[CanRay]

I don't know, think of all those idiots out there with Full-Auto modded AR-15s and TEC-9s (Or whatever they're calling them today.).

[Crash_00]

I guess I view a lot of modern weapons as FA capable weapons that have had the Firing Mod applied to take away the BF/FA nature of the weapon. So really they're just removing a mod.  I know, not the best analogy, but modifying an AR-15 or Tec-9 (civilian versions of the M-16 and MP-9 I believe) is considerably easier and more realistic than modifying a Barret or Revolver (Well I guess there is the age old Auto-fanner). I think the Firing Mod should have some hefty penalties associated with it (starting with double recoil like heavy weapons) and that FA should require at least 2 slots if not 3 always.

[Mirikon]

Personally, I like WAR! As has been stated, most of the gear is HIDEOUSLY overpowered for a normal shadowrun game, but there's a reason why most of the stuff there has an availability of 30+. In other words, ask now, pay up front, and sometime in the next year or two, your fixer will have it for you.

The problem is, most of the gear even with those high availabilities is STILL pretty trivial to get if you have a decent face. And they're have it for you in a couple of weeks.

Though that may be more of an indictment of how it's way too easy to get masses of social dice in this game.



-k

Actually, For most of these things, it is a Negotiation+CHA test, assuming you know someone with access to the tech (arms dealers tend to be secretive types, to keep from getting raided). The threshold is the availability, and for pretty much all these things, you have an interval of a week. And if you get a glitch or critical glitch on ANY of those tests, you're in trouble. And that's just to get hold of the item. It is a simple point of fact that military grade weapons and armor WILL draw attention. Using a tank in Seattle WILL put you at the top of everyone's "To Do" list.

If, instead, you let your fixer or other contacts do the shopping for you, there's less risk.

[CanRay]

Until your Fixer disappears.

[Mirikon]

Exactly. You think just GETTING the ultimate gear is all you have to worry about? Clearly you've never had a properly sadistic GM.

[Crash_00]

Reminds me of one particularly hoarding group in Hell on Earth. They're fighting to defend a major oil town against air raiders and manage to attract the attention of an old bomber (by missing it repeatedly, but just barely with their Anit-Aircraft gun). It turns toward them and is flying straight at them starting a strafing run when they finally manage to tag it and bring it down. They dive out of the way as the plane comes crashing down onto the AAA turret and goes skidding into the nearby buildings. Only then did one think, "Oh shit, we parked the van in there." 

Breaking things is funish, but allowing the players to break their own things is priceless.

[CanRay]

I miss Deadlands:  Hell On Earth.

[KarmaInferno]

Personally, I like WAR! As has been stated, most of the gear is HIDEOUSLY overpowered for a normal shadowrun game, but there's a reason why most of the stuff there has an availability of 30+. In other words, ask now, pay up front, and sometime in the next year or two, your fixer will have it for you.

The problem is, most of the gear even with those high availabilities is STILL pretty trivial to get if you have a decent face. And they're have it for you in a couple of weeks.

Though that may be more of an indictment of how it's way too easy to get masses of social dice in this game.

Actually, For most of these things, it is a Negotiation+CHA test, assuming you know someone with access to the tech (arms dealers tend to be secretive types, to keep from getting raided). The threshold is the availability, and for pretty much all these things, you have an interval of a week. And if you get a glitch or critical glitch on ANY of those tests, you're in trouble. And that's just to get hold of the item. It is a simple point of fact that military grade weapons and armor WILL draw attention. Using a tank in Seattle WILL put you at the top of everyone's "To Do" list.

If, instead, you let your fixer or other contacts do the shopping for you, there's less risk.

There's less than two dozen items in WAR that are more than 10,000 nuyen. About half of which are those crazy nanite-built structures that you almost never will see in a Shadowrun game. Which means the rest of the dozens and dozens of items in WAR have an acquisition interval of... two days

You can make a straight-out-of-chargen Face with Negotiate dice pools in the 20-22 range without too much trouble. Probably 25-30+ dice once they get some street cred and upgrades going.

Even if we go with a conservative 18 dice pool, and a degrading extended test, the face can get anything under a 52 Availability. Anything 32 or less he can get in 7 intervals, which for most of the gear in WAR is... two weeks.

If the Face just buys hits, at one hit per four dice, it'll take a little longer but it's going to be a matter of an extra week or two for most gear, and 1 extra month or so for everything else. Worst possible case the gear arrives in 3-4 months. With no possibility of glitch.

The point about undue attention is well taken, but that's introducing yet ANOTHER mechanic to control gear distribution when we already have two separate systems in place, Cost and Availability.

Availability was supposed to be that control system, but it fails spectacularly mostly because they put so many ways into the game to boost that Negotiate roll.



-k

[Mirikon]

And why isn't 'undo attention' ALREADY a part of your games? Let's not even touch WAR!, but go with something straight out of the core book. Ingram White Knight. 12F Availability. You can have one at Chargen, without even shelling out for Restricted Gear. However, if you walk around carrying one, you WILL be stopped. Since it is Forbidden, there are no fake licenses to get. They catch you with one, you call your lawyer from the station. Period.

There's a reason why that R and F are next to certain items. R will draw attention, but if your papers are in order, and you aren't committing crimes with the weapon, you're good. F is illegal, and you can go to jail for just holding the thing. Do anything illegal while holding an R item, and they'll confiscate it, at the very least, unless you've got a good lawyer.

So yes, you should be going after people who have insanely powerful gear, no matter how persuasive their Face is.

[Xzylvador]

^ Lawyers might help explaining why you have a R item without a proper licence and getting you off with a warning and a slap on the wrist.
Explaining who you're carrying a F item? Your lawyer might be able to decrease jail time, get you on probation at best, and you'll still be flagged a SINner.
Not to mention the people the gear originally belonged to. Someone holding up the Stuffer Shack with Ares manufactured AK's and Predators, that's nothing new.
But a group attacking NeoNet, equipped with top-of-the-line impossible-to-get Saeder-Krupp equipment? SK might take offence; It's a lot harder to deny involvement in crimes committed with gear that's only dispatched to your own internal special operations team --and apparently one group of shadowrunners--. Even more-so if they really weren't involved and hadn't had the time to manipulate a whole set of deniability facts.

As for availability, there's few 'runners that want an off-the-shelf weapon. Finding the mods and getting them installed takes a lot of money and time again and even worse, means they'd have to pass through several other hands before you get your new toy, every time it's passed once again running the risk of being caught or stolen. (What person in the underworld wouldn't want to get their hands on that difficult-to-get uber-weapon, instantly and for free?)

And in all cases, the GM's the one that decides whether or not you can actually find the weapon. Screw dice & availability, MilSpecTech gear isn't just lying around. Your street-corner willyalookatwhatsinmycarstrunk weapons dealer has little chance of getting near that stuff and even less chance at getting it unnoticed. And when he DOES get the stuff, be very afraid. Chances are the only reason he managed to get that stuff is because he's being watched by the spec-ops who leaked it to the black markets and are really curious to find out who's been trying to get their hands on all that state-of-the-art military equipment.

I'd never go as far as banning the stuff (only thing that really deserves it is emotitoys and software), but like so many things, a GM should look at the bigger picture when his 'runners are doing/using things that really stand out.

[Thermo]

I would expect that someone who is walking into a negotiation with a hard-core spec op military weapons supplier should expect that they won't have all their 'toys' at their disposal for the meet. You think someone in that line of work is going to allow some slick elf to use glasses that analyzes their facial features? Please. You'd be lucky if they allow you to even see their face, no less record it and analyze it. And I'm sure that a shadow-warrior-turned-arms-dealer is going to tell you to put that goddamn emotitoy away. If he suspects you've got tailored pheromones he'll insist that the meet is done in a manner where it won't affect the negotiations.

Remember that all the toys and gimmicks might work great on a wage slave or an unsuspecting ganger. But against a real pro? If they think you're playing them for a sucker they'll show you how the real spy toys work.

[Mirikon]

^^ This. You can bitch and moan about power creep and all that, but when you look at it, there's always a counter, especially when the tricks you're using are fairly well known. There are plenty of ways to deal with tailored pheromones and empathy software. The simplest is by arranging virtual meets, or 'requesting' that they turn off all electronics and submit to a scanner and tag eraser before talking about business. Jammers, white noise generators, and spiders help as well.

And then there's always the very good chance that Aztech might not like the fact that you have one of their military grade combat drones for your team. ESPECIALLY if you use those toys against the Big A. And when the Big A is annoyed with you, they tend to make an example out of you.

[JustADude]

You all do realize that battler rifles are only Semi auto / burst fire capable without a large firing modification from Arsenal.

False:

If it has Burst Fire already, adding Full Auto is only a small mod.

[All4BigGuns]

And why isn't 'undo attention' ALREADY a part of your games? Let's not even touch WAR!, but go with something straight out of the core book. Ingram White Knight. 12F Availability. You can have one at Chargen, without even shelling out for Restricted Gear. However, if you walk around carrying one, you WILL be stopped. Since it is Forbidden, there are no fake licenses to get. They catch you with one, you call your lawyer from the station. Period.

There's a reason why that R and F are next to certain items. R will draw attention, but if your papers are in order, and you aren't committing crimes with the weapon, you're good. F is illegal, and you can go to jail for just holding the thing. Do anything illegal while holding an R item, and they'll confiscate it, at the very least, unless you've got a good lawyer.

So yes, you should be going after people who have insanely powerful gear, no matter how persuasive their Face is.

Used in moderation, this can be okay, but it is way too easy to take it too far. It's a game, not a reality simulator. Don't know about any of the rest of you, but I have more fun in a more cinematic game and find the 'gritty realism' games quite boring because there's not point in getting any of the really cool stuff in those.

I would expect that someone who is walking into a negotiation with a hard-core spec op military weapons supplier should expect that they won't have all their 'toys' at their disposal for the meet. You think someone in that line of work is going to allow some slick elf to use glasses that analyzes their facial features? Please. You'd be lucky if they allow you to even see their face, no less record it and analyze it. And I'm sure that a shadow-warrior-turned-arms-dealer is going to tell you to put that goddamn emotitoy away. If he suspects you've got tailored pheromones he'll insist that the meet is done in a manner where it won't affect the negotiations.

Remember that all the toys and gimmicks might work great on a wage slave or an unsuspecting ganger. But against a real pro? If they think you're playing them for a sucker they'll show you how the real spy toys work.

Be careful doing this, while it could 'make sense' you shouldn't just straight up make what the player has spent resources (be it points or money) on for their character become useless. It will lead to a dissatisfied player (possibly straight up pissed) and may lead to you losing a player.

[Xzylvador]

Dunno, I'd consider the Face's prime responsibilities to be getting keys, plans, schedules & passwords from gullible employees, distracting guards, infiltrate a building not by using stealth but by talking their way past security and possibly as defense against other con artists. Taking all his/her toys away while "on the job" would kind of suck.

Getting more cash from a Johnson & getting gear quicker and/or cheaper is a nice bonus when it works, but not their most important role by far.