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Awakened combat tactics and oposition

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Mäx

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« Reply #75 on: <09-19-11/0253:23> »
- Lightning Bolt, is an Electrical attack which is always Stun damage (SR4A p.163,164)
Except when it isn't.
Like Lightning set of combat spells, that are explicitly Physical damage.
Or an adepts melee attack with elemental strike.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Pyromaster13

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« Reply #76 on: <09-21-11/0428:21> »
Going back to the physical and mana spell confusion:
Physical spells are almost always indirect spells, so thats simple to explain and understand. Shoot, roll opposed test like a ranged attack, done. Can only be cast on the physical plane so on and so forth.

Whereas the mana spells as stated in their description can "only be cast on the astral plane".  Typically the way this is solved is simply the magician astrally perceives, making the magician dual-natured and astrally perceive auras.  Allowing 'legal' targeting and spellcasting.  Thats the way I've been playing it, and thats how I make my players play it since nobody can seem to explain to me how looking at someone physically lets you target their astral aura without astral perception.  Which allows more balance in my games since it decreases the physical capabilities of the perceiving mage and leaves him/her at the mercy of astral cover like mana storms or domains much like fog and rain in physical space.

One interesting though I've always had was making a mana version of the invisibility spell, allowing you to turn your aura completely invisible to prevent mana targeting.  Yes the spell still outlines your aura with the spells mana, but then the mage has to dispell the invisibility spell first before he can target your aura,  it really sticks it to the mage since you can't indirectly fire stunballs even if you know exactly where their aura should be.



Now as for how to shut down your nasty mages lets assume a few things that are typical:
-Stunball is mastered
-Low counterspell dice
-Has Centering
-Has a few Foci
-One or two Physical spells

Now if we break down simple responses to shut those down
-Stunball
  -Mana visibility modifiers, not using this is like saying astral space is a calm and sunny day, everyday
  -Any form of counterspelling
  -Cut physical LOS
  -Any drone
  -Give the leuitenant Magic Resist 4 quality
-Low counterspell dice
  -Any mage with stunball and counterspelling
  -Spirits with magical Guard and counterspelling
  -Enemy projecting mages, chances are they aren't percieving 24/7
  -If has low banishing as well, throw an enemy possesion spirit
-Centering
  -Have a guard go "He's chanting! Mage! Call Ares anti-mage division!" and everyone evac
  -Have mage cast silence on chanter
  -Shoot the legs of the dancer
-Has a few Foci
  -Have a patrol mage spot him randomly, even when not lit it's like having alot of cyberware going through an MAD scanner.
  -Give a grunt spell knack (Disrupt sustaining focus)
  -Shoot the foci, a single bullet hit will make unusable for 90% of most runs
-One or two physical spells
  -Visibility modifiers
  -Throw dust in their eyes, forcing them to perceive astrally and not cast physically or shoot blind

Now all those are simple solutions you can throw at 'overpowered' mages, and most of them you obviously can't use all the time, but every now and then isn't bad and I'm hoping it will just give other people more ideas to add on their own.  Wards themselves aren't very useful since there are so many ways in and around it and it takes alot of time to establish, but if I read correctly there aren't any rules about stacking mana barriers over each other like from spells.

One of my favorite responses to mages that think they can just spellcast their way out of everything is after about 2-3 runs they stunball everyone on the mission that was a threat I throw a guard that recognizes the mage somehow, either trained to 'feel' for astral presences (Many high end guards are) and they call in Ares Anti-Mage squad.  That may not exist in the books, but it's damn well believable.  I typically put them as a subsidiary assisting firewatch, but thats besides the point, send in some designated anti-mage squad.

Here's how I justify it.  Regular guards are trained to secure personel and wait for back-up, not fight.  Thus the call.  Even if they are trained to fight to the death, if they KNOW that a team of mundanes can't do anything against a spirit why would they stay and fight a mage that has a reputation for destruction like that.  I make them evacuate the building and secure it from outside.  So yes the runners get what they came for, but no amount of stunballs are gonna get them out of the building with both the regular security, backup, and the newly arriving anti-mage squad, they have to give up early.

Now how I play the anti-mage squad is I have about 2 mages and 3 bodyguards for said mage.  One is a spellcaster focus and the other a spirit focus.  The spellcasters only real offensive spell is stunball as well, but has alot of anti-mage spells like disrupt sustaining focus, mana barrier, bind, offensive mana barrier, silence and the like.  I usually make the list of spells chain together like sense removal(sight)-(When they project or astrally percieve)Mana barrier (5 meters around mage)-Offensive mana barrier (2 meters around mage, causing damage if tries to get out)-Offensive mana barrier(1 meter around mage if still resisting to contain and kill astrally).  These are just my ideas and I tailor most of them to games I run or play since everyone has different rules on how each spell works.  But I think that the only real reason mages become a problem is because you don't give them enough opposition to deal with.  "There's always a bigger fish" is what I like to use.  If you're a big bad stunballing mage, then chances are theres an equally big bad stunballing mage thats not only as good at stunballing, but he can counterspell with shielding metamagic and a shielding foci.  That 14 dice pool for stunball doesn't look so tough against 22 defense pool.

wastedwalker

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« Reply #77 on: <09-21-11/1150:56> »
From the 20th core book.
Whereas the mana spells as stated in their description can "only be cast on the astral plane".  Typically the way this is solved is simply the magician astrally perceives, making the magician dual-natured and astrally perceive auras.  Allowing 'legal' targeting and spellcasting.  Thats the way I've been playing it, and thats how I make my players play it since nobody can seem to explain to me how looking at someone physically lets you target their astral aura without astral perception.  Which allows more balance in my games since it decreases the physical capabilities of the perceiving mage and leaves him/her at the mercy of astral cover like mana storms or domains much like fog and rain in physical space.

You are half right, you have to be able to see what you are targeting, so if something is astral and you are in the physical plane you two are not touching. If they are astral and you are dual you can target each other. Mana spells can be cast anywhere but they are the only spells that can hurt things that are astral. A spirit that is astral that you see while perceiving is open game to all of your mana spells. A spirit that manifests is open to your mana and physical spells but mana is best for dealing with spirits.

"A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence."

"Spell Type is either mana (M) or physical (P). Mana spells affect
their targets through the mana that permeates the astral and physical
planes—affecting the target in a magical and spiritual manner that is
only effectively resisted by the Willpower of a living or magical being.
Physical spells directly target the body; resistance relies on the target’s
Body attribute. Only mana spells can affect astral forms. Either type of
spell may be used in the physical world, but mana spells cannot affect
non-living targets."

So I was wrong, aura's can't be targeted while astral. But here is the thing you can manifest while astral, you can't be hit with anything mundane and physical, only mana spells can hit you.

Charybdis

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« Reply #78 on: <09-22-11/0607:12> »
- Lightning Bolt, is an Electrical attack which is always Stun damage (SR4A p.163,164)
Except when it isn't.
Like Lightning set of combat spells, that are explicitly Physical damage.
Or an adepts melee attack with elemental strike.
Errr, WTF is a 'Lightning set of Combat spells'?

All Lightning spells are listed as electrical attacks. Electrical attacks do Stun damage.
Logical inheritance remains consistent.

Adepts have a slight deviation in that Killing Hands gives the option to perform P or S, however the Elemental strike power says you get to utilise an elemental damage type.
Electricity damage type deals stun damage.

For the Adept, it depends on what your GM says is stronger:
- The Killing Hands power, or
- the Elemental Strike power
My view is if a PC deliberately wants an Electricity damage type, then that damage type works as written. Stun damage. However YMMV.
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Sichr

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« Reply #79 on: <09-22-11/0641:48> »
What damage type is listed RAW in Lightning bolt description? To end this pointless discussion?

FastJack

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« Reply #80 on: <09-22-11/0747:00> »
Quote from: SR4A, p. 205
These spells create and direct vicious strikes of electricity that cause Electricity damage (p. 163). Lightning Bolt is a single target spell. Ball Lightning is an area spell.


Sichr

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« Reply #81 on: <09-22-11/0755:39> »
Quote from: SR4A, p. 205
These spells create and direct vicious strikes of electricity that cause Electricity damage (p. 163). Lightning Bolt is a single target spell. Ball Lightning is an area spell.

So damage value is not listed? Even in compiled tables?

Word "vicious"...my english again...would it work with stun damage?


Phylos Fett

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« Reply #82 on: <09-22-11/0818:06> »
What damage type is listed RAW in Lightning bolt description? To end this pointless discussion?

Quote from: SR4A, p205
Lightning Bolt (Indirect, Elemental)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Damage: P • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
Ball Lightning (Indirect, Elemental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS (A) • Damage: P • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 5
These spells create and direct vicious strikes of electricity that cause
Electricity damage (p. 163). Lightning Bolt is a single target spell. Ball
Lightning is an area spell.

Sichr

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« Reply #83 on: <09-22-11/0843:04> »
What damage type is listed RAW in Lightning bolt description? To end this pointless discussion?

Quote from: SR4A, p205
Lightning Bolt (Indirect, Elemental)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Damage: P • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
Ball Lightning (Indirect, Elemental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS (A) • Damage: P • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 5
These spells create and direct vicious strikes of electricity that cause
Electricity damage (p. 163). Lightning Bolt is a single target spell. Ball
Lightning is an area spell.

OK. Problem solved. Physical damage + Elemental effect...