[Syzygy]

I've only recently begun to GM Shadowrun, currently attempting to get my players to migrate from Cyberpunk 2020 (THey said we could play fantasy themed D&D or gritty scifi speculative future adventures, I said "Why not have our cake and eat it too?")

I've gotta say, I don't really understand the rules for calculating damage as presented by the book. For example, the listed damage on an Uzi IV is 6P.

6P? I understand the P part is denoting that the damage is physical rather than stun, but what about the 6? 6d6? 6d10? I don't really understand what it wants us to roll for damage. Since none of my group can really agree, we just defaulted to the Cyberpunk rulls where you roll Xd10 per bullet and subtract armor value + body/constituition, but that turned out to be far too lethal for the meager health the players are given.

Anyone wanna clear this up Thanks!

[Xzylvador]

6P == 6 point of Physical Damage.

You don't roll 6 dice, it's just 6 damage.
If completely unresisted (by body, armor, etc.) it would mean that being shot by said weapon, you lose 6 boxes from your condition monitor boxes. Enough to give you a -2 to every action you take because of the wounds and if you lose a few more boxes, you'll probably be dead.

To be complete, ranged attacks are handled like this:
The attacker fires, rolling <skill> + <agility> dice.
The defender dodges with either <reaction> or <reaction> + <dodge>/<gymnastics> if going on Full Defense.
It the attacker scores more hits than the defender, the attack hits. Let's say the attacker scored 5 hits and the defender scored 2. This gives the attacker 3 net hits.
These net hits are added to the base damage of the weapon. Let's use the Ares Predator*, it does 5P damage normally. Adding 3 net hits, the incoming damage is 8P.
The defender (who's now been shot) has 3 Body and 6 Ballistic armor. The incoming 8 damage is enough to pierce through his 6 armor (even without applying the -1 Armor Piercing from the heavy pistol), so will continue doing Physical damage.
Roll for damage resistance: 3 Body + 6 Armor -1 AP = 8 dice. He scores 3 hits.
8P damage - 3 resisted = 5P damage.
He loses 5 boxes from the 10 boxes on his physical damage track. Another shot like that is likely to put his lights out.

[Xzylvador]

Addendum:

(* : I'm using the Ares Predator here, because your Uzi makes it slightly more complicated. Since the Uzi can only fire Bursts, not single shots, if an Uzi had been used for a Short Narrow Burst the damage would have been 2 higher. Had it been used for a Short Wide Burst, the defender would have rolled 2 dice less on his defense test. )

Also, forgot: Since the 5 damage is more than his 3 body, the defender is also knocked down, causing him to be prone.

Edit2: Also, made a mistake. Since the Ares Predator has -1AP, the defender would have used only 5 dice for armor, not the full 6 he's wearing. Editing first post.

[Syzygy]

6P == 6 point of Physical Damage.

You don't roll 6 dice, it's just 6 damage.
If completely unresisted (by body, armor, etc.) it would mean that being shot by said weapon, you lose 6 boxes from your condition monitor boxes. Enough to give you a -2 to every action you take because of the wounds and if you lose a few more boxes, you'll probably be dead.

To be complete, ranged attacks are handled like this:
The attacker fires, rolling <skill> + <agility> dice.
The defender dodges with either <reaction> or <reaction> + <dodge>/<gymnastics> if going on Full Defense.
It the attacker scores more hits than the defender, the attack hits. Let's say the attacker scored 5 hits and the defender scored 2. This gives the attacker 3 net hits.
These net hits are added to the base damage of the weapon. Let's use the Ares Predator*, it does 5P damage normally. Adding 3 net hits, the incoming damage is 8P.
The defender (who's now been shot) has 3 Body and 6 Ballistic armor. The incoming 8 damage is enough to pierce through his 6 armor (even without applying the -1 Armor Piercing from the heavy pistol), so will continue doing Physical damage.
Roll for damage resistance: 3 Body + 6 Armor -1 AP = 8 dice. He scores 3 hits.
8P damage - 3 resisted = 5P damage.
He loses 5 boxes from the 10 boxes on his physical damage track. Another shot like that is likely to put his lights out.

...What???

That seems WAY more complicated than what the book said. It was clear up until you mentioned the defender rolling a bunch of dice based on his body + armor value or something to resist a bunch of other dice somebody had to roll.

If we have to do this for every freakin' hit somebody takes... Yeah no.

I don't get it, who designed combat like this? That is just far too complex and takes too long. I think I'll just port the damage/health system from cyberpunk 2020 to shadowrun, it far more intuitive and easy to understand while taking up less time to resolve.

Thanks for helping clear that up though. Really though, who thought this system was a good idea...

[Xzylvador]

It was clear up until you mentioned the defender rolling a bunch of dice based on his body + armor value or something to resist a bunch of other dice somebody had to roll.

It's not "to resist a bunch of other dice somebody has to roll", it's to resist the number of damage that's incoming.
8 damage incoming (that's 8 damage, NOT 8 dice!), resist by rolling armor+body. Each hit scored on that armor+body test is 1 point of damage resisted.
It makes sense, and after doing it a couple of times this stuff will come easy.

Total rolls for a ranged attack: Two or three.
One roll to attack vs one roll to defend.
And if the attack succeeds, one roll to lower the damage. (This is called a Damage Resistance test, a character receives one almost every time they would take damage.)
It's a lot less complicated than it sounds/reads.

[Carmody]

...What???

That seems WAY more complicated than what the book said. It was clear up until you mentioned the defender rolling a bunch of dice based on his body + armor value or something to resist a bunch of other dice somebody had to roll.

I do not see were it is more complicated:
   - In CP2020 you roll for damage and you do not roll for soaking (reducing damage).
   - in SR4 you do not roll for damage and you roll for soaking.
It is different, but you will see that it has some advantages : the damages you are doing are not random, they are based on how well you succeed your shoot, which makes far more sense.

[FastJack]

1) Attacker Rolls to Hit
2) Defender Rolls to Avoid
3) Subtract Defender's Successes from Attacker's
   a) If the result is less than or equal to 0, Attacker doesn't hit. Otherwise note the result.
4) Add the Result to the Attacker's Damage Code (in this case 6P)
5) Defender Rolls Damage Resistance to Subtract from the Damage Dealt, the Rest is Applied.

[Syzygy]

1) Attacker Rolls to Hit
2) Defender Rolls to Avoid
3) Subtract Defender's Successes from Attacker's
   a) If the result is less than or equal to 0, Attacker doesn't hit. Otherwise note the result.
4) Add the Result to the Attacker's Damage Code (in this case 6P)
5) Defender Rolls Damage Resistance to Subtract from the Damage Dealt, the Rest is Applied.

Okay, it makes more sense now, but it still feels like it takes far more steps than CP2020.

The way we've been doing it in CP looks like this:

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll hit location(s)
3. Roll damage, subtract body + armor

I guess the biggest hurdle right now is simply remembering what the names of the skills and base stats are, I'm far too used to the Dark Heresy/Cyberpunk systems.

[JustADude]

1) Attacker Rolls to Hit
2) Defender Rolls to Avoid
3) Subtract Defender's Successes from Attacker's
   a) If the result is less than or equal to 0, Attacker doesn't hit. Otherwise note the result.
4) Add the Result to the Attacker's Damage Code (in this case 6P)
5) Defender Rolls Damage Resistance to Subtract from the Damage Dealt, the Rest is Applied.

Okay, it makes more sense now, but it still feels like it takes far more steps than CP2020.

The way we've been doing it in CP looks like this:

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll hit location(s)
3. Roll damage, subtract body + armor

I guess the biggest hurdle right now is simply remembering what the names of the skills and base stats are, I'm far too used to the Dark Heresy/Cyberpunk systems.

Buy a GM screen. Has all the stuff cheat-sheeted on the back. 

[Seraph]

My group started playing SR for 3 months ago I think, we thought the rules were just as messy as you do but, BUT, the rules are very balanced and works really fine. For your own sake I say: Don't try to mix in rules from other games because that will just become messy. Like FastJack said in 5 simple stages you have cleared out everything and the numbers of dice is quite many in the beginning(we came from Savage Worlds System) but it is balanced and works out fine. Give it a try and you will see.

Hope you like it better in a few months

/Out

[Carmody]

1) Attacker Rolls to Hit
2) Defender Rolls to Avoid
3) Subtract Defender's Successes from Attacker's
   a) If the result is less than or equal to 0, Attacker doesn't hit. Otherwise note the result.
4) Add the Result to the Attacker's Damage Code (in this case 6P)
5) Defender Rolls Damage Resistance to Subtract from the Damage Dealt, the Rest is Applied.

Okay, it makes more sense now, but it still feels like it takes far more steps than CP2020.

The way we've been doing it in CP looks like this:

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll hit location(s)
3. Roll damage, subtract body + armor

I guess the biggest hurdle right now is simply remembering what the names of the skills and base stats are, I'm far too used to the Dark Heresy/Cyberpunk systems.

3 rolls and a few additions/substractions in each case... do not quite see the difference.

[Xzylvador]

Plus, like Carmody said earlier, it makes a lot more sense that your base damage depends on the weapon and how well the shot was aimed. (And then, how effective it is depends on how tough the enemy and how thick his armor is.)

Rolling dice for damage never made much sense to me. A well aimed shot with the same weapon shouldn't do as much damage as a slap in the face one time and as much as being hit with a car the second time.

[tzizimine]

As much as I hate to point this out, the attack vs. dodge vs. damage vs. soak is a little more complicated than that because of the common scenario that people will be wearing armor and most weapons are designed to do Physical damage.


It would look a litter closer to this:


1) Attacker makes Attack Roll. Note hits
2) Defender makes Dodge Roll Note hits.
3) Subtract Defender's Hits from Attackers
   a) If the result is less than 0, the attack misses. Stop.
   b) If the result is exactly 0 and the GM is using it, the attack was a glancing hit, meaning no damage but contact was made. Check for poisons and similar effects.
   c) If the result is greater than 0, this is net hits. Continue to Step 4.
4) Add Base Damage of weapon, net hits and any DV modifier except multiple rounds fired. This is the Modified DV
5) If the defender is wearing armor, apply the Armor Penetration to the Armor Rating. This is the modified Armor Rating. If they are not wearing armor, the Modified Armor Rating remains at 0.
6) If the Modified Armor Rating is equal to or greater than the Modified DV...
   a) And the armor has the hardened quality, the damage is ignored (common for vehicle and spirits). Stop
   b) And the armor does not have the hardened quality, physical damage becomes stun.
7) Add the DV modifier for multiple rounds fired to the Modified DV. This is the Final DV.
Defender makes Soak Test (Body + Modified Armor). Each success subtracts one DV.
9) Apply the final DV to either the Stun or Physical Condition track as appropriate at one box per DV.


What I have found playing SR4 is that
1) New players should have a cheat sheet with these steps and the appropriate numbers filled in so this process can be as automated as possible
2) Well armored characters tend to take a lot of Stun damage, which will still eventually make them unconscious (not something you want in the middle of a fight), but someone preparing specifically to kill someone can still do it.
3) A really good AP (measured as a negative number) is a better indicator of how likely someone is trying to kill you than the base DV.
4) Every season I run gives me more and more reason to continue working on my android app to assist with Shadowrun Players / GMs.

[Walks Through Walls]

Also the runner's toolkit has the cheat sheets that are really good for this also

[Syzygy]

As much as I hate to point this out, the attack vs. dodge vs. damage vs. soak is a little more complicated than that because of the common scenario that people will be wearing armor and most weapons are designed to do Physical damage.


It would look a litter closer to this:


1) Attacker makes Attack Roll. Note hits
2) Defender makes Dodge Roll Note hits.
3) Subtract Defender's Hits from Attackers
   a) If the result is less than 0, the attack misses. Stop.
   b) If the result is exactly 0 and the GM is using it, the attack was a glancing hit, meaning no damage but contact was made. Check for poisons and similar effects.
   c) If the result is greater than 0, this is net hits. Continue to Step 4.
4) Add Base Damage of weapon, net hits and any DV modifier except multiple rounds fired. This is the Modified DV
5) If the defender is wearing armor, apply the Armor Penetration to the Armor Rating. This is the modified Armor Rating. If they are not wearing armor, the Modified Armor Rating remains at 0.
6) If the Modified Armor Rating is equal to or greater than the Modified DV...
   a) And the armor has the hardened quality, the damage is ignored (common for vehicle and spirits). Stop
   b) And the armor does not have the hardened quality, physical damage becomes stun.
7) Add the DV modifier for multiple rounds fired to the Modified DV. This is the Final DV.
Defender makes Soak Test (Body + Modified Armor). Each success subtracts one DV.
9) Apply the final DV to either the Stun or Physical Condition track as appropriate at one box per DV.


What I have found playing SR4 is that
1) New players should have a cheat sheet with these steps and the appropriate numbers filled in so this process can be as automated as possible
2) Well armored characters tend to take a lot of Stun damage, which will still eventually make them unconscious (not something you want in the middle of a fight), but someone preparing specifically to kill someone can still do it.
3) A really good AP (measured as a negative number) is a better indicator of how likely someone is trying to kill you than the base DV.
4) Every season I run gives me more and more reason to continue working on my android app to assist with Shadowrun Players / GMs.

Sounds like a good idea. Hmm, wonder why nobody has simply written a program to do all the rolls... I might look into that.

As far as the CP2020 and SR are concerned, CP's combat only requires Reflex + pistol/rifle skill, if you hit or exceed the threshold (based by distance) it coutns as a hit, no dodging rolls on the defenders part, and no rolling for damage reduction. It's simply BTM + Armor value to reduce damage.

Speaking of which, why do they allow the defender to roll on their dodge skill vs. bullets? A creature the size of a human, let alone orcs n' trolls, would never be able to move fast enough to avoid a bullet, let alone multiple bullets fired from the gun of a skilled marksman. Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of the chunky salsa rule? I thought Shadowrun invented that trope, yet CP seems to lend it's combat system to the CSR much more with it's "Any extremity that takes 8 or more damage is reduced to meaty pulp" rule.

I'll keep working with it, but in the end it all comes down to what my players want. I'd prefer we play shadowrun as shadowrun, I love the setting and style far more than CP (especially when it comes to the matrix. CP's version of that system is.... daunting, to say the least)