collection of plot hooks for player and GM alike, where the GM might send players on a critter hunt, or the players see a critter they would like and take the initiative to go get one. If the book turns into a shopping catalogue, then the missions can often be accomplished through calling a contact and being patient. Too many chances for adventure would be lost, and that's not how I wanted the book to be.
So that's why the book is the way it is. What you do with that book and my explanation is entirely up to you, but I hope that whatever you decide, you have fun in your gaming.
Jason H.
To which, I replied:
So, you think its perfectly reasonable to be able to buy an antibalastic missile... but you cannot buy a lion on the black market?
With all due respect, this should simply be covered by a high availability rating or making something F.
The fact that they are difficult to obtain means they are valuable. Especially things like lions, tigers and sharks, all of which are commonly seen as status symbols.
In fact, right now I can make a phone call and aquire a tiger cub if I wanted to own one. Maybe this is a bit different in the US (I am in Australia) but the illegal trafficking of exotic animals is a big part of the black market.
More to the point, if a group of players capture and sedate a paracritter, rather than just killing it without a price listing we cannot "fairly" judge how much it can be sold for.
My "complaint" is that I just spent $30 buying a book that my GM will not let us use because it does not have costs for the animals and has references for base cost modifiers.
I am glad to hear there will be at least 10 prices listed, but it should be noted that you are not only required to give us plot hooks but game statistics. The purpose of which is to resolve disputes at the gaming table. You are not a novelist, you are an RPG Writer and these statistics are important.
You can easily cover the "rarity" and difficulty to find these creatures with astoundingly high prices and extremely high availability ratings.
I think (and I am not trying to come off as a pretentious gamer asshole) but I honestly think you do not realize just how big the market for exotic animals really is. There is an entire subculture of people (wealthy people) who will buy a bear, people who would buy wild hellhounds (to breed them and raise their pups).
I'm not trying to bust your balls, it is just when I buy an RPG supplement, I am buying a tool. I do not need rules for people with different blood-types or obscure things, but the value of creatures in the game are important.
I'm not so fucked up as to want to know how much I can sell "Sally" the prepubescent elf to a pedophile ring, but if I can buy the Lurrsen Mobius, I'd like to be able to go full Noah and buy some Giraffes for it son. Or at least know how much I can sell a Giraffe for to a dealer or eco terrorists who want to "Buy back" the animal's freedom (something else which happens quite regularly).
Thank you to Jack Spade for his efforts. This is a game, its fun, and something as simple as what he "knocked together in 20 minutes" is all we are asking for. It does not need to be perfect or without fault. No one is going to judge anyone if the prices and availability are a bit wonky, so long as we don't end up with a situation like "Tiger, Availability 47, 37,500,000 nuyen."
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I have to agree with BrysenBlue on this; prices for everything from a t-shirt costing 5„ to a VTOL aircraft costing tens of millions are important because it sets the expectation of value. If we know that an Ares Predator costs X nuyen in Seattle on the black market, but Y nuyen in South Africa because guns are more accessible, this gives us an important insight into economics.
If all we know about animals is that they may or may not be rare and/or of some value, we have very little to go on in terms of using those plot hooks that you've just sold us.
And I wholeheartedly agree with the statement about what my expectations are when I buy a sourcebook for an RPG like Shadowrun; unless it says "Setting" or "Fiction" on the front, I expect rules. When the book in question is called a "Core Critter Handbook", I for one expect fully fleshed out rules and not "just" story hooks. Heck, even most of the location source books in previous edition had information about the local variations on the core rules, like the difference in price for weapons and ammunition, or changes to bribes and legality ratings.
To my mind, the biggest issue Catalyst has right now is failing to set and meet expectations. The quality of the product is all over the map (I agree that Chrome Flesh is a high point of 5th Edition, but books like Run & Gun, Data Trails, and Street Grimoire were in my opinion huge let-downs), and the commitment to fulfilling past promises (especially where Errata is concerned) just doesn't seem to be there. Even if the intent is there, there is no action, and that's not a good thing when you're trying to sell a product to customers.
In this case, an updated PDF with a 10-entry table isn't enough to convince me to buy the book when I can convert Running Wild just fine on my own...
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Also, we already have a book that assumes you can acquire animal friends, and even has fairly extensive additional rules in the form of the Attune Animal ritual, yet it has been deemed inappropriate for the critter book to include rules for acquiring the animal friend you want to bond? We have a price on pet food, rules for animal training, modifiers for genetically engineered animals, but not a price tag on dogs?
One of my characters right now is a Mongolian druid. Among other things, she practices falconry. This does not seem outlandish in the context of a game where one of the core character archetypes is the shaman, a magic user attuned to the natural world who draws power from respect for nature, 'cuz to me, that seems like a core archetype that is naturally drawn to and inclined to work with animals. Even some street shaman on the streets of the Redmond barrens, I expect to see walking alongside some mutt she fed some scraps, working together to get by in the world. The fact that I have to improvise so much to get my feathered friend when the critter book is in my hands is very disappointing, the crux of it being the cost table.
I want to like this book. I really do. I've been looking forward to it since it was announced because I so wanted to use it in running a druid, but the more I try and use it, the more disappointed I become.
Also, making my druid who's into falconry is when I realized... no Merlin hawk. That makes me sad. I like Merlin hawks.
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I did a quick analysis of the contents of the book, specifically looking for the word "cost" and parsing through where that word shows up.
- Results 1-7 are near the beginning in opening descriptions. Mostly in reference to costs of certain things (like how drones are "costly" or there is a better cost/benefit ratio).
- Result 8 is the mention that supernatural animals cost about ten times as much as mundane ones.
- Result 9/10 are back to some descriptive text
- Result 11-13 are in the Genetic Enhancements Sidebar(s)
Result 14 is the word "costume"- Result 15 is in the description of the Devil Jack Diamond fish.
- Result 16 is in the description of the Meistersinger
- Result 17 is in the ShadowTalk of the Unicorn
Result 18/19 is the word "Costas" in the description of ChironResult 20 is the word "costumed" in the description of Jarl- Result 21 is in the description of Preta
- Result 22 is in the opening text of Technocritters
- Result 23 is in the game information of technocritters, but it is describing their battle tactics.
- Result 24-29 is in the Drake chapter, talking about Karma costs
- Result 30-31 is in Drakes talking about costs of using powers and gear for drakes
- Result 32 is in the ShadowTalk at the beginning of Building man's best friend
- Result 33-35 is describing the cost of Chimerics "triple the base creature cost plus twenty-five percent"
- Result 36 is describing the cost of warforms.
- Result 37 is in ShadowTalk
- Result 38 is descriptive text in the Biodrones
- Results 39-42 are in the statblocks of the Biodrones on pages 180-181, which have listed costs (and availabilities)
- Result 43 is in the critter special augmentations sidebar
- Result 44 is in Special Biodrone cyberware table
- Result 45 "Juvenile critters cost twice as much as fully grown ones" pg 184
- Result 46/47 are in relation to Critter Gear and armor
There you have it, not a long list. About 43 appearances of the word "cost" or other forms of the same word. Not a lot, really, but I'm sure there are other phrasing as well. But there is a very notable use. Five times (at least), the costs of an animal is directly referenced, 4 of these cases it is referencing a special kind of animal as being a multiplier on the normal cost of said animal. Which means without any costs for the base critters, all of these instances are just poorly edited and blatantly wrong. Four Times, in four different chapters, this isn't a single instance of something being added accidentally and overlooked.
As far as getting unique animals goes, of course there are ways to get animals. People do it all the time, right now. Between circuses using trained animals. Zoos being a business (meaning all of the animals are bought and sold), and not just a charity. And private residents owning exotic pets (I mean, Mike Tyson really did own a Tiger). They might be hard to get, and you might need to know the right people to get them through, but it is possible. Heck, just make an entry about buying and selling animals in the same way they did the high fashion armor from Run & Gun. That entry made it sound like the only way to get high fashion armor was by knowing this one particular contact and getting it through him. But fact of the matter is, if someone or some company owns an animal in any capacity, be it as a pet dog or a trained hellhound used for guarding a compound, there is a way for that animal to be bought, traded, and sold.
And the icing on the cake is the Biodrones. There are four example biodrones with full stats and work-ups, including how much they cost and the availability to get them. This means it is listed out, how hard it is to get a Cybertooth Tiger, which I'm just assuming is an augmented Tiger, but an un-augmented Tiger should be beyond the scope of the availability rules? Yeah, right.
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I'm sorry but Jason Hardy's twitter response and his email response to Brysen just smacks of Cover Your Ass.
It's clear from the many references in the book that costs for critters was anticipated but never implemented.
This is just another of the many examples of Shadowrun's poor line editing.
It feels as though there is no one actually paying attention and / or caring to direct and oversee the freelancers in a competent manner.
I don't know what other explanation there can be besides this.
Lack of errata after 2+ years just sends the message that Catalyst cares so little for their customer base that they can't be bothered to address their concerns.
We're all chumps at this point if we buy anything else Catalyst sells unless and until they decide to finally issue errata and fix the PDFs their horrific process turned out.
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Well, that is the nature of capitalism. Shadowrun has changed hands before and we can just stop buying and wait for it to change hands again. Or they can provide us with the basics. I don't know about the errata (other than this I've not encountered anything glaring or disruptive to gameplay). When all is said and done, if they don't provide you with a product you want... don't buy it.
That is how I handle things anyway. What did Jason's Twitter response say?
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Also, we already have a book that assumes you can acquire animal friends, and even has fairly extensive additional rules in the form of the Attune Animal ritual, yet it has been deemed inappropriate for the critter book to include rules for acquiring the animal friend you want to bond? We have a price on pet food, rules for animal training, modifiers for genetically engineered animals, but not a price tag on dogs?
While I'm not one of the incensed forum-goers on this matter, what Blue Rose has mentioned is why I find it irritating that there's no animal prices. I mean, the core book has stats for dogs but no price-- That's fine. At that moment in time, there was only a poorly defined Animal Handling skill, so prices on something as vague as "dog" was unnecessary. But as Blue Rose and Kiirnodel have spelled out, Howling Shadows (and to a much lesser extent, Street Grimoire) seems to be written with the mechanics of a player owning and managing a pet as more that a narrative object.
Back when everything else was vague, it made total sense for prices to be unneeded. But now everything is spelled out, making the lack of base prices for animals seem like a hole. Especially with things like Chimeric modifications specifically multiplying the "base creature cost". What's three times an unknown amount?
As a side note, Warforms don't seem to be given a price... Which, since they're explicitly made for businesses... I don't see how they wouldn't have a price. The current motto of 5th edition is "Everything Has A Price". Though to be fair it never meant only nuyen.
However it looks that they will be adding a price for ten mundane critters, which will be acceptable. Should be enough for any players of mine to have their own badass animal companions, magic or otherwise.
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The critter handbook is not just the SR Version of DnD“s Monster Manual, and since there are rules for price modifikations in it, it oviously wasn“t intended this way, either. It“s hard to understand how something so important could have been forgotten, let alone omitted as a design choice.
It“s not that we need prices for every critter in the book. Of course there“s no market for meistersingers.
But for dogs, cats, horses? Also, if some of the paracritters like hellhounds, barghests and the like are bred and sold as security options, that sounds like a pretty damn market to me.
There are new (and well done!) rules for training and equipping pets. There are old rules for bonding with animals. That“s all for naught if there“s no way to obtain them. At both my tables, players have been asking for the prices for mundane and awakened pets as well. I staved them off for the day when the new critter book will come out and provides rules (which we got) and prices.
If it is possible to cobble together prices, availabilities and lifestyle costs for the most important kind oft pets in less than 2 hours, then why not do it via an official Errata? And if, for the reasons Patrick explained, there“s more to it, isn“t that even more of a reason to include these informations in the book instead of shoving that part back to the GMs to houserule it?
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>>> If it is possible to cobble together prices, availabilities and lifestyle costs for the most important kind oft pets in less than 2 hours, then why not do it via an official Errata?
it could be done in 10 Minutes by taking the already existing list from Running Wild.
According to Mr.Hardy there will be a List (a tiny List of only 10 Animals) but it's going to take a while
( but I WILL use the complete List from Running Wild)
with a 10 Minute Dance
Medicineman
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I'd suggest changing those prices a bit, Medicineman; Running Wild didn't seem to understand the value of high quality, endangered horses, for example (pegasi are ridiculously cheap, in other words).
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I'd suggest changing those prices a bit, Medicineman; Running Wild didn't seem to understand the value of high quality, endangered horses, for example (pegasi are ridiculously cheap, in other words).
Thanks for the Advice
When the Time comes both I and my GM will check the List and change it if necessary
But ,to Hardy's delight, I/ we will also do what he wants us to do, steal big Animals and make a Run to obtain the rarer Animals
But If one of my Chars needs a Horse,Dog or a Cat for Fluff, we will stick to the former Ed's Table to keep it simple
with a simpler Dance
Medicineman
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That's where you stick it to the man by stealing extra animals and sell them for a profit.
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Well, sometimes a Runner's got to do what a Runner's got to do. ;) :D
in the german Running Wild Pegasus added a few Pages to include the (famous ) Hagenbeck Zoo.
I never got a Chance to use that in SR4A, maybe I'll persuade one of my two SR5 GMs to use the Material...?
With a Dance in the Zoo
Medicineman
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Please do not judge the freelancers on this. Asking them to "whip up a table" is unreasonable no matter how little effort or time it would take. You are asking them to do their job, from which they derive their living, for free. That is bad business, and it is wildly unreasonable to put them in a position where they need to refuse day after day.
The issue is that Catalyst is not paying a writer to do the errata, and they are not doing that because at this point, it would not generate any additional revenue, and they no longer need to satisfy the customers asking for it as they have already invested as much money into the product as they can by purchasing it. I am not justifying this behaviour, as we can reasonably assume this will result in some lost customers, but I reserve my judgement on the matter because they certainly have someone with more expertise than me analyzing these matters and the cost/benefit projections and determining it costs more to pay for erratas than it does to simply ignore them.
At any rate, I sympathise that the book does not provide what you were hoping. I share your disappointment that the erratas have seemingly stopped forever, and I feel particularly betrayed at the various promises of upcoming erratas only to find that they go unfulfilled month after month. It seems that you cannot expect the support that you hope for, and, quite frankly, deserve.
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The issue is that Catalyst is not paying a writer to do the errata,
I'm going to snip that little bit out of the quote, because people seem to keep forgetting to make a distinction between Catalyst and the freelancers (who don't have a lot of control once items are turned in). I've seen the writers take a lot of flak since the launch of SR5, but the point of failure seems to be up above them. I've lost count of the number of posts where a writer stated they had something a certain way, and it got changed after they sent their work in. Sure the writers make mistakes, they're human after all, but the major problems seem to be coming from higher up. Everyone needs to keep that in mind when frustration sets in.
*Edited to fix stupid auto-"correct." >:( *
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Please do not judge the freelancers on this. Asking them to "whip up a table" is unreasonable no matter how little effort or time it would take. You are asking them to do their job, from which they derive their living, for free. That is bad business, and it is wildly unreasonable to put them in a position where they need to refuse day after day.
The issue is that Catalyst is not paying a writer to do the errata, and they are not doing that because at this point, it would not generate any additional revenue, and they no longer need to satisfy the customers asking for it as they have already invested as much money into the product as they can by purchasing it. I am not justifying this behavior, as we can reasonably assume this will result in some lost customers, but I reserve my judgement on the matter because they certainly have someone with more expertise than me analyzing these matters and the cost/benefit projections and determining it costs more to pay for erratas than it does to simply ignore them.
At any rate, I sympathize that the book does not provide what you were hoping. I share your disappointment that the erratas have seemingly stopped forever, and I feel particularly betrayed at the various promises of upcoming erratas only to find that they go unfulfilled month after month. It seems that you cannot expect the support that you hope for, and, quite frankly, deserve.
I have not had any problem with any of the other books we own, not really. However, Howling Shadows is a big disappointment. The writer did not give us physical descriptions for a lot of the meta-critters (and I cannot emphasize how much that has been a pain in the ass) and the minimal art means that we are forced to go back to earlier editions to get a glimpse of what is what.
It has been a running gag in my group that half the players have the Predigest Quality against Gnomes for no good damn reason. I personally would mock this but my character is running alongside four other people who hate Gnome-kind and want them eradicated from the planet. All for their own reasons. Now, when I saw G-Nome in the book I knew that would be a talking point for my group. And I personally thought the name G-Nome was incredibly witty. However, after reading the book and what he has to say at length I have decided that I have more love for Clockwork than G-Nome.
He is extremely pretentious and talks about all the critters in the book like they are poor benevolent creatures. Like, he does not recognize that nature is a viscous and unforgiving thing. It is kill or be killed. He sounds like someone out of the 1960's Doctor Dolittle film and I do not like that he is our primary source of information -- especially since he does not even tell me what the Merrow are awakened from or what they freaking look-like.
The writer behind the book either did it intentionally (to make an insufferable know-it all Gnome EVO-hipster) or it was poorly thought out. I love nature and the environment. I love a lot of the ideas in the book but I do not like how they are presented to the reader, in many places it is assumed you already know a lot of this stuff and it lacks the natural charm of a lot of the earlier critter books.
There is an old conversation discussing the Juggernaut's fear aura, and runners not being 100% certain if it was a critter power or if its just natural for people to be scared of something that large. That will stay with me forever, but Howling Shadows has nothing like that in it. Instead, the Juggernaut's critter description talks about its digestive system and treats it like this poor misunderstood beast. There's no talk about the aftermath or the danger, its almost like it is trying to justify its destructive behavior.
But the missing table is the real crime, everything else I can forgive as artistic taste. But the missing table is what has upset me. There is a lot in the book that will be useful and fun and it was neat finding out that they worked out how to cyber up animals without driving them nuts (finally). I mean, who doesn't want a cool cybered horse?
But I'm sorry to say, if G-Nome comes near Boston he's toast. Brysen Blue will look the other way and team disappear him. I'll keep them in check for gnomes I don't know because I'm staunchly opposed to their extinction agenda, but G-Nome bugged me and as far as I am concerned he no longer has a place in the gene pool.
EDIT: After talking it through with one of the other players, it appears we will be going to him. Does anyone have any "canonical" information on G-Nome before we make him dead? Is this the first time he's posted any data online?
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It has been a running gag in my group that half the players have the Predigest Quality against Gnomes for no good damn reason. I personally would mock this but my character is running alongside four other people who hate Gnome-kind and want them eradicated from the planet. All for their own reasons. Now, when I saw G-Nome in the book I knew that would be a talking point for my group. And I personally thought the name G-Nome was incredibly witty. However, after reading the book and what he has to say at length I have decided that I have more love for Clockwork than G-Nome.
He is extremely pretentious and talks about all the critters in the book like they are poor benevolent creatures. Like, he does not recognize that nature is a viscous and unforgiving thing. It is kill or be killed. He sounds like someone out of the 1960's Doctor Dolittle film and I do not like that he is our primary source of information -- especially since he does not even tell me what the Merrow are awakened from or what they freaking look-like.
The writer behind the book either did it intentionally (to make an insufferable know-it all Gnome EVO-hipster) or it was poorly thought out. I love nature and the environment. I love a lot of the ideas in the book but I do not like how they are presented to the reader, in many places it is assumed you already know a lot of this stuff and it lacks the natural charm of a lot of the earlier critter books.
There is an old conversation discussing the Juggernaut's fear aura, and runners not being 100% certain if it was a critter power or if its just natural for people to be scared of something that large. That will stay with me forever, but Howling Shadows has nothing like that in it. Instead, the Juggernaut's critter description talks about its digestive system and treats it like this poor misunderstood beast. There's no talk about the aftermath or the danger, its almost like it is trying to justify its destructive behavior.
But the missing table is the real crime, everything else I can forgive as artistic taste. But the missing table is what has upset me. There is a lot in the book that will be useful and fun and it was neat finding out that they worked out how to cyber up animals without driving them nuts (finally). I mean, who doesn't want a cool cybered horse?
But I'm sorry to say, if G-Nome comes near Boston he's toast. Brysen Blue will look the other way and team disappear him. I'll keep them in check for gnomes I don't know because I'm staunchly opposed to their extinction agenda, but G-Nome bugged me and as far as I am concerned he no longer has a place in the gene pool.
EDIT: After talking it through with one of the other players, it appears we will be going to him. Does anyone have any "canonical" information on G-Nome before we make him dead? Is this the first time he's posted any data online?
I feel like basically none of this part has anything to do with errata or super serious discussions about super serious business problems (or whatever else this thread is meant to cover). You'd likely be better served asking this sort of thing -- about the in-game stuff -- in a different thread, where folks are looking to just discuss the product and help with your game in a more fun, less meta, way.
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Hmm... A player of mine wants to make an adept, making use of the animal related stuff.
But the question is... Without a price guide, how am I to know what's something his character could have?
I know that what kind of animal he'd have would be different than "what animals can a person purchase", but it's like how your character's starting gear isn't specifically all stuff they personally purchased with their own money. Upgrades from sponsors, military upgrades, etc etc. Hence why purchases still need justification.
Without an availability/price listing I'm not sure what animals my player could start with. Cats and dogs? Sure, of course. A snake? You could probably have found one... Okay, what about a hellhound? Well, they're not unheard of in the shadows... But could I just have his character have one without paying anything for it? What about something like a cougar? Certainly not in Seattle, but what about if he's a Native in the NAN, where such an animal could be encountered if one traveled in the right places in his past? Or if he found and trained (he is an Adept after all) a Bandit in the city?
I feel like the designers would say "if it's appropriate to the story, you can just give the player one". But why free? That's not fair. Players need to spend contact points even if their story includes characters they know; they need pay for a cyberarm even if their backstory is "and in military training I lost an arm, but they gave me one" and the like. A player can't be Awakened for free just because they have a backstory that says about how they learned magic.
Sadly it... Isn't nice and narrative-only as Jason wants it to be. I'm sorry it's not how you want a critter book to be; it's how it needs to be.
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I feel like basically none of this part has anything to do with errata or super serious discussions about super serious business problems (or whatever else this thread is meant to cover). You'd likely be better served asking this sort of thing -- about the in-game stuff -- in a different thread, where folks are looking to just discuss the product and help with your game in a more fun, less meta, way.
You're not wrong, it was just a random passing thought. That said, you have two pages of super serious stuff and this is what you respond to? C'mon man! lol
For the record though, I don't think this is "super serious" I just wanted my stance clear so I wrote frankly. I mean, its a little thing but since we're "complaining" about "serious" stuff... Howling Shadows didn't have a Jackpoint Login Screen page. So we spent an hour yesterday trawling over the whole book to figure out where the "data" from Howling Shadows was posted "online."
Ironically, its cleared up early on by the first post from Bull in the book but there is no log-in screen like in any of the other books. Its a little detail, but it should probably be included since its been a long standing tradition.
Hmm... A player of mine wants to make an adept, making use of the animal related stuff.
But the question is... Without a price guide, how am I to know what's something his character could have?
I know that what kind of animal he'd have would be different than "what animals can a person purchase", but it's like how your character's starting gear isn't specifically all stuff they personally purchased with their own money. Upgrades from sponsors, military upgrades, etc etc. Hence why purchases still need justification.
Without an availability/price listing I'm not sure what animals my player could start with. Cats and dogs? Sure, of course. A snake? You could probably have found one... Okay, what about a hellhound? Well, they're not unheard of in the shadows... But could I just have his character have one without paying anything for it? What about something like a cougar? Certainly not in Seattle, but what about if he's a Native in the NAN, where such an animal could be encountered if one traveled in the right places in his past? Or if he found and trained (he is an Adept after all) a Bandit in the city?
I feel like the designers would say "if it's appropriate to the story, you can just give the player one". But why free? That's not fair. Players need to spend contact points even if their story includes characters they know; they need pay for a cyberarm even if their backstory is "and in military training I lost an arm, but they gave me one" and the like. A player can't be Awakened for free just because they have a backstory that says about how they learned magic.
Sadly it... Isn't nice and narrative-only as Jason wants it to be. I'm sorry it's not how you want a critter book to be; it's how it needs to be.
This.
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I feel like basically none of this part has anything to do with errata or super serious discussions about super serious business problems (or whatever else this thread is meant to cover). You'd likely be better served asking this sort of thing -- about the in-game stuff -- in a different thread, where folks are looking to just discuss the product and help with your game in a more fun, less meta, way.
You're not wrong, it was just a random passing thought.
Your "random passing thought" was like 85% of your post, and has nothing to do with errata, so I thought I'd gently steer you towards other sections of the forum, where maybe folks would be more likely to help.
That said, you have two pages of super serious stuff and this is what you respond to? C'mon man! lol
I didn't work on Howling Shadows, and I'm not Jason or Randal or anybody higher-up in any position to address any of your concerns. Sorry. I don't comment on stuff I'm not in the right place to comment on.
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No sweat man. No sweat.