Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stalker on <10-19-10/0945:55>
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Hi there!
I didn't know where to post this thread, but in the end decided to dump it in here. Feel free to move it if you find a better category.
I've got a plain and simple question: Could somebody help me understand that one darn phrase from the AR-box on the NEEC from Darkest Hour? I've read it for the umpteenth time now and just can't seem to get my mind around it. Either it's really obscure and weird, or I've got a bag of beans for a brain. I've taken the liberty to quote a larger section below and highlight the problematic bit. A paraphrase would be very helpful. Cheers!
A joint community of corporations and nation-
states, the NEEC filled the void left by the collapse of
the old European Union (EU) in 2028.
[...]
Due to Hamburg’s status as a free city and the
opposition of corporate influence in national matters,
the Senate of Hamburg has expressed its disap-
proval of the NEEC on occasions in the Federal Council
of the Allied German States.
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Due to Hamburg’s <snip> opposition of corporate influence in national matters,
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Hamburg is a free city, it opposes a unified Europe and corporate meddling in national matters, because the Senate feels it endangers their status.
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Excellent! Thanks, folks!
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Another case for the Sherlocks of Semantics!
TELL IT TO THEM STRAIGHT
Hamburg is a bustling city, though the energy level is very
different from Seattle. Moving through the narrow streets, your
mind is filled with noise as languages you don’t understand flood
the area, including the local lingo known as Habensprook (“Port
Speak”), an eclectic mixture of North German dialect, Dutch,
and Russian. Your linguasofts do their best to keep up but only
translate the closest feeds to you, resulting in an echoing wash of
chaotic sound.
What exactly is the part in bold print trying to tell me? Why should translating the most dominant feeds within earshot result in chaos?
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That is a good question, I can see it going two ways. First there's so many voices/ads that they all blur together and you have a hard time picking out separate voices. Second is you can understand the closest voices, but everything else is mashed together and kinda sounds like the ocean or the dull roar of a crowd. From the description number two sounds most likely.
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That "opposition of" probably should have been "opposition to".
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That "opposition of" probably should have been "opposition to".
Yup, that's probably what got me confused. Filed under "preposition botch-ups". :P
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-Problem solved-
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I'm back with more riddles! ;D Obscure parts are highlighted in bold print.
The first one's about a favour for a Holland-based connection. The runners are after an information he has, so they'll have to do a little job for him. What exactly? Here it is:
Suggestions include breaking into a local “coffeehouse” and changing ingredients to a more lethal mix, or in filtrating one of the corporate cliques to recover intel from an asset that fell in too deep.
What am I to make of that?
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The following snippet is about the security measures of a prison run by a larger corporation.
All contractors were in-house and materials were charged to the Global Security Infrastructure budget.
Okay, so they don't sub-contract to external service providers to do, say, the cleaning. But what about the "Global Security Infrastructure budget"? Is that corporate book-keeping speak?
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1) The asset sounds like an Undercover agent that got in way over their head and hasn't been able to communicate with home office without blowing their cover and getting killed.
2) Corp book-keeping speak.
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Jack's a quick one again today! Cheers, mate! :)
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Jack's a quick one again today! Cheers, mate! :)
hmmm . . . Fastjack be nimble, Fastjack be quick . . . could it be . . .
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Jack's a quick one again today! Cheers, mate! :)
hmmm . . . Fastjack be nimble, Fastjack be quick . . . could it be . . .
I've jumped over many a candlestick in my day... :)
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Jack's a quick one again today! Cheers, mate! :)
hmmm . . . Fastjack be nimble, Fastjack be quick . . . could it be . . .
I've jumped over many a candlestick in my day... :)
Or, to put it another way [Fast]JackBNimble . . . . ? ::)
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Jack's a quick one again today! Cheers, mate! :)
hmmm . . . Fastjack be nimble, Fastjack be quick . . . could it be . . .
I've jumped over many a candlestick in my day... :)
Or, to put it another way [Fast]JackBNimble . . . . ? ::)
Nah... that wasn't my/FJ's work. Most likely, it was Leonardo's work or the work of one of the original Echo Mirage team members.
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Jack's a quick one again today! Cheers, mate! :)
hmmm . . . Fastjack be nimble, Fastjack be quick . . . could it be . . .
I've jumped over many a candlestick in my day... :)
Or, to put it another way [Fast]JackBNimble . . . . ? ::)
Nah... that wasn't my/FJ's work. Most likely, it was Leonardo's work or the work of one of the original Echo Mirage team members.
I can believe it was Leonardo . . . typical bloody Immortal Elf . . .
Leonardo = Dr Antonio Vieri, for those who keep track. There was something recently about an escort job, taking him somewhere risky and back.
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Another case for the Sherlocks of Semantics!
TELL IT TO THEM STRAIGHT
Hamburg is a bustling city, though the energy level is very
different from Seattle. Moving through the narrow streets, your
mind is filled with noise as languages you don’t understand flood
the area, including the local lingo known as Habensprook (“Port
Speak”), an eclectic mixture of North German dialect, Dutch,
and Russian. Your linguasofts do their best to keep up but only
translate the closest feeds to you, resulting in an echoing wash of
chaotic sound.
What exactly is the part in bold print trying to tell me? Why should translating the most dominant feeds within earshot result in chaos?
As i read it, the Problem is the lingo "Habensprook" - as you most likely don´t have this as a linguasoft, the German, Dutch and Russian linguasofts you may have active take the phrases leaned from each language and try to make sense out of it. So you end up with these linguasofts each telling you some words without getting any meaningful sentences.
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I can believe it was Leonardo . . . typical bloody Immortal Elf . . .
Leonardo = Dr Antonio Vieri, for those who keep track. There was something recently about an escort job, taking him somewhere risky and back.
Where'd he want to go? Any clues to the reason?
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Who knows with the Immortal Elves? Maybe he's going to Antartica to look for alien life forms. Or arranging a trip to Mars to seek out more immortals? ;D
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I can believe it was Leonardo . . . typical bloody Immortal Elf . . .
Leonardo = Dr Antonio Vieri, for those who keep track. There was something recently about an escort job, taking him somewhere risky and back.
Where'd he want to go? Any clues to the reason?
page 160, Corporate Guide - the poster Stone said he & team got hired by Scale (!) to escort Vieri to a location in Iran and return to Europort. No actual date for the job is given, so it may not be that recent.
And reason? Yeah, right . . . Scale means it was a Lofwyr job. Draw your own conclusions.
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Well, Lofwyr did destroy his labs (and it's rumored he destroyed the Babel deck in the process). After becoming Loremaster, he might have "brought" Leonardo into the fold to channel his talents to the dragon's ... causes?
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Well, Lofwyr did destroy his labs (and it's rumored he destroyed the Babel deck in the process). After becoming Loremaster, he might have "brought" Leonardo into the fold to channel his talents to the dragon's ... causes?
Okay . . . but what is there in Iran that's important enough to Lofwyr to have Vieri/Leonardo escorted there and back? pity there weren't more details given about the job.
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Hmmm... I can try doing that the ED way AoL metaplot level. Greedy L wants something, that was there in the ED timeline, and Leonardo decides that it's worth the hussle of working with him. Remember, that he got Big D's memory crystal, where the late President could point to a few things that could save the world from The Enemy, and along with it, all of Greedy L's shiny S-K hoard (yep, i'm sure he thinks of the corp in that way :P).
It's a long shot, but it's possible.
Or Big D is just screwing with them from beyond the 'grave'.
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Ahh ok thanks Longshot I haven't gotten that far yet. I'm not sure where his lab was but iirc it was in the Middle East somewhere.
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@Angelone: who's [relevant] lab was in the Middle East?
S-K has a lab complex in among the Auvergne volcanos, but that's in France. Also a presence in the Eifel volcanos in Germany.
Nearest S-K labs to Iran that i know of are in Iraq or Turkestan.
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Leo's lab was in the Middle East iirc. It's been years since I read that book.
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Ahvaz, in Iran.
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Thanks Nath, I kept thinking Avast for some reason... guess I just have pirates on my mind.
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Yarr!
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More clues for the clueless! :D
There's been a murder, obviously a ritual sacrifice in combination with a massive spell. The murder is being investigated at the moment.
Astral forensics found a residual background count that faded with the signature.
What exactly have they found?
- The remains of what used to be a larger background count, but the astral signature had already faded?
- The remains of what used to be a larger background count, as well as remains of an astral signature (which can be used for the investigations)?
- Just a bit of background count (no further clues as to the power of the spell) and no astral signature?
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The second, the background count and the remains of a larger signature. Which can be analyzed.
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More clues for the clueless! :D
There's been a murder, obviously a ritual sacrifice in combination with a massive spell. The murder is being investigated at the moment.
Astral forensics found a residual background count that faded with the signature.
What exactly have they found?
- The remains of what used to be a larger background count, but the astral signature had already faded?
- The remains of what used to be a larger background count, as well as remains of an astral signature (which can be used for the investigations)?
- Just a bit of background count (no further clues as to the power of the spell) and no astral signature?
What's this from?
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What's this from?
As the thread title says. Darkest Hour. ;)
@ Angelone: Doesn't the fact that the signature has "faded" suggest that the signature is already gone - contrary to the "residue" of a background count, which is stil there?
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Not necessarily, faded could mean it's not as strong as it once was. If it was gone it wouldn't have been detected. Unless of course it was detected and then vanished afterwards.
The quote is basically stating that the background count is fading at the same rate as the signature and will disappear with it.
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If it [the signatue] was gone it wouldn't have been detected.
Not necessarily so. ;) Sometimes you can just physically tell that someone must have cast a spell at a site (e.g. because the stains and grime of a fireball are still visible). Since spells always leave a signature behind, you may conclude there must have been one, but it may have faded before you arrived (unlike the background count left behind by the terror the victim went through, which may last longer than the actual astral signature).
In the case given here, however, I think you're right. Thanks for pointing that out! :)
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What's this from?
As the thread title says. Darkest Hour. ;)
@ Angelone: Doesn't the fact that the signature has "faded" suggest that the signature is already gone - contrary to the "residue" of a background count, which is stil there?
Oh, okay - I haven't seen it as yet.
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There's a character called "Samriel" who keeps appearing throughout the series. Now, in Darkest Hour, there's an explanation for his name that reads like this:
Samriel translates from Sperethiel as “discomfort”, implying necessary discomfort as in medical treatment.
I don't really get it. Is there some sort of proverb or concept this explanation alludes to and of which I'm not aware? All I could think of was the old saying that "Medicine needs to be bitter in order to take effect." Is that it?
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No, it's like how surgery is actually a painful procedure (even with anaesthetic etc.) but is a good thing.
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A "necessary evil", so to speak? ;)
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The following snippet was actually taken from Corporate Enclaves, but was incorporated into the player handouts in Darkest Hour as well. It’s that bit about corporate cliques:
Cliques develop within different ranks of the corporate hierarchy, united by common interests
I’m not sure about the highlighted bit. Who is part of a particular corporate clique? Just wage slaves from the same level in the corporate hierarchy (peers and co-workers, that is), or people from different echelons within the corporate hierarchy (i.e. you’d have a secretary and some guy from corporate management in the same clique)?
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It could be anything, but most likely it's by department.
For instance, it most corporations today, you have the IT clique, the Marketing clique, the Customer Service clique, etc., etc.
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It could be anything, but most likely it's by department.
For instance, it most corporations today, you have the IT clique, the Marketing clique, the Customer Service clique, etc., etc.
Or even smaller groupings within those divisions, depending on the actual people. A clique could form around people involved in a particular, time-limited, project; or an multiplayer computer gaming group; or a sport team.
I was going to quote a section on cliques from Teen Champions, but it's too much about teenagers.
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There's a character called "Samriel" who keeps appearing throughout the series. Now, in Darkest Hour, there's an explanation for his name that reads like this:
Samriel translates from Sperethiel as “discomfort”, implying necessary discomfort as in medical treatment.
I don't really get it. Is there some sort of proverb or concept this explanation alludes to and of which I'm not aware? All I could think of was the old saying that "Medicine needs to be bitter in order to take effect." Is that it?
Speaking of Samriel, any other GMs besides me dislike how he was used in "Midnight" and "Darkest Hour?" He was fine in "Dusk" but then he turned into yet another Deux Ex Machina waiting in the wings to save the PC's collective bacon. Better, IMO, to tweak the power level of your antagonists to fit your team rather than keep bringing in Samriel and his elven special forces.
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Speaking more specifically to the topic title, "Darkest Hour: What am I to make of...", I could go on for a while if I had the book right in front of me. I found many inconsistencies and some flat-out contradictions of continuity in "Darkest Hour." Here are a couple off the top of my head:
In a sidebar, Jane is depicted as wearing an amulet surrounding her with a high-rating mana void. I was not able to find any explanation as to why she was doing this. I can think of a few, but it's a weird thing to leave totally unexplained.
When the team is meeting their contact in Hamburg at a anti-NEEC rally the name given for the location of the rally is very obviously a different place than the description and map given for the location. Thirty seconds with Google Earth showed me that, so what excuse does the author have? I guess you could argue that this is a minor thing but these days all of my players are sitting at the table with laptops and if I mention a real-world location someone in my group has it up on Google Maps/Earth immediately, which means errors like this don't slide like they used to.
In the section entitled "Grabbing the Disc" it specifically says in the Behind the Scenes section that the Aztechnology agents assisting the police with the investigation of Hermann Meyer's murder are positive that no one from Aztechnology was involved in the murder. The text goes on to say that the murder was perpetrated by a shadowrunner from Bogota who was instructed to make it look like an Aztechnology blood mage did it, but the text fails to identify who the Johnson was. Then in the final section called "Finding Lost Treasure" I'm reading the description of Captain Herrera, the Aztechnology commander at the Bosnian pyramid site, and it specifically says that it was she who came up with the "idea to get the disc from Meyer." So, what, is Cpt. Herrera independently contracting shadowrunners and going behind the backs of her Aztechnology superiors? I think not, especially given the other line from her description which says she is "...loyal to Aztechnology." In fact, there is no other evidence that I can find that would indicate that anyone from Aztechnology even knows the disc exists; the reason given for there being an Aztechnology expedition at the Bosnian pyramids is that the pyramids are so much like Meso-American pyramids. So what are we supposed to make of this contradiction?
Frankly, the overall impression given by "Darkest Hour" is one of organizational chaos. My understanding of the staff turnover at CGL leads me to believe that the transition from the original DotA author, who no longer works for CGL, and the new author is mostly to blame for the problems. A new author brought in to finish someone else's work is inevitably going to miss details and lead to continuity errors. The real shame is that none of these things got caught in the playtesting, proofreading and editing process. You'd think that someone along that chain would have picked up on these mistakes.
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(...) the reason given for there being an Aztechnology expedition at the Bosnian pyramids is that the pyramids are so much like Meso-American pyramids.
Well, Fourth World pre-Scourge pyramids in Barsaive looked just like that. Chceck out the cover of the Parlainth book.
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When the team is meeting their contact in Hamburg at a anti-NEEC rally the name given for the location of the rally is very obviously a different place than the description and map given for the location. Thirty seconds with Google Earth showed me that, so what excuse does the author have? I guess you could argue that this is a minor thing but these days all of my players are sitting at the table with laptops and if I mention a real-world location someone in my group has it up on Google Maps/Earth immediately, which means errors like this don't slide like they used to.
Dammit... Now you got me thinking of ANOTHER project to put on my list...
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In a sidebar, Jane is depicted as wearing an amulet surrounding her with a high-rating mana void. I was not able to find any explanation as to why she was doing this. I can think of a few, but it's a weird thing to leave totally unexplained.
You mean, explanations other than "The amulet's there to keep uber-wizard Jane 'Frosty' Foster from doing the run on her own and tearing apart anyone or anything that stands in her way?"
In fact, there is an explanation. (It's implicit, though.) Ehran knows that Samriel has found a way to follow Jane around. The amulet's probably there to hide her magically (as well as any magical goodies she's carrying around with her - the disk, for instance. They're cloaked by the masking capabilities of the amulet.)
When the team is meeting their contact in Hamburg at a anti-NEEC rally the name given for the location of the rally is very obviously a different place than the description and map given for the location. Thirty seconds with Google Earth showed me that, so what excuse does the author have? I guess you could argue that this is a minor thing but these days all of my players are sitting at the table with laptops and if I mention a real-world location someone in my group has it up on Google Maps/Earth immediately, which means errors like this don't slide like they used to.
I just checked and I cannot see the problem. The location given in the text is the square in front of the Rathaus (townhall), near the Congress Center, near Dag-Hammarskjöld-Platz. And the map just says "The Rally". What's the big deal? ;)
In the section entitled "Grabbing the Disc" it specifically says in the Behind the Scenes section that the Aztechnology agents assisting the police with the investigation of Hermann Meyer's murder are positive that no one from Aztechnology was involved in the murder. The text goes on to say that the murder was perpetrated by a shadowrunner from Bogota who was instructed to make it look like an Aztechnology blood mage did it, but the text fails to identify who the Johnson was. Then in the final section called "Finding Lost Treasure" I'm reading the description of Captain Herrera, the Aztechnology commander at the Bosnian pyramid site, and it specifically says that it was she who came up with the "idea to get the disc from Meyer." So, what, is Cpt. Herrera independently contracting shadowrunners and going behind the backs of her Aztechnology superiors? I think not, especially given the other line from her description which says she is "...loyal to Aztechnology." In fact, there is no other evidence that I can find that would indicate that anyone from Aztechnology even knows the disc exists; the reason given for there being an Aztechnology expedition at the Bosnian pyramids is that the pyramids are so much like Meso-American pyramids. So what are we supposed to make of this contradiction?
Bingo, plain and utter bollocks. I've already noted it down into the errata list I'm compiling atm.
Frankly, the overall impression given by "Darkest Hour" is one of organizational chaos. My understanding of the staff turnover at CGL leads me to believe that the transition from the original DotA author, who no longer works for CGL, and the new author is mostly to blame for the problems. A new author brought in to finish someone else's work is inevitably going to miss details and lead to continuity errors. The real shame is that none of these things got caught in the playtesting, proofreading and editing process. You'd think that someone along that chain would have picked up on these mistakes.
Another point for you. Three things I noticed while reading DotA 3:
- Loads of contradictions and major errors.
- The book is extremely blunt and outspoken when it comes to the Immortals. It lacks the more vague and mysterious tone of previous releases and hits you right in the face with the facts.
- Some of the authors (probably rightly) felt that they lacked sufficient knowledge of the crossover characters, maybe even the background at large. But they didn't leave it at just doing some research. In fact, they copied large sections of the Ancient Files and didn't even bother to cover their tracks. If you're in the mood for it, just cross-read the AR-box on Ehran in DotA 3 and Bobbie Derie's file on Ehran (http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Immortals.htm#40). The wording is almost exactly the same. Welcome to the Golden Age of Copy + Paste!
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My group estimated that Frosty's Magic rating is probably a little higher than the void, but just barely. We figure that she's using it to help hide herself and the artifacts from prying eyes. Ghostwalker picked up on her presence in Denver, and she desperately wants to avoid Lofwyr doing the same.
I have mostly avoided Frosty & Samriel's deus ex machina problems by letting the players run them as temporary PCs. When a regular PC is stuck away from the action, or just not very well suited to the current mission, I let the player run Jane instead. We did the same when Samriel offered help in Midnight, since the Face PC wasn't appropriate for the job.
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My group estimated that Frosty's Magic rating is probably a little higher than the void, but just barely. We figure that she's using it to help hide herself and the artifacts from prying eyes. Ghostwalker picked up on her presence in Denver, and she desperately wants to avoid Lofwyr doing the same.
I have mostly avoided Frosty & Samriel's deus ex machina problems by letting the players run them as temporary PCs. When a regular PC is stuck away from the action, or just not very well suited to the current mission, I let the player run Jane instead. We did the same when Samriel offered help in Midnight, since the Face PC wasn't appropriate for the job.
That sounds like a good way to handle things. In between Dawn and Midnight the physad in my group challenged Samriel for his Initiation Ordeal. He made a good showing but lost to Samriel. It was then that he decided to go Samriel's route and sacrifice a point of magic for an Essence point worth of bioware. However, they just haven't seen Samriel in a while since I did not use him at all in Midnight or Darkest Hour.
I can buy your explanation about Jane's use of the void amulet. In fact, it was one of the explanations I had come up with but didn't mention in my first post on the subject. I guess my complaint wasn't that the amulet was implausible but that it was weird that they didn't bother to put in one or two sentences of explanation for the GM's benefit.
As for Ghostwalker and Denver, I handled that....differently. As the team made their way through Denver I had Ghostwalker taken out by an orbital Thor strike and joint military action by the treaty nations. Spiced things up as they frantically drove through downtown with a Physical Barrier protecting them from Thor impacts 500 meters away and then running through the military cordon.
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I just checked and I cannot see the problem. The location given in the text is the square in front of the Rathaus (townhall), near the Congress Center, near Dag-Hammarskjöld-Platz. And the map just says "The Rally". What's the big deal? ;)
That's just it. Dag-Hammarskjöld-Platz is not in front of the Rathaus. The map provided clearly *does* match the platz in front of the Rathaus, called the Rathausmarkt, but the place they describe as hosting the NEEC summit meeting is pretty obviously meant to be the "Congress Center Hamburg" which is on the north edge of the actual Dag-Hammarskjöld-Platz, which is a kilometer or so to the north of the Rathaus. Maybe Ms. Harding was considering both Plätze and hadn't decided which one to use when she handed it off to the new author, who obviously never caught on to references to two different places in Hamburg.
Like I said, this isn't a huge deal but it did stop my game for a few minutes as my players quickly noticed that the map did not match the place-name given and we felt compelled to figure out what was going on.
Bingo, plain and utter bollocks. I've already noted it down into the errata list I'm compiling atm.
I'd love to see your list of errata. Are you willing to share?
- Loads of contradictions and major errors.
- The book is extremely blunt and outspoken when it comes to the Immortals. It lacks the more vague and mysterious tone of previous releases and hits you right in the face with the facts.
- Some of the authors (probably rightly) felt that they lacked sufficient knowledge of the crossover characters, maybe even the background at large. But they didn't leave it at just doing some research. In fact, they copied large sections of the Ancient Files and didn't even bother to cover their tracks. If you're in the mood for it, just cross-read the AR-box on Ehran in DotA 3 and Bobbie Derie's file on Ehran (http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Immortals.htm#40). The wording is almost exactly the same. Welcome to the Golden Age of Copy + Paste!
I have mixed feelings about "vague and mysterious" tone. One of my complaints about the series, especially the first two installments, is that the GM is never given the slightest indication of what the big picture arc is supposed to be. This lack of a big picture structure hurts my GM style. Having the Big Picture(TM) in mind as I run a session guides my improvisational changes and helps me avoid painting myself into a corner later on. I've already had decisions I made during Dawn flat out contradict things written in Midnight or Darkest Hour. Nothing I can't deal with, but it's work I wouldn't have to do if I'd known.
Oddly (or perhaps not) it keeps coming back to Bobbie Derie. I still wouldn't have the big picture if I hadn't read the unpublished material he put out a while back concerning the backstory to DotA and the follow-on adventures he'd written a draft for.
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Yup, I can see the problem with the map now. Good point! Cheers for mentioning it!
I'd love to see your list of errata. Are you willing to share?
Sorry, not yet. It's still pretty raw. ;) I've got a nice one for you, though. This extract was taken from the Frankfurt section of DotA 3:
Only Hans Winokur knows that the Phaistos Disc was
in Meyer’s collection. It was brought to Hamburg to be stored
in the Society’s sanctum until a decision could be made about
what to do with his belongings.
When I read that, I was like: "You're freaking kidding me, right? You sent the runners to Frankfurt, they're eager to finally grab the disk, and now you tell them to go all the way back to Hamburg?" Luckily, it was just carelessness that went unnoticed by the proofreaders. It should've been 'Frankfurt', of course, not Hamburg. But I think it is very telling of the way this book was cobbled together. "Hamburg, Frankfurt, ... those damn German city names all sound the same! Just use any of them!"
I have mixed feelings about "vague and mysterious" tone. One of my complaints about the series, especially the first two installments, is that the GM is never given the slightest indication of what the big picture arc is supposed to be. This lack of a big picture structure hurts my GM style. Having the Big Picture(TM) in mind as I run a session guides my improvisational changes and helps me avoid painting myself into a corner later on. I've already had decisions I made during Dawn flat out contradict things written in Midnight or Darkest Hour. Nothing I can't deal with, but it's work I wouldn't have to do if I'd known.
Sounds familiar to me. I could've KILLED the authors of Harlquin 1 when they wrote in the back of the book: "All of this may seem very mysterious to you. It damn well is, but we're not going to tell you what it's all about. Just play it and be glad we gave it to you in the first place." And you're just sitting there, shaking your head, thinking: "I'm the GM dammit, I need to know!"
Well, you're right. When it comes to the plot, there's no room for vagueness, I agree. But I must admit that I do like it when parts of a character remain a mystery to me, especially when it comes to the Old Ones. Not knowing every detail of an NPC's background or motivations, having to cross-reference, puzzle, guess - that's the stuff the Ancient Files are made from, and it's part of the fun.
Oddly (or perhaps not) it keeps coming back to Bobbie Derie. I still wouldn't have the big picture if I hadn't read the unpublished material he put out a while back concerning the backstory to DotA and the follow-on adventures he'd written a draft for.
Whew! I must have missed that one. Mind posting the link... pleeeze? ;)
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When I read that, I was like: "You're freaking kidding me, right? You sent the runners to Frankfurt, they're eager to finally grab the disk, and now you tell them to go all the way back to Hamburg?" Luckily, it was just carelessness that went unnoticed by the proofreaders. It should've been 'Frankfurt', of course, not Hamburg. But I think it is very telling of the way this book was cobbled together. "Hamburg, Frankfurt, ... those damn German city names all sound the same! Just use any of them!"
It was lunchtime and half the office wanted hamburgers and the other wanted hot dogs. :P
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Oddly (or perhaps not) it keeps coming back to Bobbie Derie. I still wouldn't have the big picture if I hadn't read the unpublished material he put out a while back concerning the backstory to DotA and the follow-on adventures he'd written a draft for.
One thing to keep in mind with the unpublished material he puts out? To some of us who are then trying to take over on projects he was working on, it becomes unpublishable material.
I had nothing to do with DotA, but there were a few other projects that I took over after he stopped working. As an academic and a writer, I, personally, take plagiarism very, very, seriously -- so to me, suddenly the unpublished material AH is spreading around the web became something like a minefield I had to navigate. Every good idea he had became, to me, something I was no longer allowed to work with, because I didn't want to parrot someone else's work and present it as my own. It turned into a tightrope I had to walk, trying to still present something awesome that makes sense in the backstory of the SR universe I love so much...but without making sense the way he'd presented it, as I tried to tip-toe and not repeat anything he'd written.
I can't say for sure that's what's happened to any given extent with DotA (so I'm not making excuses for them, in particular, or anything like that), because I didn't work on it and wasn't in on any of those conversations or anything...but it's how I felt, when I got handed a few projects that had seen big chunks of them posted on the 'net before I even got started writing on them. It may or may not have been just as jarring and delicate an issue for other writers that had to pick up projects like that, and it may or may not explain some of the organizational issues.
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One thing to keep in mind with the unpublished material he puts out? To some of us who are then trying to take over on projects he was working on, it becomes unpublishable material.
Maybe that was the very thought behind doing it? Maybe he wanted to save his stuff from being being re-written and recycled? It has all happened before, you know...
I appreciate your attitude towards plagiarism and originality. Maybe you can teach it to whoever wrote the section on Ehran in DotA? ;)
Here's the DotA text...
"EHRAN THE SCRIBE. An Immortal Elf who first appeared in 2030 as a close advisor to Lugh Surehand, Ehran was a member of Tir Tairngire’s Council of Princes until he stepped down in 2062. Ehran has kept careful watch on those of his descendants that might be an immortal as he is; he discovered that his daughter Jane “Frosty” Foster was one when she
was a little girl. However, he has hidden his relationship to Jane—especially from Jane herself—for his own reasons. [...] ."
...and here's the original (http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Immortals.htm#40)...
" [...] Ehran the Scribe appeared as a close advisor to Lugh Surehand. He was a secret member of the Council of Princes until he stepped down in 2062. Ehran has kept careful watch on those of his descendants that might be immortal as he is; and he finally discovered his daughter Jane "Frosty" Foster was one such when she was a little girl."
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Oddly (or perhaps not) it keeps coming back to Bobbie Derie. I still wouldn't have the big picture if I hadn't read the unpublished material he put out a while back concerning the backstory to DotA and the follow-on adventures he'd written a draft for.
One thing to keep in mind with the unpublished material he puts out? To some of us who are then trying to take over on projects he was working on, it becomes unpublishable material.
I had nothing to do with DotA, but there were a few other projects that I took over after he stopped working. As an academic and a writer, I, personally, take plagiarism very, very, seriously -- so to me, suddenly the unpublished material AH is spreading around the web became something like a minefield I had to navigate. Every good idea he had became, to me, something I was no longer allowed to work with, because I didn't want to parrot someone else's work and present it as my own. It turned into a tightrope I had to walk, trying to still present something awesome that makes sense in the backstory of the SR universe I love so much...but without making sense the way he'd presented it, as I tried to tip-toe and not repeat anything he'd written.
I can't say for sure that's what's happened to any given extent with DotA (so I'm not making excuses for them, in particular, or anything like that), because I didn't work on it and wasn't in on any of those conversations or anything...but it's how I felt, when I got handed a few projects that had seen big chunks of them posted on the 'net before I even got started writing on them. It may or may not have been just as jarring and delicate an issue for other writers that had to pick up projects like that, and it may or may not explain some of the organizational issues.
I definitely sympathize with you on this issue. I think it's a testament to Mr. Derie's vision of the SR universe that you say that you have had difficulty presenting something "awesome that makes sense in the backstory of the SR universe" without repeating something he had previously written.
I'm curious, though, whether you could have used any ideas from his written material, even if he hadn't made it public. I don't know the legal particulars but doesn't Mr. Derie own the material he's made public? If so, current CGL authors couldn't have used the ideas contained therein, even if he hadn't made them public. If CGL does use pieces of his unpublished work then I'd think he'd speak up, as he did when exactly this situation arose with a few bits of the Corp Guide. If CGL owned the material then Mr. Derie would have had no legal right to make it public, correct?
I'm not saying this isn't a difficult situation for current SR writers, in fact it becomes all the more tragic that malfeasance at the top of the company led to all this turnover and organizational confusion.
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Oddly (or perhaps not) it keeps coming back to Bobbie Derie. I still wouldn't have the big picture if I hadn't read the unpublished material he put out a while back concerning the backstory to DotA and the follow-on adventures he'd written a draft for.
Whew! I must have missed that one. Mind posting the link... pleeeze? ;)
Here is a link to the Dumpshock topic where Ancient History, i.e. Mr. Derie, posted about his unused drafts of material for the DotA follow-on and advanced magic book.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33195&hl=
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Oh man, that's awesome. Especially the Advanced Magic notes. It's basically Earthdawn magic in a pill, plus at least twice as many modern techniques.
What a shame that won't be printed... SR lost a lot potential here.
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What would really bring SR magic closer to ED magic is a metamagic technique similar to the Durability talent from ED. Basically, take this technique and start getting extra health levels.
Imagine a Magic 12/Initiate 6 troll adept with a half dozen extra health boxes.
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Hah. I'd love that, as a player. But as a GM? Well, not all characters are Adepts. And why should i discriminate those? Adepts get enough goodies already, like clean +3IPs, and other powered stuff.
Blood Charms, Oaths, and minor Life magics would be better.
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Which, handily enough, that little document about advanced magic describes (a little bit, anyway).
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Yes, that's why i posted that. Haven't seen Durability there, though.
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Supernatural Toughness in Digital Grimoire.
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Heh. Thanks, Uncle Ancient. :)
A shame Magicians can't take that one... But balance-wise it's okay.
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Thanks, it's an interesting power may have to invest in a few levels sometime.
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Don't have that book, when did it release?
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It came out in November 08. You can get it at http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=58911 (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=58911) or http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2160 (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2160)
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By the way... Any clues as to why the series is so much occupied with the different times of day? (Dawn of the Artifacts, consisting of the volumes Dawn, Midnight, Darkest Hour, New Dawn, as well as the official name of the artifacts as mentioned in Midnight: the Keys of Dawn.) Is that just a (not-so-subtle) attempt to allude to Earthdawn, imitate the titles of the Twilight series, or is there more to it? ;)
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My guess - my hope - is that there's more to it, maybe introducing a new part of metaplot that has long term effects. I don't think CGL is out to introduce a risen Atlantis, but something in its own way as big. Consider who the players have been to date . . .
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It's literally just a naming gimmick to avoid having to use numbers while maintaining a logical progression - early in the planning process it was hoped that the campaign would be more "open" and GMs could run those four in any order, or as stand-alone adventures. The ending campaign book has changed since I withdrew my drafts, some details here (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33195).
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It's literally just a naming gimmick to avoid having to use numbers while maintaining a logical progression - early in the planning process it was hoped that the campaign would be more "open" and GMs could run those four in any order, or as stand-alone adventures. The ending campaign book has changed since I withdrew my drafts, some details here (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33195).
I mentioned it on other forums, but that wrap up is frigging awesome. I'm a fan of IEs though, and my players (after initially betraying her) have taken a shine to Frosty. One player even offered to act as her Charles Foster Ofdensen as the events of DotA unfold. With a good old fashioned immortal elf throw-down on the table that makes my job as GM that much easier. And the players get a chance to be the end of one of the long-lived pointy-eared meddlers I have so much fun tossing in my games.
The bit with the sea dragon sounds epic, and the druids in the London sewers are a great faction out of left field. John Dee is also creepy as hell, and I can't wait to introduce my players to him. The plot is linear, but that's rarely a problem when running a game. I tend to like a linear plot, because my players are always going to take some weird turn and it all balances out. Loose plots tend to be a mess to begin with, and then I have to sit down and work out a plan before I can sit down at the table and rework it in play. It's like doing the work twice.
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Great! Thanks a lot, AH, for providing this info!
I'm still wondering about the "New Dawn" - "Keys of Dawn" correlation, though. ;) But I guess nothing can be said about that yet without spoilers.