[ZeConster]

Let's look at the cost effectiveness of the SINNer quality, shall we (and yes, Firebug, players do have to pay the tax; call it the cost of staying off the grid or a good old fashioned sales tax or whatever, but it is stipulated in the NQ rules so it has to apply)

Just the fact that it was phrased as a "tax" is the part that I consider dumb and hard to wrap my head around. You're talking about tracking the taxable income of a person who has effectively fallen off the grid and whose work is all illegal. If he uses his old bank accounts for his running proceeds or asks Mr. Johnsons to provide him the equivalent of a Form 1099 so he can file his taxes, he's pretty much asking for worse!

Very few SINner are really off the grid, though. Criminal SINners will end up on a watchlist if they disappear (it's a felony, after all), and for Corporate Limited SINners and Corporate Born SINners "we still own you, no matter where you go" applies. National SINners are the most likely to be able to pull off a disappearance act.
In fact, that's the reason both my 4E SINner and 5E Missions SINner have a real private detective license: it makes for a decent cover for having unstable income.
Also, Bull made a few posts on the subject (after being told by people that yes, SINners pay taxes now), and basically, if you start arguing you shouldn't have to pay taxes, money rules start getting more and more detailed, which endangers the non-SINners too, since "your money is safe in your bank account if you have a Low+ Lifestyle, and you don't lose it even if any of your fake SINs get burned" is another abstraction. So whatever your "tax" rate is, part of it (between 0% and 100%) goes towards expenses for hiding income from the IRS, and part of it (between 100% and 0%) goes towards convincing the IRS you're not hiding income from them.

I feel like this was a bad implementation of the idea, it's confusing and nonsensical and there would be better ways to not make this NQ basically free karma.

Even for Missions?

[firebug]

Also, Bull made a few posts on the subject (after being told by people that yes, SINners pay taxes now), and basically, if you start arguing you shouldn't have to pay taxes, money rules start getting more and more detailed, which endangers the non-SINners too, since "your money is safe in your bank account if you have a Low+ Lifestyle, and you don't lose it even if any of your fake SINs get burned" is another abstraction. So whatever your "tax" rate is, part of it (between 0% and 100%) goes towards expenses for hiding income from the IRS, and part of it (between 100% and 0%) goes towards convincing the IRS you're not hiding income from them.

I can't say I agree that not having to pay a percentage of all of their money somehow makes money rules get more and more detailed.  It just seems terribly unreasonable when money is important to character progression.  That is, to have that on top of a NQ that is already going to be causing drawbacks.  Criminal SIN should be worth far, far more than 10 points if it actually costs you fifteen percent of all of the money you'll ever make for "reasons".  You have no reason to pay the upkeep, as if the PC "fails to update residential information or appears in any way to be trying to evade their oversight, he is subject to arrest."  You don't keep any of your money tied to your real SIN either, because then all of your transactions would be easily tracked.  So if you're already wanted and disconnecting yourself from your SIN, why would you be paying taxes?

The book says absolutely nothing about it being for any expenses to hide from the IRS or anything.  Those things would all be reasons made up by the GM as to how it makes sense when it otherwise doesn't.  It doesn't even really imply that runners have to worry about it.  This information that he must pay a percent of his "gross income" also comes right after the sentence I just quoted--  about updating your residential information.  The term also doesn't seem relevant to a runner.  For one, your SIN has no gross income attached because you're not putting any money in that SIN's bank account.

If your character is Joseph Baldwin, ends up with a Criminal SIN, then goes into the shadows and gets a fake National SIN (which, keep in mind, none of your fake SINs have to pay taxes) that says he is Jonathan Myers and uses that to handle his withdraws and deposits, has his apartment registered to it and uses it when buying food, it's not Jonathan that's getting taxed for 15% of his income because he's a criminal.  It's Joseph, who, according to his SIN, has not gained, deposited, withdrawn, or spent any money in several months.

The NQ already has drawbacks, ones that seem balanced to their penalties already.

[ZeConster]

If your character is Joseph Baldwin, ends up with a Criminal SIN, then goes into the shadows and gets a fake National SIN (which, keep in mind, none of your fake SINs have to pay taxes) that says he is Jonathan Myers and uses that to handle his withdraws and deposits, has his apartment registered to it and uses it when buying food, it's not Jonathan that's getting taxed for 15% of his income because he's a criminal.  It's Joseph, who, according to his SIN, has not gained, deposited, withdrawn, or spent any money in several months.

Then it's also Joseph who gets in trouble for violating his parole agreement by not having a fixed location he can be reached at at all times, if he claims to be living on the streets
or
It's Jonathan who gets investigated for apparently paying for the place Joseph, who has 0 income, stays at
or
It's Joseph who's now a wanted fugitive for disappearing when he has a Criminal SIN, bounty at all, which means he doesn't just have to worry about being linked to a crime, but about anyone recognizing him - and that includes nosy Mrs. Parker from apartment 5B, who regularly checks mugshot websites because she fears for her grandchildren.



Your complaints might be valid for any other type of SINner, but they are not valid for Criminal SINners. Does Criminal SINner seem to have too many disadvantages for the Karma cost? Absolutely? Can you circumvent them by abandoning your real identity? Nope.
Plus, of course, if all his assets are linked to Jonathan, it seems no more than logical that if that fake SIN is ever burnt, his bank accounts and apartment go poof too. That's what I mean with complicating things. If you want to go back to the way 4th edition handled things (which means no taxes needed), that's fine as long as it's not a Missions game - but if you're just going to go "I'll just refuse to pay my taxes", there are complications involved.

[firebug]

Then it's also Joseph who gets in trouble for violating his parole agreement by not having a fixed location he can be reached at at all times, if he claims to be living on the streets
or
It's Jonathan who gets investigated for apparently paying for the place Joseph, who has 0 income, stays at
or
It's Joseph who's now a wanted fugitive for disappearing when he has a Criminal SIN, bounty at all, which means he doesn't just have to worry about being linked to a crime, but about anyone recognizing him - and that includes nosy Mrs. Parker from apartment 5B, who regularly checks mugshot websites because she fears for her grandchildren.

Yes, Joseph would be violating his parole, just like every shadowrunner would be unless they let Lone Star watch them as they go commit crimes with their team.  So your first and third points would naturally happen to anyone who had Criminal SIN, because seriously, they would not be able to function as a runner if they told the authorities where they stayed at all times and allowed them to be monitored.  This will happen regardless of any taxes being paid.

"Jonathan" would be investigated eventually no matter what, regardless of paying taxes.  That's just the basic nature of having a Criminal SIN.  They find evidence at a crime scene that matches with Joseph's biometrics.  They begin looking for him (though only if he's worth the trouble).  If he's stupid enough to still be telling the authorities where he lives while still committing crimes, they'll find him and arrest him.  That will happen to a National SINner too, if they don't detach themselves from their previous SIN.

Your comment about them all going poof if they're attached to Jonathan is legitimate, in that it doesn't make sense for them to not all go poof when it's burned.  But that doesn't automatically mean that they must still be attached to his criminal SIN, because that doesn't make sense either.  I accept that as an abstraction.  In fact, the entire "Lifestyle" section is an abstraction.  Paying taxes or not paying taxes does not change anything, and as you pointed out, it worked fine in 4th edition.  I do not see any justification as to why it would apply to runners when every section it's included in has it among the same lines as examples of what normal, law-abiding citizens do, which runners are not and can't afford to be.  Your character does not tell law enforcement where they live and allow them to monitor their lives.  That would not work out well.

The National SIN quality would take 15% of your money for only 5 Karma as well, and I really have more faith in the designers than to assume they didn't think "losing a noticable portion of your cash forever and being more easily tracked for crimes" was worth less than "Your character pretends to be an elf but isn't really."  Elf Poser is 6 Karma.

"The main drawback to having a legal National SIN is the character is in the system." as it says.  Not hindering the advancement of three archetypes.

And again, if it does, why do runners not have to pay taxes for their fake SINs?  Surely that would cause all of the same problems it would cause for someone with the SINner quality.  My guess?  Because money is important for advancement and you don't need to complicate things by adding tax payments to the game.

Sorry, my tone is very edgy.  This for some reason really really annoys me, so I'm very motivated to defend my view of it.

[SlowDeck]

And again, if it does, why do runners not have to pay taxes for their fake SINs?  Surely that would cause all of the same problems it would cause for someone with the SINner quality.  My guess?  Because money is important for advancement and you don't need to complicate things by adding tax payments to the game.

Sorry, my tone is very edgy.  This for some reason really really annoys me, so I'm very motivated to defend my view of it.

It could also be that they're planting fake tax records. If anything, I'm willing to bet the tax agencies have poor security compared to GOD, the SIN system, the military, and national law enforcement.

[Dinendae]

And again, if it does, why do runners not have to pay taxes for their fake SINs?  Surely that would cause all of the same problems it would cause for someone with the SINner quality.  My guess?  Because money is important for advancement and you don't need to complicate things by adding tax payments to the game.

Sorry, my tone is very edgy.  This for some reason really really annoys me, so I'm very motivated to defend my view of it.

It could also be that they're planting fake tax records. If anything, I'm willing to bet the tax agencies have poor security compared to GOD, the SIN system, the military, and national law enforcement.

Actually, there was a bit of fluff I read somewhere where Jackpointers were talking about this very subject; they were saying that a lot of runners get caught by the IRS. Trying to pretend you're not the person they're (the tax collector) looking for will not work, as they are already contacting Knight Errant/Lone Star/Whomever, and doing an in-depth check of your SIN (fake or not). Claiming a corporate SIN is no protection either; they're already contacting that corporation's version of the IRS, and checking to see if your taxes are up to date, once again with law enforcement probably on the way.

Also remember that lacking any proof of income is not going to stop the IRS (or any other tax agency) from still assigning you penalties and back taxes; even today the IRS has no problem at all in estimating what you owe, always to your detriment. I imagine it would be worse in the Shadowrun universe. So yeah, you're a shadowrunner living off the grid, but it's still in your best interest to pay taxes; after all, that was the way the finally got Al Capone. This reminds me of a line from National Treasure: Book of Secrets: "Do you know what the taxes are on 5 million dollars? 6 million dollars."

[Whiskeyjack]

I feel like this was a bad implementation of the idea, it's confusing and nonsensical and there would be better ways to not make this NQ basically free karma.

Even for Missions?

I really don't see how it was necessary, but "big magical database used for tax collection AND NOTHING ELSE" strains credibility and is an air-breathing mermaid to boot. I don't particularly follow the details of missions, and am not sure if my group plays them straight (I'm not the GM, so enforcement of what is "missions legal" isn't in my wheelhouse) but if the authors wanted the tax man to be a big thing in a missions season, I'd expect they could come up with a mechanic about it that was less kludgy and, frankly, immersion-breaking in how it's described and implemented to people who don't have ongoing work histories or taxable deposits tied to their SINned identity.

From browsing this board as well as the greater internet about Shadowrun it seems to be a way to prevent a compromised fake SIN from eliminating all of a character's assets. I guess the writers assumed that characters would be opening bank accounts under their fake SIN. I guess my table never considered the greater implications of banking as we just run around with credsticks. Or at the very least, have never focused on bank accounts tied to our characters' false identities.

I just, ugh, what at all does this add to the game experience? And if it adds anything, could it do so in a way that actually makes sense?

[Dinendae]

I just, ugh, what at all does this add to the game experience? And if it adds anything, could it do so in a way that actually makes sense?

Just consider it the price you pay for getting that karma, and leave it at that. Don't try to push too much reality into a game that has cybertech, dragons, and magic. If you want X karma from the SINner negative quality, you pay for that with a portion of your money. If your character is going to be nuyen dependant for advancement, and you feel this negative quality will hurt too much, take something else.

[firebug]

I just, ugh, what at all does this add to the game experience? And if it adds anything, could it do so in a way that actually makes sense?

Just consider it the price you pay for getting that karma, and leave it at that. Don't try to push too much reality into a game that has cybertech, dragons, and magic. If you want X karma from the SINner negative quality, you pay for that with a portion of your money. If your character is going to be nuyen dependant for advancement, and you feel this negative quality will hurt too much, take something else.

That's actually the problem I have.  The qualities already have a price you pay for the karma, which very much seems to be what their bonus karma is based around.  One of the starting points for the reason I feel it's mistaken to make players lose money is because the negative qualities already have additional drawbacks that balance out the bonus karma they give.

Also, a minor gripe...  But bringing up the fantasy elements doesn't really negate asking for realism.  The realism in how people and societies act is what makes a setting believable and enjoyable even if it is full of things that cannot exist.\

Actually, there was a bit of fluff I read somewhere where Jackpointers were talking about this very subject; they were saying that a lot of runners get caught by the IRS. Trying to pretend you're not the person they're (the tax collector) looking for will not work, as they are already contacting Knight Errant/Lone Star/Whomever, and doing an in-depth check of your SIN (fake or not). Claiming a corporate SIN is no protection either; they're already contacting that corporation's version of the IRS, and checking to see if your taxes are up to date, once again with law enforcement probably on the way.

Also remember that lacking any proof of income is not going to stop the IRS (or any other tax agency) from still assigning you penalties and back taxes; even today the IRS has no problem at all in estimating what you owe, always to your detriment. I imagine it would be worse in the Shadowrun universe. So yeah, you're a shadowrunner living off the grid, but it's still in your best interest to pay taxes; after all, that was the way the finally got Al Capone. This reminds me of a line from National Treasure: Book of Secrets: "Do you know what the taxes are on 5 million dollars? 6 million dollars."

I don't really see those as reasons to pay taxes.  I mean, it's not like paying them is going to reverse everything and now KE has absolutely nothing on you.  Especially in the dystopian setting of Shadowrun, it's illustrated that KE and LS can just make up a reason to hold you more or less forever.  Having no SIN is illegal in some places, using a fake SIN is illegal everywhere.  You're going to jail now.  Those aren't even stretches of the imagination.  The whole "having no proof of income" thing is kinda irrelevant though, I mean, I'm not saying you're wrong.  Just, at that point trying to incorporate that would make it even more complex than 15% of all your money.  It does, however, make much more sense than them having a complete record of all the money you made through illicit operations, or that their arbitrary amount just happens to always be 15% of what your runs paid.  And for the people who keep all their money in credsticks?  There's no trails of them being paid beyond the Mr. Johnson or your Fixer withdrawing money from their account.  That's kind of why credsticks are still popular among runners.

[Whiskeyjack]

I mean thinking about it from the perspective of "I have to expend X percent of my normal income to keep up 'normal-seeming activities' on my real SIN, since lack of normal activities would be weird and suspicious." That actually makes sense. A guy with a Corp SIN who ever hopes to get back into the good graces of his corp is going to need to leave a data trail suggesting he never left its good graces. A guy with a national SIN needs to prove he's an upstanding citizen with an on-book job. A criminal is going to need to forge records showing they're in compliance with the terms of their conviction, and even if he's a decker it's not going to be free since someone's going to need to get bribed on the other end to not look super close when the changes to the records are noticed.

I guess my biggest issue is calling it a "tax" when "tax" is a very specific and IRL-evocative term that doesn't really make sense in the game context near as much as a "legitimate-seeming records fee" or whatever would.

That's actually the problem I have.  The qualities already have a price you pay for the karma, which very much seems to be what their bonus karma is based around.  One of the starting points for the reason I feel it's mistaken to make players lose money is because the negative qualities already have additional drawbacks that balance out the bonus karma they give.

Yeah, also this.

[firebug]

I mean thinking about it from the perspective of "I have to expend X percent of my normal income to keep up 'normal-seeming activities' on my real SIN, since lack of normal activities would be weird and suspicious." That actually makes sense. A guy with a Corp SIN who ever hopes to get back into the good graces of his corp is going to need to leave a data trail suggesting he never left its good graces. A guy with a national SIN needs to prove he's an upstanding citizen with an on-book job. A criminal is going to need to forge records showing they're in compliance with the terms of their conviction, and even if he's a decker it's not going to be free since someone's going to need to get bribed on the other end to not look super close when the changes to the records are noticed.

That would totally make sense as a reason for players to have to pay an amount of money, but that would make more sense as a static amount per month.

But the thing is, as much sense as that makes, it's not what the quality says they're doing.  It says "paying taxes".

[martinchaen]

Guys, you're gonna drive yourself nuts if you keep this up.

Consider that the writers have to reach their audience as best as they can; what's easier, calling it a tax or describing in detail what the fees are used for? I absolutely see where you're coming from, I do, but is it really that difficult to imagine the "tax" as being any number of other things?

And if you're not playing Missions, you can just house rule the tax away entirely. Done and done.

[SlowDeck]

And again, if it does, why do runners not have to pay taxes for their fake SINs?  Surely that would cause all of the same problems it would cause for someone with the SINner quality.  My guess?  Because money is important for advancement and you don't need to complicate things by adding tax payments to the game.

Sorry, my tone is very edgy.  This for some reason really really annoys me, so I'm very motivated to defend my view of it.

It could also be that they're planting fake tax records. If anything, I'm willing to bet the tax agencies have poor security compared to GOD, the SIN system, the military, and national law enforcement.

Actually, there was a bit of fluff I read somewhere where Jackpointers were talking about this very subject; they were saying that a lot of runners get caught by the IRS. Trying to pretend you're not the person they're (the tax collector) looking for will not work, as they are already contacting Knight Errant/Lone Star/Whomever, and doing an in-depth check of your SIN (fake or not). Claiming a corporate SIN is no protection either; they're already contacting that corporation's version of the IRS, and checking to see if your taxes are up to date, once again with law enforcement probably on the way.

Also remember that lacking any proof of income is not going to stop the IRS (or any other tax agency) from still assigning you penalties and back taxes; even today the IRS has no problem at all in estimating what you owe, always to your detriment. I imagine it would be worse in the Shadowrun universe. So yeah, you're a shadowrunner living off the grid, but it's still in your best interest to pay taxes; after all, that was the way the finally got Al Capone. This reminds me of a line from National Treasure: Book of Secrets: "Do you know what the taxes are on 5 million dollars? 6 million dollars."

Actually, if anything, it would be even harder to collect taxes in the Shadowrun world. The reason is extraterritoriality. Which is actually one of the major factors as to why such has not happened in real life yet.

In real life, the U.S. is actually a bit of a busy-body nation where it comes to its citizens; it tries to restrict activities and apply taxes to what citizens do while outside of the nation. This has a somewhat spotty record of actually working. Especially since authorities in other nations tend to bristle at the idea that U.S. laws apply on their soil, which means that your chances of actually being able to ignore U.S. law while abroad pretty much depends on the attitude of whatever law enforcement you run across where it comes to the American government dictating how they apply the law. And, yes, this does include tax-related items; that's why off-shore tax shelters are a popular dodge.

Given how a lot of corps appear to not even have extradition treaties with the UCAS, it's most likely ten times worse. Given the text about a corporate SIN and how it pretty much hints that corporations don't share much information, most likely they also don't share information on taxes they collected with governments in which their wageslaves live. All one needs to do is use the obfuscation of claiming they paid taxes to another authority, combined with relying on a lack of communication, to avoid paying taxes. Those records would be much, much easier to falsify and massively harder for the IRS to prove false; pretty much, they can't prove those records false without also proving your SIN false or at least getting you on felonies related to hacking, falsifying records, and (if they're feeling very vengeful) treason.

In any case, at that point the IRS will be the least of your worries.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if those runners were caught by being stupid about how they falsified the records. If you pay the exact same amount in taxes for several years in a row, it's going to raise red flags and draw attention.

Then again, if the UCAS is anything like the real-life American government, you can just have no legal income, claim you have no income at all but are an unclaimed dependent of another, and simply never file taxes at all. They probably won't even bother to investigate unless you end up coming under heavy suspicion, or get arrested, by other law enforcement.

[Michael Chandra]

And again, if it does, why do runners not have to pay taxes for their fake SINs?  Surely that would cause all of the same problems it would cause for someone with the SINner quality.  My guess?  Because money is important for advancement and you don't need to complicate things by adding tax payments to the game.

Sorry, my tone is very edgy.  This for some reason really really annoys me, so I'm very motivated to defend my view of it.

It could also be that they're planting fake tax records. If anything, I'm willing to bet the tax agencies have poor security compared to GOD, the SIN system, the military, and national law enforcement.

Actually, there was a bit of fluff I read somewhere where Jackpointers were talking about this very subject; they were saying that a lot of runners get caught by the IRS. Trying to pretend you're not the person they're (the tax collector) looking for will not work, as they are already contacting Knight Errant/Lone Star/Whomever, and doing an in-depth check of your SIN (fake or not). Claiming a corporate SIN is no protection either; they're already contacting that corporation's version of the IRS, and checking to see if your taxes are up to date, once again with law enforcement probably on the way.

Also remember that lacking any proof of income is not going to stop the IRS (or any other tax agency) from still assigning you penalties and back taxes; even today the IRS has no problem at all in estimating what you owe, always to your detriment. I imagine it would be worse in the Shadowrun universe. So yeah, you're a shadowrunner living off the grid, but it's still in your best interest to pay taxes; after all, that was the way the finally got Al Capone. This reminds me of a line from National Treasure: Book of Secrets: "Do you know what the taxes are on 5 million dollars? 6 million dollars."

I think that was a JackPoint post over at SRU. Lemme check... Found it!

http://www.shadowrun.com/2070/2013/05/25/the-taxman-cometh/

[ZeConster]

Then it's also Joseph who gets in trouble for violating his parole agreement by not having a fixed location he can be reached at at all times, if he claims to be living on the streets
or
It's Jonathan who gets investigated for apparently paying for the place Joseph, who has 0 income, stays at
or
It's Joseph who's now a wanted fugitive for disappearing when he has a Criminal SIN, bounty at all, which means he doesn't just have to worry about being linked to a crime, but about anyone recognizing him - and that includes nosy Mrs. Parker from apartment 5B, who regularly checks mugshot websites because she fears for her grandchildren.

Yes, Joseph would be violating his parole, just like every shadowrunner would be unless they let Lone Star watch them as they go commit crimes with their team.  So your first and third points would naturally happen to anyone who had Criminal SIN, because seriously, they would not be able to function as a runner if they told the authorities where they stayed at all times and allowed them to be monitored.  This will happen regardless of any taxes being paid.

There is a big difference between violating your parole (a logical assumption is you'll put a modicum of effort into faking an alibi whenever you go on runs) and showing obvious clues that you're breaking your parole, just like there's a big difference between violating your parole and going on the run completely (which, in 4th edition terms, would earn you the Wanted Negative Quality). Part of having a Criminal SIN is having to deal with the consequences.