Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Turtletron on <09-06-10/1806:28>
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I heard quite a few times about the "Desert Wars" but when I search for info about it, do not seem to find anything. Can someone tell me what it is or tell me where I can find the info?
Thanks a lot
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Desert Wars is a corp sponsored wargame designed to field test and promote new equipment and tactics. It's also used as a proving ground for the corps personal army and as an additional revenue stream (from adds and pay per view). I'm not entirely sure but I think it takes place on a yearly basis in north Africa. Don't know of any books that specifically detail them but they are mentioned in alot of the fiction (I think Argent was a desert wars vet). Hope this helps ;D
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I think it was mentioned the desert wars are played in almost all the deserts around the world with the finals held in Africa.
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And do you think those games were lethal for the players in the same way Urban Brawl is?
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Way more lethal since it actual warfare, if I remember correctly.
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That may be one of the few rare occasions to see AAA corporations fighting with each other in such a visible way.(for the non-shadowrunner/non-corporate people)
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Well, it's not rare since it broadcast on Trideo every season. And is one of the highest ratings shows on the air!
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Tis almost sad if you think about it. Corps blowing each other up for our entertainment, but when they contract a runner and it gets posted all over the news, we don't get any royalties for entertainment. Maybe I should start recording some sim when I take a run, and sell them as training vids...
That could actually be a really cool mission pack. Record Corp runs to use as training vids...hmmm, I can smell the nuyen. Or maybe that is the smoking hole in my head if the corps tag me as the runner...
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Well, either way, you'd make nuyen off the deal. Just that if you get that hole in the head, your family gets the money and you wind up "Mistake Jake!" in the Army training sim.
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The product that came out in was Target: Wastelands.
I would have liked to been given a bigger word count for the Desert Wars but alas it was not to be.
Might have to give Jason a nudge to see if we can get a PDF of Target: Wastelands onto RPGnow. ;D
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The prophecy wants to add, in the SOX Sourcebook there is a hint to something they call "Rad Wars" (basically Desert Wars, but located in the heavily contaminated areas we know as SOX, hence, Rad Wars).
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Way more lethal since it actual warfare, if I remember correctly.
It is indeed real war rather than have massive scale wars over things they fight these smaller wars to settle diferences.
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Tis almost sad if you think about it. Corps blowing each other up for our entertainment, but when they contract a runner and it gets posted all over the news, we don't get any royalties for entertainment. Maybe I should start recording some sim when I take a run, and sell them as training vids...
That could actually be a really cool mission pack. Record Corp runs to use as training vids...hmmm, I can smell the nuyen. Or maybe that is the smoking hole in my head if the corps tag me as the runner...
I have let my group sell doctored footage of their runs (they remove anything that says hey this is us lol)
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The prophecy wants to add, in the SOX Sourcebook there is a hint to something they call "Rad Wars" (basically Desert Wars, but located in the heavily contaminated areas we know as SOX, hence, Rad Wars).
Thats one of them german only books isn't it??
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Thats one of them german only books isn't it??
The prophecy had to recheck, but sadly, yes. Seems like this was only published in german. Shame, its a really great (and pretty fragging deadly) campaign settign.
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Sure is a shame, would have liked to have more info to maybe create a run for my players that would have played in the Desert Wars or something like that. Well, i can still do it, just have to be creative ;D
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Weren't Desert Wars to be covered in the upcoming "War" sourcebook?
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Hmm, wonder what all that book will cover...
Seriously, though, what wars will the book cover? Desert Wars (TM)? The Yucatan conflict?
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Well so far, its got
redacted, and redacted, plus some redacted.. OH and redacted!!!!
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You, sir, are not a nice person :(
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Well so far, its got redacted, and redacted, plus some redacted.. OH and redacted!!!!
If I didn't like you so much, I'd smite your Rep. ;D
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It is indeed real war rather than have massive scale wars over things they fight these smaller wars to settle diferences.
Not sure real wars rules apply there since the major issue might be audience.
These wars might as well have been planned way long before, as might be victories and losses.
Of course, don't think soldiers know it.
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WWF meets Desert Wars?
I think that would work only if there were a McMahon in charge of it all. But, I certainly would never say that you couldn't do that as a GM. ;D
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Well so far, its got redacted, and redacted, plus some redacted.. OH and redacted!!!!
See I need to find a way inside so I too can know things even if they never make it to print.
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WWF meets Desert Wars?
I think that would work only if there were a McMahon in charge of it all. But, I certainly would never say that you couldn't do that as a GM. ;D
That's it, WWF meets Desert Wars.
Actually, find it hard to imagine how it couldn't be. See, two megacorps obsessed with profit, they disagree on some obscure point, and then one says "Hey ! I throw my gloves to your face ! let's meet in the desert, and lose in struggling half our armies, plus our brandnew miltech, it'll be just fine. Don't worry explaining to the board why we found it smart losing billions, it's honor business, they'll understand."
Can't imagine these corporations would do something that doesn't earn them more money than they lose, and the best way to make sure they win more than they lose in a Desert War is to plan the war with their so-called foes.
What if the war isn't photogenic enough ? What if there's no really heroïc battle ? What if a corp win too easily ? Audience may dive.
So why take such a risk ?
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Corps blowing each other up for our entertainment, but when they contract a runner and it gets posted all over the news, we don't get any royalties for entertainment. Maybe I should start recording some sim when I take a run, and sell them as training vids...
You do in Los Angeles...
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WWF meets Desert Wars?
I think that would work only if there were a McMahon in charge of it all. But, I certainly would never say that you couldn't do that as a GM. ;D
That's it, WWF meets Desert Wars.
Actually, find it hard to imagine how it couldn't be. See, two megacorps obsessed with profit, they disagree on some obscure point, and then one says "Hey ! I throw my gloves to your face ! let's meet in the desert, and lose in struggling half our armies, plus our brandnew miltech, it'll be just fine. Don't worry explaining to the board why we found it smart losing billions, it's honor business, they'll understand."
Can't imagine these corporations would do something that doesn't earn them more money than they lose, and the best way to make sure they win more than they lose in a Desert War is to plan the war with their so-called foes.
What if the war isn't photogenic enough ? What if there's no really heroïc battle ? What if a corp win too easily ? Audience may dive.
So why take such a risk ?
Contracts. Maybe 2000 soldiers and 20 tanks get blown up. But if that helps you secure a contract for 20000 soldiers and 200 tanks from some country with to much money and an itchy trigger finger: well placed investment!
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And the casualties are usually nowhere near that high. Advanced medical and cyber technology has seen to that.
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Without searching through unpacked boxes...I am going by memory here.
Desert Wars was more about bragging rights. Competitions were put together with rules governing the size and composition of forces for various scenarios. Rescue the hostage would have a time limit, collateral damage penalties, bonuses for marksmanship, etc.. Being able to claim that Ares new door breaching charge was used by their team that won the Rescue the hostage scenario during the 2072 Desert Wars was seen as its own rewards.
I envision it more as the Military Channel meets the Roman Coliseum. But that is just me and certainly not the only way to run it! ;D
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And the casualties are usually nowhere near that high. Advanced medical and cyber technology has seen to that.
Unfortunately, this is true of our modern military. One of the biggest "issues" is the fact that we've gotten so good with saving the lives of our soldiers, we've have a lot more recovering from wounds than in previous wars. And some who have lost a lower extremity may go back out to the front lines with the advancement in prosthetic legs.
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Which is becoming a reality, even as we speak.
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Unfortunately, this is true of our modern military. One of the biggest "issues" is the fact that we've gotten so good with saving the lives of our soldiers, we've have a lot more recovering from wounds than in previous wars. And some who have lost a lower extremity may go back out to the front lines with the advancement in prosthetic legs.
Actually, it might be intended.
I've heard of a very serious study which has proven some years ago that it's more usefull for an army to injury without killing antagonist soldiers, because injuried but still alive soldiers cost more than dead ones, and because they're very bad for the other camp moral, when dead ones mainly call for revenge.
So weapon makers were expected to deliver weapons that makes you an infirm without killing you.
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Very true. Just look at the capabilities of the M-16 round. Unless you hit some major organs, it will simply injure.
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Unfortunately, this is true of our modern military. One of the biggest "issues" is the fact that we've gotten so good with saving the lives of our soldiers, we've have a lot more recovering from wounds than in previous wars. And some who have lost a lower extremity may go back out to the front lines with the advancement in prosthetic legs.
Actually, it might be intended.
I've heard of a very serious study which has proven some years ago that it's more usefull for an army to injury without killing antagonist soldiers, because injuried but still alive soldiers cost more than dead ones, and because they're very bad for the other camp moral, when dead ones mainly call for revenge.
So weapon makers were expected to deliver weapons that makes you an infirm without killing you.
I forget the exact numbers but I do remember reading that it takes X number of support personnel to care for wounded soldiers over X period of time. However, I wouldn't ascribe the choice of caliber for the M-16 as a result of that fact. Smaller caliber weapons, weigh less and allow the soldier to carry more ammo. Factor in that having a larger caliber bullet is going to generate far more recoil when shooting, which effects accuracy. There is no denying though that the 5.56mm cartridge is not legal to hunt deer with because it doesn't generate the required amount of muzzle energy.
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From experience , the Ak-47 7.62 combloc round(which is still probably the most popular round is the world) has a good knockdown and shock effect. Problem is that its not too accurate for aimed fire(due to the higher recoil of the Ak-47 and the primitive sights on most of them). However at close in fighting, accuracy doesn't really matter. Shock and Knockdown power of your guns does(that's why my buddies like carrying shotguns and Ak-47 for close in stuff). Also you can easilly get new ammo from your enemies.
However I personally like the M-16. the 5.56 round has less shock power but again the M-16 is more user friendly, more accurate, less recoil, better sights(on the new iterations). 5.56 round, less damage but stilll does the same thing.
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Anyways going back to desert wars.
Yeah , desert wars is very entertaining. Not only do the contestants fight Corps and their experimental stuff but also the denizens of the desert wars zone(Libya): Mutants, critters, toxic spirits, shadow spirits etc.
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Well so far, its got redacted, and redacted, plus some redacted.. OH and redacted!!!!
Caine! How dare you give so much of the book away.
Yes, folks. The entire book has nothing but redacted in it. In fact, I've seen all the redacted. It's pretty redacted.
@=)
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Unfortunately, this is true of our modern military. One of the biggest "issues" is the fact that we've gotten so good with saving the lives of our soldiers, we've have a lot more recovering from wounds than in previous wars. And some who have lost a lower extremity may go back out to the front lines with the advancement in prosthetic legs.
Actually, it might be intended.
I've heard of a very serious study which has proven some years ago that it's more usefull for an army to injury without killing antagonist soldiers, because injuried but still alive soldiers cost more than dead ones, and because they're very bad for the other camp moral, when dead ones mainly call for revenge.
So weapon makers were expected to deliver weapons that makes you an infirm without killing you.
Nice theory, chum, but tell that to the troops who are getting hit with IEDs, gurella tactics, snipers, etc. That would only work if both sides would play by standard rules of engagement. And when has that seriously happened? Problem is, it's a lot harder to injure rather than kill, and when it hits the fan and your buddies are getting blown away, do you think any rational person wants to INJURE their opponent? No, they want to end the attack by the swiftest means possible. It's like the drek I keep hearing about people who think cops should shoot "in the leg" or something. You know how bloody hard it is to do that when you are standing still, at a firing range, all calm and collected, against a stationary paper target? Now try it against a target that is dodging, weaving, jumping in and out from behind cover, and most importantly RETURNING FIRE while you are dodging, weaving, jumping, etc etc while your heart is racing and adreneline is pumping in your veins.
With respect, omae, there is a reason police and soliders are taught to shoot for senter mass and to eliminate the threat when it is necessary. And in my humble opinion, to fight to injure, especially in a "war" situation, is a lot less humane because it causes undue suffering. Less than lethal (notice I did not say non-lethal because there is no such thing) options have their place, but in order to survive, one must know when and when that time arrives to be able to pull the trigger.
Just my two cents, and sorry, this is a touchy subject for me...I'll get off my soapbox now.
:-\
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Well, think what you want, I only heard this some times ago, I don't even remember where, probably on the radio, I just repeat it here what I remember.
You don't buy it, you think no human being could think a war in terms of gains and costs, because it's a too much shocking and disgusting way of thinking, you think I lie or those I heard where liars ? no problem, I don't need you to believe me or to believe them, and I won't argue, especially if it's a touchy subject for you.
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Chummer, I see it every day. The problem is, way to many think of war as nothing BUT gains and losses, numbers and figures, projectons and statistical breakdowns. And I bet most of those who do have never seen a battlefield or had to truly use a weapon in anger.
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War should be horrible to behold and even the thought of entering into it give pause to even the stoutest soul.
As a wargamer, I play such games not because I revel in the thought of war, but as a study of tactical (and certain games...strategic) considerations that go into it. A paintball player, I have come to appreciate factors like force multipliers, fire and maneuver, diversions, camouflage, what the fog of war means, and vital nature of communication.
I hold in the highest regard those brave individuals who have willingly gone to war, given their blood and sadly their lives for the rest of us.
When I did the write up for Desert Wars in Target: Wastelands, I was thinking of the games that the Romans held in the coliseum. Vast amounts of Roman treasure (looted from conquered nations) was spent on these games and the popularity of them was obviously considerable. I have read a number of books on the Roman games, Those About to Die (being one of the most thorough), discusses the bloodlust of the spectators. I will not recount what I read here due to the vulgarity of it. Let us just say, that in a dystopian society blood sports of this nature are a staple.
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I also play board wargames but mainly for historical learning purposes.
And wars are not fun to be in.
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Forgot to add:
I like obscure topics too(Second Sino Japanese war, Liberian civil war, etc.). WW2 eastern front etc. are too overgamed.
Anyways going back to Shadowurn,
I won't be surprised if there are actually legal televised gladiator style bloodsports in the 6th world. Probably beamed from some non UN country(eg. Congo tribal lands, Bosnia, etc.). They even get to pit anyone vs. anything.
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You don't need to go that far.
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What the other Jack said. Aztlan has been broadcasting state executions (they say the person has been found guilty of such-and-such) for years. And it's some of the most watch Tri-D out there. :P
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I would not be surprised if there was a tv show which actually had embeded jounralist following troops in a warzone. Or even worse, a reality shows where contestants are thrown into a warzone or feral zone and survive.
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What the other Jack said. Aztlan has been broadcasting state executions (they say the person has been found guilty of such-and-such) for years. And it's some of the most watch Tri-D out there. :P
Yup. Urban brawl too isn't really a pacific sitcom, though I don't know if it's really deadly or not, and to see true pitfight you may not have to go further than Seattle's barrens. Are barrens UN country ? ;D
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Maybe we can see these illegal media broadcasts in the Atitude sourcebook.
Not only are these probably televised but you can also watch them via the net.
Also even if illegal in UN countries(or anyone signing the corporate accords) and they would probably try to jam the signals, there are probably too many backdoors in the net.
Heck I'll even stretch it to torture and murder reality tv shows ala Hostel(disgusting movie btw) or Cannibal Holocaust.
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Sometimes players die in Urban Brawl matches, but it's not the idea behind it. Although they don't go out of their minds to make sure people aren't hurt real bad.
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Urban Brawl does have a medic on each team, and allow spellcasting, mind, along with the "trigger the yellow stripe on your armor and you're not a fair target any more" rule.
I've always imagined a lot of players get knocked out of the fight, down and bleeding...but not too many get outright killed every single game.
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Fastjack is correct about Aztlan broadcasting bloodsport trids and even though they are illegal in the CAS, UCAS and a good many other countries lots of people still watch them. Probably helps keep the trid pirates making money.
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Fastjack is correct about Aztlan broadcasting bloodsport trids and even though they are illegal in the CAS, UCAS and a good many other countries lots of people still watch them. Probably helps keep the trid pirates making money.
Ive used this as a hook in a previous game. A certin merc hires the runners as backup when he finds some old chummers of his are being forced to be contestants.
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Desert Wars started when two corporate sec forces got into a firefight about something out in the middle of a desert, will have to check which desert. There happened to be a camera crew in the area and it was broadcast, alot of people watched and the corps went "Hmmm... profits".
It's not just open to the corps, nations and even merc companies can compete. I imagine shadowrunners are used to sabatoge equipment and as irregular assets.
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Re: 5.56mm and "wounding".
The basic concept behind the 5.56mm round initially becoming US/NATO standard is very simple. You can carry more of it. The wounding thing was a nice social theory tacked on back.
All of the studies from WWII and Korea showed that the single most limiting factor in infantry firefights was ammunition. At ranges beyond 100m or so, the ability to actually hit anything drops dramatically when you factor in a combat environment.
So, the NATO guys decided there's three ways to solve that:
1) Fire lots. Lets say it takes on average 3000 rounds per wound/kill. (it got as high as 10,000 in vietnam). If a soldier can carry 300 rounds of 5.56, and only 180 of 7.62mm...you can get more hits per load.
2) Get in close or a good position. This requires moving. And moving equals dead unless the enemy isn't shooting back. So you spend prodigious amounts of ammunition keeping their heads down. The more ammo you have, the longer you can cover movement.
3) Hope the other guy runs out. if you pop and shoot one round every 5 seconds, and he pops and shoots one round every 5 seconds, and no one is really hitting anything...you win by default when he runs out a hundred rounds before you. Or he starts conserving, and now you can move or take well aimed shots since very little in the way of bullets is zipping back your way.
Add in the fact that people figured on having to fight a 4:1 odds or worse against the USSR, and you simply couldn't "hold the line" with the ammo you had for larger rounds. You have to remember, this concept was designed shortly after experiencing massed infantry attacks in Korea, and when it was expected the main role of the rifleman was to hold or take the last 200-300 meters while tanks and support weapons produced the mass casualties.