[Marcus]

Kind of a tangent, but Assensing isn't a duplication of Perception for the Astral.

This part doesn't actually make any sense SSDR, what did you really mean there?

I believe he was argue your use of perception negated the need for assensing. So you don't actually address his point at all.

[mbisber]

Some very good points MB.

And, of course, all one has to do to keep 'Perceiving Magic' on p.280 in context is to look at 'Using Perception' itself on p.135. 'If someone is deliberately trying to hide from you, they'll oppose your test with their own skill (Using Stealth Skills, p.136). So, the F-6 equation may further be compromised by any or all of the Stealth skill group.

So, as I said, one cannot say that one SR equation (that on p.280 here) is etched in stone in its own isolation where words/variables are not present or stated (and may be modified elsewhere).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Kind of a tangent, but Assensing isn't a duplication of Perception for the Astral.

This part doesn't actually make any sense SSDR, what did you really mean there?

I believe he was argue your use of perception negated the need for assensing. So you don't actually address his point at all.

No, as I've said in this thread repeatedly the rule never says a successful perception tells you anything about the magic other than the binary condition of it being present.  Therefore there's a quite obvious a role for Assensing in figuring out just what actually caused the shimmer/chill/feeling of dread/etc.

[Senko]

So, I've looked through the posts twice on this topic. While the F-6 equation (p.280) was, no doubt, well-intended, it's wording and description is unfortunate.

Like some such equations in SR, it's a generality for flavor. In the first place, what's so sacrosanct about F-6 in a Magic context!? Why not F-5 or F-7? Is it just arbitrary or is there an explanation? If it is arbitrary, then GMs should just house-rule their sentiments in one way or another, up or down. If there is an explanation, then let's have it!

While it may be comforting to have arbitrary rules in RPGs, I am playing Shadowrun rather than D&D, because I like rules to make more sense rather than less.

Then there are words like obvious, noticing, performing, spotting, etc. All of these terms are mostly visual. Please explain to me how smell, hearing, touch, and taste are all related to F-6?

It is not my purpose to go through the posts here, idea by idea, or even limit addressing Perception to visual. If one looks at Concealment, p.395, it subtracts dice for all senses. So, the equation on p.280 is, as I say, unfortunate.

Like many equations in SR, there are words/variables often left out, which may be found elsewhere. Sometimes 'Counterspelling' appears in spell equations and  sometimes it does not; but it is almost always implicit.

I'm sure that there are other words/variables missing in SR equations elsewhere as well. But, in my opinion, if Magic causes shimmer, chills, dread, etc. then why do we have something called Assensing?

HMMM . . .

GM: "You smell the colour green."
Player: "There's magic afoot to the scooby mobile."

[mbisber]

It might be reasonable that Assensing could account for 'chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations'. But, then, the Rules say that one cannot default with that skill.

But, sensations, as in the five senses, whether they be natural or unnatural, may be environmental, as, for example, ozone, air pressure, or sound waves, from a Lightning Bolt. If active player Perception might be problematical, a threshold may be reached to cause the GM to request a dice roll for passive  Perception.

And, Spells may have different thresholds, as further explained on p. 292 for resisting/overcoming Manipulation, and elsewhere for others. And, of course, it is up to the GM to evaluate and adjudicate the overall situation at hand.



 

[Marcus]

HMMM . . .

GM: "You smell the colour green."
Player: "There's magic afoot to the scooby mobile."

LOL I'm crying here LOL.

[Overbyte]

I've come to this thread late, but I've read all of it and the opinions are interesting.
Regardless of what you believe the rules actually say I have to side with the peeps that say that allowing all magic to be perceptible is very problematic. The Invisibility spell is really not even the best example as to why.

Think instead about the Mask or Physical Mask spell.
You cast this spell at the highest force possible (let's say 6 for this argument) so that others have the lowest chance to see through it. But now you walk down the hall attempting to fool the guard and as soon as you get near him (I'll assume you must be near for him to "feel" the magic for this example as well) he automatically (because 6 - 6 = 0) gets a feeling magic is in play.  He doesn't know why, but it happened when you got close.

You are done.

This seems highly problematic
And with the 6 - F roll, any spell that is greater than Force 3 can be sensed by the most average of people (6 dice = average 2 hits). That's in direct conflict with any idea that people only notice "strong" magic or it takes some special training.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Xenon]

...he automatically (because 6 - 6 = 0)

Unless you are using Astral Perception it will not (never) be so obvious you don't even need to take a test.

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
...minimum 1 in either case...

But, yeah, it will not very hard to get a case of "Bad Vibes" if a magician is casting an influence spell on you at a force that match his spellcasting ability or if you walk through a force 6+ ward.

If you wan't to cast magic without getting detected (twitchy fingers) you might want to cast it at a low force and break the limit with reagents (doesn't work for all spells).

[Hobbes]

...he automatically (because 6 - 6 = 0)

Unless you are using Astral Perception it will not (never) be so obvious you don't even need to take a test.

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
...minimum 1 in either case...

But, yeah, it will not very hard to get a case of "Bad Vibes" if a magician is casting an influence spell on you at a force that match his spellcasting ability or if you walk through a force 6+ ward.

If you wan't to cast magic without getting detected (twitchy fingers) you might want to cast it at a low force and break the limit with reagents (doesn't work for all spells).

Or, crazy thought, raise your Spellcasting.  Just sayin. 

Force 3 is enough to beat most folks spell resistance, they're only throwing 6 dice.  You were never sneaking past anyone with Astral Perception without a huge investment.  Illusion and Manipulation spells are to bypass/beat un-named Mooks and standard security.  Named NPCs will spend edge to resist the spell (or should) and have some kind of magical back up to protect them, otherwise any Mage just wins the encounter.

Mundanes spotting a sustained/quickened spell, sure whatever, but what are they going to do about it?  You're a Mage, they're not, if they don't have Magical back up you win anyway.

I guess I'm not seeing the point.  If whatever objective your runners are hitting doesn't have Magic security, the Mage should be able to dominate the muggles.  If there is Magical Security, the Mage needs to beat that anyway, who cares if the night guard gets the hiebie-jeebies.

[Marcus]

...he automatically (because 6 - 6 = 0)

Unless you are using Astral Perception it will not (never) be so obvious you don't even need to take a test.

SR5 p. 280 Perceiving Magic
...minimum 1 in either case...

But, yeah, it will not very hard to get a case of "Bad Vibes" if a magician is casting an influence spell on you at a force that match his spellcasting ability or if you walk through a force 6+ ward.

It's not that a mage probably couldn't ruffle stomp some muggle security, but how many times do you wanna do that in one session? How many times can you do it before you start attracting attention you really don't want. Stomp enough security guard even if you never actually kill anyone, sooner or later the magic police will catch up with you.

If you wan't to cast magic without getting detected (twitchy fingers) you might want to cast it at a low force and break the limit with reagents (doesn't work for all spells).

Or, crazy thought, raise your Spellcasting.  Just sayin. 

Force 3 is enough to beat most folks spell resistance, they're only throwing 6 dice.  You were never sneaking past anyone with Astral Perception without a huge investment.  Illusion and Manipulation spells are to bypass/beat un-named Mooks and standard security.  Named NPCs will spend edge to resist the spell (or should) and have some kind of magical back up to protect them, otherwise any Mage just wins the encounter.

Mundanes spotting a sustained/quickened spell, sure whatever, but what are they going to do about it?  You're a Mage, they're not, if they don't have Magical back up you win anyway.

I guess I'm not seeing the point.  If whatever objective your runners are hitting doesn't have Magic security, the Mage should be able to dominate the muggles.  If there is Magical Security, the Mage needs to beat that anyway, who cares if the night guard gets the hiebie-jeebies.

It's dangerous to accept the precedent. I know we have reduced this to the nebulous concept, but the fact is, it's not hiebie-jeebies, or tasting the color purple. Those NPC are seeing some kind of Mana effect bleeding through. If sworn in under oath, in legal sense they can identify that magic was going on. Yes that may only be circumstantial, but countless prosecutors good and bad have gotten people killed on circumstantial evidence. 

Did you read the section on what NPC security is supposed to do if they "detect magic"? It wasn't a problem when that meant you were casting right the hell in front of them. But is HUGE problem if they begin those actions based upon some buff you have active, never mind an actual illusion effect you were using to try and get past them.

This not, oh well who cares, this is low level security npc detecting magic. This is serous, and it will have serious consequences at the table.

[ShadowcatX]

Or, crazy thought, raise your Spellcasting.  Just sayin. 

Force 3 is enough to beat most folks spell resistance, they're only throwing 6 dice.  You were never sneaking past anyone with Astral Perception without a huge investment.  Illusion and Manipulation spells are to bypass/beat un-named Mooks and standard security.  Named NPCs will spend edge to resist the spell (or should) and have some kind of magical back up to protect them, otherwise any Mage just wins the encounter.

Mundanes spotting a sustained/quickened spell, sure whatever, but what are they going to do about it?  You're a Mage, they're not, if they don't have Magical back up you win anyway.

I guess I'm not seeing the point.  If whatever objective your runners are hitting doesn't have Magic security, the Mage should be able to dominate the muggles.  If there is Magical Security, the Mage needs to beat that anyway, who cares if the night guard gets the hiebie-jeebies.

I think that's because you are approaching this from a D&D mindset "got to beat the encounter" as it were. This isn't D&D, this is Shadowrun, if there is an encounter a good portion of the time you've already lost.

[Hobbes]

Did you read the section on what NPC security is supposed to do if they "detect magic"? It wasn't a problem when that meant you were casting right the hell in front of them. But is HUGE problem if the begin those actions based upon some buff you have active, never mind an actual illusion effect you were used to try and get past them.

This not, oh well who cares, this is low level security npc detecting magic. This is serous, and it will have serious consequences at the table.

IIRC the Detecting Magic section was specific in how non-specific the results of the Perception test results were.  You can't pick the Mage out of a crowd.  You don't know there is someone invisible in the room.  If the NPC fails the spell defense test the spell still works. 

Sure the NPC can hit an alarm button.  Now what?  Unless there is some visible consequence of the magic that can be tied back to the Awakened character... what exactly is happening?  Security companies get false alarms all the time.  If there isn't something identifiable happening, there isn't anything for the NPC to do.  Bob shuffling off all Zombie-like "uhh... Fizzygoo....uhh...."  sure, you've got some action items there.  But just hitting the panic button and getting all the Muggles worked up doesn't stop invisible guy from ghosting on through them all, because they don't know there is someone invisible running around.  They know the front desk guy got the chills. 

I can't see a real game situation where someplace without any Magic security can do anything about it.  If there is Magic security, the sustained and/or active use of powers will get spotted. 

[Senko]

The issue is in a lot of secure facilities they won’t care if the guy at the front desk got the Heebie jeebies because they’d rather a thousand false positive over one negative. So the instant that alarm is tripped you can forget about the invisible guy ghosting through them or the face under a physical mask fooling them or whatever you were actually trying. Alarms will be going off, security doors will be sealing, backup will be arriving, computers will save work and shut down. Then if they see nothing the corps mage will start checking for magic (which leaves a trace even if you are gone).

This is a modern world where magic is a known quantity and corporate secrets are bought and sold on a regular basis. If subtle magic isn’t subtle then you cut out a huge chunk of its usefulness.

[Marcus]

IIRC the Detecting Magic section was specific in how non-specific the results of the Perception test results were.  You can't pick the Mage out of a crowd.  You don't know there is someone invisible in the room.  If the NPC fails the spell defense test the spell still works. 

Sure the NPC can hit an alarm button.  Now what?  Unless there is some visible consequence of the magic that can be tied back to the Awakened character... what exactly is happening?  Security companies get false alarms all the time.  If there isn't something identifiable happening, there isn't anything for the NPC to do.  Bob shuffling off all Zombie-like "uhh... Fizzygoo....uhh...."  sure, you've got some action items there.  But just hitting the panic button and getting all the Muggles worked up doesn't stop invisible guy from ghosting on through them all, because they don't know there is someone invisible running around.  They know the front desk guy got the chills. 

I can't see a real game situation where someplace without any Magic security can do anything about it.  If there is Magic security, the sustained and/or active use of powers will get spotted.

When the guy is right in front of you picking him out of the crowd is unnecessary, or if the crowd is the team it also doesn't matter if they know which one the protocol is still triggered. If this works, then the security is trained in how to handle it. Like I said what they are sensing is a mana effect, that is going specific enough to start the whole thing off.

As to not seeing if you see a guy then walkout and he has sense used invisibility to disappear then they know something is wrong that magic is involved. That's all they need to begin a search. Call the dogs, they can track down the target. Before this all that would have happened is they would checked it out and found nothing, and would moved on.

I'm at loss as to how you can't forsee see such a situation. How many times have people used magic in your game to get passed a check point, or bypass security? I can't count the number at my tables, or how many of my characters have done so. It's a many times many, and most of those situations would have gonna completely differently if perception worked as they want it to.

[Overbyte]

Or, crazy thought, raise your Spellcasting.  Just sayin. 

But that won't help because they are not seeing the spellcasting, this is just noticing active magic.
Or are we (you) now saying that whenever you roll to notice existing magic you go back to the original spellcasting skill.
This certainly doesn't follow from the examples in the books (although I understand the argument).
But even if you say that the roll is still going to be 2 if your spellcasting is 8.

Force 3 is enough to beat most folks spell resistance, they're only throwing 6 dice.  You were never sneaking past anyone with Astral Perception without a huge investment.  Illusion and Manipulation spells are to bypass/beat un-named Mooks and standard security.  Named NPCs will spend edge to resist the spell (or should) and have some kind of magical back up to protect them, otherwise any Mage just wins the encounter.

But now you are saying mages have to start thinking about throwing their spell with juuuuust enough Force to fool their targets and juuuust little enough not to be noticed. That's a fine needle to be threading when you are not sure of your target (or targets).

And then back to the roll. If the Force is 3.. 6-F = 3, which is not that hard to get on 6 dice. Or  6 - 3 = 3 dice if you have Spellcasting 6 which presumably is a pretty damn good skill.

Mundanes spotting a sustained/quickened spell, sure whatever, but what are they going to do about it?  You're a Mage, they're not, if they don't have Magical back up you win anyway.

Ruin your plan? Hit the panic button? Call for backup? Put the place into lockdown.
Presumably all things you were trying to avoid by using magic to be subtle.

I guess I'm not seeing the point.  If whatever objective your runners are hitting doesn't have Magic security, the Mage should be able to dominate the muggles.  If there is Magical Security, the Mage needs to beat that anyway, who cares if the night guard gets the hiebie-jeebies.

Point is, IMO, the interpretation where everyone gets a roll to see magic anytime it is present is going to make using magic more of a hindrance than a help in a lot of situations where there are spells specifically to circumvent such problems (illusion).

This is a modern world where magic is a known quantity and corporate secrets are bought and sold on a regular basis. If subtle magic isn’t subtle then you cut out a huge chunk of its usefulness.

I'm with Senko here. If you have trained guards, they will have training on how to deal with what they perceive as a magical threat they can't see. Many of the arguments keep going back to the "you can't do anything about an invisible guy even if you have a feeling there is magic", but that is why I used a different example. And there are many different ones that will screw you if you are using any illusion magic that is not invisible. And as I say above.. there is plenty they can do to make things much harder if they suspect they've been breached.