[Overbyte]

Since there seem to be a few threads about the astral right now I thought I'd add another that I've been thinking about a lot since I have a dual-natured player in my game.

What do you see (what information do you get) when you are just casually looking around in astral space?

If we look at the Assensing Table on SR5 p.313 it seems to imply that you really can't tell anything specific about the auras you see unless you make a specific Assensing test on that particular aura.

Example: There is a mage (not in astral space) who has 3 foci.

Can you tell they have 3 foci since they all have auras (p.318)?
Yes. Assuming the foci auras aren't blocked by their aura. (Like their weapon focus is behind them)

Can you tell which foci are active since they have astral forms (p.318) and not just auras?
Yes. You can tell the difference between an aura and an actual astral form.

Can you tell if they are astrally perceiving?
Yes. Same as above since they would have an astral form and not just an aura.

Can you tell if he is a mage?
Not if they aren't astrally perceiving since that requires 1 success on Assensing table.
You could assume that they are magically active since they have foci but you can't tell directly.

Can you tell they are dual natured?
Probably not? You'd probably have to assense them to know this. Just like knowing they are Awakened or not (1 success, maybe more?).

Other stuff?

[Jack_Spade]

"With the skill of Assensing, you can interpret the “colors” and “brightness” of an aura to determine the wellness and state of being of the subject.[...]
While astral perception allows an Awakened character to sense the astral plane, actually interpreting what you’re looking at takes practice. Interpreting auras to gain information about the person or thing to which they belong is called Assensing."

I think that's the central statement here.

So
Can you tell they have 3 foci since they all have auras (p.318)?
Yes and no. You can count them if they are not within another aura. Differentiating the different auras is "interpreting what you're looking at".

Can you tell which foci are active since they have astral forms (p.318) and not just auras?
No. Differentiating between mundane and awakened auras takes 1 hit on assensing

Can you tell if they are astrally perceiving?
No. That's definitely "interpreting what you're looking at".

Can you tell if he is a mage?
No. Differentiating between mundane and awakened auras takes 1 hit on assensing

Can you tell they is dual natured?
No. Same reason as with #3. Astrally perceiving is the same as being dual-natured.

[Xenon]

Astral Perception is not really "seeing". A blind person can use astral perception. It have nothing to do with your "eyes". Also, a being that have both an astral form and a physical form at the same time = Dual Natured. For example, an adept that is using Astral Perception = Dual Natured.

Game mechanic wise astral perception is not unlike regular perception. You don't need to spend a simple action to observe in detail to notice someone running towards you with something in his hand, but you might need to spend a simple action to observe the subject to find out if he is friend or foe or what he is actually holding in his hand. Same thing in the astral. It would be directly obvious if the object is living or not or if it have an astral form or not. You can tell that by just glancing at a crowd without focusing at all. But to tell if a the living aura belong to an awakened or mundane character you need to focus on the aura for a split second. Having said that, once you spend time to actually look at the aura it is quite obvious if an aura belong to an awakened or mundane character (it is basically as easy to notice as it is for your regular perception to notice a neon sign or a running crowd).


@Jack,
There are differences between
1. an object that is not magic nor living (which lack aura - they are grey, lifeless, and intangible... like opaque shadows)
2. an object that is living (which have an aura - shining, vibrant, colorful intangible luminescence)
3. an object that is actively magic (which have it's own astral form - tangible and more colorful and brighter than auras, as they are astrally “real.”)

If a magician that is not using astral perception nor astral projection carry 3 active focus then you will see a shining, vibrant, colorful living aura which might or might not belong to an awakened character (you need to spend a simple action to find out) and you also see 3 distinct bright and tangible "real" astral forms that are the foci. From the astral (if you for example are projecting) you cannot interact with the intangible aura but you can interact with the 3 astral forms. The 3 foci will be tangible.

[Overbyte]

See.. it's not so simple!

But Jack seems to think you can't tell the difference between an aura and an astral form without assensing. I certainly don't feel that way.
It seems those two things would be immediately obvious, e.g. - the difference between a person (not in the astral plane) and a spirit in the astral plane. The first is just an aura, the second is an actual astral form. Although I'm not sure there is anything in the books that explicitly says this, it is just my opinion and Jack could be right.

@Xenon
In your description I assume you mean that all three foci are activated and therefore have astral forms. Otherwise they are just auras.
But you seem to think that you can't distinguish all those auras clumped together (the mage and his foci) unless you make an assensing roll, and I could definitely see this being the case although it certainly is not made clear in the book. The Assensing Table seems to be based on assensing a single aura and determining everything about that single aura.

[Jack_Spade]

I'd say, you are still "interpreting what you are looking at". Making distinctions between mundane auras and magic auras is definitely something that needs some processing on your part.

The only thing you can distinguish at a glance is non-living grey from colored aura.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'm of the opinion that you'd still use perception for all the things in the astral that you would for all the things in the physical.  E.G. detecting subtle presences, noticing that one particular thing among the many others is important, even detecting someone trying to sneak.    The skill description for Assensing only says it's for interpreting auras, so I chose to believe that's what it means.  You "spot" things with Perception, then you "read" their details via Assensing.

Of course the rules for environmental perception checks are written for the physical plane, so you'd have to use your own reasonableness to figure out what sorts of things are so obvious that a perception check is unnecessary.  For example a bare room with nothing but a person hiding in it and a light bulb dangling from the ceiling illuminating the room.  In the physical, the light bulb is painfully obvious to see as the room would otherwise be dark without its presence/activation.  No check needed to spot a lit light bulb in a barren room, but the sneaking person attempting to hide might be ruled to get one (depending on how barren that hypothetical room actually is).  But from the astral, it's reversed.  The living thing is "illuminating" the room, and plainly obvious whereas the nonliving light bulb, should it be relevant for some reason, would require a perception check to detect from the astral.

[Xenon]

There is a clear distinct difference between a living aura and an astral form. p. 312 Auras and Astral Forms explain this, but there are more places.

Although I'm not sure there is anything in the books that explicitly says this

Living beings basically just cast a colorful blurred reflection of themselves in the astral plane (=Aura).

A spirit is tangible, sharp and "real" and it is also more colorful and brighter than an aura (=Astral Form).

You don't need to take a test to realize if is just a living object on the physical plane that cast a reflection in the astral or if it is actually an astral entity with a real astral form that you can interact with. It is obvious.

But you seem to think that you can't distinguish all those auras clumped together

No, I believe that the 3 foci will be obvious to distinguish from the aura of the owner (if they are active that is). Their Astral Forms will be brighter, more colorful and most of all they will all be "real" in the astral plane (while the aura of the owner is not).

Making distinctions between mundane auras and magic auras is definitely something that needs some processing on your part.

Yes. You need to take a look to find out if the living aura you are looking at belong to an awakened character or a mundane character.

No. You don't need to take a look to find out if the sword is non magic and not living (and thus doesn't have an aura) or if it is a deactivated focus (because it will have an aura) or if it is an active weapon focus (because it will be "real" in the astral- it will be dual natured- it will have an astral form).

There is a difference between a magic aura (the aura of a non-active focus or the aura of an awakened character) and an astral form (the form of a projecting magician, the form of an active weapon focus, the form of a spirit).

The only thing you can distinguish at a glance is non-living grey from colored aura.

...and actual real astral forms

[adzling]

I'm of the opinion that you'd still use perception for all the things in the astral that you would for all the things in the physical.

this is 100% incorrect.

you replace Perception with Assensing when Astrally Perceiving.

The only exception is naturally Dual-Natured critters can use Perception in lieu of Assensing.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'm of the opinion that you'd still use perception for all the things in the astral that you would for all the things in the physical.

this is 100% incorrect.

you replace Perception with Assensing when Astrally Perceiving.

The only exception is naturally Dual-Natured critters can use Perception in lieu of Assensing.

Citation for Assensing taking the place of Perception on the Astral Plane?

I can't cite a negative.  All Assensing does is let you interpret Auras that you have found/are so easy to see they don't require a Perception check to find. The skill description for Assensing never says it replaces Perception for the astral plane.  Ergo, the argument that it doesn't.   OTOH, I'll cite the Concealment critter power (SR5 pg 395)  It does not penalize Assensing tests only Perception tests.  Again, doesn't make sense if you're using Assensing in place of Perception to perceive people astrally under benefit of the Concealment power.

[Xenon]

you replace Perception with Assensing when Astrally Perceiving.

Agreed.

For example you use Assensing to spot the astral signature (unique fingerprint left behind by the magician casting the spell). You use Assensing when you spend an action to Observe in Detail. You use Assensing when a target is trying to hide. You use Assensing when trying to locate your body if someone moved it while you where out. You use Assensing to follow the astral link between spirits, spells, foci, magical lodges etc and the responsible magician.

A magician or adept have normal perception until they shift to astral perception. While they are using astral perception they only have access to astral perception until they shift back again. Shifting between normal perception and astral perception or astral to physical is a simple action. Astrally perceiving while trying to accomplish mundane tasks is very distracting; you take a –2 dice pool penalty to actions on the physical plane.

Naturally dual natured critters is an exception to this as they are using both astral perception and physical perception at the same time and they don't have to (can't) shift between the two. A magician that use astral projection only have astral perception until he return to his physical body. A spirits only have access to astral perception, even after they materialize and become dual natured.

And again. Astral Perception is not really "vision". You can be blind and still have no issues using astral perception. You don't need eyes at all. While you use astral perception you don't "see" the real world (except if you are a natural dual natured critter). When someone use astral perception I like to think that the subject close their eyes or that their eyes roll back so you only see the white part of the eyes. If you are not using astral perception nor astral projection you roll Perception + Intuition [Mental] to notice things. When you use astral perception or astral projection you roll Assensing + Intuition [Astral] to notice things.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'd go on, but I realized something.  Perception, unlike most active skills, can already be largely substituted by other skills without requiring the GM's agreement or attending dice pool penalties as listed under the optional rules sidebar for Substituting skills on pg 130.  Using Sneaking+Intuition instead of Perception+Intuition to spot someone trying to sneak is an explicit example called out by the rulebook (pg 136).   Now technically that's saying that Stealth skills can be used in Place of perception, and while there's no analogous rule for Assensing, I suppose it's totally reasonable to say that there should be one... as I'm having trouble finding it at the moment but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing another substitution for Perception in the case of Electronic Warfare (Sensor Operations) for remotely piloting/being jumped in to vehicles/drones.

Because afterall if someone is trying to hide from an astral perciever, there's no harm in transferring any perception penalties (that would be appropriate for the astral environment) to the 1st Assensing test to first "perceive/find" the aura, then of course assuming the would-be sneak was successfully spotted then a 2nd Assensing test would be necessary to "read" the aura as described in the skill description.

[Xenon]

In the matrix you use Matrix Perception which is resolved with Computer + Intuition [Data Processing]

In the astral you use Astral Perception which is resolved with Assenssing + Intuition [Astral]

In the physical world you use [Physical] Perception which is resolved with Perception + Intuition [Mental]

if someone is trying to hide from an astral perciever

SR5 p. 312 Astral Perception
Like physical perception, you don’t need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easy to spot). You only need to roll the dice when your target is trying to hide

An adept or magician that use Astral Perception cannot also use [Physical] Perception at the same time. You can either only sense the astral plane with intangible gray shadows and auras in different colors around you or use your eyes to actually "see" the physical plane for what it really is. You can't do both at the same time (the only exception to this are Naturally Dual Natured Critters). It take a simple action to switch between the two.

Most modifiers applicable to using eyes to "see" in the physical plane (such as darkness or smoke etc) doesn't really apply once you close your eyes and switch to astral perception...

[mbisber]

I can agree with most everything said here. And, noting this below:

Perception, unlike most active skills, can already be largely substituted by other skills without requiring the GM's agreement or attending dice pool penalties as listed under the optional rules sidebar for Substituting skills on pg 130.  Using Sneaking+Intuition instead of Perception+Intuition to spot someone trying to sneak is an explicit example called out by the rulebook (pg 136).   Now technically that's saying that Stealth skills can be used in Place of perception, and while there's no analogous rule for Assensing, I suppose it's totally reasonable to say that there should be one... as I'm having trouble finding it at the moment but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing another substitution for Perception in the case of Electronic Warfare (Sensor Operations) for remotely piloting/being jumped in to vehicles/drones.

Because afterall if someone is trying to hide from an astral perciever, there's no harm in transferring any perception penalties (that would be appropriate for the astral environment) to the 1st Assensing test to first "perceive/find" the aura, then of course assuming the would-be sneak was successfully spotted then a 2nd Assensing test would be necessary to "read" the aura as described in the skill description.

And, of course, it may be possible that the 1st and 2nd Assensing tests could fail, through a Stealth Skill applicable in the Astral, through one or more Metamagics, and/or via the threshold test p.312, Assensing + Magic [Astral] 3.

And, of course, non-living objects, grey. lifeless, and intangible,  may be utilized to assist with Stealth, by hiding behind them, or even proactively by moving along behind them as they are moved!

I forget where it says that the 'aura' extends beyond surface of the non-living full-body armor, but clearly there must be a limit to this distance. 

[Marcus]

I'm of the opinion that you'd still use perception for all the things in the astral that you would for all the things in the physical.

this is 100% incorrect.

you replace Perception with Assensing when Astrally Perceiving.

The only exception is naturally Dual-Natured critters can use Perception in lieu of Assensing.

Why? When someone is perceiving they are dual-natured. I don't really have opinion on this ether way. But perception is not purely visual anymore then Assensing is. So I'm confused as to why this is the case as SSDR is correct in that Assensing does say it for interpreting auras.

[Overbyte]

SR5 p. 312 Astral Perception
Like physical perception, you don’t need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easy to spot). You only need to roll the dice when your target is trying to hide

This is a good catch (actually on page 313). Combined with this:

SR5 p.312
Anything active on the astral plane, including spirits, active foci, dual-natured beings, etc., has a tangible astral form. These forms are more colorful and brighter than auras, as they are astrally “real.”

Makes me agree with everything Xenon (and others) said.

1) Always use Astral Perception in the astral (although the only skill is called Assensing)
2) You can easily tell auras from astral forms.

It's not perfectly clear if auras can hide behind other auras or astral forms.
We do have to remember that Astral Perception is NOT visual and therefore does not obey visual rules, although auras and forms ARE blocked by non-astral things like walls. A bit of a conundrum.