Shadowrun
Off-topic => Off-off-topic => Topic started by: Phylos Fett on <09-28-11/0658:07>
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The powers that be in Australia have announced that they have a 5-year plan to allow women to serve in Front Line Combat Roles in the Australian Defence Force. They have vowed that to serve in such a role will be competency based, and that they will not lower the current standards (for either gender). To me, this seems like a fair enough decision - if you're good enough to do a job, then you should be allowed to do the job.
The current objections (and of course there will always be objects) are that the enemy might rape women on the front lines, that people will react negatively as soon as the first woman gets killed in the line of duty, and that there is a need to change the culture of the military as there is a certain mind-set in place.
I'm going to ignore the rape issue. I'm not saying that it isn't an issue, I am just not going to discuss it here - if you want to, by all means start a thread about it.
I'm not going to discuss the first death objection. See above.
It is the cultural mind-set that I find interesting, and think needs exploring. Is the military the best place to change this mind-set, or should we start earlier?
A good place to start might be team sports (I'm in no way suggesting that war is like football, btw). Teams are a close knit unit, that rely on communication, skill and generally rely on team unity to be successful. If we introduced "mixed" sporting teams, where the players were selected on merit and merit alone, it might be beneficial. Start back in grade school, and get the kids used to the idea, so that it becomes second nature by the time they graduate high school and college. Get them accustomed to being selected based on their skill sets, and knowing that if you're good enough, then it doesn't matter what sex you are. Get everyone used to bonding with people based on competency. So, by the time these same people are in the military together, on the front line, they know they can trust their team mates, because they are there because they deserve to be there, just like everyone else.
Thoughts?
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Private Jenette Vasquez kicked much ass, even if she thought it was about illegal aliens. :P
Actually, very interesting points. I grew up in a rather bad part of town (Actually, for awhile, it was the worst part of town, and was the first to come to mind decades later when someone asked where the Ghetto was in the city), and a lot of the girls in my school were rougher, tougher scrappers than the boys.
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In my (limited) experience, girls are far, far nastier in a brawl than the fellas.
As for combatants, I couldn't say. They are just like any other soldier (sailor/airman/or whatever), some will excel, some will fold. It will disrupt units until everyone gets used to it though, sexual tension and whatnot, etc etc.
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What about the sexual tension now with gay soldiers able to come out and admit they are? ;)
Hell, what about sexual tension, period. We're talking about soldiers here. ;D Also, [Insert Navy Sexuality Joke Here].
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*Hangs Head* I know, I know, I'm going to be stomped for these comments.
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*stomp*
Honestly, it shouldn't matter if the troops need to relieve some tension while on duty away from home. It is human nature, and an integral part of people. As long as it doesn't interfere with completion of said duties, I would say allow it. Of course, with the whole barracks situation that can be somewhat awkward...
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By mixing teams earlier in life, hopefully sexual tensions will become less of an issue, because people will be used of said environments.
I guess we won't know until we try it (if we ever do).
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Having been an infantry soldier, seeing co-ed P.O.G. (prounounced, pough meaning Person Other than Grunt). I don't see an issue. My only exception is combat is physically taxing, the Male PT test should be the standard for combat troops, since the Female PT test is not as "tough". Their scoring you get more points for less Push-ups, sit-ups, and longer times. Either way, I don't see why they can't join.
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Heard an end-of-week wrap up on this (one of the radio stations likes to do this), and the callers repeated the objections I mentioned in the first post, but threw in a couple of interesting ones:
- What happens when a woman gets her period?
- When a woman gets injured on the front line, you would react differently because it's human nature.
I had to have a bit of a laugh (which is never a good thing when driving in traffic).
Thankfully, some callers answered these objections pretty quickly (which I had already answered in my head, anyway):
- They've invented tampons now, for this kind of thing.
- The whole point of training is to over-ride human nature in combat situations (like running away from explosions and bullets).
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i recall reading that females may well be better able to cope with extended missions.
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That'd be a definite advantage.
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In my (limited) experience, girls are far, far nastier in a brawl than the fellas.
As for combatants, I couldn't say. They are just like any other soldier (sailor/airman/or whatever), some will excel, some will fold. It will disrupt units until everyone gets used to it though, sexual tension and whatnot, etc etc.
You have no idea. I hated having to arrest women, especially drunk or high women. Ever try and take a pissed of cat, shake it up, THEN try and put into a bag? Yeah, thats about what its like, and I have the scars to prove it. Most men will kick, punch, elbow, knee, etc, it's somewhat predicatable. Women will do the same but add in biting, clawing, scratching, pulling, tugging, screaming, using jewlrey as weapons, and THEN claim you touched them inappropriately or used excessive force.
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In my (limited) experience, girls are far, far nastier in a brawl than the fellas.
As for combatants, I couldn't say. They are just like any other soldier (sailor/airman/or whatever), some will excel, some will fold. It will disrupt units until everyone gets used to it though, sexual tension and whatnot, etc etc.
You have no idea. I hated having to arrest women, especially drunk or high women. Ever try and take a pissed of cat, shake it up, THEN try and put into a bag? Yeah, thats about what its like, and I have the scars to prove it. Most men will kick, punch, elbow, knee, etc, it's somewhat predicatable. Women will do the same but add in biting, clawing, scratching, pulling, tugging, screaming, using jewlrey as weapons, and THEN claim you touched them inappropriately or used excessive force.
I have a friend that's a female cop that says pretty much the same thing - she prefers taking down 300lb men over 100lb women any day of the week.
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In my (limited) experience, girls are far, far nastier in a brawl than the fellas.
As for combatants, I couldn't say. They are just like any other soldier (sailor/airman/or whatever), some will excel, some will fold. It will disrupt units until everyone gets used to it though, sexual tension and whatnot, etc etc.
You have no idea. I hated having to arrest women, especially drunk or high women. Ever try and take a pissed of cat, shake it up, THEN try and put into a bag? Yeah, thats about what its like, and I have the scars to prove it. Most men will kick, punch, elbow, knee, etc, it's somewhat predicatable. Women will do the same but add in biting, clawing, scratching, pulling, tugging, screaming, using jewlrey as weapons, and THEN claim you touched them inappropriately or used excessive force.
I have a friend that's a female cop that says pretty much the same thing - she prefers taking down 300lb men over 100lb women any day of the week.
It's the Same in the hospital. I have had more problems tying up women then men. Been spit on, scratched, nurses have been bit, had them scream rape all sorts of things. Women are a heck of a lot crazier than men.
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In my (limited) experience, girls are far, far nastier in a brawl than the fellas.
As for combatants, I couldn't say. They are just like any other soldier (sailor/airman/or whatever), some will excel, some will fold. It will disrupt units until everyone gets used to it though, sexual tension and whatnot, etc etc.
You have no idea. I hated having to arrest women, especially drunk or high women. Ever try and take a pissed of cat, shake it up, THEN try and put into a bag? Yeah, thats about what its like, and I have the scars to prove it. Most men will kick, punch, elbow, knee, etc, it's somewhat predicatable. Women will do the same but add in biting, clawing, scratching, pulling, tugging, screaming, using jewlrey as weapons, and THEN claim you touched them inappropriately or used excessive force.
I have a friend that's a female cop that says pretty much the same thing - she prefers taking down 300lb men over 100lb women any day of the week.
It's the Same in the hospital. I have had more problems tying up women then men. Been spit on, scratched, nurses have been bit, had them scream rape all sorts of things. Women are a heck of a lot crazier than men.
Of course, one would hope that they could train them to focus the crazy if they wanted to be in a combat role in the military. ;)
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The only thing I hate worse than strapping down a woman in the ER or mental floor, is having to strap down an elderly person who is confused because of alzheimers or dementia. It always makes me feel like a bully. I hate that feeling.
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The only thing I hate worse than strapping down a woman in the ER or mental floor, is having to strap down an elderly person who is confused because of alzheimers or dementia. It always makes me feel like a bully. I hate that feeling.
That's gotta be a tough job.
Had a friend that worked with cancer patients - that took a special kind of person, too, I've gotta say.
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The only thing I hate worse than strapping down a woman in the ER or mental floor, is having to strap down an elderly person who is confused because of alzheimers or dementia. It always makes me feel like a bully. I hate that feeling.
That's gotta be a tough job.
Had a friend that worked with cancer patients - that took a special kind of person, too, I've gotta say.
I love my job, it might be tough on the heart but it's a good one. but Back on point...
I just don't see why they think that women can't perform in combat roles. it's been proven since the War on Terror that there are no front lines anymore. anybody could have to fight.
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I just don't see why they think that women can't perform in combat roles. it's been proven since the War on Terror that there are no front lines anymore. anybody could have to fight.
The primary problem, I believe, is the same as women in any other role (military or otherwise) - the old boys club. It's the same reason there are fewer women CEOs, politicians, etc.
The culture is set up to exclude women as much as possible, and it is ingrained and reinforced from year to year, rather than any reform being made. It's hard to break the cycle, because the people that are in the positions to do so seldom want to, and those that the task to do so, have been doing what they've been doing for so long, they don't feel the need to alter things. It's an unfortunate case of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Unfortunately, it is broke, but if they don't, or can't, see it that way, they'll drag their heels to avoid fixing it, or just assume that the person that steps into their role after they retire can deal with the mess. Unfortunately, the person that steps into that role has usually been trained by the person leaving it, so the cycle continues.
That's why I suggested that we attempt to change things as early as possible - early Elementary schools - so that, hopefully, the next generation that comes through doesn't have all the old boys hang ups (and it'd be nice if all the Victorian-inherited sexual repression was gone, along with the current rebellion-to-those-mores).
We'll see. The ADF is hoping to roll this out in 5 years, so it gives them a bit of time to lay some groundwork, and make some inroads. Ultimately, time will tell.
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Of course, one would hope that they could train them to focus the crazy if they wanted to be in a combat role in the military. ;)
Crazy doesn't work as well for Soldiers as it does for Warriors. It also works a lot less when you have a Assault Rifle/DMR/SAW.
Now, up close and personal with bayonets, knives, tomahawks, and entrenching tools... Yeah, you want crazy then.
Actually, women would probably make damned good "Tunnel Rats" if they still have to have people in those roles, would they not? (I'm just a dumb civvie, what do I know?).
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Ugh, now i am reminded of someone talking about motivation related to self defense. I think one of his standbys in his female classes was to tell them to imagine the attacker going after their loved ones...
As the saying goes, do not get between mama bear and her cubs...
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The Female Of The Species. (http://www.potw.org/archive/potw96.html)
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https://www.megagear.com/product_p/mt%2004-1001.htm
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Not exactly on topic, but an episode of Black Lagoon (Good Shadowrun material there, BTW) had a little girl with a dangling little dolly... On her gift wrapped BAR, which she used to wipe out the bar completely as if it was a bloody .22 SMG of some sort!
She missed one. Luckily her brother was around with a fire axe.
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Check out the recent ova, where a mini-version of the battle maid drops by.
btw, i love how "casual" the bartender gets about his bar being trashed ;)
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Of course, one would hope that they could train them to focus the crazy if they wanted to be in a combat role in the military. ;)
Crazy doesn't work as well for Soldiers as it does for Warriors. It also works a lot less when you have a Assault Rifle/DMR/SAW.
Now, up close and personal with bayonets, knives, tomahawks, and entrenching tools... Yeah, you want crazy then.
This why it's good that they have Physical and Psychological requirements. ;)
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Of course, one would hope that they could train them to focus the crazy if they wanted to be in a combat role in the military. ;)
Crazy doesn't work as well for Soldiers as it does for Warriors. It also works a lot less when you have a Assault Rifle/DMR/SAW.
Now, up close and personal with bayonets, knives, tomahawks, and entrenching tools... Yeah, you want crazy then.
The sad thing is, they don't do all the tests upon going in, sometimes someone has to see something is wrong before they start doing testing. Could be a year or 10 before someone sees something is wrong.
This why it's good that they have Physical and Psychological requirements. ;)
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Ummm, you seem to have quoted me, but then not actually said anything?
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He must have glitched.
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He must have glitched.
Perhaps he has Gremlins? ;)
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That's be pretty bad considering Arc is the name of his technomancer character.
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That's be pretty bad considering Arc is the name of his technomancer character.
:o
May Ghost have mercy on his soul...
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That's be pretty bad considering Arc is the name of his technomancer character.
:o
May Ghost have mercy on his soul...
Yeah I'm on my phone and it glitched. If you look your quote has something added to it. It attributed what I said to you.
My response to what you had said was, that they don't always test upon entry. It could be up to 10 years before someone realizes something isn't right.
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That's be pretty bad considering Arc is the name of his technomancer character.
:o
May Ghost have mercy on his soul...
Yeah I'm on my phone and it glitched. If you look your quote has something added to it. It attributed what I said to you.
My response to what you had said was, that they don't always test upon entry. It could be up to 10 years before someone realizes something isn't right.
Ahhhh - now I see.
Well, that's probably something that should be looked into - upon application to the ADF, after Basic, and before Deployment into a Combat Zone - assuming that the ADF doesn't screen like that or better.
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The only thing I hate worse than strapping down a woman in the ER or mental floor, is having to strap down an elderly person who is confused because of alzheimers or dementia. It always makes me feel like a bully. I hate that feeling.
Not to get too off topic, but, that's one of the reasons I left EMS service and focused on Law Enforcement. Gang-bangers, accidents, general blood and guts I could handle. But going into some of the worst nursing homes in my area took more out of me than any crime scene. It was like you could feel your soul being sucked out of you and the despair was palpable.
But back on topic....
Crazy? Last thing I would want is someone truly crazy fighting next to me. Someone who is able to go above and beyond some of the normal stuff we would do to protect their people and take some chances, which we would perhaps later CALL crazy, perhaps. I have seen true crazy with a weapon, and its the last person I would want to rely on, man or woman.
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The only thing I hate worse than strapping down a woman in the ER or mental floor, is having to strap down an elderly person who is confused because of alzheimers or dementia. It always makes me feel like a bully. I hate that feeling.
Not to get too off topic, but, that's one of the reasons I left EMS service and focused on Law Enforcement. Gang-bangers, accidents, general blood and guts I could handle. But going into some of the worst nursing homes in my area took more out of me than any crime scene. It was like you could feel your soul being sucked out of you and the despair was palpable.
But back on topic....
Crazy? Last thing I would want is someone truly crazy fighting next to me. Someone who is able to go above and beyond some of the normal stuff we would do to protect their people and take some chances, which we would perhaps later CALL crazy, perhaps. I have seen true crazy with a weapon, and its the last person I would want to rely on, man or woman.
Yeah the last thing you want is to find out that your battle buddy fell asleep leaving "Harvey" in charge of watching our backs.
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Hey, Harvey eats a lot of carrots. He's got good night vision! And he's a big mother, too. No one is going to mess with Harvey!
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Hey, Harvey eats a lot of carrots. He's got good night vision! And he's a big mother, too. No one is going to mess with Harvey!
Doesn't he have a brother named Frank, too? ;)
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Back to hot chicks with guns.
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I mean women in the military. ;D
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Back to hot chicks with guns.
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I mean women in the military. ;D
Which is longhand for hot chicks with guns. Even if they aren't hot without the guns, the guns make 'em hot XD
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Back to hot chicks with guns.
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I mean women in the military. ;D
Which is longhand for hot chicks with guns. Even if they aren't hot without the guns, the guns make 'em hot XD
Be very careful, gents. This isn't a boys only forum (even if it smells like it at times) and I'd rather not chase away the few cool women we have around here.
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Gents? ... Must be referring to Mason. :P
But, yes, FastJack is right. So, in the interest of keeping things even, I suggest Oiled-Up Beefcake with Guns as well!
EDIT: And with DADT gone from the US, this helps every member of the population! ;D
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*grimaces in horror at mental image.*
Whenever I hear/read the word beefcake, I always visualize Cartman from South Park. You just mentall scarred me for life!
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IF I SUFFER, EVERYBODY SUFFERS!!!
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IF I SUFFER, EVERYBODY SUFFERS!!!
I've had worse...
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What I'd like to see them to do is change the PT test to something more relevant/useful -- but make it equally difficult for both. Part of the reason for the (US) disparity is that the tested items are biased toward male structure.
For a grunt, you need to able to sprint repetitively with a load. You need to be able to do an extremely long march with a load. And you need to not be a heart attack waiting to happen.
Three tests: two physical, one physiological (in three parts).
Physiological test 1a. Blood pressure.
Physical test one: with 20 pound ruck/vest load plus rifle and helmet, from prone position get up, sprint 10 meters, drop to prone. Repeat ten times within determined period of time.
Physiological test 1b. Blood pressure, timed to determine when pressure returns to 1a plus 5%.
Physical test two: With 40 pound ruck/vest load plus rifle and helmet, 5 miles within predetermined period of time.
Physiological test 1c. See test 1b.
Physiological tests: resting blood pressure cannot be above (limit to be determined). blood pressure must drop to level in acceptable time.
Fitness and basic requirements. Just my two cents.
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What are the current Physical requirements?
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In the US Army, it's pushups, situps, and 2 mile run. The numbers you need decrease as you get older, and they're lower for women than for men. A LOT lower on pushups, sorta lower on situps, between those for the run.
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In the US Army, it's pushups, situps, and 2 mile run. The numbers you need decrease as you get older, and they're lower for women than for men. A LOT lower on pushups, sorta lower on situps, between those for the run.
Really? That seems a touch - odd. I can see how they might want something simple to assess fitness levels of applicants to the US Army, but as an ongoing benchmark that would be less than ideal.
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ah, found the numbers. Male 18 year old minimum: 42 pushups, 53 situps, 15:54 2 mile run. Female 18 year old minimums: 19 pushups (no, not a typo), 53 situps, 18:54 2 mile run.
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ah, found the numbers. Male 18 year old minimum: 42 pushups, 53 situps, 15:54 2 mile run. Female 18 year old minimums: 19 pushups (no, not a typo), 53 situps, 18:54 2 mile run.
That's a big drop in numbers.
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ah, found the numbers. Male 18 year old minimum: 42 pushups, 53 situps, 15:54 2 mile run. Female 18 year old minimums: 19 pushups (no, not a typo), 53 situps, 18:54 2 mile run.
That's a big drop in numbers.
Yeah, that's why I say if women want to be in combat MOS positions, they need to pass the Male PT test. It is a very physical job.
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ah, found the numbers. Male 18 year old minimum: 42 pushups, 53 situps, 15:54 2 mile run. Female 18 year old minimums: 19 pushups (no, not a typo), 53 situps, 18:54 2 mile run.
That's a big drop in numbers.
Yeah, that's why I say if women want to be in combat MOS positions, they need to pass the Male PT test. It is a very physical job.
Except as I also noted, it's a poor test for what it's supposed to be testing. and yes, I've been there.
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ah, found the numbers. Male 18 year old minimum: 42 pushups, 53 situps, 15:54 2 mile run. Female 18 year old minimums: 19 pushups (no, not a typo), 53 situps, 18:54 2 mile run.
That's a big drop in numbers.
Yeah, that's why I say if women want to be in combat MOS positions, they need to pass the Male PT test. It is a very physical job.
I know that's how they plan to do things in the ADF. And, so far, they are claiming that they won't lower the standards/requirements...
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ah, found the numbers. Male 18 year old minimum: 42 pushups, 53 situps, 15:54 2 mile run. Female 18 year old minimums: 19 pushups (no, not a typo), 53 situps, 18:54 2 mile run.
That's a big drop in numbers.
Yeah, that's why I say if women want to be in combat MOS positions, they need to pass the Male PT test. It is a very physical job.
Except as I also noted, it's a poor test for what it's supposed to be testing. and yes, I've been there.
From what I understand of the ADF, they have full-pack marches and the like that are apparently real killers - not only do a high proportion of females fail, but a significant proportion of males fail, as well. I think the term they throw around is that they get "medically discharged".
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18 minute mile? That gives you like 1 lap to walk >.> holy cow!
As for the push up's I must admit to feeling quite inadequet for the push ups section. :P Once I get to 15 it starts to become hard. 25 is about when i want to give up. (I could probably push a few more out but you know the MIND gives up before the BODY does... or so i'm told)
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18 minute mile? That gives you like 1 lap to walk >.> holy cow!
That's for 2 miles.
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18 minute mile? That gives you like 1 lap to walk >.> holy cow!
That's for 2 miles.
ok that makes it much better then xD. Lol makes me feel worse is I have generally a 10-12 minute mile. XD Of course I've never jogged the whole time either so. XD
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18 minute mile? That gives you like 1 lap to walk >.> holy cow!
That's for 2 miles.
ok that makes it much better then xD. Lol makes me feel worse is I have generally a 10-12 minute mile. XD Of course I've never jogged the whole time either so. XD
Well, if they ever bring back conscription, then you'll be safe in the knowledge that you aren't fit enough for a combat role. ;)
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I'm content that I'm not even fit enough for a clerical role if there's a draft. :P
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I'm content that I'm not even fit enough for a clerical role if there's a draft. :P
Physically, or otherwise? ;)
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Yes.
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A young whipper-snapper like you?
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I'm not a woman, back on topic.
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I know that's how they plan to do things in the ADF. And, so far, they are claiming that they won't lower the standards/requirements...
It said that they wouldn't lower the current requirements, but it didn't say that the current requirements aren't set by gender. Was that discussed, whether it would be one standard for all applicants?
Personally, I'm not a fan of the fact that, for the US army, what passes as the lower end of a "good" score for a woman is a failing score for a man. Double standards erode morale and endanger soldiers. Either an applicant needs to be able run at least 2 miles in 15 minutes with full kit on, or they don't. Genitalia just don't factor in to that.
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I know that's how they plan to do things in the ADF. And, so far, they are claiming that they won't lower the standards/requirements...
It said that they wouldn't lower the current requirements, but it didn't say that the current requirements aren't set by gender. Was that discussed, whether it would be one standard for all applicants?
Personally, I'm not a fan of the fact that, for the US army, what passes as the lower end of a "good" score for a woman is a failing score for a man. Double standards erode morale and endanger soldiers. Either an applicant needs to be able run at least 2 miles in 15 minutes with full kit on, or they don't. Genitalia just don't factor in to that.
The requirements are going to be the same for both genders, and they are going to be set at the current levels for men. That's the current information that I have. Given that they have 5 years to hash this out for the ADF, anything could happen. 5 years is a long time in politics (the federal government could change hands twice by then).
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Having been an infantry soldier, seeing co-ed P.O.G. (prounounced, pough meaning Person Other than Grunt). I don't see an issue. My only exception is combat is physically taxing, the Male PT test should be the standard for combat troops, since the Female PT test is not as "tough". Their scoring you get more points for less Push-ups, sit-ups, and longer times. Either way, I don't see why they can't join.
Pretty much my thinking. I've known some WMs I'd much be on the pointy end of the stick with than the foxtrot uniforms I was occaisonally "gifted" with. And considering how SAWs have gotten lighter there isn't a role a woman can't perform equally to a man.
Just remember this one important fact though: WM PT test > Army male PT test ;)