A B C D E | Magic 210(90) 120(70) 50(40) 10(10) 0 | Meta: Human 230(40) 190(55) 135(55) 80(45) 35 | Attr: Human 425(70) 355(70) 285(35) 250(35) 215 | Meta: Elf 225(65) 160(60) 100(65) 35 - | Attr: Elf 495(70) 425(70) 355(45) 310(25) 285 | Meta: Dwarf 215(75) 140(55) 85 - - | Attr: Dwarf 535(70) 465(70) 395(35) 360(40) 320 | Meta: Ork 225(75) 150(80) 70 - - | Attr: Ork 540(70) 470(70) 400(35) 365(35) 330 | Meta: Troll 240(100) 140 - - - | Attr: Troll 590(55) 535(70) 465(35) 430(35) 395 | Skills 477(150) 327(116) 211(62) 149(23) 126 | Res (¥) 225(88) 138(68) 70(45) 25(22) 3 |
Boosting Physical Attributes: | |
• (Bio) Suprathyroid Gland - +1; Ess: .7 • (Adept) Increased (Attribute) - +X; Power Points: R | • (Bio) Adrenaline pump - +1-3 (1d6 Turns); Ess: .75*R • (Spell) Increased (Attribute) - +X |
Body: | |
Agility: | |
• (Cyber) Cyberlimb - 3+ Custom; Ess: .45-1 / limb • (Cyber) Muscle Replacement - +1-4; Ess: .5*R | • (Bio) Muscle Toner - 1-4; Ess: .2*R • (Drug) P4MO (CFp182) - +1; Both: 1 Week |
Reaction: | |
• (Cyber) Reaction Enhancers - +1-3; Ess: .3*R • (Drug) Overdrive (CFp186) - +1; Both: (10-Bod)h | • (Drug) Betameth (CFp180) - +2, +1 Int; Both: (9-Bod)h • (Drug) Novacoke - +1; Both: (10-Bod)h |
Strength: | |
• (Cyber) Cyberlimb - 3+ Custom; Ess: .45-1 / limb • (Cyber) Muscle Replacement - +1-4; Ess: .5*R | • (Bio) Muscle Augmentation - 1-4; Ess: .2*R |
Boosting Mental Attributes: • (Spell) Increased (Attribute) - +X; Force: Current (Aug) Value | |
Will: | |
• (Drug) Hurlgh (CFp181) - +1; Both: (12-Bod)h | |
Logic: | |
• (Bio) Cerebral Booster - 1-3; Ess: .2*R | |
Intuition: | |
• (Bio) Cerebellum Booster (CFp118) - +1-2 Intuition; Ess: .2*R | • (Drug) Psyche - +1 Int; Psychological: (12-Bod)h |
Charisma: | |
• (Drug) Ex - +1; Both: (8-Bod)h | • (Drug) Red Mescaline (CFp182) - +1; Both: (18-Bod)h |
Boosting Derived Attributes: Initiative: (Base: (Rea) + (Int) +1d6) | |
• (Spell) Increased Reflexes - +1d6 /2 hits, +1 /hit, max 4d6 + 8+ • (Adept) Improved Reflexes - Max 4d6+ 3; Power Points: .5 + 1 /1d6 • (Cyber) Move-By-Wire (CFp84) - +1-3 Rea, +1d6+3-9 Ini; Ess: 3-5 • (Cyber) Wired Reflexes - +1-3 Rea +1-3d6; Ess: 2-5 | • (Bio) Synaptic Booster - +1-3 Rea +1-3d6; Ess: .5*R • (Bio) Boosted Reflexes (CFp118) - +1d6; Ess: 1 • (Gene) Synaptic Acceleration (CFp162) - +1, +1d6; Ess: .4 • (Drug) Cram - +1 Rea +1d6; Psychological, (12-Bod)h |
Close Combat | Decking | Fire Support | Infiltration | Magical | Negotiation | Techno- | Transport | |
Core Skills | Melee Weapon | Computer, Hacking, Electronic Warfare | Ranged Weapon | Locksmith, Palming, Sneaking | Assensing, Spellcasting Summoning | Con, Negotiation | Compiling, Registering Software | Pilot |
Aux. Skills | Gymnastics, Ranged Weapon, Running, Throwing | Cyber- combat, Hardware, Software | Con, Disguise, Ettiquette, Imperso- nation | Arcana, Astral Combat, Binding, Counterspelling | Ettiquette, Imperso- nation, Intimidation | Computer, Cybercombat, Elec Warfare, Hacking | Elec Warfare, Gunnery Navigation | |
Attr | Agi / Str | Logic | Agi | Agi | Magic | Charisma | Log/Will | Reaction |
Syn- ergy | Locksmith, Palming Sneaking | Demolitions, First Aid, Forgery Medicine | Locksmith, Palming Sneaking | Ranged Weapon | *Based on Drain Attribute | Instruction, Leadership | Demolitions, First Aid, Forgery Medicine |
Accuracy | Mental Limit | Physical Limit | Social Limit | |
Base | (Gear-based) | (2*Log+Int+Will)/3 | (2*Str+Body+Rea)/3 | (2*Cha+Wil+Ess)/3 |
Dice Pool | 2-10 | 11-28 | 29-55 | >55 |
Extra Limit | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |
Boosting Limits: • (Adept) Improved Potential (Men,Phys,Soc) - +1; PP: .5 • (Quality) Indomitable (Men,Phys,Soc) - +1; Karma: 8*r | |
Accuracy • (Gear) Laser Sight - +1 • (Gear) Long Barrel (HTp181) - +1 • (Gear) Personalized Grip (HTp182) - +1 • (Gear) SmartLink - +2 | Mental Limit • (Bio) Mnemonic Enhancer - +1-3; Ess: .1*r • (Drug) Deepweed - +1; Physiological: (6-Bod)h • (Drug) Psyche - +1; Psychological: (12-Bod)h |
Physical Limit • (Bio) Enhanced Articulation - +1; Ess: .3 • (Gene) Neo-EPO (CFp160) - +1; Ess: .2 | Social Limit • (Gear) Armored Clothing(R&Gp57) - +1-3 • (Bio) Tailored Pheromones - +1-3; Ess: .2*r • (Adept) Voice Control - +1-3; PP: .5*r • (Drug) Novacoke - +1; Both: (10-Bod)h |
500¥ Squatter Lifestyle 1000¥ Armor Jacket 250¥ - Chemical Protection I* | 300¥ Goggles(6) 25¥ - Image Link 150¥ Earbuds(3) | 350¥ Steyr TMP 120¥ 60x Regular Ammo 5¥ Spare Clip |
2500¥ Fake SIN† 200¥ Fake License (1:Conc. Carry) 10¥ 2x Cert Credstick, Standard | 100¥ Comm: Meta Link† 100¥ - Sim Module 70¥ - Trodes 50¥ - Subvocal Mic | 20¥ Backpack: Cheap (RFp254) 200¥ Survival Kit* 25¥ Flashlight* |
CA = Cutting Aces | CF = Chrome Flesh | CT = The Complete Trog | DT = Data Trails | FA = Forbidden Arcana |
GH3 = Gun H(e)aven 3 | HS = Howling Shadows | HT = Hard Targets | R5 = Rigger 5.0 | RF = Run Faster |
R&G = Run & Gun | SG = Street Grimoire | SSP = Shadow Spells | SS = Stolen Souls |
It's '2 Strength and 3 Body'
- Orcs’ 3 Strength and 2 Body are worth 70+ Karma and
- Trolls require the highest level of prioritization and have DOUBLE the cost of gear and lifestyle
For example, the conversion of 1 karma to 2K NuYen tells us that Resources: A is worth ~255 karma points, whereas optimal skill allocation makes Skills: A worth 477 karma, so generally Skills: A is more karma efficient than Resources: A.
Tall-stacks - Because character advancement in Shadowrun costs karma based on the new "Desired Rating", the same stats can generally be most efficiently achieved by starting with a few high values (tall stacks) rather than many moderate ones (wide stacks).
Ie, looking at the table below, to reach Reaction 5 Intuition 5, it's more karma efficient to Buy Reaction 5 (0 karma to raise to 5) Intuition 1 (10+15+20+25 = 70 karma to raise to 5) at character creation than it is to buy Reaction 3 (20+25 = 45 karma to raise to 5) Intuition 3 (45 more karma) with the same 4 Attribute points.
So, why not always just go Skills:A > Magic:B > Metatype: C > Attributes: D > Resources: E?
Another one to correct :
"Adepts are a solid choice, because when they initiate they gain both a Metamagic feat and a Power Point"
Pretty sure it's either one or the other per initiation, not both. Raising magic does give them an auto-Power Point, but as far as Initiation goes, I believe you have to chose.
And of course, if an adept wants to load up on qi foci (what else is he going to spend his money on?) he can have a little more than that.
For example, the conversion of 1 karma to 2K NuYen tells us that Resources: A is worth ~255 karma points, whereas optimal skill allocation makes Skills: A worth 477 karma, so generally Skills: A is more karma efficient than Resources: A.
So, why not always just go Skills:A > Magic:B > Metatype: C > Attributes: D > Resources: E?
That would be a hot mess of a character. Elf Face Shaman, maybe...? : )
The other advise really worth repeating is start with "E". (Hint, it's resources, magic, or metatype)
You mention "optimal skill allocation" what is that?
@Dwagonzhan
I understand what you are saying.
But that doesn't explain what "optimal" means in the general sense.
If I have 20 skill points is "optimal" 3 skills at 5(7) and 1 at 1(3)?
Or.. in other words is "optimal" = maximum number of skills at 5 with a specialization in each (for 6 points each) and the remaining points in a single skill as high as possible with specialization?
Likewise what is "optimal" stat placement?
Is it = maximum one stat, max - 1 in as many as possible, then everything left over in one stat?
20 skill points... 6(+2), 6(+2), 6 would yield the most Karma... which is what I believe the OP would call optimal
Four rating: 3 skills actually cost 48 Karma, not 24 Karma. But that is still less than 76. Actually, the most optimal way to spend 12 skill points is to get two rating: 6 skills, worth 84 Karma.
But this thread is not really about optimizing purely by Karma efficiency - it is about being aware of Karma efficiency, so that you can better balance it against other factors. For example, suppose you have 18 skill points. Getting three skills of 6 might be most optimal, Karma-wise, but suppose that two of them are your primary skills and the third is a supporting/tertiary skill. Dropping that third skill down to 4 lets you get specializations for the other two skills. So you balance that combination being worth 8 less Karma, versus a +2 to two important dice pools.
You are right that optimal karma expenditure isn't the end all of chargen.
For example there is also time efficiency.
Buying a specialization in chargen cost no time... after chargen, its one month downtime while you doing nothing else.
Which is why I sometimes go less than optimal in karma expenditure.
Time is money after all.
this thread is not really about optimizing purely by Karma efficiency - it is about being aware of Karma efficiency, so that you can better balance it against other factors.
the OP [n]ever advocated building a character totally according to those numbers...understanding this stuff is useful when generating a character, but by no means sufficient.
Limits are another place, I just made a new char that was a Mystic Adept Face Infiltrator and when I got done with everything I realized my Limits were terrible (5 social and 3 physical) and had to rearrange my stats so i could actually be good at Social and Physical tasks that I had plenty of skill points in (Sneaking for example).
You mention "optimal skill allocation" what is that?
Also, some of the math I don't understand, like how do you come by the various numbers you have for Attr E-->D? If one were to build a character with Attr E "optimally" you'd have tall stack in a couple of stats and the rest 1's, so when you increase to Attr D you'd be increasing 2 stats from 1 to 2 which would be only 20 points each (10 each), or one stat from 1 to 3 which would be 25 points. So the most you would lose going from D to E would be 25 yet the chart has all sorts of numbers in it? I must have missed something. Also, If you think about going from Human E to Human D how to you get the value for that? Consider that those Special Attr points could (and often are) used to raise Magic. So you might be moving you Magic from 4 to 6. That's 55 Karma cost. Whereas going from Edge 2 to 4 is 35. You have 45 listed. Did you average these values? Again you say "if allocated optimally" but don't define what that is.
Long winded thing about your Ork Sam here.. maybe too much ...With your breakdown of the Sam, I think you're making several assumptions. The purpose of that breakdown was to demonstrate how you combine your own personal knowledge and preferences (Magic, Resources, Metatype) with the math from the table (Skills and Attributes). If you always prioritize Attributes, cool! --Set that priority first. I agree with you about the dangers of over-skilling, and I've tried to outline them both in the skills section and this post. I wouldn't do Close Combat / Firearms for the skill group, though. You don't need three fighting skills at 5, just one at 6.
[spoiler]And the big problem is.. not to cast too much shade, but the idea that you "save 73 karma" by building your street sam with Attr D and Skills B completely throws out the window important considerations such as the fact that you can't raise any stats by more than 4 (with cyberware), and with 14 points in Attr you are going to be bad at absolutely everything outside of combat skills. Essentially your Ork (if built what I think you are calling optimally) will have 1 in everything except Bod, Str, and AGI. Whereas if you have Stats B you are going to be good at everything you need to be, perhaps really good AND be decent in the other skills. Because as people have pointed out, unless you are playing a solo game you need to be more a specialist than a JoAT. How are you going to build this Sam? You would probably put your 5 group in Unarmed or Firearms and use the other points for the other skills and then blow off everything else since you have no stats.
Having said that, most of my characters are made to be more versatile, but I still favor stats over skills every time, because stats are more costly to raise than skills and contribute to a wide range of skills all at once. Consider how far 1 AGI point goes for a Sam char. And even with a JoAT char as people point out in that other thread, good stats and 1 point of skill is much better (cost effective) than bad stats and a bunch of skills
[/spoiler]
Just wondering if it would make sense to break the magic column up by type (adept / full-mage or mysad / aspected)... if not, could maybe break that down in the magic section?)Column space is at a terrible premium there, but I can try to add a breakdown for Aspected and Technomancer karma equivalences in their sections of Magic soon.
Magic | Magician | Adept | Aspected | Techno |
A | 210 (90) | 160 (67) | ||
B | 120 (70) | 140 (83) | 145 (105) | 93 (64) |
C | 50 | 57 (47) | 40 (30) | 29 |
D | 10 | 10 | ||
E | - | - | - | - |
Trolls only get lifestyle cost doubled, check the Errata.
I almost forgot to say: THANK YOU, gargaM0NK! For breaking down the Karma/Char Gen so much. It has helped me with things in the campaign that my GM wants to start.
Great stuff yet again.
The only thing I might add is Raven mentor spirit for the fact it has 1.5 pp worth of powers for adepts, +2 con. Traceless walk is great for ultrasound sensors too, so there's that along with the voice control for the security.
It applies a -4 penalty to hearing-based perception. That might be what Myriad is referring to.Except that ultrasound in active mode isn't hearing based perception per se.
At the very least, sensors that use vibrations to pick up nearby motion would be at a severe disadvantage against someone with Traceless Walk
Shout-outs!« Last Edit: 2017-03-18, 20:19:51 by gargaM0NK »
- Shout-outs to emsquared and UmaroVI for their work on the pivotal SR4A math topic that inspired this one!
I feel like you're selling yourself a bit shortWell if that's true it's probably cuz I blocked a lot of that time period out of my mind... lot of heated discussions about dirty "optimizers" in those days. Hopefully things have improved.
course theres always the Ultrasonic noise generator that gives rating dice bonus to sneaking tests for 40xRatingIt applies a -4 penalty to hearing-based perception. That might be what Myriad is referring to.Except that ultrasound in active mode isn't hearing based perception per se.
At the very least, sensors that use vibrations to pick up nearby motion would be at a severe disadvantage against someone with Traceless Walk
It's bouncing ultrasonic waves off of solid objects to make an image.
Which is why it compensates visibility environmental effects and ignores lighting.
Yeah, you're not making noise by putting pressure on the floor-that doesn't mitigate vibrations bouncing off of you.
course theres always the Ultrasonic noise generator that gives rating dice bonus to sneaking tests for 40xRatingIt applies a -4 penalty to hearing-based perception. That might be what Myriad is referring to.Except that ultrasound in active mode isn't hearing based perception per se.
At the very least, sensors that use vibrations to pick up nearby motion would be at a severe disadvantage against someone with Traceless Walk
It's bouncing ultrasonic waves off of solid objects to make an image.
Which is why it compensates visibility environmental effects and ignores lighting.
Yeah, you're not making noise by putting pressure on the floor-that doesn't mitigate vibrations bouncing off of you.
8. Resources:
Since the cost of items in NuYen doesn't increase post-gen, many purchases can safely be postponed until after creation. That said though, the rules for buying hits on Availability are pretty harsh (a contact with Connection:6, Loyalty: 6 AND Black Market Pipeline can only find Avail: 5 or lower items for you without markup, and a face would need 48d6 [12] to acquire Avail:12 gear), so it may behoove you to acquire difficult-to-come-by items now (This is what makes Restricted Gear so good).
This is a fantastic break-down of the system that I'm definitely going to be referencing for some time. Thanks for putting so much work into this! That said, I do have one question so far:8. Resources:
Since the cost of items in NuYen doesn't increase post-gen, many purchases can safely be postponed until after creation. That said though, the rules for buying hits on Availability are pretty harsh (a contact with Connection:6, Loyalty: 6 AND Black Market Pipeline can only find Avail: 5 or lower items for you without markup, and a face would need 48d6 [12] to acquire Avail:12 gear), so it may behoove you to acquire difficult-to-come-by items now (This is what makes Restricted Gear so good).
I think you missed a step in your Availability calculations. My understanding, and how it's been ruled at my shop and the conventions I've attended, is that Availability (at least per Missions) is calculated through bought hits (for both purchaser and item as it's an opposed test), which makes it easy to eyeball what can be afforded. The Contact you listed would have 5 bought hits, as you listed, so they could purchase anything that gets 5 bought hits or less (baseline 20, arguably up to 23 depending on how you rule with rounding up vs. down). So, this being the case, a starting Contact of Connection 5, Loyalty 2 would be able to access Availability 12 gear (5 x 2 + 2).
You have peacemaker listed as providing cool resolve, but it gives 2 ranks of improved perception.Fixed.