[martinchaen]

Ah, I see what you're saying. wireless bonus, not DNI; I'm not sure that's entirely clear, though, given the text you quoted on page 424;

Wireless:The weapon displays an ARO that tells you ammo levels and ammo type loaded.  If you have a DNI, you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action. Second, changing fire modes (on models that have more than one) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action.

That seems pretty straight forward to me; the Wireless bonus to eject a clip and change fire mode is a wireless AND DNI feature.

[EDIT]
Hehe, now I finally really see what you're saying, Kincaid.

So let me try to summarize.

If a character has both a weapon with a Smartgun System and a Smartlink, and these are either directly connected with a wire OR wirelessly connected through DNI, then the Change Device Mode and Eject Clip actions are Free Actions.

Correct?

[Kincaid]

Ah, I see what you're saying. wireless bonus, not DNI; I'm not sure that's entirely clear, though, given the text you quoted on page 424;

Wireless:The weapon displays an ARO that tells you ammo levels and ammo type loaded.  If you have a DNI, you get two additional benefits. First, ejecting a clip (for weapons that have them) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action. Second, changing fire modes (on models that have more than one) is a Free Action rather than a Simple Action.

That seems pretty straight forward to me; the Wireless bonus to eject a clip and change fire mode is a wireless AND DNI feature.

As JackVII mentioned in the old thread, this is a problem that probably requires errata/clarification. 

If DNI is required for the last bit of the wireless bonus (ejecting a clip), why would it not be required for the +dice part?  Specific trumps general.  There are general rules for what DNI can do and then there are specific rules for what the wireless bonus on a smartgun system can do.  My reading is that an example of a "wireless DNI link" referenced on page 163--which is a terribly awkward phrasing--is the wireless bonus of a smartlink system.

[Xenon]

Are we talking intent, house rules or rules as they are written?

By RAW you need wireless firearm and DNI
(If you have DNI, you get two.... p. 424)
...and for smartgun you also need wireless and DNI
(wireless working in concert with DNI... p. 433).

[martinchaen]

Is that true, though, Xenon?

The full paragraph on p433 reads

The smartgun features are accessed either by universal access port cable to an imaging device (like glasses, goggles, or a datajack for someone with cybereyes) or by a wireless connection working in concert with direct neural interface.

Emphasis mine.

[jim1701]

Wireless and DNI are, as I understand it, two different things though you may need both depending on the situation.  DNI can be either wired or wireless.  Wireless (as in bonus) relies on the device's ability to access the matrix.  DNI is just the device's ability to access your brain.

[Xenon]

DNI IS required to get the dice bonus. By RAW there are only two ways to connect your smartgun system. With a wire or wireless working in concert with direct neural interface. You need wireless working in concert with DNI to get the dice bonus.





Besides,
You are still aiming your weapon with your hands...
how are you supposed to adjust your shots if not by instinct?
and how do you do that if not by sensory output to your DNI...

[Xenon]

Is that true, though, Xenon?

It is true that you need wireless to get wireless bonus (such as extra dice or free action). To get this you need wireless working in concert with DNI.

You still get +2 accuracy and shoot around corners if you use cable. This does not require DNI. Wired does not give you a wireless bonus...

[Kincaid]

Are we talking intent, house rules or rules as they are written?

By RAW you need wireless firearm and DNI
(If you have DNI, you get two.... p. 424)
...and for smartgun you also need wireless and DNI
(wireless working in concert with DNI... p. 433).

Although I'd love to be able to rely on RAW (I play a lot of Missions, I'd love to be totally clear on RAW), I think at this point we all understand that the way the editing of the books was handled makes it impossible to be able to point to RAW and achieve any degree of consistency.  RAW is great in theory, but I don't think is achievable 100% of the time.  Some of the other examples of Change Linked Device Mode are very ambiguous when it comes to the necessity of DNI.  Thermographic vision?  That seems like it would be a case of neural interface, not DNI.  You don't need trodes to turn your eyes on/off.  To get very specific, I think the implanted smartlink uses neural interface, not DNI, and the authors screwed up the difference when discussing DNI, but that's obviously speculation.

So with that said, absent official ruling, I'm shooting for, "plausible RAI," which is why I mentioned Sledge.

My guy has a datajack and an image link, so I have no real skin in this either way.  It would just be nice to know with certainty how the most iconic piece of cyberware in the game actually functions.

[Kincaid]

Is that true, though, Xenon?

It is true that you need wireless to get wireless bonus (such as extra dice or free action). To get this you need wireless working in concert with DNI.

You still get +2 accuracy and shoot around corners if you use cable. This does not require DNI. Wired does not give you a wireless bonus...

As a slight digression, would you require an Image Link to shoot around corners without DNI?  Like I mentioned before, I generally rule that a smartlink has a dedicated display system, but I'm on the fence as to whether or not this would include camera images.

[Xenon]

You might or might not be allowed to connect your smartgun to your smartlink augmentation with a wire to your datajack (which also provide DNI btw), but it does not matter since it is no longer wireless
- if it is no longer wireless then you will no longer get a wireless bonus.

[Xenon]

Is that true, though, Xenon?

It is true that you need wireless to get wireless bonus (such as extra dice or free action). To get this you need wireless working in concert with DNI.

You still get +2 accuracy and shoot around corners if you use cable. This does not require DNI. Wired does not give you a wireless bonus...

As a slight digression, would you require an Image Link to shoot around corners without DNI?  Like I mentioned before, I generally rule that a smartlink has a dedicated display system, but I'm on the fence as to whether or not this would include camera images.

Smartlink in goggles but no image link nor DNI (no AR)?
Rules does not go into that.…
You can probably look at the display of your commlink and aim with that.
Also possible that the smartlink will provide the camera feed as well (that smartlink act as imagelink+)

Personally I think they should scrap the whole smartlink device and just reqire wired to goggles or DNI for basic bonuses and wireless to DNI for wireless bonuses...

[Kincaid]

You might or might not be allowed to connect your smartgun to your smartlink augmentation with a wire to your datajack (which also provide DNI btw), but it does not matter since it is no longer wireless
- if it is no longer wireless then you will no longer get a wireless bonus.

That's true, if a little weird.

Under your reading, what would an example of "wireless DNI" be?  Slaved smartgun to commlink to datajack?

[Xenon]

Under your reading, what would an example of "wireless DNI" be? 

For change fire mode and eject clip as free action I would say:
Wireless ON Firearm or Smartgun and wireless ON Trodes or Internal Datajack / Commlink / Cyberdeck.
No need to slave anything (unless you want extra dice to defend against matrix attacks).


This is a breakdown on the various scenarios that the rules cover:

Wireless ON firearm. No trodes or internal datajack / cyberdeck / commlink (later refereed to as DNI), but have AR.
The weapon displays an ARO that tells you ammo levels and ammo type loaded
Change fire mode and eject clip as simple action without touching the gun.

Wireless ON firearm. Have DNI.
The weapon displays an ARO that tells you ammo levels and ammo type loaded
Change fire mode and eject clip as free action without touching the gun.

Wireless OFF smartgun. Wireless OFF imaging device with smartlink. Connected with wire.
Camera feed and range finder let you shoot around corners (-3 dice)
Keep track of of ammunition, heat buildup, and material stress (+2 Accuracy)
Change fire mode and eject clip as simple action without touching the gun.
Fire gun without physically touching the gun.

Wireless OFF smartgun. Smartlink as augmentation. Connected with wire.
Camera feed and range finder let you shoot around corners (-3 dice)
Keep track of of ammunition, heat buildup, and material stress (+2 Accuracy)
Change fire mode and eject clip as simple action without touching the gun.
Fire gun without physically touching the gun.

Wireless ON smartgun. Wireless ON imaging device with smartlink. DNI.
Camera feed and range finder let you shoot around corners (-3 dice)
Keep track of of ammunition, heat buildup, and material stress (+2 Accuracy)
Change fire mode and eject clip as free action without touching the gun.
Fire gun without physically touching the gun.
Shift environmental modifier for wind (1 level)
Both Accuracy and Dice bonus on Take Aim
Positive dice pool modifier (+1 dice)

Wireless ON smartgun. Smartlink as augmentation. DNI.
Camera feed and range finder let you shoot around corners (-3 dice)
Keep track of of ammunition, heat buildup, and material stress (+2 Accuracy)
Change fire mode and eject clip as free action without touching the gun.
Fire gun without physically touching the gun.
Shift environmental modifier for wind (1 level)
Both Accuracy and Dice bonus on Take Aim
Positive dice pool modifier (+2 dice)

[Kincaid]

Ahh, I was a little confused.  Your post re: using wires with the datajack made me think that you were saying you had to use a cable with a datajack.  I can get behind "Wireless ON Firearm or Smartgun and wireless ON Trodes or Internal Datajack / Commlink / Cyberdeck." 

You would, presumably, not require these things for people to use their thermographic vision, correct?

Also, (and clearly this isn't your fault), the fact that a wall of text detailing six different scenarios can be written up to describe how iconic gear is implemented should give proofreaders pause.

[Xenon]

Ahh

Yes, the "normal" case is that you have a wireless ON smartgun, wireless ON smartgoggles and wireless ON datajack
This give you all benefits.

If you don't want to be exposed to the matrix you can run a wire, but then you only get a handful of bonuses.




Thermographic vision does not have a wireless bonus.
There is never a reason to go wireless ON just because you have thermographic vision

...but it might be an idea to go wireless ON if you for example have an imaging scope with thermographic vision
- as a wireless bonus to the imaging scope is that the line of sight can be shared to teams heads-up displays AR
(and possible let a team member take a shot without blind fire on a target that you can see but is fully behind a barrier for your friend)