[wraithdrit]

So the big bad guy was faced this last weekend and it worked out pretty well. The party was forced to think quickly, and luckily their sniper and shaman were able to damage the thing while one of the Phys Ads kept it busy. The Phys Ad couldn't really hurt it, but neither could it get passed his massive Unarmed dice pool, so it worked out well.

All in all it had the desired effect, they went "oh noes!" and had to come up with a few things to be successful that was not the standard throw a lot of lead at it.

Admittedly, it was more like throw a lot of explosive lead at it instead, but hey, it had the desired effect.

- Wraith

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

There's a great editorial article by Roger E. Moore in an mid 80's Dragon Magazine where he tells the story of the hardest dungeon he ever went on (1st ed. D&D)...

Ah, yes.  Tucker's Kobolds.

[spoiler]

Tucker's Kobolds

This month's editorial is about Tucker's kobolds. We get letters on occasion asking for advice on creating high-level AD&D® game adventures, and Tucker's kobolds seem to fit the bill.

Many high-level characters have little to do because they're not challenged. They yawn at tarrasques and must be forcibly kept awake when a lich appears. The DMs involved don't know what to do, so they stop dealing with the problem and the characters go into Character Limbo. Getting to high level is hard, but doing anything once you get there is worse.

One of the key problems in adventure design lies in creating opponents who can challenge powerful characters. Singular monsters like tarrasques and liches are easy to gang up on; the party can concentrate its firepower on the target until the target falls down dead and wiggles its little feet in the air. Designing monsters more powerful than a tarrasque is self-defeating; if the group kills your super-monster, what will you do next -- send in its mother? That didn't work on Beowulf, and it probably won't work here.

Worse yet, singular supermonsters rarely have to think. They just use their trusty, predictable claw/claw/bite. This shouldn't be the measure of a campaign. These games fall apart because there's no challenge to them, no mental stimulation - no danger.

In all the games that I've seen, the worst, most horrible, most awful beyond-comparison opponents ever seen were often weaker than the characters who fought them. They were simply well-armed and intelligent beings who were played by the DM to be utterly ruthless and clever. Tucker's kobolds were like that.

Tucker ran an incredibly dangerous dungeon in the days I was stationed at Ft. Bragg, N.C. This dungeon had corridors that changed all of your donkeys into huge flaming demons or dropped the whole party into acid baths, but the demons were wienies compared to the kobolds on Level One. These kobolds were just regular kobolds, with 1-4 hp and all that, but they were mean. When I say they were mean, I mean they were bad, Jim. They graduated magna cum laude from the Sauron Institute for the Criminally Vicious.

When I joined the gaming group, some of the PCs had already met Tucker's kobolds, and they were not eager to repeat the experience. The party leader went over the penciled map of the dungeon and tried to find ways to avoid the little critters, but it was not possible. The group resigned itself to making a run for it through Level One to get to the elevators, where we could go down to Level Ten and fight "okay" monsters like huge flaming demons.

It didn't work. The kobolds caught us about 60' into the dungeon and locked the door behind us and barred it. Then they set the corridor on fire, while we were still in it.

"NOOOOOO!!!" screamed the party leader. "It's THEM! Run!!!"

Thus encouraged, our party scrambled down a side passage, only to be ambushed by more kobolds firing with light crossbows through murder holes in the walls and ceilings. Kobolds with metal armor and shields flung Molotov cocktails at us from the other sides of huge piles of flaming debris, which other kobolds pushed ahead of their formation using long metal poles like broomsticks. There was no mistake about it. These kobolds were bad.

We turned to our group leader for advice.

"AAAAAAGH!!!" he cried, hands clasped over his face to shut out the tactical situation.

We abandoned most of our carried items and donkeys to speed our flight toward the elevators, but we were cut off by kobold snipers who could split-move and fire, ducking back behind stones and corners after launching steel-tipped bolts and arrows, javelins, hand axes, and more flaming oil bottles. We ran into an unexplored section of Level One, taking damage all the time. It was then we discovered that these kobolds had honeycombed the first level with small tunnels to speed their movements. Kobold commandos were everywhere. All of our hirelings died. Most of our henchmen followed. We were next.

I recall we had a 12th-level magic user with us, and we asked him to throw a spell or something. "Blast 'em!" we yelled as we ran. "Fireball 'em! Get those little @#+$%*&!!"

"What, in these narrow corridors? " he yelled back. "You want I should burn us all up instead of them?"

Our panicked flight suddenly took us to a dead-end corridor, where a giant air shaft dropped straight down into unspeakable darkness, far past Level Ten. Here we hastily pounded spikes into the floors and walls, flung ropes over the ledge, and climbed straight down into that unspeakable darkness, because anything we met down there was sure to be better than those kobolds.

We escaped, met some huge flaming demons on Level Ten, and even managed to kill one after about an hour of combat and the lives of half the group. We felt pretty good -- but the group leader could not be cheered up.

"We still have to go out the way we came in," he said as he gloomily prepared to divide up the treasure.

Tucker's kobolds were the worst things we could imagine. They ate all our donkeys and took our treasure and did everything they could to make us miserable, but they had style and brains and tenacity and courage. We respected them and loved them, sort of, because they were never boring.

If kobolds could do this to a group of PCs from 6th to 12th level, picture what a few orcs and some low level NPCs could do to a 12th-16th level group, or a gang of mid-level NPCs and monsters to groups of up to 20th level. Then give it a try. Sometimes, it's the little things -- used well -- that count.

Roger E. Moore

[/spoiler]

IMNSHO, there is no way for there to be a rating scale for the opposition against the players.  In Shadowrun, like in Real Life™, tactics take the day.  Oh, it sure helps if you have a Superior Gizmo™, but simply put, Superior Gizmos™ enable you to have better tactics, or to survive the first moments of the other group's better tactics so that you can apply your better tactics.  Superior Gizmos™ in Shadowrun are everything -- cyberware, bioware, snoop drones, spirits, magic, Big Guns™, Nasty Bullets™, so on and so forth -- because Superior Gizmos™ mean Superior Knowledge™.  Which group first detects the other guy?  Which group knows the area by heart?  Which group can concentrate the most firepower on the most vulnerable point, or figure out what the other guy's vulnerable point is??  If your gizmo can beat their gizmo, if you can win the information battle, you have the advantage.  If you can capitalize on that advantage, it doesn't matter whether they're wired and armored to hell and back; if they can't fly out of the 60' deep pit that is underneath the '75 kg only please' weakened floor they're about to put their 150kg foo through, incidentally triggering the 2750 kg worth of scrap metal, boards, bricks, and other crap that's set to fall in on top of them the moment they hit bottom, then they're pretty much screwed.

A gang of 5 can take out a black ops strike force of 20 if the gang has gotten advanced word that the OpFor is going to hit their place 'tomorrow', just by using their cash really well and turning the apartment building into a Kill House™ -- and if they're able to sucker the strike force into and through it.*  A black ops team of 5 can take out a gang of 100 if the gang doesn't know they're coming, don't know which way to turn when the fit hits the shan, and have no real leadership to keep them cohesive.**  Proper application of tactics is the key -- not magic, not firepower, not armor, not anything else.  And knowledge -- of your opponent's capabilities, of their movement, of their weaknesses, and especially of your own capabilities, weaknesses, and tactical options from moment to moment -- will always be the key.

Always.



* - Go read James Daniel Ross's Radiation Angels: The Chimerium Gambit for a good example of this.†
** - Read Russell Zimmerman's Rook on this very site for a good example of this.†
† - I find it interesting that both characters are named Rook ...

[Zilfer]

Wow in tucker's dungeon i could see them having problems like that without a wizard. Wizard must not have had any useful things for that situation.... <.< I think while the fireball would have damaged the whole party it would have taken out much more of those kobolds. Anyways my DM has done games like this however imagine that tunneling with fuckin Umberhulks.

-.- damn tunneling bastards!

Anyways definately agree with the statements above about tactics and info providing the advantage.

[kirk]

Well, now "damage" is the important term. Remember that they've been whittling on the party already. Keep in mind that even if you pop this group there are more, and you'll have done them the favor of bringing you closer to negative numbers. And last but not least, don't forget that the mage is mainly looking at his own hitpoints when considering casting a fireball at danger close.

[squee_nabob]

Also, keep in mind this was back before wands of infinite cure light wounds and rope trick became common.

Tucker's Kobolds seem to be about reducing a finite resource (in their case HP and spells), a little at a time which is not always the case (please correct me if I am drawing the wrong conclusion).

[Zilfer]

Well, now "damage" is the important term. Remember that they've been whittling on the party already. Keep in mind that even if you pop this group there are more, and you'll have done them the favor of bringing you closer to negative numbers. And last but not least, don't forget that the mage is mainly looking at his own hitpoints when considering casting a fireball at danger close.

Wouldn't this also be around the time where it would be really hard to hit a 12th level fighter with decent armor? Playing balder's gate right now and about the only time a kolbold hits my fighter is when it criticals.

Yes I understand it's danger close but i'm sure that fireball if it's going to engulf them is going to travel quite a ways in this confined space, killing a lot more of them. Magic items might have been more rare but i'm sure there were quite a few spells back then that would have come in handy.

One that comes to mind is Invisibility, Protection from Arrows. A Few charm persons could have helped to. I mean, the wizard should have had some mean spells at 12th level. Guess he just chose the wrong ones to memorize for that day eh? (Though i'd like to note that I play 3.5 and my highest level character is at level 7 after over a year of playing every weekend. The DM that introduced us to DnD, doesn't like how fast you'd usually level and believes in the journey to get there so we are used to 400-700 exp per session no matter what your level. xD) So we are only dealing with level 2-3 spells right now and plenty of them would be useful, i can't think there weren't that many spells back then.... <.<

 

[Mirikon]

It was also back when casting Fireball in an enclosed space caused the fire to shoot down the hall like a flamethrower. Meaning that the party would have been toast.

[Zilfer]

It was also back when casting Fireball in an enclosed space caused the fire to shoot down the hall like a flamethrower. Meaning that the party would have been toast.

Which is why it would do the same to most of the kolbolds in the area.... 1-4 means even if they made their saves their toast while the party might drop a few people, a cleric at that level could easily bring them back. If they all rolled horribly by then... their saves shouldn't have been that bad at that level either. <.< Just saying, i think there was more to it than just what he remembered. There usually is when recounting a DnD Session. (As far as i know this rule hasn't changed... we still make it extend further in confind spaces....)

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Zilfer, you're completely missing the point -- and getting bogged down in functionally useless speculation/contemplation.  The point isn't 'how do you beat a group of Tucker's Kobolds', the point is the illustration of how completely overwhelming good tactics can be.  Tucker used a race considered incredibly weak and contemptible to illustrate the point -- that good/clever tactics with what you have on hand can royally kick in the head of an individual (or group of individuals) considered significantly more powerful than you.  And here's another point:

These are the same tactical concepts used by every group of players since forever.

Hit and run; focus your attacks on a weak point.  Trap an enemy, use terrain against them, etc. etc. etc.  PC parties use it against opposition; there is no reason the opposition can't use it against them, except that the GM is trying to avoid a TPK.

[squee_nabob]

The Wyrm Ouroboros, you are also failing to include part of the point – that Tucker’s Kobolds rely upon the fact that they can win a war of attrition by decreasing a hard to replenish resource (such as HP in 1st edition D&D or friendly NPCs). When you don’t have a cap on these resources (such as in 3.5 D&D HP), then Tucker’s Kobolds are much less scary. 

[Zilfer]

Zilfer, you're completely missing the point -- and getting bogged down in functionally useless speculation/contemplation.  The point isn't 'how do you beat a group of Tucker's Kobolds', the point is the illustration of how completely overwhelming good tactics can be.  Tucker used a race considered incredibly weak and contemptible to illustrate the point -- that good/clever tactics with what you have on hand can royally kick in the head of an individual (or group of individuals) considered significantly more powerful than you.  And here's another point:

These are the same tactical concepts used by every group of players since forever.

Hit and run; focus your attacks on a weak point.  Trap an enemy, use terrain against them, etc. etc. etc.  PC parties use it against opposition; there is no reason the opposition can't use it against them, except that the GM is trying to avoid a TPK.

Oh I understand that completely and I wasn't trying to start an argument about something I agree with. I was just saying I think they could have been taken out. It makes me want to do something similiar but I'd need something a bit tougher than kolbolds.

Depends on what you had in your group for the HP. Again I'm surprised the kolbolds could even hit most of the group save for the wizard, or that they didn't have any potions to help in that situation. *shrugs*

Happy gaming!

[kirk]

Zilfer, you're completely missing the point -- and getting bogged down in functionally useless speculation/contemplation.  The point isn't 'how do you beat a group of Tucker's Kobolds', the point is the illustration of how completely overwhelming good tactics can be.  Tucker used a race considered incredibly weak and contemptible to illustrate the point -- that good/clever tactics with what you have on hand can royally kick in the head of an individual (or group of individuals) considered significantly more powerful than you.  And here's another point:

These are the same tactical concepts used by every group of players since forever.

Hit and run; focus your attacks on a weak point.  Trap an enemy, use terrain against them, etc. etc. etc.  PC parties use it against opposition; there is no reason the opposition can't use it against them, except that the GM is trying to avoid a TPK.

Oh I understand that completely and I wasn't trying to start an argument about something I agree with. I was just saying I think they could have been taken out. It makes me want to do something similiar but I'd need something a bit tougher than kolbolds.

Depends on what you had in your group for the HP. Again I'm surprised the kolbolds could even hit most of the group save for the wizard, or that they didn't have any potions to help in that situation. *shrugs*

Happy gaming!

One of the things that annoyed me till I got smart as a GM (1st ed) was that a decently high character could wander into a kobold village and slaughter them all without suffering as much as a hangnail.

The getting smart came by making the kobolds the intelligent little bastidges they are. They're individually weak and helpless and smart enough to know it. They're constant prey for larger humanoids, which is just about all of them, and they have no natural defenses.

Traps. Nets. Ropes. Hot liquids. Fire. Massed shooting. Pot-holed pathways with punji stakes. Never, ever, ever get close enough for hand-to-hand.  Great, your thief detects traps. And you stand there, easy fat target, while he disarms. and disarms and disarms and..

You're right. A kobold can't hit you, can't hit most of the group. If it fights your game.

[Zilfer]

Zilfer, you're completely missing the point -- and getting bogged down in functionally useless speculation/contemplation.  The point isn't 'how do you beat a group of Tucker's Kobolds', the point is the illustration of how completely overwhelming good tactics can be.  Tucker used a race considered incredibly weak and contemptible to illustrate the point -- that good/clever tactics with what you have on hand can royally kick in the head of an individual (or group of individuals) considered significantly more powerful than you.  And here's another point:

These are the same tactical concepts used by every group of players since forever.

Hit and run; focus your attacks on a weak point.  Trap an enemy, use terrain against them, etc. etc. etc.  PC parties use it against opposition; there is no reason the opposition can't use it against them, except that the GM is trying to avoid a TPK.

Oh I understand that completely and I wasn't trying to start an argument about something I agree with. I was just saying I think they could have been taken out. It makes me want to do something similiar but I'd need something a bit tougher than kolbolds.

Depends on what you had in your group for the HP. Again I'm surprised the kolbolds could even hit most of the group save for the wizard, or that they didn't have any potions to help in that situation. *shrugs*

Happy gaming!

One of the things that annoyed me till I got smart as a GM (1st ed) was that a decently high character could wander into a kobold village and slaughter them all without suffering as much as a hangnail.

The getting smart came by making the kobolds the intelligent little bastidges they are. They're individually weak and helpless and smart enough to know it. They're constant prey for larger humanoids, which is just about all of them, and they have no natural defenses.

Traps. Nets. Ropes. Hot liquids. Fire. Massed shooting. Pot-holed pathways with punji stakes. Never, ever, ever get close enough for hand-to-hand.  Great, your thief detects traps. And you stand there, easy fat target, while he disarms. and disarms and disarms and..

You're right. A kobold can't hit you, can't hit most of the group. If it fights your game.

Indeed, I won't lie my group got handed by a group of goblins though truthfully the goblin's health were pumped up with like maybe 2 levels of fighter added on but they still gave us a tough time with their layer that was run by a drow. Pesky black roses....



Anyways back to the topic, how much is a good number for the amount of security officers on hand in a firefight.

[JustADude]

Anyways back to the topic, how much is a good number for the amount of security officers on hand in a firefight.

Realistically, it depends on the company and the specific facility.

Something high-value and tempting like a weapons testing facility would probably have at least a couple dozen spread around the whole facility at any one time, including gate guards and roaming patrols of multiple meta-humans backed up by drones. Something smaller, like a production line for a toy-factory or a warehouse of consumer goods, would maybe have 3-5 guards total and some extra lightly-armed or un-armed patrol drones.

Either facility would, of course, have way bigger backup off-site waiting to bring the pain as needed.

[Zilfer]

Anyways back to the topic, how much is a good number for the amount of security officers on hand in a firefight.

Realistically, it depends on the company and the specific facility.

Something high-value and tempting like a weapons testing facility would probably have at least a couple dozen spread around the whole facility at any one time, including gate guards and roaming patrols of multiple meta-humans backed up by drones. Something smaller, like a production line for a toy-factory or a warehouse of consumer goods, would maybe have 3-5 guards total and some extra lightly-armed or un-armed patrol drones.

Either facility would, of course, have way bigger backup off-site waiting to bring the pain as needed.

So most places would have light security with on call Lonestar to bring in the trouble makers. Yeah i'm trying to get a better feel and give the runners a chance instead of instant retribution of guard's heading around. I probably have a cliche movie where there's more guards then their need to be. xD

5-6 to me doesn't seem like a lot, most runner teams could probably take them out quickly....