Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Errata => Topic started by: Marcus on <07-09-18/1508:57>

Title: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Marcus on <07-09-18/1508:57>
So on the scale of 1 to Burning someone's house down at Christmas, how much would folks oppose the idea of errating astral combat, back to allowing weapon skills with weapon foci again rather then the astral combat skill, thus reducing the long list of skills needed by mages by 1?

Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Hobbes on <07-09-18/1515:29>
Meta, Mages don't need the buff. 

Rules... while it does add an additional skill needed, it is fairly simple.  Fighting something in Astral space, use Astral Combat.

.... call it getting dumped by a girl you were thinking about breaking up with anyway on Easter.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Beta on <07-09-18/1529:29>
Flavour-wise, I kind of like astral combat being its own thing.  It emphasizes the strange nature of a combat where movement is so fast, damage is done by willing it as much as anything else, etc.

Mechanically, I find it really intriguing.  It would literally make a couple of character builds that I'd given up on suddenly work, it would give some mages some back up combat skills (when really they wanted astral combat) and others some back up astral combat (when really they wanted melee skills).  Hobbes is right, though, that in general mages are doing just fine.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Reaver on <07-09-18/1538:17>
Every thing has a price....

And that includes what you are good at. What to be good at astral combat? That's time your not training your calculus skills. Want to be good driving a car? That's time away from working on your shooting...

No one is good at everything right out of the box. Although enough karma does solve this eventually, the fun is in gaining that karma :P
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Marcus on <07-09-18/1558:10>
.... call it getting dumped by a girl you were thinking about breaking up with anyway on Easter.

Legit.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: adzling on <07-09-18/1945:31>
When you astral perceive your dual natured.

When your dual natures you can attack astral things with your meat stats and skills.

As long as said astral entity is within reach you don’t need astral combat.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Finstersang on <07-11-18/0812:59>
Astral Combat is hardly needed by mages. Same goes for Banishing. It´s far more effective to Combat Astral Targets with direct combat spells. I think both skills deserve to stay and receive more utility instead.

Ideas for more versatile Astral Combat:

However, I´m not totally opposed to scrapping astral combat as a skill. If so, it should stay as a specialisation to all the Close Combat skills (and to other forms of astral movement, see above).


Since I mentioned Banishing: Some ideas to make this skill more versatile as well.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Beta on <07-11-18/0921:43>
FWIW, to make banishing more useful (we hadn't realized how problematic it was at character creation, so valuable points were sunk into it), I'm testing allowing it be used in a manner similar to counter-spelling, but versus spirit powers.  So far it seems reasonable -- it puts free actions at a premium because both that use and counter-spelling use free actions, but it does make large spirits not quite as reliably powerful, and I like what that does for game-play.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Xenon on <07-29-18/0937:46>
When your dual natures you can attack astral things with your meat stats and skills.
Wait. What??

When you use astral perception you can no longer hear, see, feel, taste or smell the physical world. You can only sense the astral plane. Yes, the physical world cast a shadow on the astral that you can sense and you would still hit anything with a physical body using your physical attributes and physical skills but your strength and skill to swing a sword mean nothing when fighting a wholly astral form that doesn’t have a physical body. You need to use mental combat spells or astral combat using your mental attributes.

SR5 Astral Combat
Astrally perceiving and dual-natured charac- ters use their physical attributes and skills to fight op- ponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Michael Chandra on <07-29-18/0948:59>
When you use a weapon focus, page 315 lists the following rules:
Attack: Astral Combat + Willpower [Accuracy] v. Intuition + Logic
Damage: By weapon (using Charisma instead of Strength)
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Marcus on <07-29-18/1832:21>
Yea and hence the proposal, but I don't think many get my sense of humor.   
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Overbyte on <07-29-18/1846:19>
When you use astral perception you can no longer hear, see, feel, taste or smell the physical world. You can only sense the astral plane.

Why would you think this? You merely get a -2 to actions on the physical plane.

SR5 Astral Combat
Astrally perceiving and dual-natured charac- ters use their physical attributes and skills to fight op- ponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities.

Yah. That's what the book says, but I don't really like this for dual natured peeps. They still have to physically swing their sword since they aren't astrally projecting, which seems like it would require physical skills on their part.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Kiirnodel on <07-30-18/1212:43>
Yah. That's what the book says, but I don't really like this for dual natured peeps. They still have to physically swing their sword since they aren't astrally projecting, which seems like it would require physical skills on their part.

Against other creatures with a physical form, sure. That's what you would use, but against wholly Astral entities you go back to using Astral Combat. An Astral Form doesn't care how hard you can hit or how fast you swing. They move at the speed of thought, which is why Willpower and Charisma are the attributes that govern your ability to hit and deal damage to them.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Sphinx on <07-30-18/1331:45>
Against other creatures with a physical form, sure. That's what you would use, but against wholly Astral entities you go back to using Astral Combat. An Astral Form doesn't care how hard you can hit or how fast you swing. They move at the speed of thought, which is why Willpower and Charisma are the attributes that govern your ability to hit and deal damage to them.

Agreed. Melee combat in physical space is based on things like mass, momentum, inertia, gravity, anatomy, technique, and physical strength, which simply aren't relevant against a wholly astral opponent. Astral combat is based on entirely different principles (magical strength, force of will, understanding magical energies), so it's an entirely different skill, even for a dual-natured combatant.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Overbyte on <07-30-18/1446:45>
Against other creatures with a physical form, sure. That's what you would use, but against wholly Astral entities you go back to using Astral Combat. An Astral Form doesn't care how hard you can hit or how fast you swing. They move at the speed of thought, which is why Willpower and Charisma are the attributes that govern your ability to hit and deal damage to them.

Agreed. Melee combat in physical space is based on things like mass, momentum, inertia, gravity, anatomy, technique, and physical strength, which simply aren't relevant against a wholly astral opponent. Astral combat is based on entirely different principles (magical strength, force of will, understanding magical energies), so it's an entirely different skill, even for a dual-natured combatant.

But your sword still has mass and momentum and all those other relevant meat space things which is why I don't like the rules. The astral target is running around (at the speed of thought) in astral space but you are not. Besides, almost all dual-natured creatures (except Horned Bear and Greater Thunderbird) don't even have Astral Combat skill according to the books (SR5, Howling Shadows). I understand the rationale, I just disagree. I might agree that the resultant damage is purely astral-based, using astral strength (charisma) because that is where the damage is taking place and how hard you swing your blade doesn't matter. However, that may create a big problem for many dual-natured creatures  who have crap charisma, like the aforementioned Horned Bear who DOES have Astral Combat but does 1 damage because of their Charisma, but I suppose that is working as intended.

The same logic would apply in reverse, if an astral being attacks you when you are dual-natured, then you still need reaction and intuition to dodge because you are still moving your meat body out of the way.

Once again, I realize it is not RAW/RAI, I just simply disagree with the logic here.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Marcus on <08-09-18/1902:39>
Well excepts Hobbes he gets my humor.
I guess 1 is infinitely greater then zero. So I'll call that progress.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Xenon on <08-11-18/2029:13>
Why would you think this?
Feel like I probably already answered that in this post:
https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=27492.msg500494#msg500494


You merely get a -2 to actions on the physical plane.
You can still sense a gray and shadowy mirror of the physical world while in astral, but trying to do any actions in the physical world while only using your astral perception (rather than your normal 5 physical senses) is highly distracting (which is why you get a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice to all your actions in the physical world and you can't even use your physical perception at all).

It is far less distracting to for example be in AR with your matrix persona link-locked in a host and engaged in cybercombat by multiple IC and a security spider while you take actions in the physical world (you don't get a negative dice pool modifier at all, but in in some cases a GM might rule that you get a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice to your physical perception).


They still have to physically swing their sword...
...you still need reaction and intuition to dodge because you are still moving your meat body out of the way.
To be honest I am not even sure you need to physically "swing your real life sword" or move your real life body "out of the way" while engaged in combat with an astral entity...

"You think that's air you're breathing?"

Anyway, what we do know is that fighting wholly astral beings is mostly a mind battle. You are basically fighting invisible "ghosts". The only way you can even sense them in the first place is by shifting your physical perception to your astral perception. The only way for you to hurt them (or being hurt by them) is by shifting from your physical perception to your astral perception. You need to dip into the astral world. Different rules apply here. Things like physics and momentum are no longer a factor. Being skilled with a weapon or in martial arts are worth nothing. Being physically agile or strong will not benefit you in astral combat. Even good Reaction will not help you. You use Willpower to land your attacks, Charisma to deal more damage and Logic to avoid getting hit. For your physical skills and attributes to matter you need to have a real target. A target with an actual physical form.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Ariketh on <03-07-19/0039:59>
When your dual natures you can attack astral things with your meat stats and skills.
Wait. What??

When you use astral perception you can no longer hear, see, feel, taste or smell the physical world. You can only sense the astral plane. Yes, the physical world cast a shadow on the astral that you can sense and you would still hit anything with a physical body using your physical attributes and physical skills but your strength and skill to swing a sword mean nothing when fighting a wholly astral form that doesn’t have a physical body. You need to use mental combat spells or astral combat using your mental attributes.

SR5 Astral Combat
Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities.

Behold! Thread cybermancy! (I wouldn't normally do this, but this thread is still on the first page.)

I noticed that adzling made a similar post over on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/883hct/sr5_melee_adept_killing_hands_and_astral_combat/

Apparently, this is unpublished errata as of 11 months ago? I can't find any official update since this or the reddit post. I have a game coming up and an adept player is trying to juggle point expenditures. So my questions: Has this been updated officially? If so, where?

Thanks in advance!

Edit: I should note that I've spent the last couple hours searching, but I freely admit that my google-fu sucks.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Kiirnodel on <03-07-19/0130:34>
I've never really understood what was so confusing about using Astral Combat + Willpower vs wholly astral entities. Or why so many people seem to be against that being the way.

Essentially: If one of the combatants lacks a physical body then the combat isn't physical. It becomes an attack of Wills (Astral Combat) so you use the rules for Astral Combat.


As far as I'm aware, the errata committee has ground to a halt due to various reasons. So no updates on that front.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Ariketh on <03-07-19/0258:34>
I've never really understood what was so confusing about using Astral Combat + Willpower vs wholly astral entities. Or why so many people seem to be against that being the way.

For some it's the cost of the extra skill. For others, tradition. IIRC, in previous editions it was a throwaway skill unless you wanted to be decent in combat while projecting, since drain was always physical. I always figured that the change in SR5 was done deliberately to make astral combat a less niche skill. But if there's errata changing it, it goes back to a niche skill and saves my player some karma.
Title: Re: Question on Astral Combat, Weapon Foci, and skills
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <03-23-19/1808:19>
Meta, Mages don't need the buff. 


For me I don't think it buffs mages that much as it is unlikely they have the stats to make it work very well anyway. OTOH for adepts it would help, and I kind of like it for them.  They already had a fairly beefy investment just to see on the astral, additional skills make something they wont be very good at a costly expense for little gain.