Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: tarbaand on <02-09-22/1613:40>

Title: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: tarbaand on <02-09-22/1613:40>
Has anyone made a character they think is decent in 6E which didn't have Attributes as Priority A?  I've been trying, and the best I could come up with is a "man in the van" hacker/rigger.  I suppose a similarly built Astral Projection Conjurer could work, and a maybe a Str, Chr, Log 1 Gun Specialist, but that's a maybe.  I'm not looking for suggestions on how to improve the build, I'm just showing it to demonstrate how I was able to build a character that could be a functional member of a runner team, and what it took (5 Attributes at 1).  And yes, I know that making a character with a 7 Logic Incompetent at Biotech is a self-nerf, but I figured it added to his "there is no reason for me to ever get out of my van" schtick.

Metatype   c   Dwarf-9
Attributes   d   8
Magic/Res   e   Mundane
Skills           b      24
Resources   a   450K

BODY: 1 AGILITY: 1 REACTION: 1 STRENGTH: 1
WILLPOWER: 7 LOGIC: 5(7) INTUITION: 5 CHARISMA: 1
Edge: 4 Essence: 2 Initiative: 5+1d6 Matrix Initiative(base config): 12+4/5d6(cold/hot)

Skills: (all specializations and Inf/Con bought with Karma)
Electronics   5 Matrix +2
Engineering 5      
Cracking 6   Hacking +2
Pilot 5 Drones +2
Perception   3      
Influence 1 Matrix +2
Con 1 Matrix +2

Qualities
Positive: Analytical Mind 3, Hardening 10, Photographic Mem 12
Negative: Uncouth 6, Social Stress: IRL 8, Incompetent: Biotech 10

Gear:
Used Control Rig R1   15000   1.1
R4 CyberJack Attr:7/6 VRInit:+2d6   95000   2.3
R2 Cerebral Booster   63000   0.6
Alpha Damage Compensator R10   24000   0.8
      
Renraku Kitsune DR:4 Attr:7/6 Pro:8   107000   
8 normal programs, 9 hacking programs   2730   
Essy Motors DroneMaster DR:3 DP:4 FW:4   16000   
Autosoft: Targeting 4 Clearsight 2 Maneuver 2   4000   
      
Van w/ Rigger Control   36000   
      
4 Nissan Oni 3/4 10 8 30 9 10 3 2(4)   34800   
8 AK-97 5P SA/BF/FA 4/11/9/7/1   16800   
8 internal smartgun 4/TGV 4w/LLV   8000   
2000 rnds AR ammo   4000   
Cyberspace Designs Quadrotor 2 15 20 120 3 1 3 2   5000   
Trid Projector   200   
      
R4 Fake ID, 5 R4 Lic   14000   
Middle Lifestyle 3 months   15000   
DocWagon Basic 3 months   1500   
   3500   
      
3 area jammers R5   3000   
Bug Scanner, Tag Eraser, Data Tap   950   
2*Renraku Sensei 3 2/0 1   2000   
2*Satellite Link   1000   
Fiber-optic Cables   420   
Engineering & Electronics Kits   1000   
      
Medkit R2 2 supplies, Biomonitor   1800   
3 rank 4 stim-patches   300   




Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Xenon on <02-09-22/1707:40>
Has anyone made a character they think is decent in 6E which didn't have Attributes as Priority A?
Yes.

Between special attribute points and 50 customization karma you can can build characters in more than one way.
Attribute Priority A is probably still advisable/optimal, but not really mandatory.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Aria on <02-09-22/1734:29>
Particularly for mysads... they almost NEED magic A, the one archetype that really does.  Despite what they lack in starting power they've got massive growth potential in longer term games

Cyber heavy characters can work with Resources A because that is where they get their stats from.

There are others...
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <02-10-22/0138:19>
It probably depends on your tables definition of decent. The problem started in 4e.

1. Attributes became more important.
2. they added two stats.
3. they did not really adjust points to compensate for either.

But if you leave multiple 1s and use karma to bump them a bit and have augmentations, yeah i think you can make a decent character.  You'd make a better one with A in stats most likely. But like it would still hang in there and do decent on runs. At a table of optimizers though, I don't think it would work well outside some odd builds like the van hacker.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: mcv on <02-10-22/0545:44>
WILLPOWER: 7 LOGIC: 5(7) INTUITION: 5
Sounds like you want Attributes A without taking Attributes A.

It's true that high attributes matter a lot. Maybe too much. But it's not true you can't be viable without having two attributes at 7.

Although I do agree that the lower priority options for attributes could probably use a bit of a boost.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: MercilessMing on <02-10-22/0950:09>
Attributes matter a lot unless they're Strength  ;D

The reason the Attribute priority chart is so messed up is that it's mathematically perfect.  The designer was so consumed with making the numbers add up that they never challenged their base assumptions about the relative value of attributes and skills or how people assign attributes and skills in practice.

Here's how you can tell.  Attributes and skills take the same amount of karma to raise, right?  5x new value.  Well, the number of skill points at each priority level is always 8 more than the number of attribute points at each level.  You start with 1 in each of the 8 Attributes, therefore you always have the same number of attribute points as skill points at each level.  Perfectly balanced!

As anyone who's ever played this game knows, however, attributes are not worth the same as skills.  Attributes are worth more.  Charisma points are worth at least three times as much as a skill point to a Face - 1 skill point is a die in Con or Influence, but 1 Charisma point is a die in Con and Influence and Composure and 6 contact points and +1 to max connection/loyalty of those contacts.

And as anyone who's ever played this game knows, players don't spend attribute points like skill points.  Someone who takes E on skills doesn't divide 10 points between 8 skills.  They specialize and take 2 or 3 skills.  Yet that's what you have to do with attributes.  Your first 8 are spent for you.  And metatype points don't save the day.  They're primarily for Edge, Magic, and racial adjustments, not to wallpaper over the holes in the system.

Anyway, that's why the numbers are messed up and Attributes A is the "correct" choice 90% of the time.

 
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Hobbes on <02-10-22/1028:41>
Attributes A is the best choice for most characters, which does make the Priority table easier.  A in Attributes, E in either Resources or Magic (for most characters), fiddle with the B,C,D a bit.  Burn-outs and MySads are generally exceptions, but those builds are tricky anyway.

It reduces build variety, but not character variety.  The RPees are what matter, not the dice pools, so you may as well make the easy optimization choice. 

It does make giving newbies build advise easy, as they'll only wind up so far behind a totally optimized build.  It does create mechanical traps for new players that don't seek out advice, which is my main complaint.  YMMV. 

If you can learn to accept it and enjoy the advantages of a clear "best" choice during char-gen you'll be happier.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: tarbaand on <02-10-22/1103:02>
Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse.  I just got 6e, and the way I learn a system is by making characters, so I'd made about a half dozen and noticed that every single time, I ended up with A in Attributes.  Then I looked at the archetypes, and all of them seem to be built with Attributes A, and so I decided I'd figure out a character I thought could hold his own with characters built with Attributes A, and came up with van guy.

I'd argue that, in fact a MysAd would be better off in the long run with Magic C or D as well.  Put no points into Adept Powers, start with 2 or 4 spells, and then dump 30 karma into Powers (maybe get a few spells along the way).  After 3-4 months (missions time), you go from slightly subpar to amazeballs.  Wow, now I want to make a MsyAd.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I have no problem with there being a pretty much best choice for Pri A, I just wanted to see if I was missing something.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Xenon on <02-10-22/1205:53>
As a thought experiment (and because of a dare from someone at reddit) I made a Face / Gunslinger / Physical Infiltrator with Attribute priority D or E. Between adjustment points (that went into both Agility and Charisma) and customization karma and resources into augmentations the character ended up perfectly viable with really good primary and secondary dice pools. I was actually surprised how well she turned out. Not sure where I put it though.... :-/
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: tarbaand on <02-10-22/1332:13>
I guess if you skip edge, 17 points would be workable.  Maybe I should try again with that in mind
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Aria on <02-10-22/1559:52>
Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse.  I just got 6e, and the way I learn a system is by making characters, so I'd made about a half dozen and noticed that every single time, I ended up with A in Attributes.  Then I looked at the archetypes, and all of them seem to be built with Attributes A, and so I decided I'd figure out a character I thought could hold his own with characters built with Attributes A, and came up with van guy.

I'd argue that, in fact a MysAd would be better off in the long run with Magic C or D as well.  Put no points into Adept Powers, start with 2 or 4 spells, and then dump 30 karma into Powers (maybe get a few spells along the way).  After 3-4 months (missions time), you go from slightly subpar to amazeballs.  Wow, now I want to make a MsyAd.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I have no problem with there being a pretty much best choice for Pri A, I just wanted to see if I was missing something.
Might be worth checking whether you're using the latest printing of the core book... mysads are soft capped by their starting magic and can only gain adept powers post char gen through initiation and choosing 'power point' ... they don't get one when magic goes up either (unlike pure adepts).  Easier to take powers and buy spells later... of course it's a bit of a reach to say you are a mysad if you don't start with any spells (but have spent skill points on spellcasting) but some GMs would be ok with that...
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: tarbaand on <02-10-22/1715:24>
Oh, wow.  They removed the 5 karma to buy power points.  So if I started as a Magic 1 MysAd, and bought my 1 point of adept powers, even as I raised my magic, I could never get more adept powers except through initiation. Well I guess that helps balance them, but it's a big change.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Xenon on <02-11-22/0201:00>
low magic priority (and then raising magic for free power points) is a good fit for physical adepts.
high magic priority (to unlock the possibility to buy more power points) is a good fit for mystical adepts.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Hobbes on <02-11-22/1049:41>
As a thought experiment (and because of a dare from someone at reddit) I made a Face / Gunslinger / Physical Infiltrator with Attribute priority D or E. Between adjustment points (that went into both Agility and Charisma) and customization karma and resources into augmentations the character ended up perfectly viable with really good primary and secondary dice pools. I was actually surprised how well she turned out. Not sure where I put it though.... :-/

You and SSDR both did similar build challenges.  Yes, with a high degree of system mastery you can absolutely build a good character with a lower Attribute Priority.  Someone with a lesser degree of system mastery is probably not going to stumble into decent dice pools though.  And if you re-built the character with Attributes A, you'd probably have an arguably "better" character.

But yes, can absolutely be done.  I can also take my car to the store by pushing it, it's a lot easier to drive though.    : )   I do enjoy watching the thought exercises.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <02-12-22/1846:08>
Well metas can swing it as well. Troll A attributes B isn't much worse than the reverse. I've seen the ones with D/E attributes, I mean I guess they get by in their roles but I would not consider them viable at my table. Part of the swing of it is agility covers so damn much ground as long as you bump that and 2-3 other stats to decent degrees which is doable with E and a decent meta point and some cyber etc. But at my tables they all had too many weaknesses and would not hang with my tables level of optimization. That being said many of my characters don't as i am not as much of an optimizer as the rest of my table. but i usually run games.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: autXautY on <02-14-22/0819:20>
Well metas can swing it as well. Troll A attributes B isn't much worse than the reverse.

While Troll A attributes B isn't much worse than the reverse, it is worse than the reverse with no benefit - Troll B Attributes A would have 2 more points of Attributes with no drawback whatsoever (the special attribute points from Metatype can be spend on Edge and Magic, but both of those cap at 6, so you'll never spend more than 10 points, or 11 as a Human, and Metatype B gives 11)
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <02-14-22/1625:30>
Well metas can swing it as well. Troll A attributes B isn't much worse than the reverse.

While Troll A attributes B isn't much worse than the reverse, it is worse than the reverse with no benefit - Troll B Attributes A would have 2 more points of Attributes with no drawback whatsoever (the special attribute points from Metatype can be spend on Edge and Magic, but both of those cap at 6, so you'll never spend more than 10 points, or 11 as a Human, and Metatype B gives 11)

I don't disagree with that it almost always is sub optimal in both the short and long term to not take attributes A, and in that specific example it is pointless. The general point is metas though can fluff a lower attribute priority a bit. Elf C attributes D is really 17 points.(the reverse is 16) A in resources can swing a lot of cyber/bioware and karma can bump your dump 1s to 2s. So lets say bump agility to 6, reaction, intuition, charisma to 5 everything else at 1, bump willpower and body to 3 with karma, take some flaws bump the other 2 to 2. So if you were for some reason really focused on getting a lot of ware it can get by. And its not necessarily a bad idea as they priced cyber/bio ware out of the market for most people in many campaigns. What you start with is pretty much what you will end with. This isn't 1e-4e where people actually upgraded their ware in play. Skills are B so they can get good at shooting and talking with ware to back that up.

Would it stand up to my optimizers, probably not, would it fly in a missions campaign sure.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: KarmaInferno on <05-08-22/0732:40>
Honestly, it should not have been that gigantic 8 point jump between A and B. I would have bumped B up by two points or something.
Title: Re: 6E without Attributes as Priority A
Post by: Xenon on <05-13-22/1343:25>
Back in the days it used to be a huge gap between A and B. For all categories (A used to be required to be a full magician, metatype other than human, to get 1.000.000 nuyen etc).

In this edition the huge gap is no longer between A and B (for the most part).

For Magic it seem to be between D and E (D is enough full magician) and for metatype you can now be troll already at priority E (and the slightly bigger "jump" is at metatype C)



But then we come to attributes.

Attributes A used to mean 24 extra points (only 6 attributes so 30 total) while attribute B gave you 75% of that.
Now attributes A also give you 24 extra points but attribute B give you only 66% of that!
Which mean an even bigger gap between attribute A and B than what we used to have??
We were expecting a smaller gap here compared to before. Not a bigger....



To make the priority table more consistent and not change superiority of attribute A you could change attributes to something similar to this:
A 24
B 22
C 19
D 15
E 10

And Metatype to something like this:
A 15
B 13
C 10
D 6
E 1
(to promote mundane humans one of the options should probably yield exactly 6 extra points to line up with human's max edge of 7):


This would drastically reduce the power of attribute rating A and open up many other viable options. For example

Attributes A and metatype E = 25 points (sum of 6)
Attribute E and metatype A = 25 points (also sum of 6 and also 25 points but without attribute A)
Attribute D and metatype C = 25 points (same amount but with a sum of 5)
Attribute C and metatype D = 25 points (sum of 5)
Attribute B and metatype D = 28 points (still sum of 6 but with more points)
Attribute C and metatype B = 28 points (sum of 6)

Attribute A and metatype D = 30 points (sum of 7)
Attribute D and metatype A = 30 points (sum of 7 but without attribute A)
Attribute B and metatype C = 32 points (also sum of 7 but with higher points)
Attribute C and metatype B = 32 points (also sum of 7)