[Elektrycerze3]

Hoi!

One of my players is constatly arguing over matters which the rest of the group (including yours truly as the gm) consider self-evident or indemonstrable.

For example, she is positively confident, that your average Joe is very attentive to his surroundings, like, he will immediately spot a new ad on an announcement board near an entrance to his appartment building (like this:http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/6/91/966/91966972_obyavleniya.jpg), or that he will immediately spot, that there is a new pen in his cubicle at work. Mind you: spot immediately and 10 times out of 10.

We tried proving otherwise with ADD statistics, with some random psychology and attention tests... All to no avail.

The sad thing is, it makes gaming with her somewhat... challenging. Like, "why didn't he spot the RFID tag on his desk? What, his perception is at -2 as he is distracted and he didn't roll good enough? Bullshit, it is obvious!".

And it's impossible to dissuade her. She never concedes, even if her last argument is "I don't buy it". One time we gave her a couple of articles on posttraumatic stress disorder, but she still considered it a myth.

Of course we might well be wrong on some points, but she never tries to prove her point, she just considers herself right a priori.

Could you offer any advice on the situation? She is our friend but it is becoming a problem.

Thanks in advance!

[TheRedArmy]

Oof. That's rough. First off, I would take some offense at the "myth" of PTSD. Although not diagnosed, I am quite confident my brother had PTSD after his tour in Iraq.

I will say I agree with her in that people notice changes in very familiar environments most of the time, but not all. Perception score is mostly irrelevant here. Take your bedroom.  If you had something in a particular place, and you come home, there's a decent chance you'll notice if it's moved unexpectedly. Ultimately, this is a matter of giving ground where she should. Unless it's important for some reason, I'd be inclined to just go with the GM. Tell her, away from others, that it's distracting from the game and hurting some people's fun when it becomes a big deal. I would also put in instances where people do notice such changes, no roll required. She's not exactly right, but not completely wrong either. Big objects that are obvious, go her way on it sometimes.

[Lysanderz]

Kick her from the table. Poof. Problem solved. Sometimes people need to learn that to play in a group based game you gotta fit in with your particular table. If you're playing against them by wanting to ignore perception as a skill (which is what she is basically saying from your post) then I'd say its time to have a "Come to Jesus" talk.

"Hey look, I understand you have your beliefs and you're allowed to have them. But the rules say this, we as a group are gonna follow those rules and if you aren't going to follow those rules then we need you not to play with us. It was a group vote."

Or you break out the cards and take a vote that way..... >.>

[mtfeeney = Baron]

We had a player like this once.  It got to the point where anytime he started going into whatever spiel was about to begin, the DM just ignored him and talked to the rest of the group.  Don't let it get to that point, it's not good for anyone.  I second the suggestion to talk to her in private and discuss with her about how it's hindering the game for the group as a whole.  Ask her to help you make a great story, instead of digging in her heels and fighting against you and bringing the game to a screeching halt.  A rational player will be humbled and agree.  An irrational player won't, and then it's time to part ways with her.  You can still be friends outside of the game, but you're not required to have her there.

[emsquared]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change_blindness#Change_blindness_blindness

I feel so lucky when I hear some of the problem player stories here... Anyway, if I were GMing for a player in a situation like this, I'd have a hard time not just telling them: "There are mechanics for these things, tiny objects have certain thresholds, a PCs perceptive ability has a rating, and there are modifiers to both of these things. We're going to use them." If she doesn't like that, why is she playing a dice-based RPG?

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Thanks for that link, it was interesting reading.   

[Mournclaw]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra

'Nuf said.

[Pyromaster13]

I think you should swap the numbers on two of her less used skills on her character sheet, then during the game point it out and say "point proven".

[All4BigGuns]

Hoi!

One of my players is constatly arguing over matters which the rest of the group (including yours truly as the gm) consider self-evident or indemonstrable.

For example, she is positively confident, that your average Joe is very attentive to his surroundings, like, he will immediately spot a new ad on an announcement board near an entrance to his appartment building (like this:http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/6/91/966/91966972_obyavleniya.jpg), or that he will immediately spot, that there is a new pen in his cubicle at work. Mind you: spot immediately and 10 times out of 10.

We tried proving otherwise with ADD statistics, with some random psychology and attention tests... All to no avail.

The sad thing is, it makes gaming with her somewhat... challenging. Like, "why didn't he spot the RFID tag on his desk? What, his perception is at -2 as he is distracted and he didn't roll good enough? Bullshit, it is obvious!".

And it's impossible to dissuade her. She never concedes, even if her last argument is "I don't buy it". One time we gave her a couple of articles on posttraumatic stress disorder, but she still considered it a myth.

Of course we might well be wrong on some points, but she never tries to prove her point, she just considers herself right a priori.

Could you offer any advice on the situation? She is our friend but it is becoming a problem.

Thanks in advance!

The "problem" seems more that you and your group are the ones being intransigent. 'Realism' should NEVER be taken to an extreme that dampens the fun of the game, and with your statement of "trying to prove otherwise with statistics" that is exactly what you're doing. Simply put, LIGHTEN UP.

[Elektrycerze3]

Hoi!

One of my players is constatly arguing over matters which the rest of the group (including yours truly as the gm) consider self-evident or indemonstrable.

For example, she is positively confident, that your average Joe is very attentive to his surroundings, like, he will immediately spot a new ad on an announcement board near an entrance to his appartment building (like this:http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/6/91/966/91966972_obyavleniya.jpg), or that he will immediately spot, that there is a new pen in his cubicle at work. Mind you: spot immediately and 10 times out of 10.

We tried proving otherwise with ADD statistics, with some random psychology and attention tests... All to no avail.

The sad thing is, it makes gaming with her somewhat... challenging. Like, "why didn't he spot the RFID tag on his desk? What, his perception is at -2 as he is distracted and he didn't roll good enough? Bullshit, it is obvious!".

And it's impossible to dissuade her. She never concedes, even if her last argument is "I don't buy it". One time we gave her a couple of articles on posttraumatic stress disorder, but she still considered it a myth.

Of course we might well be wrong on some points, but she never tries to prove her point, she just considers herself right a priori.

Could you offer any advice on the situation? She is our friend but it is becoming a problem.

Thanks in advance!

The "problem" seems more that you and your group are the ones being intransigent. 'Realism' should NEVER be taken to an extreme that dampens the fun of the game, and with your statement of "trying to prove otherwise with statistics" that is exactly what you're doing. Simply put, LIGHTEN UP.

My bad, I didn't explain the situation in full:
We never initiate any arguments. She starts them. I always go for dramatic elements rather than realism in gaming. And we use statistics after games just as a way to maybe stop her disruptive behavior. It is she who considers things unrealistic.

It is exactly like this: the groups attempts to ambush some enemies, they fail their perception, she goes "no, they should have spotted us, it is so obvious!" Or imagine this: an NPC's public profile mentions PTSD, she goes "there is no such thing". We always try to refrain from disputes during games, but even "arguments" like "it's a game, deal with it" fail to work. I always try to end arguments immediately or at least argue in between games, but it is becoming increasingly difficult.

[Lysanderz]

Take a deck of cards. If players want them to stay, have them out a red card face down. Too many black marks at the table and she goes. Don't risk the group for the individual.

[PeterSmith]

Take the person aside before the next game. Ask them if they have anything going on that is spilling over to game time. If they do, suggest they take a break until things get sorted out.

[Elektrycerze3]

Thanks for the input! Tonight we will discuss this with the group and we are definetly talking this through. I'll share the results afterwards.

I think you should swap the numbers on two of her less used skills on her character sheet, then during the game point it out and say "point proven".

You are devious! Great idea, although I can't use it: it'll only upset her without changing her opinion. It's not about being right or wrong but about finding a way to game peacefully.

[Sichr]

Tell her to GTFO. From time to time, I argue as a player, and as GM I accept arguments on rules, where there are different interpretations. Very rare. And very quick. But if she dont want to play by the rules, she has no place at the table.

[All4BigGuns]

Still seems that "Lighten up" is what you and your group need to do. Just sounds like you're all getting all worked up over nothing.